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So, has anyone come up with a good way to solvethe puzzle of opening the crux? My players enjoy puzzles and I am not paticularly fond of just making a bunch of die rolls to see if they open it. I may just write out a sequence of symbols and then let them fumble through it but I wanted to see if anyone had any other ideas?
Can we assume this whole thread is a spoiler? I don't want to hide everything here.
So, has anyone come up with a good way to solvethe puzzle of opening the crux? My players enjoy puzzles and I am not paticularly fond of just making a bunch of die rolls to see if they open it. I may just write out a sequence of symbols and then let them fumble through it but I wanted to see if anyone had any other ideas?
I'm a little unhappy with that solution, too. My players are one session away from finding it (I thought they'd find it last night, but the heart took longer than I thought. Well, and two fights with Sian).
What I was thinking of doing is to replace the stairway that goes nowhere with a library of runic magic. From that, their more studious characters might be able to figure out that the runes on the sides of the Crux indicate a sequence. But just numbering them 1-12 would be a stupid lock combination, so I might make them find some reference to the layers of planar realities, and have the symbols represent those planes. And if the players spend a couple hours reading in the library, they might find the symbols that represent the planes and the order you would find them if you traveled straight through (down?) them. For instance, the first lock could be the symbol of the Prime Material, so they trace that one first, it glows, and they know they're on the right track. After that, the planes would descend as air, fire, water, earth. Or the elements first, then the Prime. Any order you like, but make sure that Anvengen had a record of the order of the layers. And after you have the prime and the four elements, well, the next seven could be the seven layers of Hell. Those would have an established order of descent that wasn't subjective.
So, now instead of a few meaningless die rolls, we have the two facts they need to put together: 1) the runic symbols represent planes, and 2) the planes are layered like an onion. Or a parfait. Everybody likes parfait. They then need to make the leap to having to trace the runes with a fingertip, which, in my experience, is probably the biggest leap they'll have to make.
Is that any help?
I'm also making the Crux a requirement for leaving the dungeon. Because they might find that exit before the final room and go "Hey, a place we can rest!" and end up leaving the Knot without being able to get back in.
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Can we assume this whole thread is a spoiler? I don't want to hide everything here.
So, has anyone come up with a good way to solvethe puzzle of opening the crux? My players enjoy puzzles and I am not paticularly fond of just making a bunch of die rolls to see if they open it. I may just write out a sequence of symbols and then let them fumble through it but I wanted to see if anyone had any other ideas?I'm a little unhappy with that solution, too. My players are one session away from finding it (I thought they'd find it last night, but the heart took longer than I thought. Well, and two fights with Sian).
What I was thinking of doing is to replace the stairway that goes nowhere with a library of runic magic. From that, their more studious characters might be able to figure out that the runes on the sides of the Crux indicate a sequence. But just numbering them 1-12 would be a stupid lock combination, so I might make them find some reference to the layers of planar realities, and have the symbols represent those planes. And if the players spend a couple hours reading in the library, they might find the symbols that represent the planes and the order you would find them if you traveled straight through (down?) them. For instance, the first lock could be the symbol of the Prime Material, so they trace that one first, it glows, and they know they're on the right track. After that, the planes would descend as air, fire, water, earth. Or the elements first, then the Prime. Any order you like, but make sure that Anvengen had a record of the order of the layers. And after you have the prime and the four elements, well, the next seven could be the seven layers of Hell. Those would have an established order of descent that wasn't subjective.
So, now instead of a few meaningless die rolls, we have the two facts they need to put together: 1) the runic symbols represent planes, and 2) the planes are layered like an onion. Or a parfait. Everybody likes parfait. They then...
In terms of equating the runes with numbers, my favorite is always monsters and body parts. Put a monster/creature that has a unique number of body parts representing the number in question and go with that.
For example, 1 = Cyclops, 2 = Human, 3 = Chimera, 4 = Dog (or some other 4-legged animal), 8 = Spider, 12 = Hydra with 12 heads... I'm sure the others can be thought of.
1: Cyclops
2: Tiefling
3: Chimera
4: Hellcat
5: Pentagram
6: A fiendish wasp
7: A rune signifying Hell (7 layers)
8: Spider
9: ??
10:??
11:??
12: 12 Headed Hydra
Help me fill in the blanks!
7: A rune signifying Hell (7 layers)Erm, doesn't Hell have 9 layers/circles?
Oh yeah. With an avatar like that, I guess you'd know.
1: Cyclops
2: Tiefling
3: Chimera
4: Hellcat
5: Pentagram
6: A fiendish wasp
7: A rune signifying Hell (7 layers)
8: Spider
9: ??
10:??
11:??
12: 12 Headed HydraHelp me fill in the blanks!
I would go for an otyugh for 3 a retriever for 8. It seems more in-theme.
For the others, how about
9: 3 cerebus hounds
10: Holy symbol of Asmodeus in a pentagram
11: Maralith stabbed by 5 swords
I think 1 should a partridge in a pear tree.
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1: Cyclops
2: Tiefling
3: Chimera
4: Hellcat
5: Pentagram
6: A fiendish wasp
7: A rune signifying Hell (7 layers)
8: Spider
9: ??
10:??
11:??
12: 12 Headed HydraHelp me fill in the blanks!
I would go for an otyugh for 3 a retriever for 8. It seems more in-theme.
For the others, how about
9: 3 cerebus hounds
10: Holy symbol of Asmodeus in a pentagram
11: Maralith stabbed by 5 swords
AWESOME!
I think I will probably use this or another thought I had...
9 Layers of Hell, 10 - symbol for Cheliax, 11 - symbol for Asmodeus, 12 - House Thrune.
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If you do this I'd increase the penalty for failing significantly, or have the images not light up on success. Players have an opportunity for pure random success as it's currently written, and that factors into the minimal damage on failure to open and the idea that the password resets itself regularly.
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I like the idea of the symbols not lighting up if I go this route. I know my group, they will not like the abstract rules of just rolling and will ask me specifically what the runes look like, etc.
Of course, I could just give them the symbols and then still have them roll for success.
As far the symbols, The Princes of Darkness book has a lot of symbols for the various lords of hell that I may use.
I don't have a solution for this, but I do have an idea.
Back in the Hogshead days there was a series of adventures called The Doomstones Campaign. It wasn't all that great, but what it DID have was papercraft models of the Doomstones to make as props.
I think that a model of the Crux to construct would be an awesome web enhancement.
I like the idea of the symbols not lighting up if I go this route.
Yeah, I'll use this as well.
1: Cyclops
2: Tiefling
3: Otyugh
4: Hellcat
5: Pentagram
6: A fiendish wasp
7: A 7 crested glacier (double whammy, Cocytus is the 7th layer after all)
8: Retriever
9: 3 cerberus hounds
10: Holy symbol of Asmodeus in a pentagram
11:Maralith stabbed by 5 swords
12: 12 Headed Hydra
I’m going to try this trick. Buy a set of the kids matching cards that are a well known game and easy to find. Since the crux is described as 12 sided, pick out 12 sets of two cards, shuffle them and then deal the 24 cards onto the table. I will then have each player attempt to find a matching set of cards. For each failure past the first, it is one failure. Every 3-5 failures, the crux sends out its fire. I think my group will enjoy the tactile “game” of figuring out the crux.
I'm thinking of using the planes angle.
Each Side representing a Symbol of...
1) Positive Energy Plane
2) Material Plane
3) Ethereal
4) Shadow
5) Negative Energy
6) Air
7) Water
8) Earth
9) Fire
10) Astral
11) The Outer Planes
12) The Unholy Symbol of Asmodeus as the last 'Stamp'
I'm thinking of using the planes angle.
Each Side representing a Symbol of...
1) Positive Energy Plane
2) Material Plane
3) Ethereal
4) Shadow
5) Negative Energy
6) Air
7) Water
8) Earth
9) Fire
10) Astral
11) The Outer Planes
12) The Unholy Symbol of Asmodeus as the last 'Stamp'
Ut how do they decide the combination?
Based on the map of the planes in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting book. pg 180.
I've got about a month or two before they get there so hopefully i can get it solidified by then.
Maybe they find a rough sketch of the map in one of the rooms during the Cornucopia? but which room, hhmmm... Or maybe Sian has it?
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Hm, I'm not sure if this is very useful to anyone, but I decided to calculate it out anyway. If you look at a standard d12, and you are given a random sequence of numbers between 1-12, there are only a certain number of sequences that could actually be traced in a continuous line. For instance, if the order was 1 and then 12, you can see there is actually no way to trace that order since they are on opposite sides of the d12. This might be relevant for when the faces of the crux "randomize to a new combination."
Let's assume our d12 is the crux. I'm assuming the first rune is a "freebie" in that you have an many chances as you want to touch each side until it lights up as correct (since simply handling the crux is the equivalent of "touching" it). Next, you have a 1/5 chance of moving your finger to the next correct adjacent side. So for example, let's say 1 is the first correct side. Then you move your finger to 10, which is the second correct side. Now, the chances of you getting the next correct side increases to 1/4 since of the 5 adjacent sides, one has already lit up (the 1). So let's say the next correct side is 2. You move your finger there. Now, your chances for getting the next correct side is 1/3, since of the 5 adjacent sides, two have already lit up (the 1 and 10). Continuing this pattern, it looks like the series 1, 10, 2, 4, 6, 5, 9, 11, 3, 8, 7, 12 (on a standard d12) is the order that gives you the highest probability of success. The probability of each of the sides is as follows: 1/1, 1/5, 1/4, 1/3, 1/3, 1/3, 1/2, 1/2, 1/2, 1/2, 1/2, 1. In case you were wondering, that means you have a 1 out of 17,280 chance of getting it right the first time!
In any case, experiment with an actual d12 and you'll see what I mean. As to how you can use this information... I have no idea :P But I figured I'd share this since I worked it out. Let me know if any of you find a better order that gives you a higher chance. I suppose one thing you could have the players go through is roll percentage dice on each face to determine if they get the correct one. Or, maybe have a sequence in your mind (like the one above) and just give them a d12 and have them trace it until they get the correct order. I wouldn't recommend switching the order every 8 failures, though, since it seems the chances of actually getting the order are actually pretty low. Although, the chances seem to improve through multiple trials, so maybe it's not so hard...
I think, at least in my minds eye, i see the 'tracing of the runes' as you trace your finger on the rune itself, but the next rune may be on ther other side and not actually touching the first one. then, you trace that rune.
I think, at least in my minds eye, i see the 'tracing of the runes' as you trace your finger on the rune itself, but the next rune may be on ther other side and not actually touching the first one. then, you trace that rune.
that would make it 1/11/x1/10*1/9
or 1/11!
that's a pretty low probability (1 in 40 million aprox)
Thinking about this in the shower this morning and I'm really unclear what the intelligence check is for - I don't really see any intelligence in opening this - just truely awesome sums of patience and lots of healing.
My group found a different way:
Janiyen said "These are ancient and powerful magical devices, there is no way they can be opened by a simple lockpick." In fact, the rogue in question had +15 on Disable Device and needed to hit a 35 DC, so it should have seemed pretty near impossible.
As I was in the middle of Janiyen's speech, the player dropped a d20 and said "Nat 20, does a 35 open it?"
Not only was Janiyen proven wrong, but he did it so fast that I as the DM, voicing Janiyen's little speech about how impossible this is, was still in mid-sentence as the crux sprang open on the table.
My question doesn't have anything to do with opening the crux but thought I would post it here rather than start a new thread.
Because the Crux is an extra-dimensional storage device and the Handy Haversack (that is discovered at the start of the Knot) is also an extra-dimensional storage device, what happens if someone (say for instance, the paladin playing in my game) tosses the Chelish Crux into the Handy Haversack? I know what happens with a Bag of Holding and a Portable Hole but does the same thing happen here? If they do rip apart and destroy each other what happens to everything in the Crux (that is vital to the plot of the next mod). I am thinking about saying that the Haversack and Crux repel each other and so cannot be place inside of the other. Thoughts?
They both function similar to bags of holding, so I'd say that you'd get the same effect as if you tried to put one bag of holding into another.
EDIT: Which looks like nothing. It's only bag/portable hole combos that are bad.
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My question doesn't have anything to do with opening the crux but thought I would post it here rather than start a new thread.
Because the Crux is an extra-dimensional storage device and the Handy Haversack (that is discovered at the start of the Knot) is also an extra-dimensional storage device, what happens if someone (say for instance, the paladin playing in my game) tosses the Chelish Crux into the Handy Haversack? I know what happens with a Bag of Holding and a Portable Hole but does the same thing happen here? If they do rip apart and destroy each other what happens to everything in the Crux (that is vital to the plot of the next mod). I am thinking about saying that the Haversack and Crux repel each other and so cannot be place inside of the other. Thoughts?
I believe the AP addresses this either in or around the description of the crux. I don't have it with me, but I think I recall it saying that it doesn't have the same effect as a portable hole & a bag of holding.
- I just assumed that if you put a handy haversack inside a bag of holding, you couldn't access the haversack until you took it out. I don't really like the idea of repelling - cause if the players think its always going to repel - what happens if they put a portable hole or
I am going to do the following:
Make 1 side of the crux a dull square
Make 1 side of the crux an ever changing image of golarion
As for the rest of the sides I'm going with the following symbols.
Taking a wrong path will still result in some kind of pain (thinking of making it (1d4 con penalty no save, lasting for 24 hours.)
Once the crux is open the dull square will light up, should anyone touch it they will instantaneously find them self inside a 12 sided cube with a shining floor, Asmodeus symbol on the top and all the other sides filled with all the other symbols (perception to notice that they are mirrored). Here the person can engange in a mental battle against a remnant of the previous master to change to faith of the crux (the god it belongs to) and after that is done another path or riddle can be chosen for the 10 other sides.
This will make the crux feel like a much more powerfull item perhaps even an artifact, as such I will probably not allow people to just smash it or disable device it so easily.
What do you guys think about the whole idea?
Any suggestions?
That's a cool idea.
Are the images in your link in order?
1 2 3
4 5 6
7 8 9
??
Also, those plus your Dull Square and Golarion sides totals only 11 sides.
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alyflex, I like this idea a lot! Although, I'm only counting 11 sides (9 from the picture, 1 dull square, and 1 Golarion image).
Here the person can engange in a mental battle against a remnant of the previous master to change to faith of the crux (the god it belongs to) and after that is done another path or riddle can be chosen for the 10 other sides.
I'm a bit confused by this. Since "the final image of Asmodeus can only be activated by someone who worships him," how does one change the faith of the crux? Wouldn't the faith of the crux (or the previous master) always be be Asmodeus?
Are the images in your link in order?
1 2 3
4 5 6
7 8 9??
Also, those plus your Dull Square and Golarion sides totals only 11 sides.
The only order I was thinking of was that the Dull side and the final side would be opposite each other, the rest would just be randomly scattered around.
When I thought this crux up I thought of the 9 layers of hell + final side + dull side. Problem is that the symbol for the ninth layer is the same asmodeus symbol so gonna have to think of one more thing.
An idea I just thought off while writing this could be to include house thrunes symbol. The correct sequence would then be:
Golarion
House Thrune
8 layers of hell + final side which represent the ninth layer of hell.
House Thrune will be the second side since they are believed to be the place in golarion where the material world is closest to hell. (Besides the last master was a cleric of asmodeus instated as mayor by house thrune so it makes sense as far as I can see.
I'm a bit confused by this. Since "the final image of Asmodeus can only be activated by someone who worships him," how does one change the faith of the crux? Wouldn't the faith of the crux (or the previous master) always be be Asmodeus?
What I meant is that you have to have someone who worship whatever god is imprinted on the crux in order to open it.
When you finally get the crux open you can enter the crux by touching the dull side (which is now no longer dull but shining quite brigthly).If the dull side is touched while the crux is open, you find yourself inside a huge 12 sided room (the crux)
Inside the crux you can attempt to erase the god imprinted on the crux in order to place an imprinting of your own god.
To erase an imprinted god you have to engange in a mental battle against the previous master of the crux (the last guy who erased an imprinting in the crux and installed a new one).
How this battle is fought I havent given much thought yet.
To answer your last question: Yes the faith of the crux at the time the players find it will always be with asmodeus imprinted in it, but this can later be changed.
Thanks for the feedback guys, and I hope that clears up the few loose ends. =)
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Thanks, alyflex! I was stuck for a while on what to do for this puzzle, and your post was a huge help. I knew that everyone in my group loves puzzles, and that they would be dissatisfied with an Int check.
Here's what I did:
When the PC's opened the chest with the crux, the crux flew out and started whirling in midair. Afraid to touch it, they poked it with the rope from the mummy room, and it exploded in a blast of fire into 3 cruxes.
I had physical versions of each of these, which I threw out on the table:
*The first crux had twelve identical faces, each with a symbol of Asmodeus surrounded by, in Infernal, "Great Lord of the Ninth, I, your humble servant, entreat you..."
*The second crux was basically alyflex's, except I used a symbol for Cheliax instead of a dull or shiny face. Also, instead of an Asmodeus face there was a blank face. All of the symbols were raised buttons.
*The third crux had raised buttons on every face, and dots along each edge, that indicated which faces needed to be pressed. This is kind of hard to explain without the physical object, but here goes.
Any edge of the crux borders two faces. If one face has fewer dots than the other along that edge, that face is one of the ones that needs to be pressed. If both faces have the same number of dots, either both of those faces need to be pressed, or neither one of them does.
If anyone cares how I made the third one:
I numbered the faces of Crux 3 in standard d12 fashion, though this numbering was not present on the crux in the game, it was just to make it easier for everyone to refer to a specific face.
*The solution to the first crux was to pray to Asmodeus while holding it.
*The solution to the second crux was to press the buttons Golarion, Cheliax, Thrune, then the Archdukes in order, ending with the blank button representing Asmodeus.
*The solution to the third crux was to press the 6 faces indicated by the dot pattern in the proper order (the order seemed arbitrary unless combined with Crux 2, but was brute-forceable).
Solving the first or third crux caused it to combine with the second one. Solving the second crux caused it to combine with the third one.
Taking the crux out of the Asmodean knot combined all three pieces automatically.
The solution to the combined crux was the solution of the parts together: to pray to Asmodeus while holding it, then press the six buttons indicated by the dots in the infernal hierarchy order (as in Crux 2). Solving the combined crux opens it.
Any button press does 1d6 fire damage, correct or not. Correct button presses stay in, but any incorrect press causes all of the previously pressed buttons to pop out.
How it played out, in character:
The low int, low-wis sorcerer immediately set about trying to brute-force Crux 3. He made some progress.
The summoner used Knowledge (planes) to figure out what the symbols on Crux 2 were, and summoned lantern archons to cast aid on the sorcerer. The summoner's Eidolon asked Anvengen's unholy symbol for help, and
the cleric responded by telling him to pray to Asmodeus. The eidolon took this literally and did so, solving the Crux 1.
Meanwhile, the spymaster/security expert figured out Crux 3. The sorcerer was disappointed that he was not able to prove that jumping in to a problem is better than "thinking too much", and the spymaster stood there looking smug.
At least, until a screeching erinyes head appeared.
Oh, and, by the way, smurf.
...
This sounds very good. But as you say it's kindda hard to imagine without the crux, do you have any pictures of the crux you made? and perhaps a few words about how you made it. I have considered making one too.
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do you have any pictures of the crux you made? and perhaps a few words about how you made it.
I took a picture of each crux, but I don't know how to insert pictures into a post.
I googled "dodecahedron template" and copied the pattern onto posterboard using a pentagon template. I added tabs off of the edges so that it would be easier to put together.
I had some issues getting the dodecahedron to stay together--I ended up using copious amounts of packing tape.
In the picture, there are numbers on Crux 2 as well.
The numbers on Crux 2 show how Crux 2 and Crux 3 merge. For example, the dots from face 1 of Crux 3 appear on Face 1 of Crux 2.
I took a picture of each crux, but I don't know how to insert pictures into a post.
You could perhaps just post a link to a site where you upload the pictures?, I would really love to see the actual dices.
I believe ImageShack can be used to upload the pictures if you need a site http://imageshack.us/
I'd like to use solving the crux as a lead to get the party to leave Westcrown so that I can integrate "From Sea to Shore". Both are at about the right spot level-wise, and I'd like to get the PCs out of Westcrown for a bit.
I'm thinking that I'll have it discovered that Vheed's Major Domo left Westcrown after he went missing and returned to the small fishing village off of Cheliax's that he had left years before. I'll also have to plant the thought that the Major Domo might well have known something about the combination for the Crux. But it all seems like a weak link to me.
Any good ideas why the PC's might need to travel to a small fishing village in Cheliax to get help opening the Crux (or otherwise entering the Lodge?)
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I'd like to use solving the crux as a lead to get the party to leave Westcrown so that I can integrate "From Sea to Shore". Both are at about the right spot level-wise, and I'd like to get the PCs out of Westcrown for a bit.
I'm thinking that I'll have it discovered that Vheed's Major Domo left Westcrown after he went missing and returned to the small fishing village off of Cheliax's that he had left years before. I'll also have to plant the thought that the Major Domo might well have known something about the combination for the Crux. But it all seems like a weak link to me.
Any good ideas why the PC's might need to travel to a small fishing village in Cheliax to get help opening the Crux (or otherwise entering the Lodge?)
If you look at the map, just north of the Cutlass Cove, there is a small gathering of houses. I made that into a small fishing village with poor people and mostly the people were outlaws, staying there because they were outside Dottari jurisdiction, and they hadn't done enough to bother the Hellknights.
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I created some player hand outs which can be used to construct a physical Chelish crux. Just cut along the pentagon lines. I riffed off the above ideas, changes mostly due to me hunting for images that looked cool / embossed well.
Tiefling
Fates
Bone Devil
Unicorn
Skull
Angel wings
Spider
Layers of Hell
Devil star
Marilith
Asmodeus
Key:
1 = Unicorn (one horn)
2 = Tiefling (two horns)
3 = The Fates (3 of 'em)
4 = Hellhound (4 legs)
5 = Bone devil (4 appendages, one weapon)
6 = Skull head (the 6 little squid legs)
7 = Devil star (7 negative spaces)
8 = Spider (8 legs)
9 = Layers of Hell (9 layers)
10 = Asmodeus ( 5 points, 5 lines)
11 = Angel Wings ( each Wing is the number one)
12 = Marilith (6 arms, 6 weapons)
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I love your design Marie and sozin :) thanks for posting!
I intend to take it up a notch: I intend to use Technic Lego in my model to make the emblems actually rotate in relation to eachother.
I made the first google hit on 'dodecahedron template' using a template on cardbord, and pasted it together with duct tape. However, due to my math fail, I made the template with a 3 inch radius...And now I have a rock-solid gargantuan D12, or a large Chelish Crux. It actually looks pretty damn awesome if I sayu so myself :D
(I couldn't believe how strong a simple cardbord and duct tape D12 is - it's a foot high but feels like concrete! I almost feel as if I took a Create Wondrous Item feat somewhere)
Now that the shape is finished, I intend to use Lego Technics to construct a Chelish Crux that actually works; I want to put one emblem on each side, which connects to an axle that leads inside, and all axles are connected to eachother in the middle through cogs and a little gearbox, so that they all respond if you turn one side of the D12 die.
I hope to add a differential or two, and then I'm sure to amaze the unsuspecting players.
pics will follow :)
I love your design Marie and sozin :) thanks for posting!
I intend to take it up a notch: I intend to use Technic Lego in my model to make the emblems actually rotate in relation to eachother.
I made the first google hit on 'dodecahedron template' using a template on cardbord, and pasted it together with duct tape. However, due to my math fail, I made the template with a 3 inch radius...And now I have a rock-solid gargantuan D12, or a large Chelish Crux. It actually looks pretty damn awesome if I sayu so myself :D
(I couldn't believe how strong a simple cardbord and duct tape D12 is - it's a foot high but feels like concrete! I almost feel as if I took a Create Wondrous Item feat somewhere)Now that the shape is finished, I intend to use Lego Technics to construct a Chelish Crux that actually works; I want to put one emblem on each side, which connects to an axle that leads inside, and all axles are connected to eachother in the middle through cogs and a little gearbox, so that they all respond if you turn one side of the D12 die.
I hope to add a differential or two, and then I'm sure to amaze the unsuspecting players.
pics will follow :)
Did this ever work?
