Given the long life span of elves, do they have a longer infancy? Do they stay terrible 2 longer? Or do they age through childhood like a human, and then just live longer?
I ask because in my campaign I'm running I might end up with some half elf babies being born to some humans. And it seems like that would cause some worry for the parents, if there half elf kids took a lot longer to age. I really I hope they do age slower in that sense, because I could create some nice drama with that.
In-game, there's no real description of the elven life history, so you can make it up. You'd have to go look for information all the way back to the 2E Complete Book of Elves for that.
Now for a more complicated, real-world answer:
On the other hand, other species with long lifespans might quickly mature and then have multitudes of progeny, favoring a quantitative approach to reproduction. Many tree species take this approach.
There is also the energy tradeoff of having a long lifespan but having to care for young for an extended period of time. Because human babies are quite helpless, parents are required to give extensive parental care to them and spend years raising them. If you assume human maturity at age 16, approximately 20% of a human lifetime passes between birth and independence (with some variation based on healthcare, technology, and other factors). If you do that with elves, then the elven ages begin to make sense: starting adventurers are a bit over a century, their venerable age category is roughly triple that and averages a bit more.
Overall, I'd say elves follow the human example and require that full century to mature. There are repercussions to the idea that elves are growing physically mature in a human lifespan, such as how do you control the elven population when you have "kids" who are 16-20 that are having children. By the time an elf reaches adventuring age, that elf could have 5 generations of descendants already! This applies to a lesser extent for half-elves as well. Social customs can mitigate this, but in the end, keep things simple and assume that the elves need all that time to mature is my advice.
P.S. Driz'zt is a dark elf with less than a century of life prior to 4E and was considered a juvenile delinquent despite his prodigal skills in combat.
Since you're dealing with half-elves, note that the starting age for a human is 15 years base vs 20 for a half-elf. I'd say they grow up a little more slowly.
As for emotional/mental maturity, well, some people never grow up;p
Since you're dealing with half-elves, note that the starting age for a human is 15 years base vs 20 for a half-elf. I'd say they grow up a little more slowly.
As for emotional/mental maturity, well, some people never grow up;p
That's sort of what I was imaging as well. I see a young human mother knocked up by an elf, and left. Raising this half elf, having to go through longer periods of squalling child than other moms. Having your child lag behind the others in picking up the basics like speaking, and walking. That would be a lot of stress.
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I prefer to take what I call the Blue whale approach. A blue whale lives for 80-100 years but they achieve maturity in 2-5 years. I have always believed that elves reach physical maturity in the same span that a human does. However, because elves are extremely long lived they take longer to be considered an adult by their culture then a human does.
I take this approach for three reasons. One is that it opens the world up for lots of role playing ideas. It makes it possible to play a 16 or 17 year old elf who was raised in human society and so is considered an adult by his/her peers and functions in society as an adult. The second is that in my humble amateur opinion, there is no biological benefit to having an infancy or childhood that spans decades, in fact as I see it the idea invites extinction as you loose more infants or children to accident then you can replace. Finally, elves, despite being long lived, are often depicted as having what humans would term short attention spans. Thus elven children would have to mature physically in a relatively, to elves any way, short time in order for their parents to not get frustrated and pawn them off on someone else. Why do you think fey are always switching out human babies for their own? :)
Elves are born fully mature, duh.
The Elven mother carries a 130 lb, 6'5" "baby" in her womb for up to 12 months.
Elven vaginas are like hula-hoops, so the "baby" just kind of steps out of there when it's ready.
Some are Elves are even born wearing mithral chainmail.
I just accept it, for the sake of convenience, that elves are not interested in doing anything that might result in a baby until they are much older.
This topic was covered in second ed and in the Book of erotic fantasy but it's up to you as the DM.
The general consesnus is that the elves don't stay infants longer than say a human child but their society treats them very diffrent. They could be 70 or 80 yrs old and treated like a 18 or 19yr old ion todays society. Thye would be listened to but their judgement would be very carefully called into question. Whereas in theirs early 20's or so thye would simply be considered the ramblings of an per-pubesent child. Tolerated but not given hardly any weight.
Shadowrun also touched on this because orc maturity was considered an adult at 15.
Let us know what you decide.
Elves are born fully mature, duh.
The Elven mother carries a 130 lb, 6'5" "baby" in her womb for up to 12 months.
Elven vaginas are like hula-hoops, so the "baby" just kind of steps out of there when it's ready.
Some are Elves are even born wearing mithral chainmail.
Actually, if you want to go this route, the question would be "Do elves ever STOP being babies?"
I could make a really snarky comment about elves being babies, but I'm going to hold off.
IIRC, 4e explains it as elves maturing about the same rate as humans, then slowing waaaaaay down once they reach young adulthood.
That will work for my game. 100 year-old elves and 15 year-old humans starting out together as adventurers just makes things complicated.
"You don't know how the settlement came into being. You've heard stories, but you weren't around, yet."
"But I'm 135 years old! I should have heard of it."
Having the party around the same age makes it easier for everyone, IMHO.
Ah young people and their questions. Now an old guy like me wants to know, "Do Elven women spend 40 years in menopause?" If they do the suicide rate for middle aged elven men must be off the charts.
FOR THE FRAKKIN' WIN!!
Of course this is all completely opinion, but I agree with Lathiira. To me, it's implied that if an elf takes longer to reach adulthood, it also takes longer to reach the toddler, and juvenile stages. Again, that is completely my own opinion.
I prefer to take what I call the Blue whale approach. A blue whale lives for 80-100 years but they achieve maturity in 2-5 years. I have always believed that elves reach physical maturity in the same span that a human does. However, because elves are extremely long lived they take longer to be considered an adult by their culture then a human does.
Funny. When I started to read this, I thought you were going a different route. There is a saying I've heard, something like "It's a blue whale." It is usually used in response to an unanswerable question. The implied question is "Why do they call it a blue whale, if it's not blue?" (It's actually gray.)
The second is that in my humble amateur opinion, there is no biological benefit to having an infancy or childhood that spans decades, in fact as I see it the idea invites extinction as you loose more infants or children to accident then you can replace.
I've read that prolonged adolescent years are biologically advantageous. It allows for continued development (particularly in brain function) past what is required to maintain life. Some theories state that it is one of the reasons humans are the dominant species on earth.
For example, look at all the other mammals on the planet. They (theoretically) evolved from the same evolutionary branch as humans, and 99% of them are self-sufficient after a year or less.
In the Deed of Paksenarrion trilogy, when speaking of half-elves, they shouldn't have children before the age of 50, as it could be dangerous to the mother.
So, I figure that elves and half-elves mature at the same rate, or a bit slower than humans, but still aren't fully mature until the adult ages listed in the books.
So, 15 or so for humans, and I'd probably keep the 20 for half-elves, and then 30 to physically/emotionally mature (this number pulled out of thin air) and then 110 years to be a fully sexually matured adult for elves.
Yeah, I made this thread without considering the insulting term of baby being applied to a full grown elf, but I can't help but remember several of my friends take on Elves. One of them cherished his hair, so the GM had a guy cut it off as an act of Elf Racism. We had to find the guy get the hair back, and have someone cast mend on it before he would stop complaining.
Of course this is all completely opinion, but I agree with Lathiira. To me, it's implied that if an elf takes longer to reach adulthood, it also takes longer to reach the toddler, and juvenile stages. Again, that is completely my own opinion.
I based all that stuff off what I have learned of life history theory and population ecology, actually. Not my opinion but ecological theory. Thanks though!
The second is that in my humble amateur opinion, there is no biological benefit to having an infancy or childhood that spans decades, in fact as I see it the idea invites extinction as you loose more infants or children to accident then you can replace.
I've read that prolonged adolescent years are biologically advantageous. It allows for continued development (particularly in brain function) past what is required to maintain life. Some theories state that it is one of the reasons humans are the dominant species on earth.
Prolonged infancy/childhood does permit continued brain development, often helpful when young are born without many of the skills required of an adult (e.g. hunting skills). Also often coupled with races that have low fecundity, as prolonged parental care increases the chances of progeny reaching maturity.
All my science aside, I think sticking with the idea that elves have the same proportion of their lifespans as humans in each category works fine in a fantasy setting. It's a case of 'don't look under the hood until you have to'.
Ah young people and their questions. Now an old guy like me wants to know, "Do Elven women spend 40 years in menopause?" If they do the suicide rate for middle aged elven men must be off the charts.
Lolz
WHAT SICK MAN SENDS ALL THESE BABIES TO FIGHT ME?
WHAT SICK MAN SENDS ALL THESE BABIES TO FIGHT ME?
And if you kill an Elf, you're automatically labeled a "Baby Killer"
I haven't read the whole discussion, but I've always thought they had extended childhoods and adolescence but not infanthood. So a 5 year old elf would be like a 5 year old human. And a 20 year old elf would be like a 7 year old human. And a 80 year old elf would be like a 15 year old human. Or something. 90 year old babies, and 90 years of changing diapers and breast feeding would probably lead to extremely high suicide or at least infanticide numbers amongst elf populations. Hey maybe that's why their numbers are dwindling!
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I figure elves grow mentally and physically at slightly slower than humans from age 1-15 or so and then their growth slows way down. So a 35 year old elf would look much like an 18 year old human. Only when they are 100 years old or so do they truly loose the youthful look and gain that elven timelessness which they retain until they are really old when they relatively rapidly degrade.
Elves wouldn't be able to have children and would have much bigger issues with fertility.
Tasteless postnote
Do elven women have that time of the decade?
I figure elves grow mentally and physically at slightly slower than humans from age 1-15 or so and then their growth slows way down. So a 35 year old elf would look much like an 18 year old human. Only when they are 100 years old or so do they truly loose the youthful look and gain that elven timelessness which they retain until they are really old when they relatively rapidly degrade.
Elves wouldn't be able to have children and would have much bigger issues with fertility.
Tasteless postnote
Do elven women have that time of the decade?
I guess what I really hate is that Elves are Vulcans. Pointy ears, unemotional, live for freaking ever, sexless. Not all obviously, but the majority of the ones portrayed in popular fiction.
I guess what I really hate is that Elves are Vulcans. Pointy ears, unemotional, live for freaking ever, sexless. Not all obviously, but the majority of the ones portrayed in popular fiction.
So Vulcans are Space Elves?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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I like the idea that Elves take a lot longer to mature because it makes the idea of the Forlorn that much more creepy/tragic.
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in races of destiny, they mentioned half elves in an elf community, and how they develop up alot quicker than elvish children, but slightly slower than human children.
so elves stay in "pre-adult" status for longer, reasonably they'd be children longer. idk about "babies" per-se, but they are children longer
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I didn't read the rest of the posts because my eyes get glaze over when I look at walls of posts like that, but it was addressed in Races of the Wild back in 3.5. They mature like humans up until 15-20 years, and then the rest of the years up until 100+ are basically spent in school and living with various relatives, learning whatever they may need to know from each and every person in their extended family.
Part of a reason I could fathom is its more-so a cultural thing than a genetic one, consider many popular sources of fantasy literature regarding elves, they are always reputed to have amazingly long lifespans yet their populations rarely outnumber lets say...humans, despite the fact they live so much longer.
Reason I can fathom from all of this is this...
1.) Elves with their longer lifespans, tend to dwell in long lived cultures and ordinarily, do not tend to have a great number of offspring in their families when compared to lets say, humans and so forth. This may be simply the elven view of 'time', they live so long and perhaps arent in such a big rush to 'get it on' unlike humans and half-orcs, etc.
2.) I imagine Elven children taking longer to mature than humans do, but I'd wager elven babies (and other long-lived races such as Dwarves) take longer to 'grow up'. While I understand the whole insanity element of having to spend years changing diapers and so forth being a great toll on their parents - but I imagine the Elves and other similar long-lived races focusing on their young as a collective effort rather than an individual one (the whole family and/or nannies and so forth might pitch in). None more truer is this mentioned (albeit in a sinister way) with the Drow, my source being the Drow Of The Underdark 3.5 official D&D sourcebook, which use this system to raise their children although in their case its to pidgeon hole the kids into classes/castes rather than for the good of the family.
3.) On the issue of gestation of the pregnancy, I'd assume the usual 9 months is a fair assumption, given the races long lifespan, after all - half-orcs with their short lifespans arent born sooner than 9 months but they do grow up faster than humans do by a small margin.
4.) Elves are a long lived culture, as are Dwarves, both races and especially Dwarves put a great deal of emphesis on age equating to worth, wisdom and ones place in society. It could be that such adolescent elves/dwarves arent taken seriously though physically they seem mature, thats just because these races hold age in regard to the extent that it equates to wisdom.
5.) Elves arent emotionless vulcans, nor are Dwarves all drunk and vulgar - those are stereotypes. Dwarves in particular get along very well with humans (though that being said, relationships between the two are seldom and far and few between), whereas Elves now and then gravitate toward humans because their short lifespans make them seem to be bristling with enthusiasm and passion that Elves are attracted to (despite the fact the Elf knows it will outlive their human partner), it would not be uncommon for young Elves to perhaps have human partners, perhaps even several over their lifespans unless they somehow had the ability to help their partner live longer (somehow through magic or items, etc).
6.) If Elven/Dwarven babies stay babies for longer, something about how Elven/Dwarven society works must accomodate them doing this. Much as how we humans cope with children growing up at the rate they do (since its what we know and our parents knew, etc), to Elves and Dwarves their young's long periods of infancy may be perfectly natural to them and they may look upon humans and other short lifespan races children as 'growing up too fast' compared to their own.
7.) Undoubtedly, with Half-Elves to a human or elven mother, the children either grow up slowly or too fast (depending on which race they are born to), to the elven mother, partly this is because their child has part of the human drive and determination that comes from understanding our own age limitations, whereas to be born to a human mother, the child seems to take longer than others to catch up to the same degree of 'growth', which explains overall why Half-Elves feel they dont fit in anywhere. Too fast for one culture and too slow for the other, making friends would be difficult for them growing up in either culture and explains something of the Half-Elf mentality.
I didn't read the rest of the posts because my eyes get glaze over when I look at walls of posts like that, but it was addressed in Races of the Wild back in 3.5. They mature like humans up until 15-20 years, and then the rest of the years up until 100+ are basically spent in school and living with various relatives, learning whatever they may need to know from each and every person in their extended family.
This.
There is no "30 year old elves in diapers" thing going on. WotC made their official stance known in Races of the Wild... if you choose to use something else you can (and Paizo to my knowledge hasn't made a ruling for how it works for "their" elves), but to me WotC's description makes the most sense.
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I didn't read the rest of the posts because my eyes get glaze over when I look at walls of posts like that, but it was addressed in Races of the Wild back in 3.5. They mature like humans up until 15-20 years, and then the rest of the years up until 100+ are basically spent in school and living with various relatives, learning whatever they may need to know from each and every person in their extended family.This.
There is no "30 year old elves in diapers" thing going on. WotC made their official stance known in Races of the Wild... if you choose to use something else you can (and Paizo to my knowledge hasn't made a ruling for how it works for "their" elves), but to me WotC's description makes the most sense.
But Wotc also say half elves grow up faster than elves, so ???
half elves age at basically human rate (give or take a few years), and we know human growth rate...
i always assumed elves had a longer pregnancy time. like elephants.
I didn't read the rest of the posts because my eyes get glaze over when I look at walls of posts like that, but it was addressed in Races of the Wild back in 3.5. They mature like humans up until 15-20 years, and then the rest of the years up until 100+ are basically spent in school and living with various relatives, learning whatever they may need to know from each and every person in their extended family.This.
There is no "30 year old elves in diapers" thing going on. WotC made their official stance known in Races of the Wild... if you choose to use something else you can (and Paizo to my knowledge hasn't made a ruling for how it works for "their" elves), but to me WotC's description makes the most sense.
But Wotc also say half elves grow up faster than elves, so ???
half elves age at basically human rate (give or take a few years), and we know human growth rate...
i always assumed elves had a longer pregnancy time. like elephants.
I never said they haven't contradicted themselves... in my mind, that just means they grow up just as fast to age 15-20 and reach their "30s" within 50 years, whereas elves don't really ever reach that point.
In the BoEF, it talks about elves having longer pregnancies than humans, but not as long as you might think. It also says their fertility rate is something like 5%-9%... so not a lot of elven babies are born.
But hey, everyone should use whatever makes the most sense in their own worlds.
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I always thought of WOTC's stance as fairly reasonable. Their initial growth is only marginally slower than humans, but even though they hit adulthood biologically, they still have to work through societal adulthood. And, given how long-lived elves are, "what's the hurry?" is basically their national motto. Of course, also note that humans are listed as much faster learners than their longer lived counterparts (extra feat and skill points). So, while it might take a human 7-10 years to learn go from squire to soldier with martial weapon proficiencies, an elf may well take 20 or more for the same thing. If you delve into history, then the chasm widens. We (in the US) spend small parts of twelve years learning of our nations scant 250 year history. An elf hasn't even reached old age. If an elf is to learn of the great achievements or failures of his ancestors of people as a whole, already there is a lot further back to go. I (and thus not humans as a rule) thought it was cool to learn that my great great grandfather was an irish immigrant who lit lights on the city streets. That's all I know of him from over a hundred years ago. That was a scant four generations. What is four generations to an elf? A lot longer.
Genetically, the low birth-rate makes perfect sense and ties in well with any world history where elves fought humans or other short lived races. Humans can have 1000 fighters every 20 years. Elves get 1000 fighters every 100 years. Even if we assume the elven fighters are slightly superior (racial proficiencies), and they kill all thousand humans and only lose a hundred or so of their own, in a mere century, humans will outnumber elves 2-1.
Genetically, the low birth-rate makes perfect sense and ties in well with any world history where elves fought humans or other short lived races. Humans can have 1000 fighters every 20 years. Elves get 1000 fighters every 100 years. Even if we assume the elven fighters are slightly superior (racial proficiencies), and they kill all thousand humans and only lose a hundred or so of their own, in a mere century, humans will outnumber elves 2-1.
Elves aren't usually depicted as fighting among themselves, tho, not "currently" anyway. Humans, on the other hands, kill each other a lot.
Heeeeeeeeeeeey, maybe that's how the Elves want it?! That's how they keep our numbers down! They're stealthy, long-lived, and subtle. It would be easy for them to manipulate us! It's the elves fault humans are so violent. They're always tricking us into fighting each other.
Time for a crusade!
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Elves aren't usually depicted as fighting among themselves, tho, not "currently" anyway. Humans, on the other hands, kill each other a lot.
I would most humbly disagree. One of the most popular non-paizo campaigns talks of the Crown Wars; five multi-century wars that lead to the creation of the High Moors, the Drow, and the destruction of the kingdoms of Aryandaar, Thearyntaar, Eillur, and Syopiir. I understand that one example does not a standard set, however, it could also be that not many realms have taken the time to speak of the very long past of elves (or many non-humans for that matter).
I would most humbly disagree. One of the most popular non-paizo campaigns talks of the Crown Wars; five multi-century wars that lead to the creation of the High Moors, the Drow, and the destruction of the kingdoms of Aryandaar, Thearyntaar, Eillur, and Syopiir.
Elves aren't usually depicted as fighting among themselves, tho, not "currently" anyway. Humans, on the other hands, kill each other a lot.
Which is why I said, "currently." Elvish wars are almost always depicted as being in the distant past.
I have always played it similar to what WotC stated in "Races of the Wild". Elves grow up physically at a slightly slower pace than humans. Mentally they also grow up at about the same pace, but to truly grasp all concepts of what it means to be an elf and to fully understand one's elven heritage takes much, much longer so elven society only considers an elf adult when they reach 110.
This is similar to the way things worked in Victorian England, where the age of consent was 13, but you were not considered a proper adult until you turned 21 (irrespective of gender and class).
I'd say take a look at the PRPG random starting age. Check the minimum for elves (as if you rolled all 1's on the dice) and you probably have the equivalent maturity of a 17-18 year old human. 'Least that's how I would run with it if it ever came up.
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One thing to remember is that when you become an adult is much more a function of culture than it is a function of biology. During the early Middle Ages people were considered to be adults as soon as they could begin bearing children. An unmarried daughter who was the age of 15 or 16 was considered to be shameful and a drain on household resources. As lifespans increased so did the age that you were considered mature enough to take on adult responsibilities. Even in the 1800s you were considered a spinster or a menace to society if you were unmarried by the age of 25. Today's culture has an interesting range of ages when you are considered an adult, depending on which benchmark you use. You can take on the adult responsibilities of driving at age 16 in most places, you can vote and serve in the military at age 18, but you have to wait until you are 21 to consume alcohol. Depending on which benchmark you use you become an adult anywhere from age 16 to age 21, and all of those benchmarks are culturally, not biologically, based.
This seems to indicate that in Golarion elves do remain in childhood for decades.
Yes. But, this also creates a paradox. How does a "Forlorn" elven child survive their infancy?
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This seems to indicate that in Golarion elves do remain in childhood for decades.Yes. But, this also creates a paradox. How does a "Forlorn" elven child survive their infancy?
As I read it, it takes experience to become forlorn, an elf is neither born that way nor switches to forlorn as soon as a human friend dies, so that infancy probably turned her out "forlorn".
Furthermore, forlorn elves are more moody and melancholic then elves raised among their kind, but that is not the same as outright suicidal.