We recently started with new characters in a homebrew campaign, and one of the players expressed interest in playing a tiefling. After looking over the Bestiary entry, my DM said "Huh. 3 energy resistances plus the other stuff seems a bit overpowered compared to the other races. If you want a somewhat monstrous PC, go with the Half-Orc, please".
Now, noone argued, as we could see his point. I believe in 3.5, the tiefling with the exact same abilities (i think) had a +1 LA (or was it +2?). Pathfinder doesn't seem to have LA per se anymore, and apparently covers that in the "Monsters as PCs" chapter in the bestiary.
My question is, did anyone else have a similar moment with his DM? How many of you feel the tiefling (and other no-racial HD races) are overpowered in comparison to the core races? If you feel they are not, why?
There are some DM tips in the Council of Thieves Player's Guide on how to handle this exact problem.
Honestly, Tieflings are perfectly balanced with Dwarves as long as you make them humanoids instead of outsiders. Aasimar would also be balanced with the same change and a -2 to a single stat.
IMO, this was the one of the sillier decisions dear Paizonians made in the conversion. Yes, the LA +HD= ECL formula was a pain sometimes, but for the most part, it worked. The "it's too hard, so we didn't do it" excuse they give was kinda weak.
There are some DM tips in the Council of Thieves Player's Guide on how to handle this exact problem.
Indeed, there is a trait there that specifically powers down the tiefling to the level of the standard races, you could simply make the tiefling work like that.
Being a big fan of Pathfinder's "Carrot over Stick" design philosophy, I've applied the following house rule - non-standard races (specifically monsters) don't get the two bonus Traits other characters do. Not all that useful if you're not using Traits, but there you go. I also follow the rule of thumb that only monsters that have a good reason to join the group, and are not likely to get gutted the moment they show their faces, are available options, so in my Second Darkness campaign Tiflings are perfectly acceptable (like Westcrown, Riddleport is rife withe them), but in my upcoming Kingmaker game, they're a no-go. With Kingmaker I've made the rule that new PCs can be of any race they can successfully ally with, so down the road Lizard Folk, Trolls and who knows what else might be available, but they as a group have to work to "unlock" the option.
Mr. Fishy is has seen the Assimir/Tiefling character before. At low levels the extra powers resist energy and spell like abilities can be a little unbalanced but they even out at low-mid level. A first level tiefling has an advantage. But the power gap closes pretty quickly.
Over powered? No. More powerful at fist level? A little. The classes will "usually" balance the party out after a few levels.
Mr. Fishy allows off stuff some times on the grounds of testing. If the new race, feat or rule is too unbalanced or more annoying than fun then it gets pulled, period. If the DM is uncomfortable talk to him/her outside the game. Ask the other players to back you up on a "trial basis". If the character is too much then pull it. Just be fair to the group and the poor DM. DM's are people too, soulless character eating monsterous people but people.
Zaister suggestion is a great one Mr. Fishy has read the tips mentioned and they are a good balancer.
IMO, this was the one of the sillier decisions dear Paizonians made in the conversion. Yes, the LA +HD= ECL formula was a pain sometimes, but for the most part, it worked. The "it's too hard, so we didn't do it" excuse they give was kinda weak.
It really didn't work at all.
I rarely if ever saw LA races, and almost never saw HD races, because the price was simply too high. Unless you played with LA buyoff - which I don't think I ever did - it was just a massive penalty.
Tieflings aren't really that powered compared to other races. Typically, I do the Human test. Is the class overpowered compared to humans? If not, then it's fine.
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I´ve run a couple games with tieflings on them and they didn´t disturb the game as much as you´d think. Their energy resistance rerely comes up at low levels when the ¨strong¨ races are supposed to be a problem.The darkness as a spell like is so situational that it barely made a difference.
Honestly the main thing they have going for them is the outsider type which protects them from a few spells, however it´s not more usefull than the elven sleep inmunity.
That´s just my experience thou.
Yeah we have two varrient Tieflings in our Current Bastards of Eberus game and they have not appeared any more powerful then the rest of us in the party
There are some DM tips in the Council of Thieves Player's Guide on how to handle this exact problem.Indeed, there is a trait there that specifically powers down the tiefling to the level of the standard races, you could simply make the tiefling work like that.
True, seems like an elegant solution. Should I DM a game ayntime soon, I'll probably go with this solution.
Mr. Fishy is has seen the Assimir/Tiefling character before. At low levels the extra powers resist energy and spell like abilities can be a little unbalanced but they even out at low-mid level. A first level tiefling has an advantage. But the power gap closes pretty quickly.
Over powered? No. More powerful at fist level? A little. The classes will "usually" balance the party out after a few levels.
Considering I usually run low-level campaigns (and we are currently starting at first level with this DM), the low level effects are precisely what worries me(and him) a little.
Mr. Fishy allows off stuff some times on the grounds of testing. If the new race, feat or rule is too unbalanced or more annoying than fun then it gets pulled, period.
Me, not a big fan of this. If I'm not sure if it'll work in the long run, I'm likely to disallow it, because pulling a character from an ongoing campaign opens continuity problems and is even more frustrating to the player than having his request denied up front, IMO.
If the DM is uncomfortable talk to him/her outside the game. Ask the other players to back you up on a "trial basis". If the character is too much then pull it. Just be fair to the group and the poor DM. DM's are people too, soulless character eating monsterous people but people.
That wasn't really the issue, we all more or less agreed that it might be to powerful a race for a level 1 campaign. So, no danger of any hurt feeligns anywhere. The OP was more out of curiosity to see what experiences other people have with this.
I am not sure it will bring something positive to this thread, but I happen to have two versions of the Aasimar and Tiefling:
The first one is the basic one but it has no LA.
The second one has a LA+1 but that's a template, which can be added to any race, therefore creating semi celestial or fiendish variants...
This has come up in my CotCT game. Right after we finished Council of Thieves, and *now* two players are playing native outsiders... Anyways, I made the person playing an Aasimar and Tiefling choose one energy resistance.
The tiefling picked fire... roll eyes.
And then I had them roll off of the Tiefling Racial Trait chart from Pathfinder AP #25: Council of Thieves: Bastards of Erebus in the tiefling chart. I flavored what the Aasimar rolled celestially and what the Tiefling rolled abyssally.
Worked out alright with some minor kinks... The first two traits they rolled ended up with the Aasimar with "always healed by positive and negative energy" and the Tiefling with... "can eat dirt for sustenance." I'm a big fan of WFRP, but this is D&D and cruelty isn't half as fun!
I am a Teifling in CoT, and I don't have any advantages. I have almost died enough times that I can say being a teifling does not matter.
i usually make up for the point with the extra stats by giving that specifik player less points to by with when using the point by system. This gives them a little less basic stats, wich is balanced by their no -2 to a stat, and their energy resistance.
So in a 20 point buy setting, i gave my player 16, and i think it worked out nicely.
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In our home game, someone made a cat-folk character, using one of our DM's books. In that book, it listed the cat-folk as having a +1 level adjustment. Our DM ruled that since there is no level adjustment in Pathfinders, she simply needed to balance out her starting character in some way. He recommended: Lowering base speed back to 30, or removing the Natural Armor bonus. She (smartly, I'd say) went for the base speed of 30, and everyone's happy with the final outcome.
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Honestly, Energy Resistance 5 is barely anything to write home about, even at level 1. Their stats are on par with the other races, and I think so about the Aasimar as well because they get no physical stat boost. Net +3 to Diplomacy and Perception, a few minor energy resistances that don't really matter in the long run, darkvision, and the ability to create light (which darkvision makes a little less attractive).
Tieflings get Darkness, which only lowers the level of light by one step, standard racial ability adjustments, a few minor energy resistances, net +1 bluff and +3 stealth, and a racial ability that allows them to be modest sorcerers. All of this seems to be very on-par. The only thing that gave them the LA+1 in 3.5 was the outsider type, because the LA 0 Planetouched had all of these abilities but had the Humanoid (Planetouched) subtype.
I'm playing a tiefling paladin 7 in CoCT and I can say without a shadow of a doubt, that it really doesn't matter that you have three energy resistances of 5 and all the other perks past lvl 3, because I have just died last gaming session and I've noticed that the only ability I really can say I utilize on a regular basis is darknes(for making escapes)
Personally I think traits are a great way to balance a party with races like Tiefling. Giving the rest of the party two non campaign traits, and a campaign trait, and only giving the Tiefling a campaign trait balances things nicely IMO.
Personally i'd ask for the first level to be a Commoner level. The Energy Resistance and Outsider Type (that comes with a few side-line advantages) are significant.
With a change from Outsider to Humanoid or have an un-disguisable and revealing apperance, I'd allow any NPC class at first level (and would allow the Adept magic abilities to become a +1 level of casting abilities of the later PC class).
Just my take.
This is not as big a deal as it is being made out to be. In our current campaign we have a Tiefling, an Aasimar, and a Githzerai. The Tiefling and Aasimar are at full strength and the Githzerai took a voluntary decrease in Dex bonus from +6 to +2 in order to play the race, with the rest of his abilities in tact. I can say that these characters are in no way OP/overshadow the rest of the party, which consists of an Elf(me), Dwarf, and Gnome.
Question, that is a little off topic, how do you deal with a Drow Noble character??? The CR rule seems a little off.
Question, that is a little off topic, how do you deal with a Drow Noble character??? The CR rule seems a little off.
As a level higher, there was a discussion about it when the Bestiary came out.
It was pointed that by 10th level its bonus abilities become redundant, so by that point you might want to remove the ¨level adjustment¨.
Humbly,
Yawar
Question, that is a little off topic, how do you deal with a Drow Noble character??? The CR rule seems a little off.As a level higher, there was a discussion about it when the Bestiary came out.
It was pointed that by 10th level its bonus abilities become redundant, so by that point you might want to remove the ¨level adjustment¨.
Humbly,
Yawar
Per the rules, you remove it between 3 and 4 (again, just going by RAW, p 312/313).
I haven't had a Noble Drow in a game at lower levels, but at 9th level they weren't overpowered, and ended up getting killed 3 sessions after joining (got trapped on the wrong side of a row of large skeletons and got nickle and dimed to death by the Medium and Small skeletons that were bringing up the rear).
Per the rules, you remove it between 3 and 4 (again, just going by RAW, p 312/313).I haven't had a Noble Drow in a game at lower levels, but at 9th level they weren't overpowered, and ended up getting killed 3 sessions after joining (got trapped on the wrong side of a row of large skeletons and got nickle and dimed to death by the Medium and Small skeletons that were bringing up the rear).
Yeah, but the spell like abilities are too powerful at those levels so it wouldn't be fair to remove them that early.
Humbly,
Yawar
Per the rules, you remove it between 3 and 4 (again, just going by RAW, p 312/313).I haven't had a Noble Drow in a game at lower levels, but at 9th level they weren't overpowered, and ended up getting killed 3 sessions after joining (got trapped on the wrong side of a row of large skeletons and got nickle and dimed to death by the Medium and Small skeletons that were bringing up the rear).
Yeah, but the spell like abilities are too powerful at those levels so it wouldn't be fair to remove them that early.
Humbly,
Yawar
Perhaps doubling the wait to between level 6 and 7.
Could someone show me where tieflings are overpowered? They get +5 energy resistance and can cast darkness. Elves get +2 against SR, a handful of increased skill checks, and extra saves against a full class of magic.
Being an outsider no longer matters. It used to be important because of how Alter Self worked, but that's gone.
Some people think being an outsider matters because in outsider traits it lists that they are proficient with martial weapons. Paizo has said that they don't get the proficiencies since they do not have HD.
I had one of each in my CoT game, one is now dead (well, reincarnated as a troglodyte) and the other is just joining the group, he took the infernal bastard trait for RP purposes. The races are a little higher powered than human, but certainly nothing game breaking and I would put them on par with dwarves or elves.
Could someone show me where tieflings are overpowered? They get +5 energy resistance and can cast darkness. Elves get +2 against SR, a handful of increased skill checks, and extra saves against a full class of magic.
Being an outsider no longer matters. It used to be important because of how Alter Self worked, but that's gone.
Being an outsider also makes them immune to all spells affecting humanoids, if I'm not mistaken.
Being an outsider also makes them immune to all spells affecting humanoids, if I'm not mistaken.Could someone show me where tieflings are overpowered? They get +5 energy resistance and can cast darkness. Elves get +2 against SR, a handful of increased skill checks, and extra saves against a full class of magic.
Being an outsider no longer matters. It used to be important because of how Alter Self worked, but that's gone.
...both good and bad. As Zurai mentioned above, sure they're immune to Charm/Hold Person coming from the baddies. However they also can't be affected by Enlarge/Reduce Person as buffs from your allies.
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This is very true. In my experience, (Assamar is my favorate race since 3E), the Outsider type is much more a hinderence than a boon to PC's.
However, melding a few ideas here together, what you could do to power down the two races might be to remove 2 of their 3 Energy Resistances. The player could then spend their Traits to buy them back if they want (1:1), or only have 1 Energy Resistance, which honestly is not that great in my opinion.