I do too, I feel quite strongly that that a character should reap both the penalties AND the benefits of the score he chooses to assign his character.
the problem in my game is that our GM will go out of his way to put the low char character in a situation, but it would never occure to him to reward the high Char character, I can see it now, GM: "you wanna what"? player, " I want to make a diplomacy check to get my ale for half price"
GM "ok, roll, DC 50"
well folks, it's been a great discussion, but it's got to the point of folks endlessly repeating themselves so I'm gonna call it a night, y'all take care,
PS, as a non drinker I'd like to point out that after 10 beers most people have about a 5 charisma :)
So, would you make a halfling sorcerer with a 5 strength make a strength check every time he opened a door?
Lord of Admonition wrote:
really? coughing up blood after spell casting was "Role Playing" ?
James Risner wrote:
that could be part of the problem, we just switched to pathfinder from 3.5 about a year ago, maybe this is just carry over that will solve itself once we get more comfortable with the rules.
lol, I'd like to blame it on WoTC
Ahh, The Weapons Master, my third all time favorite character, with Raistlin Majere being tied with Tasslehoff Burrfoot for first. now Raistlin is an excellent example of min maxxing.
Ricca Adri' Thiakria wrote:
sorry, I'm tired tonight and I'm not sure that understand your post.
You seem to say that minmaxing is at least not cool, but go on to say that having weaknesses is good, wich leaves me somewhat confused, who has more glaring weaknesses than a min maxed character?
Can't argue with that, witch is why I said he should have the option, my high char characters never do.
on a side note, last time that happened my dwarf took an ax to the innkeeper, when the GM got PO'd I just said "Do you want me to play my Charisma or not"? never happened again :)
one thing I've found especially with Charisma, some Players tend to take what your character says to their character personally, so playing your charisma can be more difficult than it needs to.
Stefan Hill wrote:
actually, I like to think that some rules were left vague on purpose so that gamers could be creative and tweak till things suited them, the problem is players that abuse those rules to get an advantage, the rules lawyers.
I feel that pathfinder did a stupendous job on the rules, tight enough to keep players who are so inclined headed in the right direction, but not tight enough to bind, I do wish that the books were a little better indexed though, I constantly find myself flipping pages looking for something I saw earlier.
Also, the rules can be tightened up with simple house rules, if the GM doesn't want min maxing in his or her game all she has to do is say, BEFORE the player creates the Character, "House Rule, no more than 1 score below 10 and no more that one score above 17", or whatever the GM feels suits the campaign.
I've yet to meet a player who would have a problem with that, I certainly wouldn't.
it's not doing so and then punishing the character afterwards that I object to.
Hi all, was away for a bit :)
While I agree completely, I'd like to point out that this has to work both ways, if the inn charges the ugly foul temperd Cha-5 dwarf double because he's ugly and foul tempered, then the Cha- 20 Half orc sorcerer should have the option to pay half.
I suppose it comes down to both sides being mature enough to accept that there's a problem and figure out a way to deal with it, if I wasn't willing to accept the downside of the low ability scores, I wouldn't min max.
or, to put it as succinctly as possible, every silver lining has a cloud.
I'd like to thank everybody who posted, I'd like to reply to every post but my keyboard skills aren't that l33t :)I did read them all though.
I was a bit worried when I first posted that the topic might turn into a flame fest, I'm really glad it didn't, I think I have a handle on how to make things more fun from here on in though.
thanks again, y'all stay safe
Ahh, My bad, sorry I ranted at ya Sylvanite
Damian Magecraft wrote:
Method 2 sounds good, I'll definitely keep it in mind, maybe part of the problem is that with the point system is that we find it easier for players to make up their character at home and then submit them for GM's approval, I think next time we start I'll suggest we have a game session just to create characters like we used to, that used to be a lot of fun.
RPGs are a cooperative experience where a group works together to tell a story and play a game. If it's not fun, find a new group. If it is fun, work with your group to make it more fun for everyone. There is no right way to play, except what is the most fun for the group as a whole. You need to facilitate the DM and the other players having a good time, and they need to do the same for you. It's when this balance and compromise isn't struck that you start running towards a "wrong way" to play.
I Absolutely agree with you 100%
but why do you assume that the only way for the rest of the party to have fun is for me to play a nerfed character?
I personally bring a lot to the table, when a puzzle comes up the rest of the party looks at me, the room often rings with laughter over my characters social ineptitude, bottom line, I'm there to have fun.
But, too me part of having fun is playing a HERO, or a VILLAIN !!!!!
I want to play Drizzt, or wulfgar, or Artemis Enteri, I'm not interested in playing, hmm, can't remember his name, or maybe, hmm, nope, can't remember his either, why? because they were't heroes...
as I said before, different strokes for different folks...
Evil Lincoln wrote:
ahh, ok, no worries, we're having a great discussion with some excellent points and even a few solutions to the problem, wouldn't mind seeing your take on it too :)
I may do that, thing is, I'm ADD so my social skills aren't so good, I may just not play for a few months and see if the situation gets any better, my current character is very simple to play so one of the other players could manage it quite easily.
I'm also not one for going head to head with the GM, maybe not a good thing, if I was more willing to jump up and down and scream about the injustice of it all (figuratively speaking) this might have been solved years ago.
wow, Awesome Idea M8, I completely missed that in the rules, I am definitely going to try that, thanks RingTail, you da bomb :)
we don't role play shopping as it tends to take up so much time and then the players not shopping start talking about hockey or work and then the game dies till we get back to it, I think the assumption is that character went shopping and was or wasn't able to find what he wanted based on whether or not the GM feels he should have it.
well, I'm glad to see that some folks agree with me at least, I was beginning to think I was just being a whiner.
well the way it seems to work is that you can ask to buy pretty much anything and the GM decides if you can have it, so take + skills for instance, the conversation goes something like this:
Barb: can I buy a +4 str belt?
Thief: can I buy a +4 dex belt?
so when I took crafting feats to get around this is when time suddenly became "Of the Essence" so to speak
Now I DO appreciate that high scores can make the GM's job difficult, but I also appreciate that this is easy to balance with the corresponding low scores, the character dumped charisma? well then all the bandits are going to attack the jerk, or the town guard are going to lay a beating on him, teach him some respect.
dumped wisdom? well, bet the rest of the party wished his strength was lower after that charm person spell, or "Anybody seen the fighter"? "Not since that wizard cast maze on him"
Dumped Str? ray of enfeeblement is what? second lvl?
the list goes on.
I would truley LOVE to go back to rolling my Characters I find the point system kinda lame, but different strokes for different folks.
I accept that you don't have an answer to the question, to be honest I'm disappointed rather than irritated.
nope, he just refuses to give you the necessary time to craft the weapon.
"If you take the time to craft that the world will end and you'll fail in your quest".
EDIT: sorry pet peave of mine, missed the rest of the post.
a +3 long sword isn't much good to a barb who has 2 or 3 feats invested in the falchion for instance, and if the bad guy has a +3 falchion it's either large, small or changed to another weapon so the player can't use it.
who's power gaming? the discussion is min-maxing, my point is that a character who min-maxes takes some penalties to get some advantages, your point seems to be that you find min-maxxing distasteful.
witch makes the character personally offensive to you, not unplayable.
again, another non answer.
While I agree with most of what you say this is just wrong, getting the whole party thrown out of the the uber upscale in for grabbing the the barmaids rear was just one of the ways a low charisma has livened up role play in social situations, and pointing the entire party into a trap due to a badly thought out puzzle was fun to,they knew my character had a 7 inteligence :)
the problem is that most min maxxers tend to be power gamers, but a low Score can be a ton of fun IF you play it.
I'm not being sarcastic either, it is just my play style. I dislike playing characters that are substantially sub par in so many ways. 7 str= barely able to lift/climb/etc. as a mage, you eventually get ways around that provided you can use magic. 7 Wis= no common sense, no intuition, and no focus. 7 Cha= small animals would bark at you and children would cry and flee. Personally, I often have an 8 in one stat, and make the most of role playing it. It would be a nightmare trying to role play 3 7s like that, esp. 2 in mental stats.
I can't argue with any of your points, but I don't see how any of them make the character unplayable, Ant Haul is a first lvl spell, einstien walked around with his shoes untied witch can lead to tripping and hurting yourself, richard nixon was a complete jerk, both were rather succesful though.
these are the kind of answers that I get from our GM, no real answer at all.
Wild Card wrote:
if he used magic item inflation I wouldn't mind, he's very blunt about it, sorry, your strength is too high, you can't have a better weapon, and I don't care if the (insert other class here) has a +5 (insert weapon here)
sorry, I asumed it was a generic term, my bad.
when I say min-maxxing I mean a player who uses the point system to generate a character who is specialized to his class, for example, my last wizards starting ability scores with a 20 point buy were S-7 D-17 C-12 I-17 w-7 CH-7
when someone says "Optimizing" I tend to assume that they mean going through all the splat books and finding all the broken feats Ect. to make his character uber, guess we all have our foibles :)
I play arcane casters a fair amount and I'm perfectly happy with the current blast system, why? because as is I have a fair chance of surviving when the GM cast blasts on ME.
A blaster can be fairly effective in most campaigns, in some, like Council of Thieves witch has a lot of thieves (surprise surprise)who's high reflex saves/evasion/high touch AC's make blasting really tough.
add in a ton of tiny encounter areas and a blaster really has to pick and choose his spells to be effective, but when it all works, well, it's just sweet :)
just my take on it.
Hi All :)
I'm just wondering what the average take is on min-maxing.
At our table one of our GM's seems to feel that it's cheating, but when I ask him why he's so opposed he never comes up with any real answer.
Our second GM doesn't seem too opposed but punishes players for min-maxing by making magic Items unavailable, your barbarian has a 24 strength at 12th lvl? how much good does it do him if he only has a +2 weapon?
so what's your take? also, just for fun, note whether your a player or GM.
Well, now that we've heard from all the saints and the sinners, I'd like to point out the obvious.
Yes Paizo is creative company, but that has absolutely nothing at all whatsoever to do with this issue. They do what they do at Paizo for one reason and one reason only, to make money.
Someone at Paizo made an executive decision, took a calculated risk, and released the pdf's, that decision has made Paizo a mountain of money, over 2 grand at our table alone, the pdf's being the main reason we switched to PF.
Now unless the folks at Paizo are mentally challenged or incredibly naive they had to know that at least one copy would be leaked, and considering the quality of their product and the astuteness of their business acumen, I find both highly unlikely, and to piss and moan about it here is purely crying over spilled milk, after someone at Paizo made the decision to spill the milk.
So if someone shows up at your game with an illeagal pdf and you feel the burning need to pick up the phone and dial 1-800-rat-fink, then by all means do so, if your lucky, it might make you feel a little closer to sainthood, but that's all you'll accomplish. Now if you really want to make a difference, encourage them to buy now that they've tried.
I'm no expert, but it seems to me that almost all traits and racial substitution traits are back story related, not as a result of that particular races DNA so to speak.
Considering the above it makes sense to me that a half human could pick from one of 3 groups of racial traits, but not 2 or 3.
for instance, a half elf raised by elves might pick from the elven traits, while one raised by humans from the human traits, and one raised by half elves from the half elf list.
I Kinda chuckled when someone said Paizo should have hired lawyers go over the rules, they probably tried, but apparently the rules lawyers were all here :P
Hi All :)
I'm not sure if this is valid or just rules lawering so I thought I'd ask.
"Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which
If a character has the Point Blank Mastery feat he can use a Bow in melee without provoking AOO's, but he can't flank or threaten because he can't make a melee attack with his bow.
However, if the character had the improved unarmed strike feat wouldn't he be able to hold his bow in one hand and make a melee attack into any adjacent square in effect threatening them?
also, come to think of it, couldn't he just take a -4 to hit and use the bow itself as an improvised melee weapon? might be nearly as hard on the bow as the target, but the rule doesn't say the character has to make the attack to threaten, just be able to.
Paul Watson wrote:
your comparing apples and oranges, guantlets are designed to weild weapons with, cestus are designed to BE weapons wich is why you are considered armed while wearing a cestus, and unarmed while wearing a guantlet.
The example given for "precision based task" is opening a lock. Precision based ... would be scrimshaw, or lockpicking, or disabling a trap. Skills that require small fine finger control.
I think in no way is that going to apply to grappling or using a weapon in that hand. If they meant it to be that broad a penalty they would have just said -2 penalty on any task using that hand.
precision based task isn't covered in the rulebook as far as I can see, but it is certainly reasonable to asume it applies to any skill check or attack roll that requires manual dexderity, and if you're silly enough to think wielding a weapon or grappling aren't precision based tasks, well, I guess there's no point in trying to reason with you any more.
firstly: barehanded isn't a trip weapon, since you can't drop your bare hand to avoid being tripped as you can with a temple sword.
ohh, nice Idea, of course you'd have to spend a feat to be proficent with the cestus and a second for the temple sword, and I'm pretty sure the a –2 penalty on all precision-based tasks involving that hand would apply to wielding a weapon in the hand wearing the cestus and probably grapple checks as well.
the downsides would be the GP cost, the extra feat to use the cestus, the cestus's low damage, and the cestus is made of leather so you couldn't even make one of cold iron or mithril to bypass damage reduction, and your hand would be restricted, -2 on precision tasks, wich would probably include weapons wielded in the same hand as the cestus, and all combat manuvers using that hand.
the upside would be that you could do pirecing damage (about half as much as a singham) and couldn't be disarmed.
as for the final benifit you mentioned, well, the cestus is far less subtle than the bare hand the monk can fall back on, unless he has a cestus straped to it of course, and does much less damage.
any way you slice it the cestus is only going to be a great monk weapon if you GM adds house rules to make it so.
I don't disagree, it can indeed be used in a flurry of blows, as it is indeed a monk weapon, and like any other monk weapon the cestus's damage will replace the monks unarmed damage.
the real problem is the Amulet of Mighty Fists, it needs to be erratad so as not to stack with enhancment bonuses on unarmed strikes. as it is all the monk has to do is have the cleric cast (greater)magic weapon on one fist while wearing an amulet of mighty fists enchanted with melee weapon special abilities to stack the bonus, no cestus or guantlet required.
and if your GM has a heart of gold he/she might actualy let you do it.
Two benefits of the Cestus over the Temple Sword, is that it cannot be disarmed or dropped and the hand is still free to hold things.
True, three disadvantages of the cestus over the temple sword, it's not a trip weapon, it ties up your glove slot so you can't have, say, a glove of holding with a second temple sword in it, and it does less damage.
nice as it would be for the monk I doubt any competent GM would allow it.
Even if they were kind enough to allow the monk to Macflurry with the cestus in the first place the monk would still do the cestus's damage rather than his unarmed damage just like any other monk weapon, in wich case the monk would be much better off with a temple sword.
another question just occured to me.
lets say the party meets 2 goblins in a 5' wide corrider and the tumbler wants go through both of thier squares to get behind them. Does he have to roll tumble checks to avoid and AoO from the second goblin while tumbling throgh the first goblins square and vice versa?
or are those included in the dc for the "tumbling through an occupied square check" ?
My favorite class is always whatever I happen to be playing at the moment, this ones a dwarven monk with a 5 charisma and a red leather loincloth, last one was a 3.5 vannila fighter, next one will probably be a wizard.
the feat Nimble Moves lets one do so as well. I was trying to get around having to take it though, monks need more feets :)