I'm in a core only Pathfinder campaign where the party levels will go from 1st to 10th. Outside P/F material ok only for classes, i.e. witches, summoners, etc are ok to play.
If my aim is to be the party buffer, which class(es) is the strongest to play? That is to say, the goal is to primarily boost other people's performances &/or protect them from harm. In 3.5 the Cleric, thanks to Spell Compendium, was awesome. Now with core only spells I'm not so sure.
If this is a question raised in another thread, please give me a link.
Thanks in advance all you rules wizards out there.
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Cleric is still a good choice, with many useful buff spells at all levels. Wizard is also excellent--I'd probably go transmuter specialist if you want to focus on buffing. Druid would also be a decent choice, I think, though not as good as the first two.
Bards are by their nature a support class, and make decent buffers, although they don't have the breadth of spells that primary caster classes do.
The Advanced Player's Guide Classes are, to my mind, not as optimized for buffing. They tend to have much more limited spellcasting (smaller spell lists, fewer spells/day, limited spells known, etc.) compared to the core classes.
If there were a Pathfinder equivalent to the Archivist, I'd put that at the top of the list also.
Bard is very good for party buffs, no mistake. If the party already has a cleric, go Bard.
Oracle is amazing for party buffs. My battle Oracle can put up Prayer, Bless, multiple Shield of Faith, Enlarge Person and multiple Bull's Strength for difficult fights, and multiple Magic Vestment and Magic Weapon Greater at the start of every day. This is while still having enough spells for himself so he can cast Divine Favor, Divine Power, Righteous Might, Death Knell and Spiritual Weapon all to his discretion.
With the added bonus of not having to prepare these specific buff spells, and being able to expend up to twice as many per day as the Cleric can, the Oracle can really come ahead on the curve of being able to make his party kick ass.
Add in the ability to quicken Cure spells using Combat Healer by expending unused spell slots and the Oracle's a more dependable front-line healer than the cleric-- quickening a Cure Critcal Wounds or Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass when needed and still supplying other spell support or melee support. And with a Battle Oracle, you can still fight in melee fairly competently as well, so you're not swinging around a club or a sickle or some other simple weapon-- you're rolling around in full plate and using a martial weapon as early as you can afford them. Good deal!
Now, Bard is still the undisputed king of party buffs with generally constant abilities like Inspire Courage and spells like Good Hope, Invisibility Sphere and Haste, but the Oracle can really be a contender, IMO.
Thank for the responses so far everyone. I'm glad to hear someone still thinks that Clerics are in contention as that was my character of choice in 3.5.
I never gave the Bard any serious consideration before, but will re-read treantmonk's guide given the recomdations.
I'll see if my buddie has a copy of the rules for Oracle as it sounds like it'd be a good fit for any party.
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Thank for the responses so far everyone. I'm glad to hear someone still thinks that Clerics are in contention as that was my character of choice in 3.5.
I never gave the Bard any serious consideration before, but will re-read treantmonk's guide given the recomdations.
I'll see if my buddie has a copy of the rules for Oracle as it sounds like it'd be a good fit for any party.
I played a Bard/WarWeaver that was the main healer and party buffer. I can confirm that the bard is a fantastic buffing class.
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It depends largely on party size and makeup. For a smaller party, the Cleric's spells will do your buddies well, probably best. Bard is exponentially better the more non-dedicated spellcasters you have in the group. If you have even a few that dabble in melee or physical ranged attacks, or have mounts or companions or cohorts that make such attacks, Inspire Courage will have them all hitting a whole lot more often, causing more damage when they do, and (don't discount this) confirming more crits.
In our recently-axed Second Darkness campaign, I played a gnome bard who attacked more than he cast, and the other party members were a backstabbing rogue, a paladin/fighter, and a wizard who was all about the ray and orb spells.
Note: though you're core PFRPG only, his unique brand of sizing up foes and inspire courage (lots of jokes at the expense of baddies with Perform: oratory and comedy was so much fun) was especially potent. Knowledge Devotion from Complete Champion, Trivial Knowledge from Races of Stone, along PFRPG's version of bardic knowledge and the new 5th level class feature lore master are not to be trifled with. Especially with any spells or feats or magic items that boost inspire courage (Zek knew Inspirational Boost from the Spell Compendium, the Song of the Heart feat from the Eberron Campaign Setting, and had a Badge of Valor from the Magic Item Compendium). My friend was smart to disallow skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel, as there's one in there that'd make those Knowledge checks even more silly. The little gnome bard that could....
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It depends largely on party size and makeup. For a smaller party, the Cleric's spells will do your buddies well, probably best. Bard is exponentially better the more non-dedicated spellcasters you have in the group. If you have even a few that dabble in melee or physical ranged attacks, or have mounts or companions or cohorts that make such attacks, Inspire Courage will have them all hitting a whole lot more often, causing more damage when they do, and (don't discount this) confirming more crits.
In our recently-axed Second Darkness campaign, I played a gnome bard who attacked more than he cast, and the other party members were a backstabbing rogue, a paladin/fighter, and a wizard who was all about the ray and orb spells.
Note: though you're core PFRPG only, his unique brand of sizing up foes and inspire courage (lots of jokes at the expense of baddies with Perform: oratory and comedy was so much fun) was especially potent. Knowledge Devotion from Complete Champion, Trivial Knowledge from Races of Stone, along PFRPG's version of bardic knowledge and the new 5th level class feature lore master are not to be trifled with. Especially with any spells or feats or magic items that boost inspire courage (Zek knew Inspirational Boost from the Spell Compendium, the Song of the Heart feat from the Eberron Campaign Setting, and had a Badge of Valor from the Magic Item Compendium). My friend was smart to disallow skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel, as there's one in there that'd make those Knowledge checks even more silly. The little gnome bard that could....
I like that bard Golbez. Mine is a human drill instructor that uses oratory and acting as his perform skills. Our group is all melee except our kobold sorcerer, so we do get alot of use from the inspire courage. It is great cussing out all my PC friends during combat and they get +3 to hit and damage from it. I also have the Inspirational boost spell, and I love it.
If I am not swearing, they are not hitting... :D
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For a core only campaign, I would suggest Cleric. The Bard has it easier with inspire courage at earlier levels, but Ice Titan has it correct for both Cleric and Oracle at mid to higher levels. At mid levels and higher, the only Bard spells that buff up are Rage, Haste, and Good Hope up to tenth level. That was as I saw the list up the fourth level spells not caster levels.
The problem with the Bard now is that you can only have one song up at a time. That in my opinion is a big set back. In the good ole, LG days with Wotc, I could have a few Bard songs up at a time. At ninth level and higher, I could have inspire courage up with inspire greatness, and other compo's. Otherwise, it was those three spells that I mentioned earlier which are ok, not great.
At higher levels you have more songs, but as I said you can not combine them. For levels one through eight, you have inspire courage, and those three Bard spell I mentioned earlier. Remember what Ice Titan said as for a combination of Cleric/Oracle spells.
Bard:
Inspire Courage as a move action at 7th level for +2 to hit and damage, then Good Hope with your standard action for ANOTHER +2 to hit, damage, skills, and saves. Next round (or same round with a metamagic rod of lesser quicken spell) Haste. Then you can actually do stuff to.
Clerics are alright for party buffs, but their bonuses are low, and in general their best buffs are self buffs -- besides they lack haste, and that hurts any party buffer.
Wizards do alright as party buffers go, but at the end of the day if you actually want to use all those buffs and get them off when it matters the bard is the way to go.
Bard is better if you have more than 4 in the party, if you have only 3 I'd say cleric or oracle. The larger the party the more the scales will tilt towards the bard.
Agreed, the bard is THE 5th wheel character in the party.
If you are allowed 3rd party classes you may want to consider the super genious warmaster. But really it depends on your party makeup. Do you want pure buffs? Do you need to fill another roll? Usually if you are in a 4 person party a pure buffer is a problem.
Top core/apg buffers (in my opinion):
Bard
Cleric
Oracle
Wizard
Summoner (you may question this one, but consider the fact that its a class that has alot of the best buffs along with the fact that he can reserve ALL his spells for buffs, generating offence from the eidolon and his summons. In fact, casting buffs doesnt even mean he cant have offense that turn because his beasties can still lay on the hurt. Where as the cleric, oracle and wizard lose actions for casting buffs. The bard does also but eventually he can get his songs out quicker so it's less of an issue for the bard.)
Outside that i'd recommend the super genious warmaster just because its something new and a little different.
I'm creating a new Bard for a campaign that we're starting tomorrow. He's going for the double whammy of buff/debuff (Dazzling Display with lots of intimidate). Scare your enemies while inspiring courage in your allies. At 7th level, I could possibly be granting a four point swing on attack rolls and soften up their saves for a slow or something. Not sure how well it's going to work out yet but sounds nice in theory.
Bard - for all the reasons described above. Especially since you're only going to about 10th level. Past there, clerics and others get more "mass" effects that matter or last long enough to. Even in a group of 3 I'd say Bard's better, but that's cutting the edge a bit, where you'll have to focus on your own effectiveness just as much.
If your party has absolutely no healer, I'd say go cleric.
If, however, your party has any sort of healer, even a secondary healer, I'd suggest Bard. Clerics may get more powerful individual buffs, but unless you have multiple rounds of pre-combat buffing every fight you're never going to see half of them take effect. The ability for a bard to immediately buff everyone in the party with bardic song and cast a second buff on top is just too nice. With improved initiative and a decent dexterity you can make sure that your party members never have to wade into a fight without some significant bonuses to their attacks and damage.
The ability to play back up fighter, back up rogue, backup healer, and even an ok back up controller/wizard (at least vs. foes that aren't immune to bardic song) is just icing on the cake.
First, thanks for all the cool ideas from everyone.
I *never* thought I'd even seriously think of playing a bard, but d@amned if you all didn't make a great case for being one for what I plan to do with this next character. Especially since I anticipate a large adventuring group.
Still, Oracle, which I have to check out and hope my GM has rules on, might fit as well.
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If you have more than a couple people meleeing in the party then bard kicks butt. A bard/ archer or even a bard/ meleer can be a third/ forth melee character and buff the party at the same time.
I can't think of anything the cleric can do buffing wise for the whole party that touches bardic song/ good hope without spending 2-3 rounds to get it all going. The bard can kick out some great buffs in the first round then contribute to dishing out damage for the rest of combat. Heck after 7th level a bard can buff and attack from the first round if you are willing to give up the good hope bonus.
When they redid the bard they turned it up to 11.
Bard is very good for party buffs, no mistake. If the party already has a cleric, go Bard.
Seconded, and
Bard is better if you have more than 4 in the party, if you have only 3 I'd say cleric or oracle. The larger the party the more the scales will tilt towards the bard.Agreed, the bard is THE 5th wheel character in the party.
Seconded, and Thanks for the Spinal Tap, Ogre.
Remember that Bards are proficient with whips and spears so they *can* sit behind your front line and do a little damage themselves.
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Bard is better if you have more than 4 in the party, if you have only 3 I'd say cleric or oracle. The larger the party the more the scales will tilt towards the bard.Agreed, the bard is THE 5th wheel character in the party.
Disagreed, in fact I can't think of a statement I disagree more with, having run and played in parties with only 4 characters one of which is the bard, especially from levels 1-10 (I've actually never managed to play above 13th level) a bard makes an excellent 4th party member. In 3.5 they needed splat books to be effective, but in pathfinder 90% of the splat stuff you used to make the bard = to the party has been incorporated into the bard. And there is no class in pathfinder that buffs as well as the bard. The bard is hands down the best buffer in the game. the other classes come in second.
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If you have more than a couple people meleeing in the party then bard kicks butt. A bard/ archer or even a bard/ meleer can be a third/ forth melee character and buff the party at the same time.
I can't think of anything the cleric can do buffing wise for the whole party that touches bardic song/ good hope without spending 2-3 rounds to get it all going. The bard can kick out some great buffs in the first round then contribute to dishing out damage for the rest of combat. Heck after 7th level a bard can buff and attack from the first round if you are willing to give up the good hope bonus.
When they redid the bard they turned it up to 11.
or in otherwords +1
Personally, I think the arcane buffing much better than the divine. Wizards get the most interesting buffs, many movement based or defensive. Clerics get some decent AC, hit and damage buffs, but there are issues with them stacking. Bards get many of the good wizard ones, and have bardic music that beats out the Cleric's buffs.
Bard
1
expeditious retreat
2
blur
heroism (does not stack with bardic song)
invisibility
rage
+4 stat enhancements
3
displacement
gaseous form
good hope
haste
invisibility sphere
cleric
1
bless
magic weapon
protection from …
shield of faith
2
aid
align weapon
resist energy
shield other
+4 stat enhancements
3
magic vestment
prayer
protection from energy
4
freedom of movement
wizard
1
protection from …
mage armor
enlarge person
expeditious retreat
magic weapon
reduce person
2
protection from arrows
resist energy
blur
invisibility
spiderclimb
+4 stat enhancements
3
nondetection
protection from energy
heroism
rage
displacement
invisibility sphere
fly
gaseous form
haste
Keen edge
Greater magic weapon
4
Lesser globe of invulnerability
stoneskin
invisibility, greater
enlarge person, mass
reduce person, mass
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If buffing is your only consideration, Oracles are deffinetly the best; clerics bring some handy healig, but Oracles are set up for getting out more spells and better setup. Bards are better off front-liners suprisingly; rather than buffers these days.
I would love to see how you make an oracle a better buffer than a bard. I understand that's your opinion, but I'd like to see how an oracle can be a better buffer than a bard. Especially at levels 1-10
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It literally comes down to spell level availibilites. The +2/+2 is very handy from 7th-10th level, since it becomes swift-action, but 1-6 bardsong is rarely worth it (my PFS primary is a bard, so I have experience with this). So you're left with less, and lower level, spells per day.
Don't get me wrong... Bards bring great skills, occasional good inspirations, and good save-or-suck spells; I heart bards. But Oracles give you more spells faster and will outlast bards or clerics on long days. If the campaign were longer I might agree with you; but for 1-10 as a buffing optimalist I'd go Oracle every time.
bards have another huge benefit, their knowledge, it's the only real way to take player knowledge and bring it into game knowledge. Make that knowledge check high enough, and you can practically read the monster manual while you're fighting it.
Throw in Use Magic Device and you're golden, wand of true strike. 50 charges for 750gp. Not on your list, but it's trivial for a well made Bard.
I agree Xaaron, but from the initial thread they were looking for the best buffer and nothing else; and for that bard will pale because of slower progress to the better, high-level buff spells and # of castings per day. Sorcerer or Oracle would outshine for that particular setup.
Wands can be used for buffing, and knowledge of your enemies could be seen as a buff...so while they may have more spells, it depends on your play style.
Let's assume that all bases are covered and no compensation needed from my character (however, someone pointed out that the more melee-ers the better the bard and his buffs, IIRC). In any case, the question centers on the buffing potential of characters in a system that's kinda new to me.
Let's assume that all bases are covered and no compensation needed from my character (however, someone pointed out that the more melee-ers the better the bard and his buffs, IIRC). In any case, the question centers on the buffing potential of characters in a system that's kinda new to me.
Assuming this means the standard cleric/fighter/rogue/wizard combo (or near enough to it) the bard is a good choice, as the fighter and rogue (and sometimes the cleric) can make the most of your buffs. The cleric is already there as an extra buffer or an extra fighter aside from his caster/healer role.
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It literally comes down to spell level availibilites. The +2/+2 is very handy from 7th-10th level, since it becomes swift-action, but 1-6 bardsong is rarely worth it (my PFS primary is a bard, so I have experience with this). So you're left with less, and lower level, spells per day.
I have to disagree with you here, levels 1-6 that extra +1 to hit is invaluable and +1 damage actually means something. The wizard and cleric wind up spending as much time dishing out damage with crossbows and maces as they do casting. In my group bardic song winds up doing a ton of extra damage every round. And when they aren't singing they have significantly better weapon choices so they can be more effective contributing to party damage.
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Without any information I would suggest a decent CHA UMD Cleric. If you are using traits then pick up the one that makes UMD a class skill and gives you a +1 trait bonus for it. That should cover your bases. Then pick between domains like Travel, Freedom, Law, Luck, Healing and Repose (or similar) that give some nice support to the party as they might need it.
This suggestion makes no sense at all. So the ultimate fall back buffer is a UMD Cleric? Huh?
Clerics not very good at UMD compared to bards and sorcerers, nor are they stellar utility spellcasters.
Generally when people ask about buffing they are asking about affecting weapon damage, or resisting damage. That plus the fact that he's already said it's a big party points to bard. If the party is mostly doing damage with spells then the role of buffer is pretty irrelevant because you can't buff spell damage. Likewise, the number of defensive buffs available is fairly limited.
Generally when people say 'buffing' they aren't thinking of utility spells like fly. If utility spells are the goal then a sorcerer with proper spell selection is going to be leaps and bounds ahead of either the cleric or bard because they have tons of spells and the sorcerer spell list has the best utility spells.
Best buffing class would depend on several factors specific to your campaign; party size and composition, average amount of encounters per day, variety in types of encounters, etc.
That being said, in my experience the spontaneous casters tend to be better buffers, because they can spam the appropriate buffs.
I'd probably say Oracle would make the best buffer in the current version of PF. Access to all cleric spells plus spontaneous casting plus lots of spells per day. At higher levels the cleric spell list contains some very powerful party buffs, which an oracle could keep up for almost every encounter (Holy Aura comes to mind). The ability to throw out multiple castings of Freedom of Movement and Air Walk is also a biggie. Same with things like Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment.
I'll grant that the arcane list has some buffs that give a greater impact, particularly Haste or Improved Invisibility on the party rogue. But the cleric list has the buffs that result in a greater overall benefit through the long haul.
Each of the arcane casters has issues though as far as being a better buffer. Bard just doesn't have the spells per day or spells known or spell levels to be the best. Sorcerer has the spells to do it, but often has to focus on other spells to be properly effective. Wizard has the versatility, but can't have numerous castings available of higher level buffs without relying on scrolls, wands, and staves.
Oracle also makes a good anti-debuffer, in that it can have multiple castings of the spells that remove debuffs from the party. Heal of course, the restoration spells, the 'remove' spells, etc.
I'd probably rate the Battle Oracle with a spell list focused on a) buffing himself for combat, b) buffing the party, and c) removing debuffs, as the best overall buffer.
While the original question was about core only, I noticed a lot of people went a bit beyond that. So I feel comfortable asking: Why is there no love for the Alchemist?
I can understand some of the immediate reasons: similar buff list to wizard/sorcerer, but they are not a 'casting only' class, so they have less spell levels and spells per level. But one interesting advantage they have going for them is the infusion discovery. That allows they to pass the job of actually using their daily spells off to other party members, which means that everyone can take the first turn buffing themselves.
That kind of action economy is hard to beat, even for the bard, due to the sheer versatility of it all. Turning yourself into what is basically a renewable fountain of potion has its advantages, even with the slight risks.
Action economy for the alchemist, lemmy, but not for the party.
Action economy for the alchemist, lemmy, but not for the party.
I suppose that is true. I guess I just generally go by the principle that martials should generally just spend the first turn getting into a good defensive position while the casters buff and lay down battlefield control, since that is the only turn where you can expect the two sides to still be in their respective corners. I guess I just favor reach builds a bit too much as well, since they also benefit from this kind of tactic.
Bard does still beat the alchemist in party wide action economy, since they are the only one spending actions. Still, infusions do seem worth mentioning, since we are talking about six spell levels of buffs that could be nova'd in this manner.