Going beyond individual character builds people like, what about constructions of adventuring parties?
I play with groups of six, and if I created the PC's Baldurs Gate style it would look like this.
Inquisitor- Specialised in archery.
Bard- Specialised in archery.
Paladin- Greatsword wielder with a horse.
Diviner Wizard- battlefield control and item crafting.
Oracle- Battle focus and Falchion user.
Rogue- Duel wielding whirlwind of damage.
Two archers to mow people down, tonnes of skills, big melee presence, lots of magic despite only two dedicated casters, and a wizard and crafter to glue the entire party together.
What about everyone else, how do you picture your perfect party?
My perfect party:
1) Fighter. In heavy armor.
2) Cleric. In heaviest armor he could wear.
3) Rogue.
4) Wizard.
Only once have I ever actually been in a party that had this composition (I was the thief, it was 2E, and it helped me to swear off thieves forever). Just about every other party I've been in includes people with 2-3 classes (prestige and base), we're all versatile but no one wears heavy armor (usually not even medium), AC is a problem, there is no front line, and so on. It'd be nice to see this thing happen again.
And to be honest, I'm as much part of the problem as anyone else. I just usually have 1 fewer classes than the next person (2 in the current party vs. 3 for the others; 1 in a party where 2 and 3 were the norm; etc.). It's just a strange concept to me, this 'iconic' party.
If 3.5 material is allowed, my high powered 'perfect' party would be
Druid - Divine caster and eventually 2 backup meleers
Summoner - Arcane Caster and a strong frontline fighter in the eidolon with summons for support and utilitiy
Cleric - All around useful, in and out of combat. A battle cleric is still one of the best ways to go in the game.
Beguiler - using my basic update of adding to it either the illusionist or enchanter wizard school powers. This would more or less fill the rogue role, but its got a sizable list of useful utility spells under it's belt as well.
Bard - Big party, lots of members (especially with the pets and summons) so you get alot out of the bard songs, and the jack of all trades can fill any holes.
Super Genius "Mighty" Godling - I just really like this class, and the mighty godling makes an excellent primary front liner.
If i was not going for high powered, it would probably look a little different.
Wizard - Conjurer, master of the battlefield
Cleric - Still important, as cleric is a good backup fighter when buffed, and hands down the best at puting the party back together after or during a fight.
Paladin - Using the UA Paladin of Freedom variant so they dont have quite as frustrating a moral code.
Beguiler - I'd still rather have an arcane caster then a rogue, but traps need to be found, and skills need to be had.
Ranger - Two weapon style, someone to back up the paladin in combat, but also bring some very useful skills to the table
Bard - Always great to have around, and they are very much the ultimate 'face' character which parties in my group often lack.
PF
Summoner
Paladin
Bard
Cleric
Rogue
Diviner
3.5
Warlock
Beguiler
Duskblade
Druid
Cleric
Wizard
Going beyond individual character builds people like, what about constructions of adventuring parties?
I play with groups of six, and if I created the PC's Baldurs Gate style it would look like this.Inquisitor- Specialised in archery.
Bard- Specialised in archery.
Paladin- Greatsword wielder with a horse.
Diviner Wizard- battlefield control and item crafting.
Oracle- Battle focus and Falchion user.
Rogue- Duel wielding whirlwind of damage.Two archers to mow people down, tonnes of skills, big melee presence, lots of magic despite only two dedicated casters, and a wizard and crafter to glue the entire party together.
What about everyone else, how do you picture your perfect party?
The 6 man Mariachi Band (spelling?)
1 bard illusion specialist1 bard enchantment specialist
2 bard/barbarian/disciples (wielding adamantine guitars)
2 bard/arcane archers
I don't know about perfect in the sense of optimized, but the party I really want play is Team Arcane Research - the all-wizard party. There would probably be significant multi-classing, but everyone would be primarily a wizard. We would solve all our problems through the use of intelligence and magic.
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My perfect party:
1) Fighter. In heavy armor.
2) Cleric. In heaviest armor he could wear.
3) Rogue.
4) Wizard.
This. I think I've been in such a party maybe once too. We have several people inclined to Multiclass in my group, so we never end up with the "iconic" setup either, however in my (somewhat limited) experience it proves to be just as diverse/adaptable as any other type of party, and is extremely fun to play.
Going a step further, I'd say Dwarf Fighter (Huge Axe/Plate), Human Cleric (Warhammer/Plate), Halfling Rogue (Leather/ Kukris or Short Swords /Shortbow) and Elven Wizard (Universalist / Quarterstaff / Crossbow). Big fun.
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I don't know about perfect in the sense of optimized, but the party I really want play is Team Arcane Research - the all-wizard party. There would probably be significant multi-classing, but everyone would be primarily a wizard. We would solve all our problems through the use of intelligence and magic.
I was going to chime in with something similar. My friends and I have often mused over the idea of "theme" parties like this. For example, a group of knight-errant paladins, all from different backgrounds (i.e. having taken 1-3 levels of other classes before joining the order.)
Another concept I loved for a more "fairy tale" style of game was that of traveling circus performers. You could have your "Strong Man" (Fighter, Barbarian, or Monk), "Animal-Tamer" (Ranger or Druid), "Acrobat" (Rogue, Monk, Bard), "Illusionist" (er, Illusionist. Or Bard), "Fortune-Teller/Seer" (Diviner, Cleric, Rogue, or Bard depending on if the fortune-telling is genuine or not), and "Ringmaster" (Bard), to name a few. It'd be great for episodic adventures, as the troupe would be forever on the move. You could do it as sort of a "Scooby-Doo" campaign with the carnival wagon as the "Mystery Machine" and the do-gooding characters constantly getting dragged into the mysteries and troubles of whatever town they happened to roll into that week. Combat would probably be far less frequent, and then you'd probably have to use some optional or home brew rules to compensate for the lack of armor and weapons, especially if you wanted to preserve the more light-hearted fairy-tale feel of the game.
One "theme" party a few of us did get to play in 3.5 was the "Masters of the Wild" (after the 3.0 class supplement)--a Druid, Ranger, and Barbarian. Our DM was running old "Isle of Dread" module and converting it on the fly. We didn't consciously make the party based on the module, but we got a couple of hours into the first session and had a "forehead slap" moment where we realized we had already "won" the adventure. All three characters trained in Survival, Tracking, Hold/Charm animal spells, Ranger with favored enemy of Animals...It was a thing of beauty. In the end, I really felt like my Barbarian was kind of the weak link.
Druid
Sorcerer
Rogue
Paladin
Between the druid and the paladin most status affects are handled. The sorcerer means less bookkeeping, and the paladin is death to evil things. The rogue is the utility guy, the nonmagical one.
My perfect party:
1) Fighter. In heavy armor.
2) Cleric. In heaviest armor he could wear.
3) Rogue.
4) Wizard.Only once have I ever actually been in a party that had this composition (I was the thief, it was 2E, and it helped me to swear off thieves forever). Just about every other party I've been in includes people with 2-3 classes (prestige and base), we're all versatile but no one wears heavy armor (usually not even medium), AC is a problem, there is no front line, and so on. It'd be nice to see this thing happen again.
And to be honest, I'm as much part of the problem as anyone else. I just usually have 1 fewer classes than the next person (2 in the current party vs. 3 for the others; 1 in a party where 2 and 3 were the norm; etc.). It's just a strange concept to me, this 'iconic' party.
You know, in terms of functionality and versatility, it's hard to beat the iconic, four-person party.
I sympathize with the "no heavy tank" thing. I myself have a hard time packing on heavy and sometimes even medium armor even as a dedicated fighter. For one, I like having 30 feet of movement in combat. Also, from a role-play perspective, one would probably not want more than a mail shirt or breastplate while trekking through rough wilderness and spelunking in caverns. In real life heavy armor is exactly that--heavy. And hot and uncomfortable. I realize that we're playing a fantasy game, but I also just kind of dig the image of a more lightly armored fighter skillfully avoiding and deflecting blows. The rules don't exactly support that too well, as the general assumption from day one with D&D has been that better armor and magic items are the most efficient ways of being harder to hit, but it doesn't stop me from trying sometimes.
How about a party of three?
witch, paladin, rogue
Quite frankly, the best thing about 3e as a whole is that you can have a four or five person party, and each person can make an entirely different character - or even the same type of character - and it can still more or less work out. Sure, there's an issue with a group of four fighters or four rogues, but in general, as long as you have <skill guy> <Caster guy> <Someone who can somehow heal>, you're good. They can even all be the same guy! Three warblades and an artificer!
Speaking strictly as a GM... I'd like to say that my optimal party is a 4-7 human beings that realize that role-playing means telling a cohesive and interesting story, not "how many bad guys (and of what type are they) are in the next encounter." I could care less if all five of my players want to play fighters, as long as they realize that role playing means some times you are sitting down in a tavern having a tankard and some SOB half-orc doesn't like the cut of your jib so he challenges you to an armwrestling match in front of his posse of bad-arses.
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Ever since being a member of an all-Necromancer guild in EverQuest (and several all-X super-groups in City of Heroes / Villains, such as the all Fire/Rad Controllers group Atomic Fire and the all Robotics Masterminds group MechaNation), I've grown to love the idea of theme groups.
An all Paladins group would rock, and if they were Paladins of different dieties, it could even add some variety and fun interplay.
An all Druid group is also a standard. Some can focus on Summoning, others on Wild Shape, maybe even one on primary casting.
Combinging different necromantic options could make for an interesting party. Use a Death Knight (from Secret College of Necromancy) or Unfailing (from the Scarred Lands) or Moon Wraith Adept (from Arcana: Societies of Magic) as your tank, a Dread Necromancer as your pet-monkey, a Cleric of some death-god(dess) as your healer and an Unearthed Arcana variant Necromancer (with Skeletal Minion replacing familiar) as backup, and you've got a fun undead-themed party.
A 'buff-stacker' group consisting of Archivist (w/Knowledge devotion and the appropriate spells from the Cleric / Druid lists, like Recitation and Mass Snake's Swiftness), Marshal, Bard and Dragon Shaman could be interesting, if their various buffs actually could stack effectively (too many morale bonuses, sadly). They'd be well-advised to pick up Leadership, tout suite, to massively multiply the effectiveness of their auras and stuff.
The best 'dungeon delve' group I ran in at GenCon, back in the day, had three Barbarians and a Cleric. Due to her heavy armor, the Cleric spent the entire gaming trying to catch up, and never got to cast a healing spell, as we ran Raging from encounter to encounter and just tore stuff up. We had fifteen minutes to complete the three encounters, and we finished in seven. Ah, Q'lys the Barbarian, how I miss you!
In a game that is set up to account for limited healing options (with a buffed up Heal skill, cheap alchemical healing salves, etc.) could have much fun with a four man all-Monk (all out to prove whose school's 'kung fu is better' and showing off their individual styles), all-Fighter (focused on different weapon types, or taking advantage of a very similar style and phalanx fighting / shield wall feats and techniques) or all-Rogue party (sneak attack-a-palooza).
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I love theme-based groups. We once ran a campaign with Dwarven Battle Ragers, 3 of us, and the cleric (forget what it was called). The cleric could get us in the berserker frenzy in one round, could heal us, and the 3 of us mowed down ANYTHING in our path.
Another good theme-based group I played in was a group of all rogues. I played a bard, we had a swashbuckler, an assassin/ninja, and a more traditional skillbased/lockpicker. We had a blast with that one too.
Right now, I am playing in a group that is all lvl 5, I am a palladin, we have a gnome ranger (bow), a druid, and a sorcerer. We have hard hitting heavy armored close combat, decent ranged, arcane caster, and druid utility. Its pretty strong.
I kinda like the commando strike-force myself: a stealthy group with each character able to operate independently if need be. Rather than 6 PCs, I'd be more inclined to go with 3 Gestalts:
1)- Pathfinderized™ Prestige Bard (wizard-based)/MC Rogue/Duelist
2)- Ranger/Cleric
3)- Barbarian/Pathfinderized™ Scout
Heavy arcane casting would be sacrificed, but a spell-preparation-based bard would be pretty darn flexible which is the overall goal.
For a non-Gestalt party, I might go with:
1)- MC Bard/Rogue
2)- Paladin
3)- Cleric
4)- Pathfinderized™ Scout
5)- Barbarian
6)- Wizard
For maximum power:
-Sword and Board TWF Paladin - Tanking/Self-Healing/Smiting
-Fighter TWF or 2H - Tanking/Damage output
-Rogue TWF/Archery - Utility/Damage output
-Bard Archery - Utility/Minor Damage/Buffs/Healing
-Cleric 2H/Archery - Healing/Buffs/Damage output
-Conjuration Wizard - Buffs/Battlefield control
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An all Paladins group would rock, and if they were Paladins of different dieties, it could even add some variety and fun interplay.
All Paladins of different deities + Leadership.
Yaisha, Hand of the Dawnflower : Healinghands! Set up a triage for the wounded, now! Purifiers, bolster the Silver Knights! Allow no ghoul to pass through!
Jebediah Grahm, Deadeye's Favored Shot : Farseers've spotted some flyers on the horizon! Damn pannangallans done been imported! Longshots, ready a volley and knock 'em down 'fore they get overhead.
Nailana Feinn, Shelyn's Beloved : Hotbloods, ready your spells to aid the Longshots should those things draw too close to the village! Consoliade, see to the townsfolk. We do not need them panicking in the streets!
Irya Pranjat, The Thousand Righteous Fists of Irori : I see the necromancers amidst the rabble out there. Silentstriders, come with me. We have to lock them down when the others strike their forces. I want no less than eight monks on each of those lunatics. Do not allow any of them to cast even one spell.
Sir Georik : Heaven's Legion! ENGAGE!
Even better if the PCs invest in uniforms for each of their groups. :D
Sebastian wrote:
4 bards and a commoner.I don't know. You probably want a little muscle in that group.
Better add a housecat.
I LOL'ed.
A themed group would be cool.
The Spanish Inquisition: Inquisitor, Paladin, and Cleric
Unleashed Arcana: Duskblade, Summoner, Bard and Wizard
Special Forces: Rogue, Cavalier, Fighter and Monk
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A Fire Bloodline Sorcerer
A Dwarven Cleric with the Earth Domain
A Rogue with the Wind Stance feat tree
A Monk Skirmisher built to get around the big guys
This is actually a possible group for me, depending on who plays in what game when we start over! :D
I would go for scary:
Barbarian: w/ decent charisma, maxing intimidate.
Rogue: Also intimidating, picking up shattered defenses
Bard: evil bastard who love the dirge of doom. Throw in some poisons for fun on some arrows.
Inquisitor: Cause nothing scares me more than a guy who knows all my weaknesses.
Elf Rogue/Barbarian/Duelist/Shadowdancer Stats would be S14/D16/Con12/Int18/Wis10/Cha10. Heavy Skirmisher probably having nimble moves and acrobatic step.
Half elf Rogue/Diviner/ Arcane Trickster -- Focused on both Int and Dex, feats would be for whatever looks fun at the time or odd. Nimble Moves would be a must while the skill focus would be perception with a familiar for alertness. Stats would be Str7/Dex16/Con14/Int18/Wis13/Cha7
Human Bard Dragon Disciple front line type -- possible leader. Stats would either be Str14/Dex10/Con12/Int10/Wis7/Cha20 or S16/D12/Con16/Int12/W7/cha14
Human Fighter Archer focused but probably with switch up capacity to two handed. Stats would be Str16/Dex16/Con14/Int7/Wis14/Cha9
Alternate for the elf would be a Half Orc two handed fighting Fighter/Rogue with veiled vileness and a focus on intimidation for shattered defense.
Alternate for the Human Fighter would be a Paladin with lots of Str and Cha mounted with quick draw to switch to a great sword.
Alternate for the Bard would be a Dwarven Monk
Alternate for the Arcane Trickster would be an Elven Wizard of some stripe.
As things stand ....
3.5
Fighter (tank)
Cleric (healer/secondary tank)
Wizard (Evocation)
Rogue/Bard Hybrid
Wizard (Divination)
Pathfinder *Cue the angelic choir*
Barbarian or Paladin
Witch
Rogue/Ranger Hybrid
Fighter (ranged)
Sorcerer (Fey Bloodline)
For me, in Pathfinder, I find a mobile tank is actually more useful than one designed to sit there and be a wall of AC, and while the Fighter can move great now, I find his small skill selection and vulnerability to non-CMB/CMD manuevers like Grease tend to send the Fighter down onto his ass faster than you can say "I've fallen and I can't get up." Barbarian is as agile and sturdy on his feet as a Rogue, Monk or Ranger, and Paladins on a Mount effectively have two sets of Hit-Points to burn through as well as height advantage from fighting on the saddle (when they can, at least) in addition to some of the best saves through their Divine Grace ability.
3 Fighters, a human, a half-elf and a half-orc. Collectively known as the bastards of Azoun.
Archer Bard
Archer Paladin
Conjurer Wizard (Battlefield Control)
Transmuter Wizard (Maneuverability specialist)
Keep the enemy at range and destroy :)
I've also often thought an all out stealth party would be interesting mixed with ranged attacks:
Inquisitor (archery)
Rogue (archery)
Ranger (ranged)
Arcane trickster
Maybe a 1 level dip into shadowdancer for the Rogue and Ranger for HiPS
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Hm... that's a tough question, as, for me, the perfect party is one who has stories and personalities that fit the background of the adventure we're playing.
Now that I got that out of my system...
I'd have to say...
Paladin, Bard, Summoner, Druid, Cleric, and... oh, Wizard (Conjurer).
Why?
Because you've got the best summoners in the game, covering the battlefield in monsters, and the best buffers in the game.
I don't know about you guys, but a field covered in Aura of Justice, Inspire Courage, Bless, Haste, Mass Bull's Strength, and maybe even Aura of Destruction from the Cleric, all on a good probably 10 summoned creatures? WIN.
I gotta say, this thread really has me wishing there was a NWN2(Storm of Zehir)/BG2/ToEE Pathfinder video game in which we could create our parties and have at it! :3
Temple of Elemental Evil was a great game! Pity Troika isn't around anymore, I'd love to see them do a deal with Paizo and make a Rise of the Runelords, or even better, Kingmaker.
Paladin
Cleric
Rogue
Druid
Wizard
Sorceror
Oracle or Cleric
Inquisitor
Fighter
Barbarian/Dragon Disciple (more Barb levels than DD, wears Mithril Breastplate)
Diviner or Witch
Either Fighter or Inquisitor would focus on Archery.
At least 1, if not 2, pole-arm users between Barb/Fighter/Inquisitor/[Cleric|Oracle].
Druid with leadership (Ranger)
Paladin
Dragon Shaman
Wizard
Psion
Rogue
That's my choice