I recommend the latest episode of Flagons & Dragons podcast for those wanting to get a feel for these scrumptious rules.
Great! Thanks for the heads up. I already have Flagons & Dragons on my playlist, just hadn't caught up yet!
One item per district. Yes a district is one of those 36 square areas.
Hmm - that actually gives me an idea regarding the sale of magic items. Rather than the restriction of 1 per district, you could make it 1 + 1 per 36 blocks of buildings. That way, you don't actually have to fill city blocks in order to sell more items but you also can't get away with just making lots of mostly empty districts.
One item per district. Yes a district is one of those 36 square areas.Hmm - that actually gives me an idea regarding the sale of magic items. Rather than the restriction of 1 per district, you could make it 1 + 1 per 36 blocks of buildings. That way, you don't actually have to fill city blocks in order to sell more items but you also can't get away with just making lots of mostly empty districts.
Or, when your players do silly things like creating 7 districts, each with a brothel, just to sell items - say "No".
There's no reason to make up house rules to stop metagaming. Unless the house rule is: "No Metagaming".
One item per district. Yes a district is one of those 36 square areas.Hmm - that actually gives me an idea regarding the sale of magic items. Rather than the restriction of 1 per district, you could make it 1 + 1 per 36 blocks of buildings. That way, you don't actually have to fill city blocks in order to sell more items but you also can't get away with just making lots of mostly empty districts.Or, when your players do silly things like creating 7 districts, each with a brothel, just to sell items - say "No".
There's no reason to make up house rules to stop metagaming. Unless the house rule is: "No Metagaming".
While I completely agree with what you're saying, it's natural as a player to look at the rules and think "how can I get the most money out of this?". After all, wouldn't a king choose how to run his kingdom so that it's as successful as possible?
Players do this all the time with their characters so why not with their kingdoms?
Personally, I like tweaking the rules in such a way that eliminates the worst of the metagaming. That way, the players aren't tempted to try such things since they know ahead of time that it won't work.
My group hasn't got too far into kingdom building yet but I think I'll be changing how magic item sales are going to work anyway. At the moment, the static economy bonuses are probably the way I'm going to go. I'm just worried that it's going to hurt their bottom line too much and when it comes to affording armies, they won't be able to do it. I guess I'm just trying to figure out what those static bonuses should be to keep things fair.
one thought i did have was if you wanna sell magic items, roll 1 economy check
if you get X, you can sell one
if you get X+5, you can sell two
etc
cuts down on dice rolls too, and makes it more about the kingdoms 'statistics' rather than numbe rof districts
havent quite decided what X should be
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So the way I'm reading the rules for building your kingdom from the ground up is as follows
Turn/Month 1:
Upkeep Phase - Completely skipped
Improvement Phase
1. Select Leadership - who your people in charge will be.
2. Claim Hexes - this is where you claim your first hex for your first city if it's explored and 'pacified'.
3. Establish and Improve Cities - "Prepare land for city districts and then purchase new buildings for your kingdom’s cities." - so on your first "build" turn all you do is claim your hex for your city and clear the land for it, then in Turn/Month 2 you can actually build your first buildings? Or can we do both at the same time, i.e. prepare land and build buildings?
4. Build Roads - Can you only build roads in explored/cleared lands that you have claimed, or any hex? And how many hexes worth of roads can I build, just 1 - or if, for example, my city is built on the Stag Lord's fort can I complete a road all the way to Oleg's in 1 Turn/Month?
5. Establish Farmlands - pretty self-explanatory
6. Edicts - also self-explanatory
Income Phase - resolved as normal
Even Phase - also resolved as normal
As you can see its Improvement Phase, Step 3. Establish and Improve Cities that's giving me a bit of a hick-up. And if I missed how to begin your kingdom, could ya point me in the right direction?
3. Establish and Improve Cities - "Prepare land for city districts and then purchase new buildings for your kingdom’s cities." - so on your first "build" turn all you do is claim your hex for your city and clear the land for it, then in Turn/Month 2 you can actually build your first buildings? Or can we do both at the same time, i.e. prepare land and build buildings?
It depends on the type of land which you have claimed. The table on page 59 shows how long you must wait before buildings can be made.
Grasslands = build in the same turn
Hills = must wait until the next turn
Forest = must wait two turns
Swamp = must wait three turns
Mountain = must wait four turns
4. Build Roads - Can you only build roads in explored/cleared lands that you have claimed, or any hex? And how many hexes worth of roads can I build, just 1 - or if, for example, my city is built on the Stag Lord's fort can I complete a road all the way to Oleg's in 1 Turn/Month?
You can only build a road in one hex at a time. You can do so in any claimed hex (it doesn't have to be cleared).
As your kingdom gets larger, you can start building more roads per turn (as shown in the table on page 65).
I tried a search of the thread, and didn't find this, so I'm going to ask (if it was buried in somewhere, apologies, I'll find it on my detailed read/copy/paste/coallate for my Master Kingdom Adjucation Sheet).
So, two questions:
Can you take 10 on Kingdom checks? Econ, Stability, etc?
If you destroy a building, say to make space for a larger one (seeing this coming up in my Savage Tide game, using Kingmaker rules for Farshore and I can see a lot of piers going down to make room for a Waterfront), do you get any sort of BP back? Seems like there would be a lot of raw materials salvageable, especially in "upgrade" situations (pier - waterfront, etc.) At the same time, I can see some having a case for not (graveyard, dump). Does anyone think there would be a problem with coming up with a list of "deconstruction" refunds for the various buildings? Or would that be too exploitable? I can see how in a normal Kingdom building game, you could start from scratch and avoid "building congestion", but in a game where you "inherit" a city, its a little more awkward.
Answers/comments appreciated.
Creative Director
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I tried a search of the thread, and didn't find this, so I'm going to ask (if it was buried in somewhere, apologies, I'll find it on my detailed read/copy/paste/coallate for my Master Kingdom Adjucation Sheet).
So, two questions:
Can you take 10 on Kingdom checks? Econ, Stability, etc?
If you destroy a building, say to make space for a larger one (seeing this coming up in my Savage Tide game, using Kingmaker rules for Farshore and I can see a lot of piers going down to make room for a Waterfront), do you get any sort of BP back? Seems like there would be a lot of raw materials salvageable, especially in "upgrade" situations (pier - waterfront, etc.) At the same time, I can see some having a case for not (graveyard, dump). Does anyone think there would be a problem with coming up with a list of "deconstruction" refunds for the various buildings? Or would that be too exploitable? I can see how in a normal Kingdom building game, you could start from scratch and avoid "building congestion", but in a game where you "inherit" a city, its a little more awkward.
Answers/comments appreciated.
You can't take 10 on Kingdom checks.
If you destroy a building, you do not get any BP back.
Thank you, James, that is appreciated!
I may institute a houserule on the "resource recovery" bit. It strikes me as a little odd that you don't generate (or even potentially generate) unrest when you destroy a building, for whatever reason.
Perhaps a Loyalty or Stability check if a building is destroyed, or gain 1 unrest. Maybe 1 unrest per square in the district it occupies. Dismantling the cathedral has to ruffle some feathers.
But I may institute a 1/4 recovery effect, so a 8 BP building can have 2 BP recovered from it. Could also be used with events that destroy buildings as well. Maybe the previous check determines if the BP (which is of course more than just the lumber and stone of the building) is recoverable. And likely a stacking +2 to the DC of the check if more than one building is destroyed in a single turn.
Another house rule I am considering (if anyone cares to yoink or comment):
Because I have players that won't abuse the system but will ask "why/why not" regarding limitations: Multiple magic items can be sold in a district on a single turn, but the DC goes up by +2 for each item after the first, and once a check is failed (even the first) no more items can be sold that month.
Thanks for the input, I wasn't aware the check bonuses could climb that high that fast. I guess I need to set aside my "normal D&D math" and expect to be suprised by "Kingdom math".
I'd wager though that a kingdom with an economy score above 50 is a fairly powerful economic force, so it makes sense that they could move magic items faster. I guess I see the "one item per district" as a bit of "hard specific" in what seems to be a very "soft abstraction" system. Just kind of stood out for me.
Then again, I think I needed to be reminded of just how much money even a mid range minor item is worth, relative to Joe Commoner's minimum wage. I think if I do allow multiple district sales, it will be with the +10 you are suggesting, maybe even +20. Something to look forward to, not to exploit.
Again, thanks for the input!
Thanks for the input, I wasn't aware the check bonuses could climb that high that fast. I guess I need to set aside my "normal D&D math" and expect to be suprised by "Kingdom math".
I'd wager though that a kingdom with an economy score above 50 is a fairly powerful economic force, so it makes sense that they could move magic items faster. I guess I see the "one item per district" as a bit of "hard specific" in what seems to be a very "soft abstraction" system. Just kind of stood out for me.
Then again, I think I needed to be reminded of just how much money even a mid range minor item is worth, relative to Joe Commoner's minimum wage. I think if I do allow multiple district sales, it will be with the +10 you are suggesting, maybe even +20. Something to look forward to, not to exploit.
Again, thanks for the input!
Personally, I plan on reducing how much each item produces in BP but increasing how many can be sold. I need to do maths, but the goal will be to make it so the kingdom can produce about the same ammount but the magic items cycle more rapidly.
A couple Kingdom Building questions I've failed to find answers for:
When you build a road in a hex, does it connect to all adjacent hexes, or only two? If the latter, and you want more connections, do you just build another road in the hex for each two additional hexsides? This would only significantly affect movement around the kingdom, but it interests me anyway.
Does the terrain of the hex a city is built in have any effect on it's defensive modifier? Does it have any effect whatsoever other than building time?
-Kle.
we have been playing a road goes centre of a hex, to centre of a hex. that way it resolves a lot of the problems where it exactly is and what it connects to
id say it would give a defence bonus, if its harder to build a city thats cos its harder to access
I've been under the impressiont that roads are sort of an abstract. By paying the BP cost, you aren't paying for a specific length of roadway going from here to there, your paying for the ability for there to be roads in that hex. And roads are then built at no extra cost where they need to be.
So if two adjacent hexes had paid for "roads", they could connect to each other (likely, especially if there were villages or such), or they could just be random roads leading nowhere (kind of pointless, but still possible).
In short (and unless I'm wrong): paying the road cost pays for the presence of roads in a hex, not a specific set length of road.
I've been under the impressiont that roads are sort of an abstract. By paying the BP cost, you aren't paying for a specific length of roadway going from here to there, your paying for the ability for there to be roads in that hex. And roads are then built at no extra cost where they need to be.
So if two adjacent hexes had paid for "roads", they could connect to each other (likely, especially if there were villages or such), or they could just be random roads leading nowhere (kind of pointless, but still possible).
In short (and unless I'm wrong): paying the road cost pays for the presence of roads in a hex, not a specific set length of road.
The road covers a roadway system for that entire hex. You had it right.
yeah, i guess it does
but it is nice for someone to draw on a road in a pretty colour rather then just putting an R in the hex
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Warning: This post became a little longer than anticipated.
Ok - I'm still trying to fiddle around with the problem of selling of magic items. That is to say, given the current rules, it is way more effective to have a kingdom which is strictly based on selling magic items to pay for everything rather than anything else.
I guess my stumbling block at the moment has to do with how much money the PCs actually need as they get through the AP. Up until now, my PCs have managed to (just) survive two years of game time and have only just produced their first magic items in their kingdom. So, at the very least I know that you can get out of the gates without it.
Clearly, not selling magic items will drastically slow down the development of a kingdom since your average income will be much lower but I can't really see this being a problem. That is, I don't mind if it takes many years or even decades for the kingdom to actually develop (which is actually more realistic in my mind).
The problem comes when we start having to pay for armies. War of the River Kings spells out that they expect the PCs to have the equivalent of a CR11 army to be able to survive this portion of the AP.
I am planning on using the suggested updates to the mass combat rules given by Jason Nelson. Looking at the stock armies, we can assume they'll have something like: Enormous Militia, Regular Army and Centaur Outriders which would have a total CR of 11 and a total consumption of 11 per week.
So, can a large kingdom (say 150ish hexes) support a consumption of 44 per month if it cannot sell magic items? Here's where it gets a little grey for me.
Is it reasonable to assume that a kingdom of that size will have an economy bonus roughly the same as it's size + 20? I would think so but have no experience there. If that's the case, it's average economy check would be in the range of 170-190 which would only net 34-38 BP per month. Of course, having excess farms could help but many people will have already devoted over half of their kingdom (~80 hexes!) to farms to keep non-wartime consumption at about 0. It looks like it could (just) be done, but you would need reserves and hope you don't have a protracted war.
If this isn't going to be enough, how much help would they need? One idea I've been tossing around is giving static econ bonuses and very small BP bonuses for the sale of magic items using the current rules:
If a district has at least one minor item for sale - +1 econ
If a district has at least one medium item for sale - +2 econ
If a district has at least one major item for sale - +4 econ
These bonuses would stack. This might give us the situation where the econ roll would be significantly higher than the command DC once we have a large kingdom. Of course, +7 econ per district still only nets 1.4 BP per month which won't be a huge change.
I would also allow the sale of one magic item per district per kingdom turn where the net BP gain would be minor=0, medium=1, major=2 at DCs 20, 35 and 50 respectively.
This would still give us the situation where magic items are far more valuable than "traditional" sources but it might not overshadow everything else in quite the same manner. For kingdoms of 30+ hexes, you can therefore expect to be selling a major item every month from each district that produces one. Even though this is a lot of money, it will probably be less than 34-38 you would be making on your economy roll unless you had at least ~20 districts all producing major magic items.
The other reason I chose the numbers I did is that a new district increases your kingdom's consumption by 1. The sale of minor items cannot overcome this, but the sale of medium items can. In other words, your economy produces items which can in turn be sold to feed and support that district. Major items would produce double that and give a net increase in wealth for that district each month.
I guess my questions for the people who have bothered to read all my rambling are:
1. Exactly how many BPs are the players going to need to wage war (and win)?
2. What's the best way to minimize the impact to the economy of magic item sales while still giving the players enough BPs?
3. Can this be achieved without reducing the fun of kingdom building for the players?
It looks like it could (just) be done, but you would need reserves and hope you don't have a protracted war.
I want my players to need large reserves in their treasury and hope they don't have a protracted war.
It looks like it could (just) be done, but you would need reserves and hope you don't have a protracted war.I want my players to need large reserves in their treasury and hope they don't have a protracted war.
Well, that was kind of the point. With the current magic item rules, it's possible to amass huge reserves in a short amount of time which kind of makes the mass combats significantly easier. I want things to feel like war is bad for the kingdom rather than just a nuisance.
@Chris Kenney: That's certainly a fair enough point, but at the point of the campaign where you have over 30-40 hexes in your kingdom, you will sell every magic item every month (barring the rolling of a 1). Getting 15 BP per month per major magic item is a very consistent source of income that completely outshines the BP they will earn each month otherwise. This is what I want to prevent.
I understand that this is an abstraction and we're not just selling the items and adding the money to the kingdom's coffers. I just don't see magic item sales as providing any significant fluctuation in economic activity in the long run. Therefore, giving 15 BP for the sale of a single item is currently equivalent to +71.25 on that month's economy check. To me, this seems a little high. If you then consider kingdoms where 4 or 5 major items get sold each month, you're looking at something in the neighbourhood of +300 for your economy check.
I guess my goal is two-fold:
1. Alter the rules at little as possible so that creating lots of magic items is no longer the "right" way to make an efficient kingdom.
2. Maintain balance so that players can still afford to wage war in the later stages of the AP.
I guess I could simply increase the amount earned per item sold and do away with fixed economy bonuses. In that case, the equivalent would be an increase of 1BP per item sold so we would get:
minor: 1BP
medium: 2BP
major: 3BP
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@Chadlee Windham: That's an interesting idea since the sale of magic items becomes a fix percentage rather than something related to economy checks. I'm not sure I like that they're now unrelated, but it does help reduce the BP a kingdom can earn from magic items.
When an item is 'pushed', you get the following equivalent economy bonuses:
Minor item earns 2BPx45% = 0.9BP = +4.5 Economy Check
Medium item earns 8BPx30% = 2.4BP = +12 Economy Check
Major item earns 15BPx15% = 2.25BP = +11.25 Economy Check
This is pretty close to the average income I was hoping to award the players. It is a little odd that you get a bigger benefit from promoting medium items even if major items are available but the major items will provide greater swings.
So, we've reduced income from magic item sales, introduced fluctuating income and still provided enough BPs on average for PCs to wage war. Looks promising.
@Chris Kenney: That's certainly a fair enough point, but at the point of the campaign where you have over 30-40 hexes in your kingdom, you will sell every magic item every month (barring the rolling of a 1).Incorrect, actually. There's a hard limit of one sale per district per month. And it has to be an item in the district, so you can't sell all the items from one district just by establishing extra city districts and only putting up structures with no magic items.
Yes, yes - one item in every district that has one - that was the intent. The point is that once you hit 30-40 hexes, the check becomes almost automatic. It's been documented by many others already that it's very easy to be selling 4-5 major items every month.
Just to play Devil's Advocate for a moment, remember that the kingdom rules are ludicrously abstracted. While magic items are the only thing tracked directly, that's because their movement through the economy is likely the only thing the PCs really care about. The BP boost from the 'sale' of a magic item doesn't mean the item sold and suddenly all that gold is going into the vault. Rather, it's a way of abstracting out all the fluctuating economic activity that would lead to someone being able to afford the item. If the economy is slow and tourism is bad, adventurers and high-class merchants aren't coming in and buying high-ticket items.
Or, to put it another way, magic item sales are the way to represent fluctuations in the actual economy, while the Economy rating itself is a measure of how stable the economy is.
To play Solar's Advocate, "the BP boost from the 'sale' of a magic item" is the problem, not what level of abstraction it represents. The hundreds of BP per turn generated once the magic-item-generation-and-sale economy gets going is the problem - especially as it vastly overshadows the actual Economy check that allegedly provides the kingdom's income.
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In Rivers Run Red, my group's characters just returned from a diplomatic mission to Varnhold. Gregori has begun his ranting resulting in +2 to Unrest (by the book).
While my players marked their Unrest at 0, they have calculated an overall Unrest modifier of -6 thanks to some smart planning and good luck so far in the game.
I thought I read that unrest could not go below 0, but I may have been mistaken. I assigned them an unrest of 2 (not -4). However that was at the ending of the last game. I'll need to update this before our game begins this weekend.
Any heads up would be appreciated, thanks!
On Page 55 of Rivers Run Red, last line of the first column.
"Unrest can never go below 0 — adjustments that would normally reduce Unrest lower than 0 are wasted."
Sorry if this question has already been answered, but when/how often exactly are armies raised (during a specific phase of a kingdom turn/once per week/other established time/etc), and where can they be raised(in any city/barracks/district/etc)? Are there limits to how many armies can be raised at one time?
Sorry I have a noob Question for the rules of Building a Kingdom.
When do you need Loyalty? My Players are in the 6th or 7th month and they didn't need a Loyalty throw yet.
Is it useless? Or is there a misunderstanding on my site?
Thx for answering
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Sorry I have a noob Question for the rules of Building a Kingdom.
When do you need Loyalty? My Players are in the 6th or 7th month and they didn't need a Loyalty throw yet.
Is it useless? Or is there a misunderstanding on my site?
Thx for answering
Events, and especially in later chapters. Admittedly, its less important in the early chapters, but a lot of the nastier events play off loyalty.
When do you need Loyalty? My Players are in the 6th or 7th month and they didn't need a Loyalty throw yet.
Is it useless? Or is there a misunderstanding on my site?
Mass Combat uses it heavily. Those rules will be covered in KM#5.
Also, certain Events (ie phase 4) require it.
As a GM, I throw in ad hoc Loyalty checks when the PCs try and do something crazy and want the Kingdom to be okay with it.
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I created a sheet to help keep track of kingdom growth while setting at the table and hashing it out with the other leaders. I found I was missing steps or not able to keep track of the DC and modifier changes unless I was setting in front of my computer. Now it is easier.
I added a army space in the upkeep section because I thought that was the best time to care for the soldiers.
rustle
Quick Questions...
Other than buying minor [less than 4000gp] items that are randomly generated, how can the slots be freed up?
When randomly generating these magic items what do you do if the % roll doesn't "hit" a magic item on the chart? Say the result is mundane equipment for example?
Edicts: If the Promotion Edict is set to Token [+1 Stability, +1BP Consumption] and is left unchanged the following month do you gain another 1 to your Stability and increase your Consumption again [to 2] meaning that if after 1 year set at Token you would have gained 12 Stability but would have had your Consumption increase by 12?... would this not lead to Consumption getting out of control...
...Or are the values left unchanged unless you change them each month?
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Quick Questions...
Other than buying minor [less than 4000gp] items that are randomly generated, how can the slots be freed up?
When randomly generating these magic items what do you do if the % roll doesn't "hit" a magic item on the chart? Say the result is mundane equipment for example?
Edicts: If the Promotion Edict is set to Token [+1 Stability, +1BP Consumption] and is left unchanged the following month do you gain another 1 to your Stability and increase your Consumption again [to 2] meaning that if after 1 year set at Token you would have gained 12 Stability but would have had your Consumption increase by 12?... would this not lead to Consumption getting out of control...
...Or are the values left unchanged unless you change them each month?
My understanding from what I've read before, is that almost everything resets each month and is not cumulative.
City Walls, are they buildings, or other.
Just curious because:
they are listed under building types.
they are not pictured with other building types.
they don't appear to take up any room.
Our group wonders if they count against the # of buildings per turn?
Or can they be thrown up as long as you have the bp?
thanks!
City Walls, are they buildings, or other.
Just curious because:
they are listed under building types.
they are not pictured with other building types.
they don't appear to take up any room.Our group wonders if they count against the # of buildings per turn?
Or can they be thrown up as long as you have the bp?thanks!
They are not buildings in the sense that they aren't represented in the building "Grid". Instead they take up an entire border of a city district when built.
They *are* buildings in the sense that they count towards the number of buildings you can build for that month.
So am i right in understanding .... one District is 36 squares of buildings?
One district is 36 blocks of buildings, which is 9 squares. There are some points (like determining population) where the terminology matters, and it's not intuitivie.
In real life blocks are borded by streets. In Golarion, it is alleys that define blocks while streets define squares (not to be confused with a town square of course). And though the icons are not really single buildings, they look like that on the map - making it more difficult to call an image of one building a block, while a group of buildings (with streets surrounding them) is not a block.
Anyway, if a new edition comes out, maybing calling the building sites "lots" and the square areas between streets "blocks" might make more sense.
Quick question: there is no errata for Monuments? The +3 loyalty for such a small cost (esp if you have a Temple) may create some monument-heavy cities...
Quick question: there is no errata for Monuments? The +3 loyalty for such a small cost (esp if you have a Temple) may create some monument-heavy cities...
In this case I would take an approach similar to graveyard or dump heavy cities, have some sort of negative consequence. Perhaps a magical storm rolls in and all the monuments become animated at start rampaging and fighting each other. The main idea is not to power game the stats, which is very easy to do with the RAW.