This came up in our game last night.
9th level rogue/fighter has a ring of invisibility. He makes a 5-foot step and attacks a creature. Clearly the rogue gets sneak attack damage on the first attack, but since he loses invisibility, does he also get it on the second attack? RAW isn't exactly clear and since we were near the end of the session and it was late, it was ruled that no, the rogue doesn't get sneak attack damage on the second attack. Was it the right call?
Hyrum.
correct
the rouges victom doesn't get it's dex bonus back till it's next turn
Why do you say that? Once the rogue is no longer invisible, why doesn't the attacker get its dexterity bonus back immediately?
You were correct. Only the first attack is a sneak attack, the victim gets its Dex bonus back against each successive attack. I'm not sure where the concept that you only get your Dex bonus back on your turn came from, but it is not correct.
This is how I understand the rules, too, but I realize I don't actually have a good RAW source for this. Do you happen to know where it's spelled out, if anywhere?
the rouges victom doesn't get it's dex bonus back till it's next turnWhy do you say that? Once the rogue is no longer invisible, why doesn't the attacker get its dexterity bonus back immediately?My Bad, I was thinking flat footed. :~
wc
However, if he is flat-footed (say, if he was trying to open combat this way)it would be correct. The distinction is confusing...I think they should just be flat-footed against invisible guys, but I guess this is to keep a rogue from using his ring to devastate the boss with multiple sneak attacks per round.
Even if the target is flat-footed, the attacker would only benefit from sneak attack on the initial attack.
After all, after the attacker spends a standard action on that first attack, the surprise round likely ends. The only way the attacker would get more sneak attacks after that is if he won initiative and made a full attack against the target before they could act (or else met some other condition such as flanking with an ally).
You were correct. Only the first attack is a sneak attack, the victim gets its Dex bonus back against each successive attack. I'm not sure where the concept that you only get your Dex bonus back on your turn came from, but it is not correct.This is how I understand the rules, too, but I realize I don't actually have a good RAW source for this. Do you happen to know where it's spelled out, if anywhere?
The RAW doesn't state this explicitly, but the answer can be found combining two parts of the RAW:
Invisible +22*
*The defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC.
Read this as "While you are invisible, you get +2 to attack and the defender loses any DEX bonus to AC." Note that it does not say this lost DEX lasts for a whole round. It only says that the penalty to this one specific attack roll gets these modifiers.
The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature.
Note that it doesn't say "The spell ends at the end of the round when the subject attacks any creature.", it simply says "when". That means "right when".
So, with iterative attacks, the invisible rogue makes his first attack. He gets the benefit of being invisible on this attack, becaues he is invisible. The Invisibility effect ends "when the rogue makes this attack". Now the rogue makes his second iterative attack, but he is no longer invisible, and his opponent is no longer denied his DEX.
Even if the target is flat-footed, the attacker would only benefit from sneak attack on the initial attack.
After all, after the attacker spends a standard action on that first attack, the surprise round likely ends. The only way the attacker would get more sneak attacks after that is if he won initiative and made a full attack against the target before they could act (or else met some other condition such as flanking with an ally).
Don't assume the first time the rogue attacks is a surprise round. They might both have been surprised, or no surprise, in which case, the first time the rogue attacks is a normal round instead of a surprise round.
And if he wins initiative, as you correctly point out, he can full attack his flat-footed enemy.
Of course, being able to reach the enemy might be a challenge...
Don't assume the first time the rogue attacks is a surprise round. They might both have been surprised, or no surprise, in which case, the first time the rogue attacks is a normal round instead of a surprise round.
If they are both unaware of each other then there is no encounter. If only one is aware, then there is a surprise round. The only time there isn't a surprise round in an encounter is when everyone is aware (such as if the target had true seeing for example).
Don't assume the first time the rogue attacks is a surprise round. They might both have been surprised, or no surprise, in which case, the first time the rogue attacks is a normal round instead of a surprise round.If they are both unaware of each other then there is no encounter. If only one is aware, then there is a surprise round. The only time there isn't a surprise round in an encounter is when everyone is aware (such as if the target had true seeing for example).
Who said anything about both being unaware?
An orc sits in a room. A fighter who doesn't know the orc is there kicks down the door. The orc exclaims in surprise, "Holy Gruumsh! Where did you come from???" and the fighter shouts, also in surprise, "Ai Carumba! An orc!!!"
Both of them are, now, aware of each other and both of them are surprised. No surprise round.
If the orc had heard the fighter walking down the hallway, OR if the fighter had heard the orc grubmling about low salary and lack of dental, then whichever one heard the other will not be surprised and there will be a surprise round.
And if both of them heard each other, there is no surprise round.
I'm not sure about no surprise round, but regardless, if there is a surprise round (and thus flatfootedness), it's a single attack not iterative when coming out of invis. If it's not a surprise round, no flatfootedness, and only one attack with Dex denied.
So just one sneak attack, unless surprise round and initiative is won.
I though all combatants were flat-footed until they act in the round.
You are correct, barring a few odd cases like Uncanny Dodge.
Flat-Footed: "At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed."