*I really wish you would have split it into 2 books.
It is two books: The Core Rulebook and the Bestiary. Oh, and welcome!
*Trumpets!*
*Gives Reynard slice of hot pie*
One of us! One of us!
It's too early, IMO, to pronounce the whole Kingmaker experiment as a success. Early results are very promising. But if it pans out through all 6 volumes, I think it would be worth considering doing one "sandbox" and one "railroad" AP per year. If there's another, 3rd form that people like, I suppose you could put that in the rotation.
Creative Director
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It's too early, IMO, to pronounce the whole Kingmaker experiment as a success. Early results are very promising. But if it pans out through all 6 volumes, I think it would be worth considering doing one "sandbox" and one "railroad" AP per year. If there's another, 3rd form that people like, I suppose you could put that in the rotation.
The response to Kingmaker's sandbox elements has been overwhelmingly positive. While we're certainly not going to completely abandon the more story-driven model of Adventure Path, I suspect we'll be increasing the sandbox elements in many adventures from here on out. Certainly the first adventure in "Serpent's Skull" is quite sandboxy. In fact, many of the Serpent's Skull adventures will be sandboxy, although the progression from one sandbox to another will be more rigid than it is in Kingmaker.
At this point, the next two APs after Serpent's Skull will be returning to more story-driven, with one of them actually fully embracing a "railroad" aspect (which will be a challenge in and of itself to pull off), but the response to sandbox adventures has been far too positive for us to ever abandon it completely.
OH! And welcome to the boards, Reynard!
Call me a noob (don't, really), but what are these terms: "sandbox" and "railroad" supposed to mean? It sounds a whole lot like insider jargon, which makes me the outsider...not in a creature type sort of way, but...you know...regular English...
They refer the the style of a campaign. Railroads are like, well, railroads in that they have a set destination and stops on the way. A sandbox is more freeform, allowing you to go and build and organically grow the story as you go, with only the general outline of the world itself to define the boundaries of what's possible.
Thanks!
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Creative Director
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Call me a noob (don't, really), but what are these terms: "sandbox" and "railroad" supposed to mean? It sounds a whole lot like insider jargon, which makes me the outsider...not in a creature type sort of way, but...you know...regular English...
They're mostly fan-created words to cover the following two concepts:
Sandbox: An adventure where the decisions of the players determine what happens. The adventure is like a big sandbox, with lots of places to find and discover in the sandbox, but the order in which the players explore and have those encounters is up to them, not the adventure's plot or the GM's desire.
Railroad: An adventure driven by a story. The PCs are along for a ride, and while they can make some decisions along the way, they can't get off the train. The encounters they have "on the train" and the encounters they have when the "train" rolls on through pre-set locations or events on the train's rails happen no matter what the PCs do.
Both options are perfectly viable for adventures. Some groups prefer one over the other. Neither one is the "right" way to play the game.
For Pathfinder adventures, we try to aim somewhere between these two extremes.
EDIT: Ninjaed. Curse my wordiness.
Curse my wordiness.
But we love your words, James!
I hate "Adventure Paths". To me, "sandboxes" are the only way to go. So, as much as I always admired the abilities of the Paizo creators -- artists, writers, editors and everyone else -- I never much used Paizo material.
Then came 4E and a brief flirtation with trying to like it.
Once I recovered, I went back to 3.5, running a campaign in a "d&d-ified" England at the fall of the Roman empire -- sort of a "pre-Arthurian" campaign. It's been going pretty well, despite a few niggling issues with 3.5 (not least of which -- advancement rates).
Then, a friend sent me an email. "Seen this?" it asked, with a link to Kingmaker. I clicked and you had me. Sure, it might have taken a month or so of hemming and hawing, but you got me anyway. I subscribed. I purchased the ginormous* Pathfinder core book and have started my "shopping list" of other Paizo products (Critical Hit/Fumble Decks -- yur next!).
So, thanks, I guess. When I realized 4E was nowhere near my speed, and getting people to play 1E was harder than it should be, I figured I was safe from buying anything. After all, i had all the 3.5 material I'd ever need. Right? Riiiggghhht.
So -- You Got Me. Go on. Gloat.
*I really wish you would have split it into 2 books.
Welcome aboard 8)
Im pretty new here myself, coming from older versions of DnD (From way back). Did the same, got the 4E books, but it wasnt quite what I was hoping it would be (Not knocking it, just not for me). Found Pathfinder, and am making a few purchases to get me going. Ive been very impressed in both the game as a whole, and, though new, the community here thus far (Though I lurk and read more then I write)
Welcome abaord, and many fun adventures to you 8)
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Call me a noob (don't, really), but what are these terms: "sandbox" and "railroad" supposed to mean? It sounds a whole lot like insider jargon, which makes me the outsider...not in a creature type sort of way, but...you know...regular English...
For those that would like examples:
Final Fantasy XIII (and most of the others of the series) - Railroad
Dragon Age: Origins/Mass Effect = Sandbox
Curse my wordiness.But we love your words, James!
Especially when he has to eat them. ;P
Welcome aboard the Paizo train Reynard! Have some cookies. *offers virtual cookies*
So then, Paizo strives to find the happy harmony between "sandroad" and "railbox"?
Greetings and welcome. We hope you enjoy your gaming. Also check out the Pathfinder Compatible products (like those produced by Jon Brazer Enterprises, my company). Many are quite fun and cover areas that PFRPG does not, yet.
with one of them actually fully embracing a "railroad" aspect
You just gave me a great idea: an entire campaign that takes place on a train.
with one of them actually fully embracing a "railroad" aspectYou just gave me a great idea: an entire campaign that takes place on a train.
Everyone did it.
BAH: It's okay, since I was cheering his sorties in the thread that birthed the infamous, "There aren't Adventure lots of little paths" comment.
with one of them actually fully embracing a "railroad" aspectYou just gave me a great idea: an entire campaign that takes place on a train.Everyone did it.
BAH: It's okay, since I was cheering his sorties in the thread that birthed the infamous, "There aren't Adventure lots of little paths" comment.
I remember "Horror on the Orient Express". Never played it unfortunately, I'm certain it would have been fun.
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Creative Director
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with one of them actually fully embracing a "railroad" aspectYou just gave me a great idea: an entire campaign that takes place on a train.
It's out of print and goes for Big Bucks now, and I still kick myself for never having bought it when it first came out... but "Horror on the Orient Express" by Chaosium might be worth looking into if you're looking to do a train campaign...
Christie was a total hack. Couldn't she have written a more sand-boxy novel? ;P
Also, I meant to type earlier, "They aren't..."
I'd love to just see HotOE. What a great concept for a mash-up.
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Call me a noob (don't, really), but what are these terms: "sandbox" and "railroad" supposed to mean? It sounds a whole lot like insider jargon, which makes me the outsider...not in a creature type sort of way, but...you know...regular English...For those that would like examples:
Final Fantasy XIII (and most of the others of the series) - Railroad
Dragon Age: Origins/Mass Effect = Sandbox
Or if you like to see the term "sandbox" in its original context, look at completely open-ended games like trader space sims(Elite, X2-3, etc) or games like Mount & Blade. CRPGS featuring some deviation from a set path, such as KotOR or Baldur's Gate, don't really fulfil the open-ended requirement of a true sandbox. Otherwise we could go so far as to even call some fps games(Borderlands, Thief 3, SWAT 4) "sandboxes", which is stretching it a bit much.
Anyhow, more open-ended elements in new APs? Count me in, I really liked the small management additions and possibilities to fiddle with special locations, like Hambley's Farm or the Gold Goblin. If Kingmaker is a taste of things to come then...hell, you Paizo guys and gals rock.
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Welcome to the party!
And as far as "railroad versus sandbox" goes, my players have come up with a term for a third option: highway. If a railroad goes from one point to another with limited ability to alter the path, and a sandbox gives you a wide-open area in which you can do anything you like with little structure, then a highway is partway between the two. You have a starting point and a destination in mind, but the driver (the PCs in this case) control which way they go to get there, how fast or slow they drive, how many rest stops they make, where they eat along the way, and so on. It's a way to have a big, epic story and still let your players enjoy the sights along the way. It's worked out very well for us. ^_^
Jeremy Puckett
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Welcome to the party!
And as far as "railroad versus sandbox" goes, my players have come up with a term for a third option: highway. If a railroad goes from one point to another with limited ability to alter the path, and a sandbox gives you a wide-open area in which you can do anything you like with little structure, then a highway is partway between the two. You have a starting point and a destination in mind, but the driver (the PCs in this case) control which way they go to get there, how fast or slow they drive, how many rest stops they make, where they eat along the way, and so on. It's a way to have a big, epic story and still let your players enjoy the sights along the way. It's worked out very well for us. ^_^
Jeremy Puckett
I like your Highway path. A good campaign should be liberally supplied with other things to do as well. I think a pure sandbox approach is too open in that the GM has to do a lot of work and the adventurers are kind of directionless. The railroad, however would not be a good move for my group - they hate feeling constantly being driven in the GM's predestined direction, even though they are. After all, who likes to be micromanaged? Instead make em feel like they are not the only "real" people in your GM'd world, and keep plot lines loose. Be ahead of the players obviously, but not so far that everything is written in stone. Convince the players that you have everything under control (well, at least make them feel comfortable with the fact that they can rely on you to pull a few rabbits out of the hat if they want to do something else). Here are a few ideas that I've used to help a game world live and breathe.
At the start of a campaign or even during it for that matter have a few parallel routes. Keep time-lines of events in your world consistent. Have the occasional rival (not necessarily diametrically aligned) parties of (NPC)adventurers, and let news of their exploits reach the ears of the PCs. By doing that you can maintain a balance between not having your PCs wander off to places you've not thought much about (improv is often a friend here (and a notebook)), or pushing them along a rigid story where they feel like they are just dice rolling spectators.
There's nothing worse than hearing players laugh and say "well I guess that must be the adventure hook -let's not take the bait".
Highways - I like it. If your players don't like it you can always say "My way or the highway" ;-)
The "highway" concept is ususally what I strive for (good term, BTW).
In my first campaign (c. 2000) I actually had the PCs meet at an adventurer's guild where they were presented with a half-dozen different "commissions." This was really the beginning of six different adventure paths they could embark upon. Thereafter, I often planned the next few gaming sessions entirely based on what they had done in the previous ones, with no clear destination in mind--very "sandboxy" of me.
My next campaign was the antithesis: Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil--very "railroady."
Since then, I aim for the meandering middle ground.
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A good way of recognizing the 2 is this.
A railroad focuses on the overall aspect of the campaign. The plot is shaped by the game/GM. You need to save the princess, or you need to kill the BBEG.
A sandbox askes the much more basic question of: you can do anything your character can do in this world, what will you do? They can go save the princess, they can hunt down orcs, they can take some jobs and do that.
All video game RPGs fall in the middle. There is always an overreach plot, and then based on the design of the game, the players can control how much of the plot needs to be done. FF7 is to stop Shinra, and then sephiroth later. FF9 is to stop Queen Brahn, and then Kuja. Baldur's Gate is figure out why you are being attacked, and then to stop Sarevok. Elder Scrolls 4 Oblivion is to stop the invasion. Dragon Age is to stop the Blight and slay the archdemon. Mass Effect is to stop Saren, and then Soverign.
Fantasy Fantasy games are often railroads until players obtain the airship. Then they can stop moving the plot and go do side-quests. Japanese RPGs often have set PCs that the player cannot change. Therefore often that genre is referred to as a book. Everything is laid out already, you just get to come along for the ride.
American and western RPGs have been on the other side more often than not. They usually give the end goal first, and leave it up to the players to figure out how they want to get there, with some railroads due to the constraints of not having a GM to make things up as the game progresses. Western RPGs often uses the "silent hero" (especially all Bioware games). The player decides how to shape the game, as constrained by the engine (like good/bad; lawful/chaotic; Open Palm/Closed Fist, etc.). NPCs and the world react differently to the PC's actions. Their reactions will change the world, although never that it changes the plot of the entire game, just the possible outcome (like KotOR, Baldur's Gate, or Jade Empire).