To supply some context to the OP's postings. He's running Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. He's apparently in the Crater Ridge Mines portion of the adventure.
There are almost no non-evil creatures/beings in this place. Even the elementals are evil (i.e. Elemental Evil). The paladin will indeed be a shining beacon in this situation.
The key, folks, is to mob the one-hit wonder with a mob of underlings and keep him too busy to get at the evil priests and whatnot.
To supply some context to the OP's postings. He's running Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. He's apparently in the Crater Ridge Mines portion of the adventure.
There are almost no non-evil creatures/beings in this place. Even the elementals are evil (i.e. Elemental Evil). The paladin will indeed be a shining beacon in this situation.
The key, folks, is to mob the one-hit wonder with a mob of underlings and keep him too busy to get at the evil priests and whatnot.
I often have one of my minions run away to tell the higher-ups what is going on. Then they can change how things are being done to account for those meddling PC's.
To supply some context to the OP's postings. He's running Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. He's apparently in the Crater Ridge Mines portion of the adventure.
There are almost no non-evil creatures/beings in this place. Even the elementals are evil (i.e. Elemental Evil). The paladin will indeed be a shining beacon in this situation.
The key, folks, is to mob the one-hit wonder with a mob of underlings and keep him too busy to get at the evil priests and whatnot.
Which is a reason why I don't use modules. Using modules tends to make one forget that one is GM and in charge of the world, not the other way around.
Having said that, if the OP is using a module, and it's a cakewalk, CHANGE IT UP!
There is no rule anywhere that says you have to fallow the module exactly in every jot and tittle.
Give the evil CR 7 dragon some CR 5 evil followers. A band of 20 kobolds if you really want the dragon to be a nasty fight. The dragon doesn't care if his breath weapon hits his kobold followers. And that paladin may be able to kill the dragon in 2 rounds... if he can get to him. It's awful hard to run past 20 kobolds (the AoO alone are enough to pound the Palli into Pallibutter and jelly).
Even nastier? Give the CR 7 dragon some buddies. Two CR 7's is a CR8. Four CR 7's is a CR 9. Oops, the Palli only has 3 smites per day? One, two, three... oops. Four evil sibling dragons all taking turns breathing one after another over the party will take care of a smart alec palli in no time.
I was going to comment on the Archer pally, our GM is running a game and having a problem dealing with the one we have, and yes he rocks the BBEG! I see that smite was created for your typical Melee pally, and applied to a range focused pally he just destroys.
I actually dont understand why people think paladin archers are that good, especially if its a melee paladin pulling one out. The paladin in this thread would have gone from
So at level 7 he attacked the dragon:
+17/+12
He dealt
d12+24 damage
With each hit. No damage reduction.to something like this (with +4 dex buff and 12 base dex):
+14/+9 (+7 BAB, +3 dex, +1 magic, +3 cha)
He would deal
d8+15 (+14 smite +1 magic) damage
With each hit. No damage reductionwich is really not that good, and would definately not be enough to blast through 140 hp in 2 rounds. Its only a measly 25 or so DPR.
This does not show the potential. Our pally is lvl 9 halfling, with 18 dex and Cha. With magic items its 20 to each. Feats include: Deadly Aim, Rapid shot, Multi shot, Point blank shot, and precise shot. He has a +3 bow.
So his attack is BAB + DEX + Magic + Size + Special = 18/13
When he smited our BBEG, Actived: deadly aim,rapid shot, multishot, was in range of Point blank shot, his attack looked like:
+19 / 2d6 +40
+19 / 1d6 +20
+14 / 1d6 +20
Dmg comes from PointBlankShot(1), DeadlyAim(6), Smite(9), Weapon(3), Str(+1)(compositebow)
We do a good job of keeping him out of combat so he doesnt draw AoO when he fires. And he does more dmg than rest of the party. Our GM already said he is going to come down hard on his "Code" to try and midigate the dmg, also he is having to redesign encounters to deal with him. I think the trouble this causes the GM shows that as an archer smite is too powerful.
I agree. We can't have archery becoming a valid combat method after all.
I agree. We can't have archery becoming a valid combat method after all.
Way to be reasonable about it. There's a difference between being valid in combat and being overpowering.
I really don't see why the paladin needs to deal double smite damage against evil dragons, undead and demons. He's already getting a big advantage over them with regular smite alone.
I agree. We can't have archery becoming a valid combat method after all.
I dont mind archery becoming a valid combat method, I just dont think when they made smite evil, they thought about people combining it with Archery. Also similar effects could be gotten from TWF, its the number of attacks that makes the increase in dmg so scary.
I agree. We can't have archery becoming a valid combat method after all.Way to be reasonable about it. There's a difference between being valid in combat and being overpowering.
PC: "I shoot 3 monsters from across the room for +80 damage."
DM: "That's too powerful."PC: "OK, I walk up and hit them in the face with a mace for +80 damage."
DM: "Better but still too powerful."
PC: "I roll a %&$*ing Cleric and make them die with a single spell."
DM: "Much better."
I am not being unreasonable, I'm just not blinded by the "Omg, they are doing +80 damage if all their attacks hit by using their special ability! Nerffff!" Bullocks. Archery is already nerfed. If you want to use bows, you have to spend extra money to add your Str mod to the damage. There is no way to add your Dex mod to the damage. And you can't do that at all with Crossbows. Oh, and if you have a Str penalty, it subtracts from damage anyway. Sure, you can use thrown weapons instead, but the range is a fraction of even the shortest bow range. And you have to burn a feat to get a full attack from Crossbow or Thrown Weapons anyway.
I really don't see why the paladin needs to deal double smite damage against evil dragons, undead and demons.
Because it's a bleeding special ability he gets against, at most, 7 monsters a day.
Let's change the Rogue's Sneak Attack to work like that and see how the uproar carries.He's already getting a big advantage over them with regular smite alone.
Right. He's good at killing really evil things X/day. That's WAY too good. Let's make him blind and take away his Detect Evil so he can't figure out who is Evil and who isn't.
I agree. We can't have archery becoming a valid combat method after all.Way to be reasonable about it. There's a difference between being valid in combat and being overpowering.
I really don't see why the paladin needs to deal double smite damage against evil dragons, undead and demons. He's already getting a big advantage over them with regular smite alone.
When a Paladin is doing his normal smite he is still outdamaged by the fighter. So you think a conditional bonus that is outpaced by other classes and can only be done a set number of times per day against a single target is sufficient for a class' primary ability?
The paladin has all sorts of problems in a normal campaign. Many opponents are not subject to his smite, he is forced to make hard descisions regarding party course of action, and nothing he does including normal smite evil is particulary special in any category. He is out damaged, out healed, out casted, out skilled, other classes get a better pet, fighters can get better AC. When he ISNT smiting in combat he is an NPC class [warrior] with Lay on Hands.
The ONLY thing the current paladin does best is lay the hurt on evil dragons, outsiders and undead. Thats why he needs the double smite damage. Because without it, there is nothing the paladin does best. Not to mention the paladin, the Holy Knight, pinacle of righteous fury SHOULD shine particularly brightly in front of embodiements of evil. That is what they are supposed to do. Dragons, outsiders and undead seem like a good set of examples to me.
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Wow, there sure is a lot of snark-dust in the air today.
Just in case anyone missed it, and thinks I'm one of those DMs who constantly try to do over the paladin in any group, either with a 'Warriors can't have nice things' mentality, or with retarded interpretations of their code, both myself and lastnightleft were active on the Alpha/Beta boards, fighting the paladin's corner, to give them the respect they'd been lacking in 3.0/3.5.
My first 3.0 PC was a paladin, ported over, mid-campaign from 2nd Ed, so I know what it's like to have your PC crippled, losing basic 1st-level functionality (the whole Mounted Combat feat chain used to be summed up in one NWP, remember), and having to slooooowly buy back mundane options with ones scarce general feats, while the Wizards got to do everything they'd always done, but now with jam on top.
During the Alpha/Beta/extra bits discussions, there were a lot of options thrown about. And, as is often the case when you open the floor for free contributions, we got a lot more options than we bargained for, some good, some not-so-good, but all aiming to make an iconic class better able to do its job.
Smite in particular, spawned a thread that ran well over a thousand posts; at various stages in its evolution, it's been flat damage, it's been bonus dice, it's been one or the other dependent on target type, it's been 'roll and ignore 1s, for fiends', it's been normal damage with kicker effects, it's been 'bonus attacks/round to avoid the whiff-factor', it's been rounds/day, it's been encounters/day, it's been enemies/day, it's been duration/use, it's been 'last guy standing'/use, round and round till the designers heads were spinning.
So, no, I am not here to 'nerf' the paladin.
BUT, in the case of one small aspect of smiting, I believe we may have just gone a smidgen too far.
The new rules were debated in a specific order, and when the classes were being developed, right near the beginning, it probably seemed necessary to give smites the punch they needed to break through those pesky DR.
Later, the general combat rules were thrashed out, and it became standard rules to allow DR to be pierced far more easily, with normal plusses counting as special materials.
Thus, we have two new rules, both attacking the problem from different ends, three, if you count the Divine Weapon Bond ability to simulate several weapon qualities, four, if you consider that just by increasing damage in the first place, you are 'punching through' DR more effectively.
The question is not 'Is this flavourful?'; but 'Do we need so many competing flavours in the same dish?'. Do we need DR to be squashed from so many directions? Given the changes in later Combat chapter, is it time to revisit the early Class rules, and rethink some?
I agree. We can't have archery becoming a valid combat method after all.Way to be reasonable about it. There's a difference between being valid in combat and being overpowering.PC: "I shoot 3 monsters from across the room for +80 damage."
DM: "That's too powerful."
PC: "OK, I walk up and hit them in the face with a mace for +80 damage."
DM: "Better but still too powerful."
PC: "I roll a %&$*ing Cleric and make them die with a single spell."
DM: "Much better."
I agree with the DM, that is much better. The melee paladin puts himself at considerable risk by going into melee and it also takes time (which the ranged one can use to just fire away) and the cleric's chances of bypassing both the spell resistance and the saving throw of the BBEG are exceedingly slim.
The ranged paladin can just sit back and pluck away full attacks with tremendous damage bonuses from far away with no saving throws to reduce damage. Damage reduction doesn't even apply.
I am not being unreasonable, I'm just not blinded by the "Omg, they are doing +80 damage if all their attacks hit by using their special ability! Nerffff!" Bullocks. Archery is already nerfed. If you want to use bows, you have to spend extra money to add your Str mod to the damage. There is no way to add your Dex mod to the damage. And you can't do that at all with Crossbows. Oh, and if you have a Str penalty, it subtracts from damage anyway. Sure, you can use thrown weapons instead, but the range is a fraction of even the shortest bow range. And you have to burn a feat to get a full attack from Crossbow or Thrown Weapons anyway.
I agree. Throwing weapons and crossbows suck bad. But that's not the point of the thread.
And please, the extra money to add your STR mod is not a large amount.
I really don't see why the paladin needs to deal double smite damage against evil dragons, undead and demons.Because it's a bleeding special ability he gets against, at most, 7 monsters a day.
Let's change the Rogue's Sneak Attack to work like that and see how the uproar carries.
Sneak attack also has limitations. You have to be either flanking or attacking a flat footed creature and that can be a real hassle to set up. I know the paladin can only smite a few times a day, but that doesn't change the fact that he can make otherwise climactic fights trivial, which is a problem.
He's already getting a big advantage over them with regular smite alone.Right. He's good at killing really evil things X/day. That's WAY too good. Let's make him blind and take away his Detect Evil so he can't figure out who is Evil and who isn't.
And that has nothing to do with anything I said.
I agree with the DM, that is much better.
I think you have made my point for me and I don't think I need to respond further.
When a Paladin is doing his normal smite he is still outdamaged by the fighter. So you think a conditional bonus that is outpaced by other classes and can only be done a set number of times per day against a single target is sufficient for a class' primary ability?I agree. We can't have archery becoming a valid combat method after all.Way to be reasonable about it. There's a difference between being valid in combat and being overpowering.
I really don't see why the paladin needs to deal double smite damage against evil dragons, undead and demons. He's already getting a big advantage over them with regular smite alone.
No, as a matter a fact the paladin is doing roughly the same amount of damage the fighter is doing. And he also has a lot of things the fighter can't do, such as healing himself every round as a swift action.
The paladin has all sorts of problems in a normal campaign. Many opponents are not subject to his smite, he is forced to make hard descisions regarding party course of action, and nothing he does including normal smite evil is particulary special in any category. He is out damaged, out healed, out casted, out skilled, other classes get a better pet, fighters can get better AC. When he ISNT smiting in combat he is an NPC class [warrior] with Lay on Hands.
That's not entirely true, he can set his sword on fire and do a lot of things that set him above just an NPC warrior. And yes, he does have a few problems in a normal campaign. But that doesn't justify having him be completely overpowering in other situations.
The ONLY thing the current paladin does best is lay the hurt on evil dragons, outsiders and undead. Thats why he needs the double smite damage. Because without it, there is nothing the paladin does best. Not to mention the paladin, the Holy Knight, pinacle of righteous fury SHOULD shine particularly brightly in front of embodiements of evil. That is what they are supposed to do. Dragons, outsiders and undead seem like a good set of examples to me.
No, he is quite adept at hurting evil in general (as I said earlier, on par with the fighter, if not slightly better), and can hold his own when fighting non-evil enemies.
I'd also like to make myself perfectly clear when I say I have no problem with melee paladins dealing double smite damage against super evil monsters. It's the ranged ones that are the problem.
I think you have made my point for me and I don't think I need to respond further.
I agree with the DM, that is much better.
I'd love to hear how I made your point for you, and while you're at it, I'd love to hear what spell the cleric used to kill the dragon instantly, because I can't find one that fits the bill.
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both myself and lastnightleft were active on the Alpha/Beta boards, fighting the paladin's corner, to give them the respect they'd been lacking in 3.0/3.5.
Thanks for standing up for me :), it's good to know some people still remember me from that time. It's funny because for a long time after people thought paladin was either the only class I played, or my favorite class.
Honestly I'd much rather the paladin have more smites then deal double damage against types. And in my games that's how I houserule it, giving them a number of extra smites equal to their cha. This does two things, A) it makes low level paladins use smites on more than just the desperate last ditch effort or BBEGs and B) negates the need for double damage against types because he's capable of bringing the pain more.
But honestly speaking, I hate that paladins deal double damage vs. types. I think it's antithetical to the paladins idealism and encourages hoarding the smites even more than the regular I only have x per day, now it's I only have x per day and he's not undead. And this has nothing to do with the amount of damage paladins deal, or their balance between classes. On the other hand it does quell the complaints you get when paladins wreck an encounter when a DM just doesn't realize or isn't prepared for just how good a paladins smite is.
I haven't seen an issue with Paladin being too powerful. The Paladin is power no doubt there when facing an evil outsider or dragon but how often do you do that? Also how stupid is the dragon or outsider that they can't see the "I'm a Paladin" sign due to the aura and take measures to avoid the confrontation directly. Also when compared to what I've seen other classes do, the fighter included against dragons the Paladin is only bit better.
I'd love to hear how I made your point for you, and while you're at it, I'd love to hear what spell the cleric used to kill the dragon instantly, because I can't find one that fits the bill.I think you have made my point for me and I don't think I need to respond further.
I agree with the DM, that is much better.
I was being facetious, but the assertions that Smite Evil is overpowered is joke when doing any sort of comparison to spell casters.
How many people in the party can actually make use of this ability? Do you have an all melee party or something?
You sir are mistaken.
Paladin gives out Aura of Justice to his friends. He's a bowadin, so he gives it to the sorcerer and the wizard.
His sorcerer friend chooses the demon overlord as his smite target.
Grabs his rod of quicken metamagic. The overlord laughs-- what could this puny sorcerer do with a 3rd level spell or lower that could even threaten the overlord? What could the wizard do to threaten him either?
Quickened magic missile and magic missile.
Note:
At 11th level, a paladin can expend two
uses of her smite evil ability to grant the ability to smite evil
to all allies within 10 feet, using her bonuses. Allies must
use this smite evil ability by the start of the paladin’s next
turn and the bonuses last for 1 minute. Using this ability is a
free action. Evil creatures gain no benefit from this ability.
As a swift action, the paladin (in this case, the sorcerer) chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite.
So... 1d4+1+22 minimum. 5 missiles, so 23x5 = 115+5d4. If they quicken magic missile, it could easily be 230+10d4 damage.
So, two casters with rods of quicken metamagic and an Aura of Justice basically carpet bomb the demon for up to 460+20d4 damage.
It also ignores DR!
Goodbye, evil outsider...
The assertions that Smite Evil is overpowered is a joke when doing any sort of comparison to spell casters.
+1
No, as a matter a fact the paladin is doing roughly the same amount of damage the fighter is doing. And he also has a lot of things the fighter can't do, such as healing himself every round as a swift action.
The fighter is also doing many things the paladin cannot do since there arent enough feats for strictly doing damage to fill all of a fighter's feat slots. Whether it's movement stuff like dodge, mobility, and step up, or combat manuevers, or something else, the fighter still has their own tricks.
And even if the damage is roughly the same, the paladin does it against 1 target x times per day. The fighter does it every attack. Which in generally says, why am I a paladin? Yes he can heal, but clerics do that better, so again, why be a paladin? There should be something you are the best at.
That's not entirely true, he can set his sword on fire and do a lot of things that set him above just an NPC warrior. And yes, he does have a few problems in a normal campaign. But that doesn't justify having him be completely overpowering in other situations.
He isnt completely overpowering, what he is, is very strong in a very specific situation. 1 bad guy who is undead, a dragon or an evil outsider.
No, he is quite adept at hurting evil in general (as I said earlier, on par with the fighter, if not slightly better), and can hold his own when fighting non-evil enemies.
He can hold his own, but is considerably weaker (almost 20 points of damage weaker if i remember correctly from the DPR olympics thread). Which means in most campaigns, you spend alot of the time you are fighting at a much lower ability then a fighter, or even a melee cleric.
I'd also like to make myself perfectly clear when I say I have no problem with melee paladins dealing double smite damage against super evil monsters. It's the ranged ones that are the problem.
I dont have any great love for ranged smiting, at least not free and clear (there was a feat for it in 3.5 I think). But that is very different from disputing the strength of smite in the first place. The statement I originally refuted was
"I really don't see why the paladin needs to deal double smite damage against evil dragons, undead and demons. He's already getting a big advantage over them with regular smite alone."
Regular smite brings him EQUAL to the other classes, its not a big advantage. Its only when he faces one of those 3 types of evil enemies that he gets a big advantage.
If you believe that this restriction should apply only to ranged smites, I probably wouldnt refute it, archery is really strong in pathfinder anyway, but there is no justification for removing it from the paladin entirely.
How many people in the party can actually make use of this ability? Do you have an all melee party or something?You sir are mistaken.
Paladin gives out Aura of Justice to his friends. He's a bowadin, so he gives it to the sorcerer and the wizard.
His sorcerer friend chooses the demon overlord as his smite target.
Grabs his rod of quicken metamagic. The overlord laughs-- what could this puny sorcerer do with a 3rd level spell or lower that could even threaten the overlord? What could the wizard do to threaten him either?
Quickened magic missile and magic missile.
Note:
At 11th level, a paladin can expend two
uses of her smite evil ability to grant the ability to smite evil
to all allies within 10 feet, using her bonuses. Allies must
use this smite evil ability by the start of the paladin’s next
turn and the bonuses last for 1 minute. Using this ability is a
free action. Evil creatures gain no benefit from this ability.As a swift action, the paladin (in this case, the sorcerer) chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite.So... 1d4+1+22 minimum. 5 missiles, so 23x5 = 115+5d4. If they quicken magic missile, it could easily be 230+10d4 damage.
So, two casters with rods of quicken metamagic and an Aura of Justice basically carpet bomb the demon for up to 460+20d4 damage.
It also ignores DR!
Goodbye, evil outsider...
+1
The assertions that Smite Evil is overpowered is a joke when doing any sort of comparison to spell casters.
I honestly dont think smite evil is supposed to work with things that dont require attack rolls. I admit i never thought of aura of justice being used this way. I wonder if it was intended to do as much. Also, a small nitpick, magic missile would ignore DR anyway, though it wouldnt ignore SR.
im not really sure the magic misile would work out this way
So... 1d4+1+22 minimum. 5 missiles, so 23x5 = 115+5d4. If they quicken magic missile, it could easily be 230+10d4 damage.
I think you would just apply the +22 damage to the single spell, bot to every misile it casts. But that would probably be for a PF guy to comment on. but +22 per spell dosnt seem as rediculous as +110.
But lets be honest, Aura of Justice is ridiculously powerfull. Easily the best buff in the game, and maybe i should throw out some numbers to convince you guys. Bah... guess that'll have to be tomorrow.
on a completely different note
This does not show the potential. Our pally is lvl 9 halfling, with 18 dex and Cha. With magic items its 20 to each. Feats include: Deadly Aim, Rapid shot, Multi shot, Point blank shot, and precise shot. He has a +3 bow.
So his attack is BAB + DEX + Magic + Size + Special = 18/13
When he smited our BBEG, Actived: deadly aim,rapid shot, multishot, was in range of Point blank shot, his attack looked like:
+19 / 2d6 +40
+19 / 1d6 +20
+14 / 1d6 +20Dmg comes from PointBlankShot(1), DeadlyAim(6), Smite(9), Weapon(3), Str(+1)(compositebow)
We do a good job of keeping him out of combat so he doesnt draw AoO when he fires. And he does more dmg than rest of the party. Our GM already said he is going to come down hard on his "Code" to try and midigate the dmg, also he is having to redesign encounters to deal with him. I think the trouble this causes the GM shows that as an archer smite is too powerful.
What i meant by my calculations, was simply that if you want a melee paladin to be less effective, then let the dragon fly and let him use his bow. That makes him almost no threat.
I didnt mean that archer paladins in any way is a bad way to give out huge damage, if that is the way you specialize. But i doubt they will outshine the rangers damage at ranged, (if we let him have favored enemy what ever the paladin also fights), they would probably come out about the same in damage, so not really overpowered.
If you raelly want to look at an OP character, try to go with the shapeshifter Dire Tiger druid and companion. He puts out more single target damage at lvl 10 than anything else by a wide margin. 130 DPR or something like it. (just gets cought up by the spell casters around lvl 15 and then just plane sucks)
Edit: fixed my quote
I dont have any great love for for ranged smiting, at least not free and clear (there was a feat for it in 3.5 I think). But that is very different from disputing the strength of smite in the first place. The statement I originally refuted was"I really don't see why the paladin needs to deal double smite damage against evil dragons, undead and demons. He's already getting a big advantage over them with regular smite alone."
Regular smite brings him EQUAL to the other classes, its not a big advantage. Its only when he faces one of those 3 types of evil enemies that he gets a big advantage.
If you believe that this restriction should apply only to ranged smites, I probably wouldnt refute it, archery is really strong in pathfinder anyway, but there is no justification for removing it from the paladin entirely.
Then we're agreed, I guess!
I'd love to hear how I made your point for you, and while you're at it, I'd love to hear what spell the cleric used to kill the dragon instantly, because I can't find one that fits the bill.You're not looking very hard.
The situation mentioned had a 7th level party, the only spell he could have gotten by that level would be Charm Monster, and that's only if he had the charm domain. And it's something he'd be able to use once per day at a -4 penalty (in combat).
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The situation mentioned had a 7th level party, the only spell he could have gotten by that level would be Charm Monster, and that's only if he had the charm domain. And it's something he'd be able to use once per day at a -4 penalty (in combat).
Okay, I missed that. I still found one spell. Shall I continue looking?
I'll mention Shivering Touch, but even I don't allow that one as written.
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im not really sure the magic misile would work out this way
So... 1d4+1+22 minimum. 5 missiles, so 23x5 = 115+5d4. If they quicken magic missile, it could easily be 230+10d4 damage.I think you would just apply the +22 damage to the single spell, bot to every misile it casts. But that would probably be for a PF guy to comment on. but +22 per spell dosnt seem as rediculous as +110.
Depends on if you count all five missles as separate rolls at 1d4+1 per or together as one roll at 5d4+5.
How many people in the party can actually make use of this ability? Do you have an all melee party or something?You sir are mistaken.
Paladin gives out Aura of Justice to his friends. He's a bowadin, so he gives it to the sorcerer and the wizard.
His sorcerer friend chooses the demon overlord as his smite target.
Grabs his rod of quicken metamagic. The overlord laughs-- what could this puny sorcerer do with a 3rd level spell or lower that could even threaten the overlord? What could the wizard do to threaten him either?
Quickened magic missile and magic missile.
Note:
At 11th level, a paladin can expend two
uses of her smite evil ability to grant the ability to smite evil
to all allies within 10 feet, using her bonuses. Allies must
use this smite evil ability by the start of the paladin’s next
turn and the bonuses last for 1 minute. Using this ability is a
free action. Evil creatures gain no benefit from this ability.As a swift action, the paladin (in this case, the sorcerer) chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite.So... 1d4+1+22 minimum. 5 missiles, so 23x5 = 115+5d4. If they quicken magic missile, it could easily be 230+10d4 damage.
So, two casters with rods of quicken metamagic and an Aura of Justice basically carpet bomb the demon for up to 460+20d4 damage.
It also ignores DR!
Goodbye, evil outsider...
+1
The assertions that Smite Evil is overpowered is a joke when doing any sort of comparison to spell casters.
couple of problems with that. Smite applies to attack rolls not spells. So you can't use it on Magic Missile but even if you could it DR doesn't apply to spells but SR sure does. Smite doesn't bypass SR. Now Scorching Ray, that's an attack roll and you could apply +22 per ray. Now that's just nasty.
Personally I wouldn't allow that in my game. I'd house rule it has to be melee attack. same goes for ranged attacks with smite. Not in my game.
im not really sure the magic misile would work out this way
So... 1d4+1+22 minimum. 5 missiles, so 23x5 = 115+5d4. If they quicken magic missile, it could easily be 230+10d4 damage.I think you would just apply the +22 damage to the single spell, bot to every misile it casts. But that would probably be for a PF guy to comment on. but +22 per spell dosnt seem as rediculous as +110.Depends on if you count all five missles as separate rolls at 1d4+1 per or together as one roll at 5d4+5.
The Evoker's bonus damage only affects each target once for MM. I would treat it the same way. Scorching Ray I'm not sure about though, since your making seperate touch attacks. I think the bonus damage applies to each :)
I didnt mean that archer paladins in any way is a bad way to give out huge damage, if that is the way you specialize. But i doubt they will outshine the rangers damage at ranged, (if we let him have favored enemy what ever the paladin also...
My comment was how it can disrupt the game, not having the Rangers favorite enemy as the BBEG is not hard to do. Little more tricky for him not to be evil. While the ranger might be better all around archer, when the paladin uses his Smite...well its scary. I think the smite ability is great for 2hander or Sword and board. It gives a needed boost and they are the bane of evil. But if the paladin can manage to start stacking attacks, the dmg gets out of control. I just realized this in a game im playing. One of my fellow adventures is this halfing paladin. He strait up murders BBEG's
I didnt mean that archer paladins in any way is a bad way to give out huge damage, if that is the way you specialize. But i doubt they will outshine the rangers damage at ranged, (if we let him have favored enemy what ever the paladin also...My comment was how it can disrupt the game, not having the Rangers favorite enemy as the BBEG is not hard to do. Little more tricky for him not to be evil. While the ranger might be better all around archer, when the paladin uses his Smite...well its scary. I think the smite ability is great for 2hander or Sword and board. It gives a needed boost and they are the bane of evil. But if the paladin can manage to start stacking attacks, the dmg gets out of control. I just realized this in a game im playing. One of my fellow adventures is this halfing paladin. He strait up murders BBEG's
But Smite isn't powerful if they are just evil. Its nice, but in no way broken. Its only really powerful against Dragons, Demons, and Undead. Its really hard to find a ranger who doesn't have at least 1 of those as a favored enemy. And then the ranger can pick human and really mess with you in most campaigns. The ranger is harder to screw over in a campaign, since he can customize for what you will eventually be fighting. Its easy to run a campaign thats not against evil creatures.
The situation mentioned had a 7th level party, the only spell he could have gotten by that level would be Charm Monster, and that's only if he had the charm domain. And it's something he'd be able to use once per day at a -4 penalty (in combat).Okay, I missed that. I still found one spell. Shall I continue looking?
I'll mention Shivering Touch, but even I don't allow that one as written.
Enervation should be fun. No saving throw. Spell resistance yes, but I doubt the dragon has SR before Young Adult.
Guys.
A limited number of times per day, the paladin can do damage almost equal to a fighter.
And against very specific targets he can do MORE damage then a fighter.
Obviously, wizards and clerics should be buffed.
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smite is too powerful, period. too powerful for summons and too powerful for paladins. when you have a paladin and summoner in every game, that should tell you something. im nerfing smite by disregarding the double smite damage vs evil outsiders evil dragons and undead. summons will get the one round smite the half celestial gets. bypassing DR is a powerful enough ability without the super-sized damage< just too much! (that's not talking about the bonus to hit and ac!)
also the standard action summoning for summoners is broken as well< needs fixing.
smite is too powerful, period. too powerful for summons and too powerful for paladins. when you have a paladin and summoner in every game, that should tell you something. im nerfing smite by disregarding the double smite damage vs evil outsiders evil dragons and undead. summons will get the one round smite the half celestial gets. bypassing DR is a powerful enough ability without the super-sized damage< just too much! (that's not talking about the bonus to hit and ac!)
also the standard action summoning for summoners is broken as well< needs fixing.
Have you been reading the post that show all of the paladin's negatives?
Have you even seen a pally in real play?If you have what happened to make you afraid of it?
Sometimes I want to DM for some of these supposedly super powered paladins. Either my players are idiots for not breaking my games or I am a great DM.
Edit: Forget great. I must be a god among DM's, and it must be my godly abilities keeping paladins in check.
^^ If you're keeping Paladins in check, why then, you must be... THE DEVIL! ^^
Oh, wait, this is Pathfinder - you must be the demon.
Is Smite a little too good? Probably. There are lots of things that are a little too good to be balanced. I think the real issue with smite evil is that it upsets a very problematic and all too frequent type of encounter- The Big Bad Single Creature. When it comes to the final encounter, all too often the paladin is going to nova and butcher the thing. OR If it is strong enough to stand up to the smiting paladin, the other characters are going to be overwhelmed.
The solution isn't so to tone down smiting, improved-invisible-rapid-shot-sneak-attacks or save-or-suck-and-die magic. (Although these are all a little overpowered) The solution is to add more monsters to each encounter - especially boss level encounters. If that had been the 4 Green dragons of the apocalypse, it would have been fine if one got taken out in 2 rounds by a single player.
As tempting as it is to go for the epic single creature encounter, it really brings out a lot of the little flaws and imperfections of the system.
On the subject of the bow armed Paladin..it should be noted that, according to Gods and Magic, in Golarion only Paladins of Erastil may smite with bows..it's specifically mentioned in the Gods section
On the subject of the bow armed Paladin..it should be noted that, according to Gods and Magic, in Golarion only Paladins of Erastil may smite with bows..it's specifically mentioned in the Gods section
Gods and Magic is a 3.5 book. In 3.5 NO Paladins could smite with bows. Thus, G&M is allowing ranged smites, not disallowing them.
Point taken..
However there is something to be said for limiting paladins to smiting only with their gods signature weapon..it's a flavour thing I know and not to everyones taste
Point taken..
However there is something to be said for limiting paladins to smiting only with their gods signature weapon..it's a flavour thing I know and not to everyones taste
The last thing Paladins need are MORE role-playing-induced restrictions. They're already the most RP hobbled class in the game.