I like an intense level of detail. At the same time I don't mind redrawing a map, changing city locations, and killing off major NPCs to suit my particular campaign. Which brings me to my next thought....
why do we let canon lawyers or should I say fear of canon lawyers dictate products?
Amen to that. I think that world design in RPG's over the last ten years have suffered exactly because of this.
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Canon Lawyer: Whoa the campaign guide doesn't say that island is in this particular stretch of ocean.
DM: Yeah well the campaign guide didn't also say anything about the pizza i provided for the game. Based upon the stains on your shirt collar I daresay you confirmed the existence of the pizza. So where were we?
Canon Lawyer: Sailing in a galleon toward a non regulation unconfirmed island.
DM: ah yes. Well I decided to rewind progress levels a bit and revised sailing technology. The ability to produce galleons is no longer available. You are currently splashing around in the water and attempting not to sink under the weight of your armor.The hell with internal consistency.
1) the campaign NEEDS internal consistency, otherwise what's the use of printing the campaign guide at all... it will be like forgotten realms with times of trouble blowing up the world and the 4th ed changes blowing it up again...
2) and adding things do not infuriate the lawyer - in the real world, we were finding new islands often up until a few generations ago. It's when things disappear without reason, and cannot be described away that cannon is hindered - "where the city you are returning to was now is a lush jungle"
"wait - where's the city go, we were there a week ago?"
"it moved 200 miles that way"
things like that detract from the of belief, because its something that we can barley if ever believe, even with magic.
Canon Lawyer: Whoa the campaign guide doesn't say that island is in this particular stretch of ocean.
DM: Yeah well the campaign guide didn't also say anything about the pizza i provided for the game. Based upon the stains on your shirt collar I daresay you confirmed the existence of the pizza. So where were we?
Canon Lawyer: Sailing in a galleon toward a non regulation unconfirmed island.
DM: ah yes. Well I decided to rewind progress levels a bit and revised sailing technology. The ability to produce galleons is no longer available. You are currently splashing around in the water and attempting not to sink under the weight of your armor.The hell with internal consistency.
1) the campaign NEEDS internal consistency, otherwise what's the use of printing the campaign guide at all... it will be like forgotten realms with times of trouble blowing up the world and the 4th ed changes blowing it up again...
2) and adding things do not infuriate the lawyer - in the real world, we were finding new islands often up until a few generations ago. It's when things disappear without reason, and cannot be described away that cannon is hindered - "where the city you are returning to was now is a lush jungle"
"wait - where's the city go, we were there a week ago?"
"it moved 200 miles that way"
things like that detract from the of belief, because its something that we can barley if ever believe, even with magic.
Your second example is of internal consistency, the first is just a pot shot at something you didn't like.
I think (though I could be wrong) what he was trying to do was to jokingly suggest that DM's do to cannon lawyers what they usually do with DMs.
Canon Lawyer: Whoa the campaign guide doesn't say that island is in this particular stretch of ocean.
DM: Being a canon lawyer, eh?
Canon Lawyer: Well, yes, you need to follow the guidelines of the designers on their worlds. They know what's best for your campaign, since they're professionals.
DM: Really? Well, I have a cannon lawyer of my own. Let me introduce the two of you.
Cannon Lawyer:
Box Set! Box Set! We want Box Set!!!
It should include a booklet for players to make players in the setting and a book for the DM and lots of maps!!!
It would be nice if it were no more than $30.
It would also be nice to have pregenerated npc sheets also.
This probably comes from my long time FR patronage, but I actually like a high level of detail as IMO it can provide an additional level of detail and richness that I find enjoyable. It's not only for game use as well, I cant tell you how many times I've grabbed one of my random 2E FR sourcebooks and just immersed myself in FR lore, for the pure enjoyment of reading a good story and a desire to find out extra specific tidbits on more broad based concepts.
Creative Director
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One thing to remember, and I'm sure it's been brought up already, but the Forgotten Realms is decades old. In fact, by the time the first Forgotten Realms boxed set appeared, it had ALREADY been in existence for many years.
With Golarion, we created the world more or less only a few years ago. Although parts of the world draw upon my own homebrew campaign setting (itself over 25 years old!), the world of Golarion as a whole is only a couple of years old.
Details come with time. With each product we publish in our module, adventure path, companion, and chronicle lines, those details grow. We'll be releasing a revised version of the Campaign Setting this Autumn that expands the current hardcover's size to 320 pages, and that'll incorporate a lot more details. But the main place to go to for the gritty details will remain our other product lines.
As a result, places like Varisia have a LOT of detail to them, while places like Thuvia do not. At least... not yet!
As a result, places like Varisia have a LOT of detail to them, while places like Thuvia do not. At least... not yet!
Hm . . . kind of like how Waterdeep, Cormyr, and the Dalelands were a lot more detailed at the start of FR, since that's were most of Ed Greenwood's campaigns took place?
The hell with internal consistency.
1) the campaign NEEDS internal consistency, otherwise what's the use of printing the campaign guide at all... it will be like forgotten realms with times of trouble blowing up the world and the 4th ed changes blowing it up again...
2) and adding things do not infuriate the lawyer - in the real world, we were finding new islands often up until a few generations ago. It's when things disappear without reason, and cannot be described away that cannon is hindered - "where the city you are returning to was now is a lush jungle"
"wait - where's the city go, we were there a week ago?"
"it moved 200 miles that way"
things like that detract from the of belief, because its something that we can barley if ever believe, even with magic.
I'm just kidding around with a little canon lawyer directed vengeance. I know internal constancy is necessary. As my brother likes to chant in game, dripping with sarcasm to irritate me, "You know? This just isn't suspending my disbelief."
What I don't like is when a living game gets constrained by the actions of someone shackled to canon. If I have an idea I relish and it invalidates some direction Paizo took in a supplement, I'm still going to implement it and do it my own way. James Jacobs and the canon police aren't going to seize my books, cleanse my rpg notes, and brand me with a Scarlet P. I don't want to be beholden to canon. Its my game. I do however love detail. The more detail the bigger the swimming pool of ideas and inspiration I can dive into but detail should never constrain. It should never supersede the imagination of the game nor should it impair the flow of the story.
The original poster said something that has always troubled me.
i know i could make a map if this happens(and i can bet you 100% it will)but there lies a problem in that. If i mock up a city what happens if i run an adventure later that shows the city in detail and it's completely different!?
what happens? Whatever you want. Bastardize your version.....adapt Paizo lock stock and barrel. Do what you want.
You should never be afraid to play, destroy, and alter a game world.
I sometimes tire of the argument that "too much detail becomes a weapon in the hands of the canon lawyers... so we have to leave things vague so the canon lawyers can't start arming themselves with irrevocable facts and hacking away at campaigns"
the heck with canon lawyers and their empty threats.....
its time for the canon criminals to reign. Its time for the canon criminals to steal what ideas they want, launder them, and sell them back to their players in whatever fashion they choose!
I woke up on the sanctimonious side of the bed this morning and boy was it cushy.
The major ailment afflicting canon lawyers is not a protest directed at the integrity of internal consistency. It is the sickness of having to mesh live game consistency with publisher consistency.
This is not a burden that I feel a DM should have to maintain.
Once the DM assumes the reins of command, the game world is his to shape. The NPCs are his to murder and the rulers are his to supplant...
To go completely overboard.....
when player x picks up treasure y in room A7 of the dungeon he is in effect violating canon. The book says the treasure is there. Now it is no longer there. The universe must fold neatly in on itself and be mailed back to Paizo HQ so it can be system restored.
Well first off i was talking about the Campaign guide book NOT the campaign as a whole. Second I'm not saying either that the book needs 100's of added pages. just that a few loose ends could have been covered that effect the campaign as a whole. for example. And this is JUST one example. me mentioning skymetals.
In New Stetven it's mentioned that "In return, exotic goods from all corners of Avistan (and beyond) flow back up the Sellen River to New Stetven. Although bandits and robbers in the River Kingdoms are still a serious obstacle, the market nevertheless offers a wide variety of goods, from Numarian skymetal to Osiriani relics."
now i can deduce that these are shipped all over the world into other major trade cities. Since there specific to pathfinder campaign it just would have been nice to maybe have names of skymetals and a quick description(like the wiki). full details and everything they do and can be used for is not what im asking. same for Osiriani Relics. under lost kingdoms maybe a quick "occasionally lost treasures from osirian pop up. these items are normally ancient artifacts valuable for there antiquity such as jewelry,sculptures,pottery and such. even rarer are weapons,magic items,artifacts and other powerfull devices." NOW granted i could easily just through in Osirian magic items and run with it. but the brief description gives me a idea of Osirians as a whole and there advancement as a society. the above description tells me they were advanced and not just an ancient indian tribe.
it gives just a little more info to make a deduction of were to run with it and keep it pathfinder. plus i know what to expect of say "Osirian,the lost kingdom:guide" I'd be sorely disappointed if i bought the book thinking it was like a lost Atlantis type society but end up just being a more civilized barbarian celtic type society.
Is this truely asking too much?
I like campaign settings that have just enough detail to inspire a DM. That's the best I can ask for in book campaign setting book. Now details on specific areas are great such as done in the Companions, Chronicles and Adventure Paths but I don't have to use them. I do because Paizo just make awesome stuff but if I chose to adventure in area undefined by any books as of yet I'd make up my own stuff.
Also a great business model. A vague book to start with which is completely usable all on it's own but if you want greater detail there is wealth of products in other lines doing exactly that. Sells books for Paizo and you don't have fork out fortune to get started. That's what I love about the Adventure Path, I probably won't run many of them but the details added in each for the area of the AP taking place is worth subscribing to.
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Runeblade,
I know this was touched on briefly, but I would like to reiterate that the Adventure Paths have some MAJOR detail on many locations in Golarion.
And, as Paizo has mentioned in the past, they will not re-print anything that has already come out in a previous product. So, those that only get the chronicles line are missing out on alot of stuff.
Want to know about Magnimar? Guess what, you wont find the detail outside of the Skinsaw Murders AP#2. I could make another 10-15 references like this one that the Adventure Paths cover.
There is alot of detail out there already, which is why the PDf's of these AP's are so important to a GM, even if they never run the AP.
The detail on what skymetals might be available can be an issue for a DM that is not wanting to create the list themselves.
This is where the difference in what Paizo puts out, and your personal preferences are conflicting. Remember, you dont ever HAVE to know all 7, and neither do your players. Perhaps it is a closely guarded secret to the Numerians, and that number is actually propaganda spread by the ruling government to mask the true number of skymetals they have. The Second Darkness AP has mention of Noqual in it, so there is a second skymetal for you if you have to have printed material from paizo rule in your game.
I am of the opinion that these details are the kind that dont have to be explained. Please give me the info that is most important to Numeria, which is the government, the way they rule, the people's attitude towards outsiders. I can create the spaceships, the poisonous leakage stats, and the guardians.
CC
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I have to say that overall I am VERY pleased with the presentation of Golarion.
Prior to the release of Golarion my game world of choice was Mystara. It was essentially detailed in its Gazetteers, focused books on a single country presenting the kind of detail the OP wants, but still vague enough to accommodate any game.
Now, the Campaign setting is an overview of the game world- something to tide you over until the world is further fleshed out. The world is being developed over time through the Chronicles and Companion series. It is here that you will find the details of the countries. Just enough to give you some details to run with, but not too many to bog you down in canon.
I had to wait for a LONG time for Mystara to be developed. In fact portions were NEVER developed because TSR went belly up. The world was kept alive by online fans, but that just can't be considered "canon." And see, there pops that "canon" problem again.
Too much detail and you get... well... too much detail. There's no way any body could ever remember every single fact about the Forgotten Realms (I suspect that is why it has the name... editor: "You screwed up the Shadow Weave in the back story. It is actually separate, but the same as, independent but dependent upon the Weave." developer: "Oh yeah, I Forgot...")
As far as Boxed sets go... good lord no. The boxes always got smashed, never fit on the bookshelf right, and took up a TON of space more than necessary. Give me individual volumes for each country that will survive the long haul and take up just enough space and no more.
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BTW in defense of the folks at TSR...
I know it is the vogue thing to do, to bash TSR for their mistakes, but it isn't as if they had 30 years of RPG publishing history to draw upon.
Was it bad business decisions that they only earned 80% of costs on boxed sets? Sure, but it wasn't stupidity. That was completely uncharted territory then.
It is a foolish mistake to look back on TSR and apply today's knowledge to their circumstances. It is demeaning to every employee of TSR, and makes the person making accusations look ignorant.
Those folks at TSR did a GREAT job, in my opinion. They pioneered an entirely new industry! Pioneering companies RARELY survive the long run. Henry Ford did not invent the automobile, nor the car industry, but there are few car companies older than Ford, simply because he saw the mistakes in the industry and applied a new paradigm that survived. The pioneering car companies did not survive. Neither did TSR.
Every single RPG publishing company and wannabe company owes their success and dreams to TSR who paved the way for us all.
So, to all of you former employees of TSR... thank you for your hard work.
I know it is the vogue thing to do, to bash TSR for their mistakes, but it isn't as if they had 30 years of RPG publishing history to draw upon.
I don't think it is as much TSR bashing as much as it is learning from their mistakes and stating "this was a mistake we are learning from." And pioneering companies are by no means the only company that makes horrible mistakes. Take a look at Mattel. Thanks to them, the entire toy and gaming industry has a crapload of extra testing to make sure it is safe for your 1 year old to snack on, despite the fact that that toy is designed for adults.
it also allows them to write adventures set there without disturbing canon.. if they had cannon lawyers saying "there's no castle in that part of the city it's a fur shop, shield shop and blacksmith"More of a great reason to keep it vague
True 'dat! Can we say "Volo's Guide to..." anyone!?
"The Star Spangled Inn is located between Cat's Alley and Greenwood Street, right next to Tommy's Books and Things. The proprietor is Cattie Do'Umpesh, an 18th level enchantress. She keeps a wand of instant death on her at all times and, literally, can't be killed (Seriously, don't even try to jump the desk ~Elflimnster). The rooms are plush and..."
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it also allows them to write adventures set there without disturbing canon.. if they had cannon lawyers saying "there's no castle in that part of the city it's a fur shop, shield shop and blacksmith"More of a great reason to keep it vagueTrue 'dat! Can we say "Volo's Guide to..." anyone!?
"The Star Spangled Inn is located between Cat's Alley and Greenwood Street, right next to Tommy's Books and Things. The proprietor is Cattie Do'Umpesh, an 18th level enchantress. She keeps a wand of instant death on her at all times and, literally, can't be killed (Seriously, don't even try to jump the desk ~Elflimnster). The rooms are plush and..."
Yes but what COLOR are the rooms? ahhh ha! Got ya!
Yes but what COLOR are the rooms? ahhh ha! Got ya!
* See FRG1575 "Deepwater and the North" for room color.
=P
I liked the Volo's Guides. :(
I liked the Volo's Guides. :(
Some of the best FR books (heck, best RPG books) available, AFAIC.
This FR-bashing going on here is kinda lame...
I liked the Volo's Guides. :(Some of the best FR books (heck, best RPG books) available, AFAIC.
This FR-bashing going on here is kinda lame...
I'm personally not FR-bashing. The fact is, FR products (some more than others) are P-A-C-K-E-D with detailed information. "Detailed information" doesn't even describe them appropriately! I was merely lampooning that fact, in Volo's unique style. =)
I can nitpick, too, but truth is: I own every Volo's Guide except the one to Baldur's Gate or some such. I love 'em, too.
Whether a setting is too vague or too detailed varies on what you want out of it.
Most GM's want some vagueness so they can think on the fly and change things to fit the plot.
Most players like detail because they can add it to their character, after all their characters live there.
As someone who has GM'd more than played I think the best was explaind by J.Micael Staczynski the creator of the Babylon 5 tv series (showing my age here). When asked at a con how fast the fighters fly, he replied,
"at the speed of plot". In other words, he reserved the right to have them save the day at the last minute or arrive too late, whatever the story required.
So the best setting...is a detailed one the GM can ignore as needed.
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why do we let canon lawyers or should I say fear of canon lawyers dictate products?
I think our society has an awful capacity to let the people who complain the loudest dictate what everyone else receives. We should spread the same misery canon lawyers' attempt to shovel onto players and dms who don't mind sculpting a campaign world to their own tastes...
The hell with internal consistency.
oh they let the magic haters do that :P
nerfing more and more magic... so i am happy the cannon lawyers don't get to much fodder|
CEO
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And, as Paizo has mentioned in the past, they will not re-print anything that has already come out in a previous product. So, those that only get the chronicles line are missing out on alot of stuff.
Actually, that is not 100% true. We've said that we don't plan to reprint things from past products, but that doesn't mean that we won't somewhere down the line. For instance, if 5 years from now there is an adventure path that takes place in Magnimar, we would probably do a Magnimar Chronicles books like we did for Curse of the Crimson Throne. We couldn't expect people 5 years from now to have the by then totally out of print Pathfinder #2 in order to run their new AP set in Magnimar. So that info would get reprinted and expanded upon in this case.
Another great example is that a couple of the monsters from the backs of the APs made it into the Pathfinder Bestiary.
What we were trying to get at in previous posts is that we don't have any plans to reprint stuff, so you can't rely on us reprinting information in the future—if you want it, you should buy it now, because there is no guarantee that the info will ever be reprinted. But we also aren't saying that once it is out of print, you will never see it again. When Gods and Magic goes out of print, we will probably have to figure out a way to get a god book back in print. Someday. But for right now and the foreseeable years ahead, we have plenty of stock left.
-Lisa
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I'm personally not FR-bashing. The fact is, FR products (some more than others) are P-A-C-K-E-D with detailed information. "Detailed information" doesn't even describe them appropriately! I was merely lampooning that fact, in Volo's unique style. =)Many rpg-books in the past have been written more like unstructured novels which made them very cumbersome to find important details during the heat of a game.
Except that's not true to the Volo books they're pointing to. Yes they're "writen" in-character. But they're broken down by Region > Country > Cities. You won't find information on a city 100 pages apart in the book, it's all on the same 2 or 3 consecutive pages.
Also, this imaginary concern about "a castle not being there" is ridiculous. For starters, it's PAIZO or WIZARD OF THE COAST, and/or the AUTHORS job to do the research. Little oversights are forgivable, but big ones, changes that have existed for 5+ years, aren't. It means neither the editors nor the authors have the respect for the material or it's fans to do their job properly.
As far as I know, the Star Trek people seem to do a pretty damn good job with their novels, and I know from first hand experience that the Star Wars people do an even better job with the novels. I don't know what the Star Trek people do, but I know Del Rey and LFL lean on a group of fans to aid in the fact checking/editing.
It means neither the editors nor the authors have the respect for the material or it's fans to do their job properly.
Case in point: most of the revised Dark Sun campaign setting.
