Will rolled stats there is ALWAYS the chance of unbalanced attributes at the end of the day.And the more different attributes are used in one ability, the more unbalanced things can get.
If I couldn't break it with a 25 point buy, there are going to be few rolled stats that are going to bust it, and if you regularly play at that high a level where you get two 18's regularly and don't have all your other scores suck ... well, I doubt it'll make any difference.
As for monsters, most outsiders and monstrous humanoids (those that tend to have class levels and non-standard array of stats in addition) have the high dexterity and strength scores needed to break this. Devils in particular.
My remark was directed at the "adding dex to strength" idea.
The ones that already do awesome damage? To which a few points extra isn't going to make much difference you mean? And bear in mind it will take them 3 feats to achieve it. If you think they can spare them, then they deserve the extra damage.
Fact is that with 3 feats in cost, it's only worth it if you need that extra damage badly, which sums up the moderate-to-low strength fighting types and not much else. Yes, you can pimp out a pit-fiend with it, if you are prepared to drop some of his other feats in favour of making him slightly better at melee than with his other abilities.
If I couldn't break it with a 25 point buy, there are going to be few rolled stats that are going to bust it, and if you regularly play at that high a level where you get two 18's regularly and don't have all your other scores suck ... well, I doubt it'll make any difference.
I'm not saying you shouldn't use it if that's how you want it. Just that it can make a difference, and that there's no need to ignore it.
The ones that already do awesome damage? To which a few points extra isn't going to make much difference you mean?
If damage is irrelevant, why would you need to make up such a feat ?
It does make a difference. It's better than improved vital strike, improved cleave, or quicken fireball for a pit fiend. It also makes a barbed devil or such mid-level monsters more dangerous than normal.If a DM is okay with the additional work of reevaluating these CRs, then there's no problem.
If I couldn't break it with a 25 point buy, there are going to be few rolled stats that are going to bust it, and if you regularly play at that high a level where you get two 18's regularly and don't have all your other scores suck ... well, I doubt it'll make any difference.I'm not saying you shouldn't use it if that's how you want it. Just that it can make a difference, and that there's no need to ignore it.
I'm not ignoring it, but unfortunately I have no way of knowing what the dice will turn up. If a character has 18 in Strength, Dexterity and Constitution, he is going to deal out massive damage either way.
Now, unless he goes duelist, he can get +8 damage with this feat and a finesse weapon, while only +6 with a two-handed weapon. Sounds like a lot? Well, finesse weapons are almost universally one-handed, so you have 1d6+8 (11.5 average) against 2d6+6 (13 average). Even in a worst case scenario (Elven curve blade) it's 1d10+10 for the two-handed finesse weapon. That's only an average of 2.5 damage more than the two handed weapon, but it's cost four feats (Weapon Finesse, either Deadly Aim or Combat Expertise, then Improved Weapon Finesse, and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Elven curve blade)) to get just 2.5 points of extra damage. That's not broken, any way you look at it.
The high strength character just doesn't get that much out of this feat. For the less strong fighters, it's a godsend. If we're talking about dicing up characrters, what about the poor sod (usually me!) that gets no score above a 14? It can turn his fighter into something just about viable.
The ones that already do awesome damage? To which a few points extra isn't going to make much difference you mean?If damage is irrelevant, why would you need to make up such a feat ?
It does make a difference. It's better than improved vital strike, improved cleave, or quicken fireball for a pit fiend. It also makes a barbed devil or such mid-level monsters more dangerous than normal.
If a DM is okay with the additional work of reevaluating these CRs, then there's no problem.
It is? Bear in mind it only applies to their primary weapon in the amended form. So yes, his bite would get +9 damage, not every natural attack he has. He could take the Greater Weapon Finesse feat I also proposed, but that would only give your average pit fiend +4 to his secondary attacks, and it's yet another feat.
Now compare Improved Vital Strike vs Improved Weapon Finesse (my version): Bite = 4d6+13 so with Improved Vital Strike this goes to 12d6+13 as a standard action (so he can launch an attack on the move). That's almost as good as all his other attacks rolled into one. With Improved Weapon Finesse, it goes to 4d6+22. Nasty, but do you want to trade all those feats just for that one boosted attack when he could get +12 to his attack and +6 to all the others from just power attack?
unfortunately I have no way of knowing what the dice will turn up.
Well, something from 3 to 18.
It is? Bear in mind it only applies to their primary weapon in the amended form.
I did not bear that.
DUH Bears
Duh...
So long as Power Attack requires 13 strength, strength will never be a dump stat for melee characters.
Truposting.
You could also make it so strength penalties still apply to damage, even when the bonus comes from dex. That'd keep people from completely dumping it (and yeah, they're gonna want PA anyway).
I kind of like leaving PA and it's role (along with the need for *serious* melee-dedicated types) in combat alone.
:shrugs:
I think going the Deadly Aim mod is just ... too divergent overall, I guess. PA works, it's melee-centric, and dex-guys should NOT fully dump str (which will be likely to happen if they can get a PA-like effect elsewhere based off of dex req's).
after sometime reflecting while my office had a power outage, and I spent the time drawing stick figures. I was reminded of something that would happen in Iron Heroes, a system I found very interesting, although not my favorite system it was low magic (very low) me being a mage type I would not have been thrilled to play it but most of my players were combat melee types good system for them. Well long story short there was an ability you could start with called weapon bond that was worded so that with that one type of weapon you could use one stat of your choice in replacing STR for that weapon. this lead to the armoger who was almost all Con and a little dex, his class allowed him to ignore str for encumbrance as well, so STR almost vanished on him. This is what people fear happening, but just like the lights going out and people fretting over did we just lose a days worth of finance and accounting, it is will this happen, now then the Dragon was CR 19 pulled straight from the bestiary, it was being used for mostly ac and HP of a good CR 19 monster
As for the killing in one hit due to my stupidity they do a bit less damage as vital just ups the damage die not the str as well which was something that was in my head. Anyways the point is that with this difference the non two handers no longer kill the dragon, and die next round more than likely, while the two hander still might kill the dragon if not he dies next round just like the others.
I kind of like leaving PA and it's role (along with the need for *serious* melee-dedicated types) in combat alone.
:shrugs:
I think going the Deadly Aim mod is just ... too divergent overall, I guess. PA works, it's melee-centric, and dex-guys should NOT fully dump str (which will be likely to happen if they can get a PA-like effect elsewhere based off of dex req's).
Power Attack is still better than Deadly Aim, the former gives you bonus damage with off-hand weapons and with two-handed weapons, while the latter could be worded to apply to just a primary weapon and does nothing for 2-handed use.
It is? Bear in mind it only applies to their primary weapon in the amended form.I did not bear that.
That's unbearable ...
Seriously though, it's what limits the application to creatures with natural weapons because they often have multiple attacks. The only natural weapon to really get a kick out of this is the monk's unarmed strike ... although someone was able to use the Improved Weapon Finesse feat to make a monk that could match the fighter's damage output, I find it hard to consider that broken given that the monk has worse hit points, attack and AC.
Sorry if I wasn't clear, what I was suggesting with Deadly Aim was:
Deadly Aim (Combat)
You can make exceptionally deadly ranged attacks by pinpointing a foe’s weak spot, at the expense of making the attack less likely to succeed.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all ranged attack rolls (or attack rolls made that are modified by dexterity instead of strength, see below), to gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls that hit with these attacks. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
Special: You may apply this bonus damage to melee attacks made with Weapon Finesse, but not in combination with Power Attack.
And amending this to apply to primary weapon only as follows:
Special: You may apply this bonus damage to melee attacks made with Weapon Finesse with your primary weapon only, but not in combination with Power Attack.
With Deadly Aim as currently written you can indeed throw a weapon with each hand and gain the full benefit (and take the full penalty).
Sorry if I wasn't clear, what I was suggesting with Deadly Aim was:
Deadly Aim (Combat)
You can make exceptionally deadly ranged attacks by pinpointing a foe’s weak spot, at the expense of making the attack less likely to succeed.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all ranged attack rolls (or attack rolls made that are modified by dexterity instead of strength, see below), to gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls that hit with these attacks. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
Special: You may apply this bonus damage to melee attacks made with Weapon Finesse, but not in combination with Power Attack.And amending this to apply to primary weapon only as follows:
Special: You may apply this bonus damage to melee attacks made with Weapon Finesse with your primary weapon only, but not in combination with Power Attack.With Deadly Aim as currently written you can indeed throw a weapon with each hand and gain the full benefit (and take the full penalty).
Well ... 2 things:
1) This wasn't the way it was statted up initially - thus, where I was pointing it out. You just added the line now, and so NOW it addresses it, but it's not like that line was in place before (not that I recall anyway).2) This is one feat modifying several other feats and situations and circumstances, AND it mimics the function of another feat ... but not *really* in the end.
It's just too clunky, IMO.
Better to keep DA for range, and PA for melee and leave it at that, IMO.
End effect is the same, though for "agile fighter" guy: -1 feat to deal his melee damage. PA is *already* doing this, so why re-invent the wheel? Additionally, it's all about NOT making this build into "STR is a DUMP" stat isn't it? If you let DA overtake the function of PA in melee, then even feat-wise, there is NO reason not to drop str as low as possible. Sure, str penalties still factor in and lower it overall, but that is beside the point in this case.
One other thing - if that guy gets to use DA for his melee, he's *also* getting the benefit of being more lethal with his *at range* attacks as well ... which is not even REMOTELY the purpose of making an "agile fighter" viable with these feats.
Any other build would need to pick up BOTH PA and DA on their own to do this ... if you modify DA, then EVERY archer, even only needs to take this ONE feat to be good in melee AND archery.
I don't like that change more than everything else mentioned.
It's just a suggestion for those characters lacking the strength for Power Attack, and it's hardly reinventing the wheel as the feat already exists. As you say, most characters would use Power Attack anyway.
You do have a point though, that applying deadly aim would mean that they get the feat for both melee and missile ... maybe a bit too much.
Yeah, melee and missile damage enhancement should probably stay separate though combined it would make a heck of a feat for a Ranger. I just wrote a really long post illustrating how Dex based Druids and Monks who add Dex to damage with primary attacks would outclass their Str based peers. I've realized that there might be something I'm missing among all the posts though.
Would a flurrying monk (who attacks with his primary attack over and over) get the Dex bonus on all attacks? Similarly, would a Druid with two primary Slam attacks get the bonus on both attacks? That's how I'm interpreting it based on the talk of "primary" attacks. Please clarify for me since there's a lot of material on here.
The work on the monk has already been done assuming that the unarmed attack was the primary attack, and it worked out able to equal (but not exceed) the fighter in damage per round, and that was with a high-strength, high-dex Power Attacking build. Myself, I don't see that as broken as the monk is still behind in just about everything else combat-wise.
As for the wild-shaped druid, that's one I hadn't thought of, but I have problems seeing it as a problem. A Druid's primary attribute is Wisdom, and if they are planning on being a combat-shaper they will need decent physical stats as well as dexterity. Yes, they could concentrate on dex and get out some extra damage on it, but probably not much more than they could out of strength, and is +2-3 damage worth 3 feats?
I find it hard to consider that broken given that the monk has worse hit points, attack and AC.
I don't think it's broken either, but for a monk, this feat makes his AC match the fighters, at least.
Ok, I think you’re saying that the Monk would get the Dex bonus on his while flurry and the Druid would get it on all his “primary” attacks (Slam is primary, Tentacle is secondary). I haven’t really thought about Monk vs Fighter, but I don’t find that comparing different classes addresses my concerns.
I’ve seen a few comparisons on here for 15th level characters with 30 in one stat and 14 in the other, so I’ll go with that. Let’s imagine two PC druids who use wildshape to turn into elementals. This seems like a viable choice to me. Elementals might not be the kings of damage output or combat maneuvers, but they’re immune to crits, sneak attack, and bleed, and they have DR 5/-. One guy chooses Earth to pound out melee damage while the other chooses Fire because he’s channeling Beavis. As humans they’ll have 9 feats each. They can both craft bracers of armor +8 and holy vampiric construct bane amulets of mighty fists (we’ll assume +2d6 damage). Cloaks +5 are pretty cheap too. They both cast Greater Magic Fang daily on each hand/slam. Since both types of elementals are +4 Con the HP should be similar.
Druid Build Comparison
Earth elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +8 size bonus to your Strength, a –2 penalty on your Dexterity, a +4 size bonus to your Constitution, and a +6 natural armor bonus.
Fire elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +6 size bonus to your Dexterity, a +4 size bonus to your Constitution, and a +4 natural armor bonus.
Earth Druid - Feats – Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning, Power Attack, Natural Spell, Craft Wondrous Items, Improved Natural Attack (Slam), Weapon Focus (Slam), Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes
In earth elemental form: Str 38 Dex 12, BAB+11
Pre-Dex feat:
Init +5
AC 34 (+11 natural, +8 armor, +4 deflection, +1 Dex)
Slams +24 4d6+23+2d6 = 44 average, full attack = 88 damage
Fort +19 Ref+14 Will+20
Post-Dex feat:
The same
In fire elemental form: Str 14 Dex 36, BAB+11
Pre-Dex feat: (drops Lightning Reflexes for Weapon Finesse and Improved Init for random feat)
Init +13
AC 44 (+9 natural, +8 armor, +4 deflection, +13 Dex)
Slams +23 3d6+11+2d6 = 28.5 average, full attack = 57 damage
Fort +19 Ref+23 Will+20
Post-Dex feat: (drop random feat for Dex to damage)
Init +13
AC 44 (+9 natural, +8 armor, +4 deflection, +13 Dex)
Slams +23 3d6+24+2d6 = 41.5 average, full attack = 83 damage
Fort +19 Ref+23 Will+20
I’d say that the pre-dex to damage situation is fair and the post-dex situation is unfair. Granted, the Dex guy actually ends up 2.5 points behind on damage, but he has +8 Initiative, +10 AC (+12 touch), and +9 Reflex saves. The Str guy already spent the two feats he saved getting better at Initiative and Reflex saves. It seems like he’s just not as good as the Dex guy now. I guess the problem might come down to whether or not you think the 15.5 damage disparity in the pre-dex situation is equitable considering the improved Init, AC, and Ref. If not it seems like you could trade off some of your AC from magic items to buff damage a little.
If each guy dropped a level or two into Monk he could net +6 AC (AC40 or AC50?), Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, flurry, etc. With a Monk’s Robe his Huge unarmed strike damage would be 3d6 whether he’s an earth or fire elemental. Obviously you’d swap out the Weapon Focus (Slam) too.
Druid/Monk Comparison
Earth Flurry +22/+22/+17 for 3d6+23+2d6 = 40.5 average, full attack = 121.5 damage
Fire Flurry +21/+21/+16 for 3d6+24+2d6 = 41.5 average, full attack = 124.5 damage
These guys both seem pretty good at damage, but the Dex/Fire guy is worlds ahead in Initiative, AC (especially touch AC of 33), and Reflex save. He also incidentally has the Burn ability, which could be nice but has little to do with Dex vs Str. Air elementals can fly and are also Dex monsters. I figured the lack of +4 Con would obscure the 10 point delta in AC between it and the Earth form. Honestly +30hp is only about one hit at 15th level though, so I think the +10 AC is still superior. The Air guy would also get +4 Str, a nice benefit if Str and Dex stack for damage.
Monks are another class with finesse weapons which can do pretty good damage. Let’s consider two 15th level Monks. I played Monk several times in 3.5. My experience in PF is limited to a single level, but I’ll take a stab at statting a 15th level guy here. He’s probably got the obligatory Monk’s Robe, bracers +6, ring and amulet +4, but since I'm only comparing him against another Monk I haven't worked out what a reasonable AC would be(just the difference)
Monk/Monk Comparison
BAB +11
Base Fort +9 Ref +9 Will +9
Flurry (Base) +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3
Unarmed Strike 2d10 (with robe)
Monk AC Bonus +4 (with robe)
The High Str guy still needs a little Dex for AC, so let’s say he’s Str 26 Dex 20. The Dex guy dumps Str down to 14 and gets that Dex 30.
Str Flurry (with ki point) +21/+21/+21/+16/+16/+11/+11 2d10+8(x7) = 18x7 = 126 (not that you’ll hit with all 7 attacks much)
Dex Flurry (with Str+Dex) +23/+23/+23/+18/+18/+13/+13 2d10+12(x7) = 22x7 = 154 (slightly better chance to hit too)
He does less damage than the Dex guy and has a -5 AC and Reflex saves. Since the Dex guy doesn’t need to buy +Str he also might have more +Con than the Str guy. Even if the Str guy tries to take back the difference with feats he ends up -5 Initiative, -4 AC (after Dodge), and -2 on Reflex saves. None of these are huge differences, but he’s worse across the boards. A +1 CMD is about his only bright spot. He’s also up one additional feat if the Dex guy takes Agile Maneuvers to get +2 ahead of him in CMB.
On the other hand, if we take away Dex to damage the Dex guy looks more like this:
Dex Flurry (without Str+Dex) +23/+23/+23/+18/+18/+13/+13 2d10+2(x7) = 13x7 = 91 (slightly better chance to hit too)
Ok, that really is a bit below the Str guy’s damage output. It is only 5 damage less per hit, but it could add up against lower AC foes. Since the Dex guy doesn’t have to spend a feat on Dex to damage anymore he could get Power Attack:
Dex Flurry (with Power Attack) +20/+20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10 2d10+8(x7) = 19x7 = 133
That’s slightly better than Str guy, and if we can agree that a -1 to hit isn’t a huge deal in some situations then the Str+Dex guy actually ends up looking like:
Dex Flurry (with Power Attack) +20/+20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10 2d10+18(x7) = 29x7 = 203
Granted, he’ll rarely hit with the +10 attacks, but even a Fighter with a 4th attack might have a hard time connecting. Heck, the Monk can’t hit the fire druid above except on a 20, but hopefully not every monster is stepping up with AC 50.
A Str Paladin vs a Dex Paladin could probably be interesting too. I suspect TWF Paladin could be pretty useful even under the current rules due to smite evil. A finesse Paladin could probably make up for his loss of Str damage with offhand smites. He needs to have 19 Dex for GTWF anyhow, so going the high Dex route might be pretty appealing even without Dex to damage. TWF Rangers can also probably be decent against their favored enemy, but it is easier to find an evil foe than your favored enemy in many campaigns. Rangers also don’t need super high Dex for TWF though it is a definite nice to have for AC and saves (hooray evasion)
If Monks, Rogues, Paladins, and sometimes Rangers can be effective (especially relative to their same class peers) as high Dex warriors, I think that’s good evidence that Weapon Finesse is already “viable”. Even the fire elemental Druid without Dex damage would be "viable" IMO. The single finesse weapon Duelist might be where the real trouble is. Maybe the main gauche caught on because it was effective, but I agree there’s a place for character concepts which fight with a weapon in one hand and nothing in the other. I’ve seen an effective 3.5 Duelist, but he was using Robilar’s Gambit. I might take a stab at building a "viable" PF Duelist later. Maybe then I'll see why some of these new feats are being suggested.
I find it hard to consider that broken given that the monk has worse hit points, attack and AC.I don't think it's broken either, but for a monk, this feat makes his AC match the fighters, at least.
Don't you mean his damage output? It has no effect on AC.
@Devilkiller, there is a whole ream of controversy on monk/druids and what counts as unarmed attacks and what they can flurry with so I won't even go there. What I do pick out from the various druid builds is that the pure strength build seems to be dishing the most damage regardless. I don't get how this is broken. Oh, and it's not one feat the dex-monk has to drop, it's three for the system I suggested - Improved Weapon Finesse has two pre-req feats, Weapon Finesse and either Deadly Aim or Combat Expertise.
Dabbler, perhaps I put too much info in that post. Just to be clear I want to make sure we're comparing the right two end states for the druid:
Earth Elemental
Init +5
AC 34 (+11 natural, +8 armor, +4 deflection, +1 Dex)
Slams +24 4d6+23+2d6 = 44 average, full attack = 88 damage
Fort +19 Ref+14 Will+20
Fire Elemental (Post-Dex feat)
Init +13
AC 44 (+9 natural, +8 armor, +4 deflection, +13 Dex)
Slams +23 3d6+24+2d6 = 41.5 average, full attack = 83 damage
Fort +19 Ref+23 Will+20
What I do pick out from the various druid builds is that the pure strength build seems to be dishing the most damage regardless. I don't get how this is broken.
If you agree that the stats above are basically correct but think that a difference of 2.5 damage per attack (5 per round without Haste) makes up for the -10 AC, -8 Initiative, and -9 Reflex saves then I think we're bound to disagree on this issue as well as the relative value of damage vs other things.
Add in a couple of Monk levels and the big advantage in Reflex saves would be paired with Evasion. Actually, the Fire version of the Druid/Monk already outdamages the Earth version (with your Dex to damage) by a margin of 3 per round. I don't think there's anything unclear about a Monk in the form of a huge elemental using his huge unarmed strikes to flurry. I'm not familiar with the specific debate, but I'm not trying to flurry a Slam here, just using an unarmed strike sized up to Huge. Anyhow, even without the Monk levels the difference in damage is slighter than the difference in most other combat relevant stats.
Anyhow, it is time to actually go PLAY Pathfinder instead of just talking about it - Wuhoo!
hey guys so I finally got my self a copy of the campaign setting book. and I noticed a few things well really only one or two things.
One Elven Curved blade says nothing about weapon finesse, it does mention disarm bonus though, two 2d6 damage, three x3 multiplier.
Lastly seems all we have to worry about is someone two handing an aldori dueling sword d8 19-20/x2, rapier d6 18-20/x2, or scimitar d6 18-20/x2, so yeah one less thing in the equations. Just thought I would bring in that correction.
If you agree that the stats above are basically correct but think that a difference of 2.5 damage per attack (5 per round without Haste) makes up for the -10 AC, -8 Initiative, and -9 Reflex saves then I think we're bound to disagree on this issue as well as the relative value of damage vs other things.
What about the three feats it cost? Now if one druid is investing more heavily than the other feat-wise in dishing out damage in combat then they are bound to actually be better in combat. What if druid #1 took, say, Power Attack (to add +12 to their total to damage, peaking at 100), Improved Initiative (to get +4 to init), and so on? There's no real comparison if you make one character to be a combat monster with lots of feats and not the other.
As for attribute scores, Lord Twig came up with them for fighter builds. I'm not saying you cannot get them, but I have not seen them justified either. I'd rather take, say, a 25 point buy and then build up from there in a realistic design, even if it's min-maxed. For a druid, though, a decent wisdom starts the scores, all else is usually secondary. if he's going into a fight as a melee monster, he's then going to need decent hit points, so Con has to rank fairly highly, then strength and dex.
I'm not saying you can't make a lot using the system with wild shape and all, but I'd like to point out that for a druid there are a lot of attributes he'd probably rather invest in and feats he'd rather use. If a druid wants to be a wild-shaping combat monster, he's going to do it one way or another.
If you want to convince me it's broken, do 2 druids with 25 point buy, and allocate the same number of combat feats apiece. It might be possible; it balances with combat characters using weapons because strength gets the x 1.5 from two handed use. I'd have to stop and look up which creatures got x1.5 for natural weapons and which didn't.
Ha! Man ... I just went in to look, actually *look* at the encumbrance rules ... and IF they had meaning, they would really, REALLY screw PC's big-time that went to dumping strength.
Now, just looking at some terms and conditions here's a quick run-down of what happens when you're hit with Encumbrance Rules (oddly enough - this is VERY easy stuff to find as it's all tabled-out ahead of time).
Three levels:
1) Light = no penalties at all.
2) Medium = (a)you lose on move rate/squares/whatever depending on your speed in the first place; (b) Max Dex Bonus to AC is reduced to +3 period (doesn't matter about armor training, etc - you're finding it hard to move around ... VERY hard); (c) Check Penalty is -3 (or whatever - it gets harder. Armor Training, in effect, is tossed out the window here, as the *worse* penalty is used when things are flat out too heavy for you).
**Note that in the case of Mr. Agility, losing out on Dex bonus maxing at +3 totally limits a LOT of armor choices.
**Note also that moving slower is kind of a bad idea for these character types - at least I'd think so.
**Check Penalties that can't be negated by Armor Training negate/hinder spell use.
3) Heavy = (a) loss of even MORE movement rate; (b) max dex drops to +1; (c) Check Penalty increases to -6.
Now, let's say you've got Mr. Agility using the "I don't need no stinkin' strength to get by!" He's a level 1 character and is using Dabbler's feats and the modified DA to get his bonus damage. We'll make him human, *just* for making the point and so he can start w/the 3 things needed to get his damage boon.
He's got a 7 in strength ... this means that anything OVER 23 lbs on his body WILL bump him into Medium encumbrance and (letting him get an 18 dex), his dex "boon" just got hit w/a -1 penalty (+3 max dex) to AC, and his skill checks will all be at a -3 for the weight (if applicable).
So ... let's look at "kit" options here and gear him up a bit.
Armor matters, so we start there.
Chain shirt (best light armor) = 25 lbs ... INSTANT Med encumbrance.
Studded Leather (next best) = 20 lbs ... only 3lbs of wiggle room here - not promising given a rapier ALONE weighs 2 lbs ... what's he going to do? Run around buck naked w/no clothes, no belt pouches, no weight in coins, no rations, no sleeping sacks ... yeah ... not getting far this guy.
Leather (next down) = 15 lbs ... at least now there's some room to work with. +2 AC, and +4 dex boon here.
If this kind of character concept want to even WORK, it is going to need *some* strength just to carry a *reasonable* level of expected gear that's kind of taken for granted. I mean ... the str 18 guy, by contrast, is going to out-damage and out-armor this guy, as well as out-gear him w/out thinking twice.
Str 18 has a 100 lbs weight tolerance.
Full Plate Armor (assuming he *could* afford it at level 1) AC = 8, and weight = 50 lbs. He's *only* at halfway to his weight tolerance and has already out-performed the dex-only guy.
Giving him a modes 12 on Dex, he'll have (if 2-handing) an AC of 9, and he's still got feats free to spend on what he wants. Say he want's to shore up some defense since, he's not using a shield, and isn't a dex-monkey - he picks up Dodge - and still has 2 more feats (again, assuming human here) to play with and has a starting AC of 20.
Point being, from the GET the str-only, or str-focused fighter is totally going to out-hit, AND out armor the crap out of the dex-guy.
Other point being - if someone's dumping Strength, those *easy* to reference weight charts are your best friend.
Last point - any "agility" build NEEDS to moderate str against weight limits ... and the GM NEEDS to look after and enforce this, or the str-dump WILL actually go unnoticed.
Observation: I think it's very odd that the Max Dex is an AC only thing ... if it's interfering in movement, then it should affect even saves and skill checks that are keyed off of Dex, IMO. I think this'll end up hitting the house rules for my games now that I've noticed it. It's a small thing to smack someone over the head for dumping str and then trying to run around in the game as though the weight you carry has no significance ... as a GM I see it as my obligation to point out and emphasize the weaknesses of the characters when/if they become relevant (ie: you don't look to a fighter to dispel magic effects ... likewise, you don't dump strength and then pick up even mundane equipment and expect it to 'not be important' in play. You freakin' DUMPED strength - you damn WELL better be ready to be the weakest thing in the game, baby! Note - under this house rule, Mr Agility will lose his reflex, initiative and all other boons everyone is worried about so far IF he dumps str and IF he's trying to act like it doesn't matter.
Yes, not a lot of people realise that even their wizard with a strength of 8 is actually struggling to carry his pack ...
Also something interesting to note. Think about how much money characters around 6th level and above are exchanging.
500 gold (in platinum) weighs 1 pound. That means if you sold something worth 2,000 gold and haven't had a chance to spend it yet you're packing an extra 4 pounds.
At 4th level, earlier tonight, we ran into a cache of 15k gold and silver (number of coins, not monetary value). Even with a bag of holding I, with the stuff we already picked up, we had to split 170 lbs of the stuff between my Fighter/Rogue and the extra brawny half-orc Druid. We're down two party members (there was some body swapping, and now the dwarf Spellblade is in the orc Sorcerer's body, the orc's in some random woman's body, both of them are now of the opposite gender, and both of them got cut off from us by the room that makes all of that happen, so it's just me, the Druid, and the Cleric) so the weight is a big deal. I shudder to think what would have happened if the three of us still together didn't have 16s and up for strength. We might have had to leave some of the loot there.
*shudder*
Even now, we have to dump our gear and worry about leaving it if we get into a fight now or most of us will be encumbered at least a little.
Magical wheelbarrow = Floating disc + permanency.
Our sacks are huge.
You know ... I'm totally house-ruling that the encumbrance "max dex" and probably the Armor based one, too will fully limit the impact of Dex bonuses upon ALL things it can affect.
*AC
*Ref. Saves
*Skill Checks
*To hit rolls (if Wpn. Finesse is used)
*Damage rolls (with this advanced Finesse feat concept being tossed around)
If I missed anything else ... add that on, too. ;-)
Again - one more reason in my games to NOT dump str. It's just carrying things out to the logical conclusion of being weak and looking at all the overlap of what dex does. If you're THAT weak and walkin' around encumbered, then expect to lose function off of that whole dex-thing you've invested so heavily in.
This is a good thing, I think.
You know ... I'm totally house-ruling that the encumbrance "max dex" and probably the Armor based one, too will fully limit the impact of Dex bonuses upon ALL things it can affect.
*AC
*Ref. Saves
*Skill Checks
*To hit rolls (if Wpn. Finesse is used)
*Damage rolls (with this advanced Finesse feat concept being tossed around)If I missed anything else ... add that on, too. ;-)
Again - one more reason in my games to NOT dump str. It's just carrying things out to the logical conclusion of being weak and looking at all the overlap of what dex does. If you're THAT weak and walkin' around encumbered, then expect to lose function off of that whole dex-thing you've invested so heavily in.
This is a good thing, I think.
I agree. I put in a limit on some things but this broad limit is much better.
Dabbler - I was just going with what I'd seen on the Str30 Dex14 thing. It isn't really that far off base though. A realistic stat out might be:
25 points = Str16 Dex14 Con14 Int10 Wis14 Chr10
20 points = Str16 Dex14 Con14 Int9 Wis14 Chr7
If he wanted to dump Int or Chr and or buy a stat bump book, the 25 point guy could probably hit the 30 without too much trouble. Even without all that you can still get a stat from 16 to 28 just with level bumps and a +6 item. The effects of dropping the 30 score to 28 aren't really that dramatic. The gap in Reflex saves and AC decreases by 1, and attack rolls go down by 1 all around. Damage output goes down by 1 per hit all around too. The exception on the damage would be if there's not a Dex to damage feat. In that case the Dex guy actually closes the gap by 1 damage per hit since his lowered Dex doesn't affect damage while the other guy's lowered Str does. This is interesting since it seems like the more reasonable you make the ability scores the less behind the Dex guy should be in damage per hit.
Also, I included feats in those druid builds, and Power Attack was on the list. The Earth/Str druid took:
Feats – Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning, Power Attack, Natural Spell, Craft Wondrous Items, Improved Natural Attack (Slam), Weapon Focus (Slam), Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes
The Fire/Dex Druid dropped Improved Initiative and Lightning Reflexes to get Weapon Finesse and a Dex to damage feat. I couldn't think of another feat beyond Improved Natural Attack which would ramp up the damage output more, but either build has some slack with feats like Augment Summoning and Craft Wondrous Items which are nice to have but not really crucial to being good at melee. Anyhow, I can't think of 3 feats which would appreciably close the gaps between the two builds.
All that aside, I'd argue that the Fire/Dex druid is a "viable" build even without the Dex to damage feat. He does less damage per hit than the Earth/Str guy. If you do the math he'd actually win a head to head fight almost every time though since he'd hit his lower AC buddy much more often. He'd also make his save against damaging spells more, and if you go the Druid/Monk route that might mean Evasion. Even without that the higher touch AC means he'll get hit with a lot less deadly stuff over the course of his career.
I also statted out some 15th level Paladins in my head, and the Weapon Finesse + TWF Paladin easily achieved attack bonuses and damage output similar to the TWF guy while smiting evil (which is the Paladin’s time to shine). The Dex Paladin’s AC was only a little better (2-3 points I think), but his touch AC and Reflex save were of course much better. From what I can see it looks like Druids, Monks, and Paladins are already “viable” with Weapon Finesse. Rogues practically specialize in Weapon Finesse and already do good damage overall.
That covers at least a third of the base classes, and some like Sor/Wiz might not be less applicable. I suppose a 15th level Sorcerer could turn into an elemental and try to Slam people though. It seems like he should have better things to do, but with Transformation active he might be a pretty nasty combatant. What I haven’t had time to look into yet is how far behind a Fighter with Weapon Finesse and TWF would be. I suspect that the bonus damage from Weapon Spec, Weapon Mastery, etc would help even things out a bit, but that damage is only about half of the Paladin’s smite evil, so it is possible the Str based TWF guy will be significantly ahead on damage. Even if so that should only make the question "How to make high Dex melee Fighters viable" instead of "How to make Weapon Finesse viable"
I actually agree that a single weapon finesse based fighter (other than the Monk) with no offhand attacks is well behind the curve on damage and possibly overall. The Duelist class seems intended as a fix for that, but it sounds like maybe the fix doesn't work very well. It might be nice if there were more options for that free hand besides unarmed strikes. The kung fu archetype of "one armed swordsman" comes to mind, and I wonder what interesting feats could be created to make such a character more playable without making him so good that guys with two arms really can't compete. I guess that's really a separate thread though.
I can see where you are coming from. My dex-to-damage feat requires Weapon Finesse and either Deadly Aim or Combat Expertise as pre-requisites, I felt the three feat requirement was quite acceptable for standard PCs, but I was thinking primarily of combat classes. In any event, three feats for a damage hike isn't too bad a price to pay.
Now with the stat scores, starting at 16, by 15th level you can boost to 19, and a belt will take that to 25. On the minus side, that druid build just sucks at spell-casting.
I'm going to do my own number crunching on TWF. I expect it to hite the damage somewhat but not by a huge amount, for a non-fighter it's going to be really feat intensive.
when I involve max dex I have always applied it to all dex based stuff, never even considered that it might only affect ac to be honest.
Also with this point about encumbering the party, I may have to start bringing those rules in, although I hate having to keep track of the weight. As a player and as a GM.
Other thought a bit morbid though in past campaigns survival skill+ craft skill have lead to many interesting inventions such as the Drache intestinal rope, the ogre hide armor, and the Rib cage holding box fits on my floating disc and holds everything in. Some times my players worry me.
Especially when they used KN engineering to build a "dragon" from the dead bodies of the drache, using intestines for rope a pully system, the hides for the skin, teeth and bones, it was horrible, but still creative enough for me to allow it at the time.
Well, I have crunched the numbers on TWF, and definitely the dex bonus should be limited to the primary weapon or split between two weapons. This holds down the TWF build to a level of damage commensurate to the two-handed fighter, given the discrepancy between their chances to hit.
has anyone tried str + 1/2 dex on TWF? that's effectively split. maybe that could be for TWF only.
Now ... THIS I like ... I like this a LOT, actually.
*thumbs up*
has anyone tried str + 1/2 dex on TWF? that's effectively split. maybe that could be for TWF only.Now ... THIS I like ... I like this a LOT, actually.
*thumbs up*
Are we talking about adding or replacing with DEX now?
Ah, ok.
Hey Dabbler, how hinky does TWF make the "adding DEX+STR" option? Got any snapshot numbers? I'm lazy, since I'm mainly of the "replacement" camp.
Well ... to be more specific about *what* I like as I'm all for str+dex to dmg (as precision, only, though, BUT still applicable for multiplying effects, etc), is the idea of str+dex for the base, BUT only +1/2 base if TWF'ing.
What I *like* is the appeal of your combat style mattering as a side-effect/footnote/whatever of the basic "add dex to dmg" function of this feat.
I'd not be opposed to adding a bit of restrictions according to combat styles.
*1 weapon + free hand = full benefit.
*1 weapon + buckler/shield (not Tower) = full benefit
*2 weapons = 1/2 dex (ie: split between both weapons)
*wpn + shield TWF = NO dex to damage on shield at all, and still +1/2 dex. It's 2-wpn style, so concentration is split between weapons ... and "shield bashing" is NOT EVEN CLOSE to being a precise-type of weapon anyway.
*2-handers (my version at least) are already out of the running for this minus that lame frakkin' elven 2-handed weapon (I'm 99% positive it's a weapon ban and design of ANY weapon that will be banned out of hand).
Ah, ok.
Hey Dabbler, how hinky does TWF make the "adding DEX+STR" option? Got any snapshot numbers? I'm lazy, since I'm mainly of the "replacement" camp.
Well I found rapidly that allowing an extra feat to grant + 1/2 dex mod to the offhand weapon in damage was not such a hot idea. Although the greater outlay in feats kept the weapon damage down for lower level fighters, it quickly racked up so that by 10th level the discrepancy was larger than I would like by a long way.
For comparison:
1st level:
TWF going for Improved Weapon Finesse attacks +3/+3 for 1d6+2/1d6+2
TWF with a strength/dex split emphasis attacks +4/+4 for 1d6+4/1d6+4
THF in comparison attacks +6 for 2d6+6 or power attacks +5 for 2d6+9
The cost in feats means that a TWF fighter just isn't going to get both TWF and Improved Weapon Finesse at 1st level.
5th level:
TWF going with Improved Weapon Finesse attacks +9/+9 for 1d6+7/1d6+5
TWF with a strength/dex split emphasis attacks +9/+9 for 1d6+7/1d6+7 or power attacks at +7/+7 for 1d6+11/1d6+9
THF in comparison attacks +11 for 2d6+9 or power attacks +9 for 2d6+15
The big damager is the power attacking TWF with the str/dex emphasis, although their reduced to hit evens the odds somewhat with the two-handed fighter.
10th level:
TWF going with Improved Weapon Finesse and Greater Weapon Finesse attacks +17/+17/+12/+12 for 1d6+11/1d6+8 or power attacks +14/+14/+9/+9 for 1d6+17/1d6+11
TWF with a strength/dex split emphasis attacks +16/+16/+11/+11 for 1d6+8/1d6+8 or power attacks at +13/+13/+8/+8 for 1d6+14/1d6+11
THF in comparison attacks +19 for 2d6+11 or power attacks +16 for 2d6+20
Which is why I would get rid of the Greater Weapon Finesse feat I added in and rephrase the original feat somewhat. Two weapon fighting is clearly already a better combat option for dishing out heavy damage to a single target than two-handed fighting - but then it does require a greater feat investment as well.
I'm re-working the feat as follows:
Improved Weapon Finesse
Your well-aimed blows inflict additional damage.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise.
Benefit: When attacking with a finesse weapon you add your dexterity modifier to your damage in addition to other effects and bonuses. This is precision damage, and will not affect creatures immune to critical hits or sneak attacks, and only applies to a single primary weapon (note that all a monk’s unarmed strikes count as their primary weapon). If you have a secondary weapon (from two weapon fighting or multiple natural attacks) you add only half your dexterity modifier to each of your attacks. Note that armour can restrict the maximum dexterity modifier you may apply.
This would bring the Improved Weapon Finesse damage above to +17/+17/+12/+12 for 1d6+8/1d6+8 or power attacks +14/+14/+9/+9 for 1d6+14/1d6+11. It would creep up slightly above that of the strength-oriented build as both would have to keep incrementing dexterity rather than strength to qualify for Greater TWF, but not hugely so. These changes should also tone down the damage output from the wildshaped druid that was presented above. It's also pretty much what Speaker-in-Dreams has already stated, as it only applies to finesse weapons and I don't think any shields count as finesse weapons.
I'm not sure what your basis was, Dabbler, but could you hit me w/some stats?
I'd like to run something similar, BUT with my own 2-handed feats in place for a balance comparison given what I'm looking to do in my own game.
Since you already did the full dex/half dex #'s above, I just want to run some w/my 2-hander specific feats {I've got about 5 of 'em I think}.
My reason is that I'm looking at increasing the str multiplier at +8 and +16 bab (cementing the highest level of this as very particularly melee-kings only). Basically, I've got a feat that will add a flat +1 str bonus to all 2-handed attacks a character makes (net +2 str-like effect, but ONLY for damage purposes), a feat to make the 1.5x str multiplier increase to x2 (+8 bab req), and another to increase it to 2.5 (at +16).
So ... yeah. Things are being designed for my home-brew to keep 2-handers as THE kings of damage dealing. There *are* feats to do this, so there's a cost in a sense, BUT they have more feats overall compared to every other combat style really.
What's "str/dex split emphasis" by the way?