Not sure I understand the question.
Are you looking for ways for a PC to appear wealthy without actually being wealthy? Perhaps you could give us an example.
My first reaction is that I'm not sure feats and traits are the way to go, and that you'd want to look at things like expensive clothing and jewellry, or perhaps something like the Sleeves of Many Garments magic item to simulate having a wholw wardrobe of expensive clothing.
Also, I obviously know what you mean by feats and traits, but what are vanities in this context?
The Noble Scion feat is a way to express title and being well-connected, which tends to correspond with wealth. Other than that, most of the mechanical bits and bobs that would suggest it do actually increase wealth. Like The Steel Refrain and Lorewalker said, perhaps you can consider taking one of the traits that increases wealth and just spend it on not-quite-adventuring-related things, like expensive clothing or a strange pet.
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To look like you are rich, you need aristocratic skills. Appraise, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge (Nobility), Linguistics, Ride, Sense Motive.
Proper jewelry and clothes will help. As the Steel Refrain mentioned, sleeves of many garments helps, as it also deals with cleaning and mending. Living garments are also useful for the rich. Glamered armor or a hat of disguise also work. A Rod of Splendor gives you a place to hold parties as well as clothing.
Cantrips, or items that give you the effects of cantrips can make you appear more fashionable. Prestidigitation to give you a pleasant perfume. Dancing lights to ensure that everybody sees you.
Leadership will give you a retinue. If you don't want to deal with the hassles of living people, Haunted shoes will give you 1d4 unseen servants for three hours twice a day. Having magical effects to hold your glass or keep your skirt or coattails from touching the ground is impressive. 8th level casters can take the spirit ally feat to get a permanent unseen servant.
A circlet of persuasion makes you more convincing as you talk about your legendary ancestors.
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I should have been clearer for that I'm sorry. I am planning to run an urban adventure. So this would all be run form one city. In order to reflect a players "being rich" I would like to have traits, feats, vanities and rules that work is a situational way rather than just giving them gold or magic items that break the character wealth guidelines.
For example. Batman is the alter ego of Bruce Wayne. But he doesn't carry with him a billion dollars of equipment with him. Not ever asset he owns is able to be liquidated just for more gear. In this example I imagine him having the equipment appropriate to his level.
But he has other assets that come in handy in a situation basis, like a Batcave.
So in other words I'm looking for abstractions that simulate "being rich" rather than just giving out money. If this doesn't exist, thats fine. But maybe a third party publication or something I have over looked might have something that I would like.
and apologies for the vague beginning to the post.
Going to need some more clarification.
Are you trying to make others think you're wealthy, even if you aren't? Buy a few shinies like jewelry or a noble's outfit, and put some ranks in Bluff.
Are you trying to create a wealthy character, but your starting gold is limited? This one is trickier, but I would say look into class archetypes that involve widespread influence, like the Demagogue bard. You could reskin it to represent the influence your name/family/organization has over a region, instead of your own little cult of personality.
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Going to need some more clarification.
Are you trying to make others think you're wealthy, even if you aren't? Buy a few shinies like jewelry or a noble's outfit, and put some ranks in Bluff.
Are you trying to create a wealthy character, but your starting gold is limited? This one is trickier, but I would say look into class archetypes that involve widespread influence, like the Demagogue bard. You could reskin it to represent the influence your name/family/organization has over a region, instead of your own little cult of personality.
This is more a campaign question than an player question.
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I should have been clearer for that I'm sorry. I am planning to run an urban adventure. So this would all be run form one city. In order to reflect a players "being rich" I would like to have traits, feats, vanities and rules that work is a situational way rather than just giving them gold or magic items that break the character wealth guidelines.
For example. Batman is the alter ego of Bruce Wayne. But he doesn't carry with him a billion dollars of equipment with him. Not ever asset he owns is able to be liquidated just for more gear. In this example I imagine him having the equipment appropriate to his level.
But he has other assets that come in handy in a situation basis, like a Batcave.
So in other words I'm looking for abstractions that simulate "being rich" rather than just giving out money. If this doesn't exist, thats fine. But maybe a third party publication or something I have over looked might have something that I would like.
and apologies for the vague beginning to the post.
You could simply give out estates. A plot of land that includes an income(usually spent on the upkeep of the estate and or upgrading its businesses such as farms), but that they may not sell without forfeiting their title, prestige, income and/or reputation.
You can use the Ultimate Campaign rules for building properties with this route.
To keep them from using the rules to become rich, you can state that they are only stewards of the land and not truly owners and thus the income does not go to them directly and is also taxed.
Could include a reputation system that tracks how well the upper crust sees them. Include manners, how well dressed, success of businesses, successful hunts... things of that nature for bonuses to social skills and encounters. Higher reputations can come with invites to better, more connected parties.
Let them have employees, and roleplay their interactions.
I believe Rich Parents should cover this.
This question is presumably for PFS so I don't think this would fly, but the character I am currently playing is the 3rd daughter of an extremely wealthy family of merchant dwarves who is actively prohibited by her religious order from spending more money than she is earning and to receive gifts that are unreciprocated or do not follow the proper ritual procedures.
The innate tension is that her family is privately displeased by her decision to join the clergy instead of being a bargaining chip in a politically advantageous arranged marriage, so would like to tempt her with fabulous riches to violate her vows to get this silliness over with.
So she's well dressed, well equipped, well spoken, well educated, but resents her access to fabulous riches and wants to prove she doesn't need them.
The key to being wealthy without actually having a lot of gold, I feel, is to provide some reason you can't or don't spend your way out of the situation.
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I believe Rich Parents should cover this.
That really doesn't and you can't really build on it. I can and more than likely will use it but I want more than just that, so as far as covering it falls short.
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This question is presumably for PFS so I don't think this would fly, but the character I am currently playing is the 3rd daughter of an extremely wealthy family of merchant dwarves who is actively prohibited by her religious order from spending more money than she is earning and to receive gifts that are unreciprocated or do not follow the proper ritual procedures.
The innate tension is that her family is privately displeased by her decision to join the clergy instead of being a bargaining chip in a politically advantageous arranged marriage, so would like to tempt her with fabulous riches to violate her vows to get this silliness over with.
So she's well dressed, well equipped, well spoken, well educated, but resents her access to fabulous riches and wants to prove she doesn't need them.
The key to being wealthy without actually having a lot of gold, I feel, is to provide some reason you can't or don't spend your way out of the situation.
This isn't for PFS at all. This is for a homebrew campaign that I am building. (I hope that this doesn't come off unappreciative)
Yes, give them a nice house with servants, etc. Belonging to the Family. Excellent food, nice clothes.
Sure, allow them to take Rich parents so they have a tiny edge in cash, but make it clear the Family doesnt support the adventuring life.
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Oh, I could suggest having the players watch a few episodes of Downton Abbey. To help set the mood.OK that's not a bad idea, but I'm looking for rewards rather than giving them homework.
heh I get that. But it just came to mind. I'm a huge fan of that show.
Honestly, your best bet for rewards is to make stuff up for them instead of using what already exists.
Wealth can be displayed in many ways. Maybe they can afford a great teacher(+1 skill point per level or a bonus feat)? Or have a valet(+2 to social skills for always looking nice)? Or property(something that allows them to make choices and interact with employees)? Maybe they hire a personal wizard or cleric(have access to certain spells or maybe gift a 0 or 1 level SLA)? Or they hire a bard to write a song about them and you can have it being played at taverns?
If you don't want to increase their power or their wealth... your best bet is to have it mostly be roleplay based. Certain people call them lord or sir, they can have hirelings(but not fit for combat and paid for by someone else), developable land, titles, privileges like access to invite only clubs...
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Oh, I could suggest having the players watch a few episodes of Downton Abbey. To help set the mood.OK that's not a bad idea, but I'm looking for rewards rather than giving them homework.heh I get that. But it just came to mind. I'm a huge fan of that show.
Honestly, your best bet for rewards is to make stuff up for them instead of using what already exists.
Wealth can be displayed in many ways. Maybe they can afford a great teacher(+1 skill point per level or a bonus feat)? Or have a valet(+2 to social skills for always looking nice)? Or property(something that allows them to make choices and interact with employees)? Maybe they hire a personal wizard or cleric(have access to certain spells or maybe gift a 0 or 1 level SLA)? Or they hire a bard to write a song about them and you can have it being played at taverns?
If you don't want to increase their power or their wealth... your best bet is to have it mostly be roleplay based. Certain people call them lord or sir, they can have hirelings(but not fit for combat and paid for by someone else), developable land, titles, privileges like access to invite only clubs...
I'm all for giving them some more situational power. But I don't want to blow the wealth curve. Things like bonuses to diplomacy, gather information and intimidate. I'm thinking that a side affect of fame would be a direct bonus to those skills.
Or perhaps the fame gives them access to research.
Think of it as having the opportunities and power of being rich without actually just giving them money.
Most characters are very rich in equipment by 10th level, but poor in other aspects generally. I am ok that the game doesn't simulate economy very well and I'm not looking for a rewrite of that. just a simple way of emulating temporal power that doesn't blow eveything up.
You could try giving them money they can't spend on equipment-- where they essentially have two different wealth pools. One is in gold, which they can spend on anything that has a price. The other is in some other currency ("influence" or some such) that works like gold but can't be spent on normal adventuring gear.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I'd just grant the PC the benefits of a wealthy or extravagant lifestyle for free:
Wealthy (100 gp/month): The PC has a sizable home or a nice suite of rooms in a fine inn. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 5 gp or less from his belongings in his home in 1d10 minutes, and need only track purchases of meals or taxes in excess of 10 gp.
Extravagant (1,000 gp/month): The PC lives in a mansion, castle, or other extravagant home—he might even own the building in question. This is the lifestyle of most aristocrats. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 25 gp or less from his belongings in his home in 1d10 minutes. He need only track purchases of meals or taxes in excess of 100 gp.
From the Cost of Living section of the CRB.
They may just be from rich families without direct access to family funds. They have fines cloth, maybe family crest on armor or horse dressing. Nothing that will change their mecanic but that may change how NPC deal with them.
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I'd just grant the PC the benefits of a wealthy or extravagant lifestyle for free:
From the Cost of Living section of the CRB.Wealthy (100 gp/month): The PC has a sizable home or a nice suite of rooms in a fine inn. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 5 gp or less from his belongings in his home in 1d10 minutes, and need only track purchases of meals or taxes in excess of 10 gp.
Extravagant (1,000 gp/month): The PC lives in a mansion, castle, or other extravagant home—he might even own the building in question. This is the lifestyle of most aristocrats. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 25 gp or less from his belongings in his home in 1d10 minutes. He need only track purchases of meals or taxes in excess of 100 gp.
I'm beginning to think about folding that into fame rewards. I like your idea.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/noble-scio n
Approve a "discretionary" fund the PC can only use for non-magic opulent things, like food,carriages, servants, etc. clarify that if the PCs find a way to abuse this they'll loose it all in a dramatic fire.
To me this seems more of a character background issue than a rules mechanic. The usual answer to this is to have the players be the younger children of a wealthy family. The family’s wealth is tied up in fixed assets like property and titles instead of being liquid. Also as the younger children they are not the heirs so don’t get the wealth. Usually the wealth and titles go to the oldest son instead of being equally distributed. Basically they can live at the family mansion, and seem wealthy, but still need to figure out how to pay for anything they want.
Batman is a terrible example. All of his gadgets are super expensive. The suit, the batmobile, all of it. ALso in the Dark Knight he sells off an entire company branch to set up the surveillance tech.
That being said, it's still a reasonnable model, minus the gadgets. Someone can easily own a lot of capital and still be low on liquidities and riddled in debt. Many goods are hard to resell or don't resell for good value. If the characters have feudal titles, these can come with perks without being monetizable. The rich parent idea can also be stretched for them to be beneficiaries of wealthy individuals without actually owning anything themselves.
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Batman is a terrible example. All of his gadgets are super expensive. The suit, the batmobile, all of it. ALso in the Dark Knight he sells off an entire company branch to set up the surveillance tech.
That being said, it's still a reasonnable model, minus the gadgets. Someone can easily own a lot of capital and still be low on liquidities and riddled in debt. Many goods are hard to resell or don't resell for good value. If the characters have feudal titles, these can come with perks without being monetizable. The rich parent idea can also be stretched for them to be beneficiaries of wealthy individuals without actually owning anything themselves.
Really by 10th Level most characters are wearing or carrying with them the economy of a whole town. It might not be a great example, but it got my message across. (and I'm not using a specific movie as an idea, but talking in generalities about his over all story.)
Any yes I can hand wave concepts at the table, but when I have mechanics at my players disposal, it gives them ideas and opportunities to try things. When things are vague ideas tend to stagnate.
Yes well in the same post I also later said it was a good example. ;)
Real estate and vehicles are two things that cost so much no PC would typically buy but that also display wealth pretty well without significant combat advantages.
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Approve a "discretionary" fund the PC can only use for non-magic opulent things, like food,carriages, servants, etc. clarify that if the PCs find a way to abuse this they'll loose it all in a dramatic fire.
I kind of like the idea of Ryic's idea of things in regards to wealth. I'm considering using the term "Fortune" rather than wealth. Character Wealth should be tracked for game balance, Fortune should be more abstract and allow you to handle/assist in Role play aspects of the game.
That really doesn't and you can't really build on it. I can and more than likely will use it but I want more than just that, so as far as covering it falls short.
If you are only looking at the "you gain 900 gp, have fun" part of it, yeah it doesn't.
But the trait is more than that:
You were born into a rich family, perhaps even the nobility
If you dont like the benefit of the feat, turn it into something else, like buildings created using the downtime rules:
Tavern
Create 22 Goods, 1 Influence, 22 Labor (910 gp / 455 gp to create)
Rooms 1 Bar, 1 Common Room, 1 Lavatory, 1 Office, 1 Storage
An eating or drinking establishment.
Temple
Create 28 Goods, 2 Influence, 29 Labor, 2 Magic (1,400 gp / 700 gp to create)
Rooms 1 Altar, 1 Bedroom, 1 Common Room, 1 Confessional, 1 Office, 1 Sanctum, 1 Statue, 1 Storage
A large place of worship dedicated to a deity.
Theater
Create 41 Goods, 2 Influence, 46 Labor (1,800 gp / 900 gp to create)
Rooms 1 Auditorium, 1 Lavatory, 1 Office, 1 Secret Room, 2 Storages, 1 Storefront
A venue for entertainment such as plays, operas, and concerts.
Create 132 Goods, 4 Influence, 120 Labor (5,160 gp / 2580 gp to create)
Rooms 1 Bar, 1 Bath, 4 Bedrooms, 1 Escape Route, 2 Furnishings (Bedroom and Sitting Room), 1 Kitchen, 1 Laundry, 1 Lavatory, 1 Lodging, 1 Office, 1 Secret Room, 2 Sitting Rooms, 1 Stall, 2 Storages
A huge manor housing a rich family and its servants.
All those come with enough people to make them work, like servants to take care of the mansion, or others unskilled workers that keep the business going.
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Yes well in the same post I also later said it was a good example. ;)
Real estate and vehicles are two things that cost so much no PC would typically buy but that also display wealth pretty well without significant combat advantages.
True, and this is what I'm sort of leaning to at the moment.
Trait: Middle Class Lifestyle By virtue of occupation or family fortune, the PC lives in his own apartment, small house, or similar location—this is the lifestyle of most trained or skilled experts or warriors. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 1 gp or less from his home in 1d10 minutes, and need not track purchases of common meals or taxes that cost 1 gp or less. Must be taken at first level.
Feat: Gentry Lifestyle
Prerequisite: 3rd level
Benefit: By virtue of occupation or family fortune, The PC has a sizable home or a nice suite of rooms in a fine inn. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 5 gp or less from his belongings in his home in 1d10 minutes, and need only track purchases of meals or taxes in excess of 10 gp.
Normal: Typical rules of cost of living apply
Feat: Noble Lifestyle
Prerequisite: 6th level, Feat: Gentry Lifestyle
Benefit: By virtue of occupation or family fortune, The PC lives in a mansion, castle, or other extravagant home—he might even own the building in question. This is the lifestyle of most aristocrats. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 25 gp or less from his belongings in his home in 1d10 minutes. He need only track purchases of meals or taxes in excess of 100 gp.
Normal: Typical rules of cost of living apply
Also considering, (maybe both)
Reputation and Fame:
Fame 1
Middle Class Lifestyle (3pp)
Fame 20
Gentry Lifestyle (10PP)
Fame 30
Noble Lifestyle 10PP Prerequisite: Gentry Lifestyle
Plus for every Fame level +2 to Charisma based checks in the sphere of influence.
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That really doesn't and you can't really build on it. I can and more than likely will use it but I want more than just that, so as far as covering it falls short.If you are only looking at the "you gain 900 gp, have fun" part of it, yeah it doesn't.
But the trait is more than that:
You were born into a rich family, perhaps even the nobilityIf you dont like the benefit of the feat, turn it into something else, like buildings created using the downtime rules:
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** spoiler omitted **All those come with enough people to make them work, like servants to take care of the mansion, or others unskilled workers that keep the business going.
And I like the idea of this system, but this is more of a characters working to build a fortune concept rather than already having one. I totally respect though were you are coming from, but I think I want to bypass this system for a more narrative concept of fortune.
But you do bring up a valid concept to build on. If they want to build on to their domiciles, as they are normal buildings only, they room building rules would be something to use.
Approve a "discretionary" fund the PC can only use for non-magic opulent things, like food,carriages, servants, etc. clarify that if the PCs find a way to abuse this they'll loose it all in a dramatic fire.I kind of like the idea of Ryic's idea of things in regards to wealth. I'm considering using the term "Fortune" rather than wealth. Character Wealth should be tracked for game balance, Fortune should be more abstract and allow you to handle/assist in Role play aspects of the game.
Actually, may be easier to provide a list of things they can have for "free," but can't sell. Carriages, nice inns, bribes less than X, etc. I'd be a little abstract on some of it, such as non-magic gear costing less than X. They'd still be limited by how much they can actually carry and what not.
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Actually, may be easier to provide a list of things they can have for "free," but can't sell. Carriages, nice inns, bribes less than X, etc. I'd be a little abstract on some of it, such as non-magic gear costing less than X. They'd still be limited by how much they can actually carry and what not.Approve a "discretionary" fund the PC can only use for non-magic opulent things, like food,carriages, servants, etc. clarify that if the PCs find a way to abuse this they'll loose it all in a dramatic fire.I kind of like the idea of Ryic's idea of things in regards to wealth. I'm considering using the term "Fortune" rather than wealth. Character Wealth should be tracked for game balance, Fortune should be more abstract and allow you to handle/assist in Role play aspects of the game.
Yep anything gotten through fortune could not be sold.
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There is a system they have in pathfinder society that you may find interesting
It is called Fame and prestige points.
Every adventure your character based on how they meet the adventure's goals earns one to two fame and prestige points.
Fame serves two functions. First your fame, from the number of points you have accumulated controls what gear your character has access to. For example Fame 5 500, Fame 9, 1500, Fame 13, 3000. This represents the total cost per item their faction is willing to locate for them to purchase. I don't think you will find the item restriction useful.
The second function represents thier "pull" in their faction. For every 10 points they have a +1 to their diplomacy score with their faction.
Prestige points represents their "accumulated favors" with their faction.
Prestige can be spent on gaining "free spellcasting services"....and another thing you can spend prestige points on is vanities.
you could own a business, or a manor or an island etc for spending prestige points.
Once prestige points are spent they are gone...and the only way to accumulate more is to adventure.
The player's factions could be the noble houses they belong to or serve.
Maybe it will be useful.
To look like you are rich, you need aristocratic skills. Appraise, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge (Nobility), Linguistics, Ride, Sense Motive.
Proper jewelry and clothes will help. As the Steel Refrain mentioned, sleeves of many garments helps, as it also deals with cleaning and mending. Living garments are also useful for the rich. Glamered armor or a hat of disguise also work. A Rod of Splendor gives you a place to hold parties as well as clothing.
Cantrips, or items that give you the effects of cantrips can make you appear more fashionable. Prestidigitation to give you a pleasant perfume. Dancing lights to ensure that everybody sees you.
Leadership will give you a retinue. If you don't want to deal with the hassles of living people, Haunted shoes will give you 1d4 unseen servants for three hours twice a day. Having magical effects to hold your glass or keep your skirt or coattails from touching the ground is impressive. 8th level casters can take the spirit ally feat to get a permanent unseen servant.
A circlet of persuasion makes you more convincing as you talk about your legendary ancestors.
This is really great stuff. Living garments I'm definitely going to get for my Chelaxian noble I'm running in Hell's Vengeance.
And I like the idea of this system, but this is more of a characters working to build a fortune concept rather than already having one. I totally respect though were you are coming from, but I think I want to bypass this system for a more narrative concept of fortune.
But you do bring up a valid concept to build on. If they want to build on to their domiciles, as they are normal buildings only, they room building rules would be something to use.
I thought this was to be used at character creation.
Then yes, the fame and reputation system is a better alternative.What i wouldnt like, personally, is that i cannot sell or trade my "fortune items" for something else of similar value. As a player (and gm, consequently), i would prefer if i knew how much my manor costs and how much i could sell it for, what is the market value of my horses and if i could buy a fancier carriage or not.
As GM, i would mix the Fame and Downtime systems together to obtain goods/labor/influence in town and let the players "earn" their own fortune.
I did something like this recently on a dark sun campaign. Players started from scratch and built their own house (prices are halved because only rooms made of wood is available) with a few rooms, got their own slaves (five of them), and built their reputation with their neighbors.
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OP,
What do you want your traits, feats, and vanities to do?
For example, do you want them to simulate being "above the law" and having "friends in high places" - that your nobles could have lower-class men imprisoned for mere insults or pull strings to get themselves out of legal trouble?
Or, do you want to give them higher leverage in the market place? For example, if they cannot initially find a particular expensive item for purchase, they have access to a second avenue as a means of purchase. Or even a system of favors where they could "borrow" a particularly valuable item (perhaps pro-rated) for a time?
...
Some feedback to your wealth feats from my personal experience:
I do not use traits or feats for beginning social class - I have PCs "choose" their social class by paying one month's cost of living out of their starting cash:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/gamemastering.html#cost-of- living
PCs who want to live the Extravagant lifestyle can take the Rich Parents trait to cover this initial cost, however (an exception to the general rule).
From there, you could create a series of feats that have the five social classes as Pre-requisites, and offer additional privileges (like some of the things I mentioned above), or perhaps if used in conjunction with the Prestige system, feats that subsidized certain costs and privileges. Maybe even a "pool" equal to Charisma modifier that allowed them to use proxy-prestige for certain effects you choose?
Anyhow, that's how I'd do it. Best!