Hard to tell, but my guess is yes.
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My search-fu is weak, so this looks like the best thread to ask the question: with the exception of CON, is it possible to take a stat negative due to ability score damage? (The victim would be unconscious in any case; it's just a matter of how hard it is to recover.) There seems to be nothing preventing going negative, but the language used ("A character with a Charisma score of 0...." vs. "A character with a Charisma score of 0 or less....") could be taken to imply that 0 is the bottom.
With ability score damage, it is not possible to take an ability score negative as damage does not reduce the actual ability score.
The only way to reduce your ability score is by draining it, which yes, if it hits 0, you will either become dead (CON) or unconscious (any other score).
Edit: Shoot, ninja’d by Jiggy.
How is ability drain less clear, though? It does say it lowers the ability score, so if the score becomes 0 (or below), you are dead or unconscious.
To flip it around, yes, you can take more ability damage than you have points in an ability, and would need to heal up to your ability score less 1 in damage to become conscious/mobile.
To flip it around, yes, you can take more ability damage than you have points in an ability, and would need to heal up to your ability score less 1 in damage to become conscious/mobile.
Oh, you are right, just looked it up again. If you do take ability damage, and it exceeds your ability score, you fall unconscious or die.
I had thought the distinction with your ability score not decreasing (with damage), your score could not reach 0 and therefore you could not become unconscious (die).
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With ability score damage, it is not possible to take an ability score negative as damage does not reduce the actual ability score.
The only way to reduce your ability score is by draining it, which yes, if it hits 0, you will either become dead (CON) or unconscious (any other score).
Edit: Shoot, ninja’d by Jiggy.
How is ability drain less clear, though? It does say it lowers the ability score, so if the score becomes 0 (or below), you are dead or unconscious.
AIUI now, the distinction is that ability damage doesn't change your actual ability, only your capacity for using it. That is, if you have a 13 STR and you're hit by a shadow, you take some amount of STR damage. Your STR is still 13 (so you don't lose your power attack feat), but due to penalties you're not able to use your STR to full effect (so you have penalties on attack and damage rolls, STR checks, and the like). It's possible to take more ability damage than you have points in an ability (except for CON).
OTOH, ability drain changes the actual ability. Since it's not clear from RAW whether it's possible to have a negative ability score, there is some confusion regarding whether ability drain can take you negative.
I think.
I had thought the distinction with your ability score not decreasing (with damage), your score could not reach 0 and therefore you could not become unconscious (die).
That is the case with Ability Score Penalties, which act like damage but can't effectively reduce you below 1 (i.e. to unconscious or dead).
Ok, I understand the differential between the three now (penalty, damage and drain).
I will say though ability damage is a bit misleading. The issue I have is it stating it “doesn’t reduce an ability”. I understand they are trying to get across taking ability damage does not affect feats, spell slots or other ability related requirements, but it does reduce your ability score where you still need to heal it, whether through magical or natural means.
I would prefer they just stated it reduced your ability, but this reduction does not impact ability requirements needed for feats or bonuses to spell slots.
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It's semantics. Ability score damage reduces the effect of your ability score in some ways, and the question is whether it's clearer to say "Ability score damage does not change your ability score, but applies penalties 1 to n to the effect of your ability score." or "Ability score damage reduces your ability score for the purposes of <functions 1 to n> but not for the purposes of <functions n+1 to x>." Because the number of possible applications for an ability score is large and may increase as the rules set grows, it seems to me to be better to go with the former (as the developers did). An example or two might have helped with the explanation, though.
but it does reduce your ability scoreExcept it doesn't. You just accrue some penalties. Why are you saying it reduces your ability score?
Nevermind, I understand what is being said now. But it is an extremely fine line between ‘reducing’ and ‘taking damage’, which is where the confusion originated.
Some can say it is semantics whether a number is being reduced or a minus (damage) is being assigned to it.
Edit: John understands where I am coming from.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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There are other differences, as well.
For instance, if I have a 14 and my score is reduced by 1, my modifier went down and I start taking penalties right away, while if I started at 15 then that 1-point reduction has no real effect until there's a second point of reduction.
But the way ability damage works, the first point never affects you at all, while every even-numbered point of damage always accrues a penalty, no matter whether your ability score is even or odd.
Curious if and how this ties in with the Temporary/Permanent increase discussion on another thread...only in reverse.
Hmm, this just came up in our group, and I never thought of it.
Target has 14 dex and the dodge feat and gets hit by a tanglefoot bag. He takes a dex penalty of -4, so RAW, his dodge feat is shut down. Right?
Near as I can tell only if he takes dex damage. Ability drain and penalties to abilities don't actually reduce the ability score.
Near as I can tell only if he takes dex damage. Ability drain and penalties to abilities don't actually reduce the ability score.It is the other way around. "Drain" permanently reduces the ability score, while "damage" does not.
Quite right, well spotted! i shall fire my editor right away...:)
Hmm, this just came up in our group, and I never thought of it.
Target has 14 dex and the dodge feat and gets hit by a tanglefoot bag. He takes a dex penalty of -4, so RAW, his dodge feat is shut down. Right?
Nope. Penalties don't actually lower your ability stat.
Nope. Penalties don't actually lower your ability stat.Hmm, this just came up in our group, and I never thought of it.
Target has 14 dex and the dodge feat and gets hit by a tanglefoot bag. He takes a dex penalty of -4, so RAW, his dodge feat is shut down. Right?
Though, if it were ability drain instead of damage it would disable the dodge feat.
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Though, if it were ability drain instead of damage it would disable the dodge feat.Nope. Penalties don't actually lower your ability stat.Hmm, this just came up in our group, and I never thought of it.
Target has 14 dex and the dodge feat and gets hit by a tanglefoot bag. He takes a dex penalty of -4, so RAW, his dodge feat is shut down. Right?
True, but ability drain is an actual reduction in your stat.