I didn't think I would need to post fix something so blatantly obvious with a [/sarcasm] tag.Perhaps you should work on your sarcasm. Your post was sarcastic to the person you replied to by being blatantly insulting to me and misrepresenting what I said.
It wasn't insulting to you at all. I was making fun of the ridiculous crafting system in D&D and the general "Mages are 3x more awesome than you are" thing going around. Hence why I added the "they cultivated for 30 years part."
I had a 12th level character character die in my game that I ran very quickly because they fell into a pit full of CR 1/3 tiny venomous snakes because each and every save he failed deal 1d2 CON damage but this lowered his FORT save very quickly, in addition to the increased DC for multiple doses of the venom.
They tried to get around the pit quickly to deal with a Yuan-Ti Archer on the opposite side, with narrow ledges leading around either side of the pit the only way to engage him in melee. Problem is one ledge was a trap that saw it slide away when weight was applied to it...the character failed their save and plummeted into the pit while combat continued ontop.
Two rounds later, a dozen tiny CR 1/3 poisonous snakes had killed the 12th Level Fighter in no time flat before his companions had even finished the fight above.
So in essence, I think the poison rules are just fine, better than they were in 3.5 with the effects occuring more frequently with clearer rules for overcoming them naturally.
ANYWAY, I too agree that the poison mechanic needs some work. Especially the double-save thing.
You get a save immediately, then next round you get a save to negate the effects. If the poison is a "1 cure" type, then you effectively get 2 saves to negate the poison, one right after the other. Lame.
I kind of think that the save to negate completly should be increased by 5, but leave the regular save DC's alone. And saves are made AFTER the poison does it's damage, to prevent NEXT round's effect.
This will help ensure that the poison affects the target at least once. It also justifies the cost, allows mad fort saves to avoid it completly, and makes it's use more likely for friend and foe alike.
I posted a question on when you save vs poison, and the response I got was that there was no save immediately, and the first save happened on the enemies turn, even for poisons with "-" onset time. That was just what a couple people said though, there was no official response.
It wasn't insulting to you at all. I was making fun of the ridiculous crafting system in D&D and the general "Mages are 3x more awesome than you are" thing going around. Hence why I added the "they cultivated for 30 years part."I didn't think I would need to post fix something so blatantly obvious with a [/sarcasm] tag.Perhaps you should work on your sarcasm. Your post was sarcastic to the person you replied to by being blatantly insulting to me and misrepresenting what I said.
Yes, but by replying to a post that was in response to me, you implied that that was my actual thought on the matter. Since you were insulting the opposing view point, you were insulting me, even though I do not support that view point.
I had a 12th level character character die in my game that I ran very quickly because they fell into a pit full of CR 1/3 tiny venomous snakes because each and every save he failed deal 1d2 CON damage but this lowered his FORT save very quickly, in addition to the increased DC for multiple doses of the venom.
They tried to get around the pit quickly to deal with a Yuan-Ti Archer on the opposite side, with narrow ledges leading around either side of the pit the only way to engage him in melee. Problem is one ledge was a trap that saw it slide away when weight was applied to it...the character failed their save and plummeted into the pit while combat continued ontop.
Two rounds later, a dozen tiny CR 1/3 poisonous snakes had killed the 12th Level Fighter in no time flat before his companions had even finished the fight above.So in essence, I think the poison rules are just fine, better than they were in 3.5 with the effects occuring more frequently with clearer rules for overcoming them naturally.
I have to say, I also like the fact that poisons are less deadly in the short term but more deadly in the longer term. It makes it so monsters with nasty poisons don't auto-kill you, but if you don't deal with the poison it is more likely to kill you.
these are all very good points, i do agree that the cost of poisons are too high and the crafting time is too long.
it just feels to me like poison shouldn't lose its effectiveness the higher level you are, i totally understand the concern of power balance, you don't necessarily want something a commoner could use to kill your 15 level character but i just feel there should be a bigger threat then losing a d6 of con or str, there was a real reason kings had food tasters in the past.
these are all very good points, i do agree that the cost of poisons are too high and the crafting time is too long.
it just feels to me like poison shouldn't lose its effectiveness the higher level you are, i totally understand the concern of power balance, you don't necessarily want something a commoner could use to kill your 15 level character but i just feel there should be a bigger threat then losing a d6 of con or str, there was a real reason kings had food tasters in the past.
Have you read the rules entirely?
1. Poisons have durration. They affect the target multiple rounds dealing damage. For Example, 1 dose of Wolfsbane deals d3 con damage every minute for 6 minutes, averaging 12 con damage. Enough to kill an average commoner. The Save DC is such that they have ~ 1/4 chance to make the first save, and their chances get lower the further they go.2. You can put more than 1 dose of poison in food, or any time you use inhaled or injested poison. Each dose ups the DC +2 and durration by 1/2. 2 doses of Wolfsbane would be a DC 18, d3 con damage for 9 minutes, averaging 18 con damage. Up this with 3+ doses and commoners wont be making the saves. Hit someone with 6 doses, and they need a DC26 fort save for d3 con damage for 21 minutes, averaging 42 con damage. They would be praying for that Nat. 20 or hoping they have a cleric very close.
Yes, but by replying to a post that was in response to me, you implied that that was my actual thought on the matter. Since you were insulting the opposing view point, you were insulting me, even though I do not support that view point.It wasn't insulting to you at all. I was making fun of the ridiculous crafting system in D&D and the general "Mages are 3x more awesome than you are" thing going around. Hence why I added the "they cultivated for 30 years part."I didn't think I would need to post fix something so blatantly obvious with a [/sarcasm] tag.Perhaps you should work on your sarcasm. Your post was sarcastic to the person you replied to by being blatantly insulting to me and misrepresenting what I said.
You are being ridiculous.
Stringburka mis-quoted me. HOGARTH actually said the following:
...
...but stringburka incorrectly stated that I said it. I would ask that you don't give me credit for another poster's comments.
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but that is a slippery slope I don't want to go down.
Thanks.
I have corrected the relevant quotes.
I guess nobody remembers the oldschool poison rules and how much that SUCKED. From a fun to play perspective, there is a VERY good reason to stay away from SoD effects.
Oh no, I remember them all right. Thats why I love the new rules.
To make piosons scary at any level, make it a CON check, not a fortitude save, to resist/save. 20th level, 1st level, their will be some difference in your CON score, but not enough to allow a 20th level fighter to drink poison smoothies and laugh. Now, if you did incorporate this, the upper end poisons would have to be weakened, else they would become unavoidable death juice.
Just a thought. An evil one.
I can't think very many character builds that could drink poison and laugh (short of gaining actual immunity somehow).
The highest Fortitude save I can think of in 20 levels is +33, and that's an irregularly high number.
+12 base
+12 ability score
+5 cloak
+2 Great Fortitude
+1 halfling
+1 luck stone
You might be able to get a little higher if you are a paladin with a high Constitution AND a high Charisma, or if you have magic items I've not thought to mention.
Still, there are plenty of poisons out there that can hurt even this guy with a little bad luck (see the Tarn Linnorm for one level-appropriate example).
if you went with a dwarf i think it would be 1 higher but that is negligible.
Thanks.
Sorry, not intentional. I failed at copypasta.
|
I guess nobody remembers the oldschool poison rules and how much that SUCKED. From a fun to play perspective, there is a VERY good reason to stay away from SoD effects.Oh no, I remember them all right. Thats why I love the new rules.
Hehe, yeah I to prefer this system as well. Actually with the stacking rules for poison, I find poison can actually still be dangerous at high levels.
i never saw the new rules on stacking, i guess i was wrong.
poison does seem powerful enough, sorry for not reading into it better, my bad.
I can't think very many character builds that could drink poison and laugh (short of gaining actual immunity somehow).
The problem isn't PC classes laughing off poison... it's monsters laughing off poison. Especially at higher levels, most monsters have ungodly Fort saves... making poison used by PCs nearly pointless.
The problem isn't PC classes laughing off poison... it's monsters laughing off poison. Especially at higher levels, most monsters have ungodly Fort saves... making poison used by PCs nearly pointless.I can't think very many character builds that could drink poison and laugh (short of gaining actual immunity somehow).
The highest fort save in the bestiary for a CR20 is a 29. That is lower than Ravindork's example.
Edit: there are a lot of things immune to poison though.
Edit: there are a lot of things immune to poison though.
I think many cases of poison immunity are unnecessary. It would be easy to house rule it away from anything that has a recognizable anatomy. It could be removed even from some undeads, like vampires, that seem to have some kind of metabolism.
Incorporeals, skeletons, elementals and maybe oozes would still be immune. The others that are normally immune would get some poison resistance, like "roll twice, pick best result".
if you went with a dwarf i think it would be 1 higher but that is negligible.
Actually, now that you mention it, my numbers are off. They include a +2 racial bonus to constitution, which halflings don't have. It should be +32, not +33. Also, 36 is the highest you can get in any one ability score via core races and rules. I previously thought it was 34, which further throw my numbers off...
18 base
06 magical item
05 levels
05 tome or wish
02 racial
36 TOTAL ABILITY
You need templates, homebrew items, or an unusual race to do better.
EDIT: Revised save calculations--
+24 base (achieved through multiclassing)
+13 Constitution
+13 Divine Grace
+05 cloak
+02 Great Fortitude
+02 Dwarf hardiness against poison
+01 luck stone
+60 TOTAL BONUS (against poison, +58 against everything else)
Again, that is an unusually high number that likely won't be seen outside of theoretical thinking. So please don't use it as a benchmark for whether or not poisons are balanced.
There is one way to never get taken out by poisons that your Fort save exceeds - take the PHB II feat where you never fail a Fort save on a 1.
I have corrected the relevant quotes.
Thanks
Sorry, not intentional. I failed at copypasta.
No problem.
There is one way to never get taken out by poisons that your Fort save exceeds - take the PHB II feat where you never fail a Fort save on a 1.
I might still take that feat for other reasons, but there's another way: become immune to poison.
+12 base
+12 ability score
+5 cloak
+2 Great Fortitude
+1 halfling
+1 luck ston
So, if I bake a halfling into my cookies, I'll get great poison resistance?
Since it's not explicitly listed as chopped, diced, pureed, etc., I assume just add it whole, or am I reading that recipe list wrong?
So, if I bake a halfling into my cookies, I'll get great poison resistance?
Since it's not explicitly listed as chopped, diced, pureed, etc., I assume just add it whole, or am I reading that recipe list wrong?
Ignore the halfling. It's an error in the recipe. :P
There is one way to never get taken out by poisons that your Fort save exceeds - take the PHB II feat where you never fail a Fort save on a 1.I might still take that feat for other reasons, but there's another way: become immune to poison.
This is going to lead to some sort of The Princess Bride reference isn't it? Oh wait, already has.
This is going to lead to some sort of The Princess Bride reference isn't it? Oh wait, already has.There is one way to never get taken out by poisons that your Fort save exceeds - take the PHB II feat where you never fail a Fort save on a 1.I might still take that feat for other reasons, but there's another way: become immune to poison.
Had to do it, but luckily we can go on with our regularly-scheduled topic now. Sorry about that.
Ignore the halfling. It's an error in the recipe. :P
Still turned out pretty tasty.
I actually agree with an earlier comment liking some old school poisons. That said, also agree to not bring back old school save or die poisons.
If we have a hypothetical 30 HP poison with a single save (old school) and replace it with a 6 HP 5 rounds poison with no cure, you have a poison that kills commoners almost without fail, threatens the hell out of low-mid level characters, and is a slight effect against high level characters. CON damage can't have that effect. Most commoners have a higher CON than my wizard.
I think its somewhat appropriate to allow HP healing against certain types of poisons (from a rl look at how poisons work).
In my campaigns I use a mixture of both. There is nothing like the look on a new player's face like when they realize you have things that aren't in their book. :)
If I had my god-mode:I-am-the-designer type way, all poisons would do HP damage and have secondary effects of other stat damage.
The problem isn't PC classes laughing off poison... it's monsters laughing off poison. Especially at higher levels, most monsters have ungodly Fort saves... making poison used by PCs nearly pointless.I can't think very many character builds that could drink poison and laugh (short of gaining actual immunity somehow).
The highest fort save in the bestiary for a CR20 is a 29. That is lower than Ravindork's example.
Edit: there are a lot of things immune to poison though.
...and what's the highest save DC for poison? The highest I've ever seen in any non 3rd party books is Dragon Bile at 24. The fact is that especially at higher levels poison is rather irrelevant since the monsters will save 75% of the time or more. Fort is the highest save of most monsters.
...and what's the highest save DC for poison? The highest I've ever seen in any non 3rd party books is Dragon Bile at 24. The fact is that especially at higher levels poison is rather irrelevant since the monsters will save 75% of the time or more. Fort is the highest save of most monsters.
You're not looking very hard. You're also ignoring the fact that multiple doses increase the DC.
|
|
...and what's the highest save DC for poison? The highest I've ever seen in any non 3rd party books is Dragon Bile at 24. The fact is that especially at higher levels poison is rather irrelevant since the monsters will save 75% of the time or more. Fort is the highest save of most monsters.You're not looking very hard. You're also ignoring the fact that multiple doses increase the DC.
He means poison that players can use...although I suppose you could summon a pit fiend and wield it with some 3.5 feats and spells....
He means poison that players can use...
Gate. Or just fabricate. There's nothing in the description of Pit Fiends that suggests you couldn't magically re-create their poison.
...and what's the highest save DC for poison? The highest I've ever seen in any non 3rd party books is Dragon Bile at 24. The fact is that especially at higher levels poison is rather irrelevant since the monsters will save 75% of the time or more. Fort is the highest save of most monsters.You're also ignoring the fact that multiple doses increase the DC.
Not ignoring. I actually didn't know that. Still, what does each extra dose do, increase the DC by 1? That can get so spendy it's not even worth it and poison is still pointless.
Still, what does each extra dose do, increase the DC by 1?
2, and adds half again the duration. So, two doses of a DC 15, 6 round poison would be DC 17, 9 rounds.
Not ignoring. I actually didn't know that. Still, what does each extra dose do, increase the DC by 1? That can get so spendy it's not even worth it and poison is still pointless.
They increase the DC by 2, and there's no upper limit. Adds 50% duration too.
Unlike other afflictions, multiple doses of the same poison stack. Poisons delivered by injury and contact cannot inflict more than one dose of poison at a time, but inhaled and ingested poisons can inflict multiple doses at once. Each additional dose extends the total duration of the poison (as noted under frequency) by half its total duration. In addition, each dose of poison increases the DC to resist the poison by +2. This increase is cumulative. Multiple doses do not alter the cure conditions of the poison, and meeting these conditions ends the affliction for all the doses. For example, a character is bit three times in the same round by a trio of Medium monstrous spiders, injecting him with three doses of Medium spider venom. The unfortunate character must make a DC 18 Fortitude save for the next 8 rounds. Fortunately, just one successful save cures the character of all three doses of the poison.
EDIT: Ninja'd
Well, to poison crafting I have to say that extracting poison from a creature might be easy, but refining it to some stable form might not.
If you are affraid of having a poisoned blade against a foe that has high Fort saves or imunity to poisons, then you should definitely look for some Eberron or complete Adventurer/Scoundrel (not sure which one that was) for inspiration. There were some handy gadgets to build into a bladed weapon, consisting of a small container built in sword's pommel or handle, where you just had to use a move action to press a tiny piston or screw the pomel and a dose of poison or alchemical fire coated your blade (i think that whole apparatus costed something like a masterwork weapon).
BTW do you think that even dragons and giants would be affraid of an amazon fighter/nurse holding a 10 dose siringe/spear? :D
Is there information on how to convert 3.5 poisons into 3.P poisons? For example, the Yuan-ti Tainted Ones' poison bite. 1d4 Con/1d4 Con.
Would it stay 1d4 and just switch to 1rd/for 6 rds? Like most injury poison.
|
Is there information on how to convert 3.5 poisons into 3.P poisons? For example, the Yuan-ti Tainted Ones' poison bite. 1d4 Con/1d4 Con.
Would it stay 1d4 and just switch to 1rd/for 6 rds? Like most injury poison.
It's in the conversion guide.
Link
is it just me or does it seem like poison and even venom is too weak, when i think of someone being bitten by a snake or being poisoned i imagine some one dieing almost every time.
No that's wrong, most adults survive for example the black widow's poison (tough it's getting quite ugly with the poison of some ocean dwellers like jellyfish, the blue ringed octopus or the geographic cone snail, also the dart frog poison is quite potent - on the other hand, for exampled the feared scorpions will kill only people with an allergy, at least most of them)
|
|
No that's wrong, most adults survive for example the black widow's poison (tough it's getting quite ugly with the poison of some ocean dwellers like jellyfish, the blue ringed octopus or the geographic cone snail, also the dart frog poison is quite potent - on the other hand, for exampled the feared scorpions will kill only people with an allergy, at least most of them)is it just me or does it seem like poison and even venom is too weak, when i think of someone being bitten by a snake or being poisoned i imagine some one dieing almost every time.
You realize that you answered a post written more than a year ago, right?
Is there information on how to convert 3.5 poisons into 3.P poisons? For example, the Yuan-ti Tainted Ones' poison bite. 1d4 Con/1d4 Con.
Would it stay 1d4 and just switch to 1rd/for 6 rds? Like most injury poison.
It's in the conversion guide.
Link
Thank you! :-D
::Reburies the thread:: Nothing to see here, move along.
As far as poisons go, I don't think I'd ever purchase or make them unless I was playing an Alchemist with the sticky poison discovery, making them much more valuable per dose. On the other hand, it doesn't cost me anything to put some Blue Whinnis on my rapier so if we take down some assassins and my GM gives the doses to me I'm not going to say "this stuff's too underpowered."
Highest poison fort save in 20 levels.
Dwarven paladin 13/12/16/10/8/13 starting stats.
4 points into Con and 1 into Cha over 20 levels.
13/12/24 (30)/10/8/18 (24)
+4 tome of Cha/Con
+6 belt of Con
+6 headband of Cha
+12 base save
+5 cloak of resistance
luckstone
Great Fortitude
Ironguts
Resilient trait
dwarven hardiness
+42 Fort vs ingested poison, +40 vs non-ingested, +38 normal Fort.
Also, same dwarf at 2nd level, with 0 gear and GF feat has a +11 vs poison.
More Fort?
- If you began with 18s in your Cha and Con, you can increase the numbers by +4.
- If you multicheeseclass as a paladin 2/monk 2/clr 2/ranger 2/fighter 12, you can increase your base Fort save to +19.
+53 vs ingested poison. You can drink Jormungandr's blood and stay standing.
|
|
Highest poison fort save in 20 levels.
Dwarven paladin 13/12/16/10/8/13 starting stats.
4 points into Con and 1 into Cha over 20 levels.
13/12/24 (30)/10/8/18 (24)
+4 tome of Cha/Con
+6 belt of Con
+6 headband of Cha+12 base save
+5 cloak of resistance
luckstone
Great Fortitude
Ironguts
Resilient trait
dwarven hardiness+42 Fort vs ingested poison, +40 vs non-ingested, +38 normal Fort.
If you began with 18s in your Cha and Con, you can increase the numbers by +4.
An 8th level druid is immune to any poison. The same goes for 10th level alchemists, 11th level monks and 20th level sorcerers of the serpentine bloodline.
An 8th level druid is immune to any poison. The same goes for 10th level alchemists, 11th level monks and 20th level sorcerers of the serpentine bloodline.
Yes they are. Which isn't the same thing at all as having a high Fort save against poison, just like casting magic missile is not the same as having a high attack, and having immunity to fire is not the same as having a high resistance to fire.
Do we have 10 classes with high Fort saves that don't cause alignment issues? Fighter, ranger, monk, paladin, cleric, cavalier, samurai, magus is 8, so that is +26 base Fort save. If we had two more classes, you could get to +30.
Starting at 20 Con and 16 Cha with the dwarf gives you a maximum score of 31 and 27. Applying your 5 level up ability points gives you 34 and 28. +12 and +9 modifiers, not +13, Ravingdork.
+30 base, +12 Con, +9 Cha, +2 GFort, +2 dwarf, +1 trait, +1 luckstone, +5 resistance, +2 Ironguts is +64 vs ingested poison.