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Well looks like Captain America's infamous line won't be in the movie.
Yeah, 4F Steve Rogers, volunteering for an untested potentially lethal experiment, isn't going to be patriotic or gung-ho.
Next, the Red Skull is not evil, just misunderstood.
Maybe they should just call him Captain Earth, or something. It's sad, sometimes, the way PC crap gets in the way.
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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Maybe they should just call him Captain Earth, or something. It's sad, sometimes, the way PC crap gets in the way.Well looks like Captain America's infamous line won't be in the movie.
Yeah, 4F Steve Rogers, volunteering for an untested potentially lethal experiment, isn't going to be patriotic or gung-ho.
Next, the Red Skull is not evil, just misunderstood.
You're right. If the director wants a character that isn't "about America", then he should have picked a different movie to direct. What about a character called 'Captain America' led him to believe the character shouldn't be patriotic? Idiot.
You're right. If the director wants a character that isn't "about America", then he should have picked a different movie to direct. What about a character called 'Captain America' led him to believe the character shouldn't be patriotic? Idiot.Maybe they should just call him Captain Earth, or something. It's sad, sometimes, the way PC crap gets in the way.Well looks like Captain America's infamous line won't be in the movie.
Yeah, 4F Steve Rogers, volunteering for an untested potentially lethal experiment, isn't going to be patriotic or gung-ho.
Next, the Red Skull is not evil, just misunderstood.
I'm not getting that from this. All I'm getting is that he's going to be in a more average joe direction than a foaming at the mouth "You think this A stands for France" lunatic or one that's a concientcious(baaad spelling) objector. I'm still interested. Mainly because the line between patrotism and jingoism is far, far too thin nowadays.
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My problem is: what's wrong with an American flag-waver? I want a guy that respects the flag and the country, someone who is all about liberty and freedom. I don't mind them eliminating any political ties but he should be patriotic as well as a good person.
"Don't change who you are once you go from Steve Rogers to this super-soldier; you have to stay who you are inside, that's really what's important more than your strength and everything."
*eyeroll*
That's the kind of feel-good Hollywood bull**** that I'm so sick of hearing and seeing in the movies these days.
My problem is: what's wrong with an American flag-waver? I want a guy that respects the flag and the country, someone who is all about liberty and freedom. I don't mind them eliminating any political ties but he should be patriotic as well as a good person.
"Don't change who you are once you go from Steve Rogers to this super-soldier; you have to stay who you are inside, that's really what's important more than your strength and everything."
*eyeroll*
That's the kind of feel-good Hollywood bull**** that I'm so sick of hearing and seeing in the movies these days.
For a comic book serial series, not that hard to pull off.
For a two hour movie made with someone else's money? Not nearly so easy.
Also, since it worked well with Wonder Woman just down the road, let's try it here.
Who, or what, is Captain America to you?
To me, he's something similar to what everyone has said- even the guy making the new movie. He's Joe Average, but for an entire country. He has his failings, faults, and all sorts of things that would probably be embarrasing if others found out, and who knows, perhaps they have. But to him, it doesn't matter. Only doing the right thing does. He's parted company with others before- even his superiors(big fan of The Captain thing a few years back)- over ethical and moral issues, but he's never attempted to force others to his way of thinking. He is referred to as an example of leadership because of this, but to his mind, he only leads by example. He sets the bar higher for others and himself, but never unrealistically so. He has no problem fighting and even killing for his country, but he takes no joy in this, though it occasionally weighs upon him. He has all sorts of ideas, thoughts and opinions, and he airs them when asked, but realizes a closed mouth gathers few feet and prefers to stay out of politics. Still, there are some things that spur him to action, and these are the things that either endanger this country or himself. As mentioned earlier, he's just a man. No better than anyone else, but also no worse.
My favorite Cap moment comes from the beginning of the Civil War trainwreck, where he attempts to talk everyone out of attacking him and off of the road they seem to be going down. Only once was he even remotely intimidating, and even then it was to discourage others from what they were doing, not necessarily to force them to agree with him. When attacked, he defended himself with a modicum of restraint, and made good his escape, even making things up to the guy he took hostage by buying him a quick dinner. To me, that's Cap.
That said, I still love Ulti-Cap. The A standing for France line is classic.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'm not getting that from this. All I'm getting is that he's going to be in a more average joe direction than a foaming at the mouth "You think this A stands for France" lunatic or one that's a concientcious(baaad spelling) objector. I'm still interested. Mainly because the line between patrotism and jingoism is far, far too thin nowadays.
Maybe, I'm still irritated by 'Truth, Justice, and all that stuff' from Superman. Maybe I'm just old fashioned (y'think? goes the voice in my head) but Steve, especially in a period piece, should be 'my country, right or wrong." I wouldn't mind seeing him questioning working with the Soviets (or the French) or being the moral compass who stops the outraged GI from shooting the Nazi prisoner, even if said prisoner was kicking kittens and shooting children. (Cap: "Son, he's a POW now. We don't do that to our prisoners.") At the same time, yes, the "Do you think this A stands for FRANCE" line should be in there. It's funny and it fits. Why does it seem there's a constant downplaying of Americans being the good guys? (GI Joe, Superman, etc.)
Indeed if it was my movie...
It's a rough hashed out thought, but in that montage you could put Union Jack, Spitfire, the Demolisher, etc.
Looks like another Marvel movie I will miss out on. Sigh.
Come on CJ, play along. Why? And how would you do things differently?
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Looks like another Marvel movie I will miss out on. Sigh.Come on CJ, play along. Why? And how would you do things differently?
When I have time to write, I am on break at work now and it has been busy. I will give you my take. Although I honestly think many might be upset with my take on him too though. Since Samuel Jackson would have a large part in the movie and most of it without an eye patch.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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As to what Cap/Steve means to me, he embodies what America should be*.
Good quotes that sum up Steve for me. (from Wikiquote)
Avengers, vol.1 #6
Amazing Spider-Man #537
A nation is nothing! A flag is a piece of cloth!
I fought Adolf Hitler not because America was great, but because it was fragile! I knew that liberty could be snuffed out here as in Nazi Germany! As a people, we were no different then them!
What If?, #44
Speech to Nick Fury's Howling Commandos, Dark Reign: New Nation
And yes: Surrender??!! You think this letter on my head stands for France?
Fighting against evil alien Nazis in Ultimates Vol.1
*
I'm not getting that from this. All I'm getting is that he's going to be in a more average joe direction than a foaming at the mouth "You think this A stands for France" lunatic or one that's a concientcious(baaad spelling) objector. I'm still interested. Mainly because the line between patrotism and jingoism is far, far too thin nowadays.Maybe, I'm still irritated by 'Truth, Justice, and all that stuff' from Superman. Maybe I'm just old fashioned (y'think? goes the voice in my head) but Steve, especially in a period piece, should be 'my country, right or wrong." I wouldn't mind seeing him questioning working with the Soviets (or the French) or being the moral compass who stops the outraged GI from shooting the Nazi prisoner, even if said prisoner was kicking kittens and shooting children. (Cap: "Son, he's a POW now. We don't do that to our prisoners.") At the same time, yes, the "Do you think this A stands for FRANCE" line should be in there. It's funny and it fits. Why does it seem there's a constant downplaying of Americans being the good guys? (GI Joe, Superman, etc.)
Indeed if it was my movie...
** spoiler omitted **...
As usual, good stuff. I enjoyed the stuff from the spoiler, and I think it would work- and yes, TRUTH needs to be validated, because it would have made sense in that world at that time. I would go see a Cap movie you made.
In terms of the non-spoilered stuff, I agree. Yes, you are old fashioned. It's not a bad thing, but nor is it a good thing- it's just a part of your personality that you may need to account for in conversation. And I really, REALLY like the characterization of Cap there, that should be a part of your movie.
In terms of downplaying Americans as the good guys, well, a lot of it is the pendulum swinging back the other way. A lot of conservative minded folks either don't see it, don't like admitting it, or willfully ignore it, but a lot of our movies revolve around not so much America being fundamentally right so much as non-American countries are fundamentally wrong. Either they are poor copies of America (financially[primarily with South and Central American countries], socially[a lot of the countries that were once part of the Soviet Union get this], or physically[for some reason, Canada gets this a lot]), backward cousins(the bulk of Europe), or just plain evil(Middle Eastern countries for the most part, also Germany). These are ideas that get recycled in a lot of our entertainment over and over and over again to the point that people don't question them, and when someone attempts to put the idea on its ear, they usually end up going overboard and making america seem machivellian level evil instead of simply flawed.
Why is being patriotic difficult to pull off?For a comic book serial series, not that hard to pull off.
For a two hour movie made with someone else's money? Not nearly so easy.
Because it's so many different things to so many people. To one, it will go too far. To another, it doesn't go far enough. To a third, it's so much fuss and fury and energy spent upon nothing. In the end, it leaves a group of people confused and at odds with each other, primarily because each one is trying to convince the person next to them that not necessarily that they themselves are fundamentally right, but that the person that questions them is fundamentally wrong.
But once again, and to another, CJ, play along. You've mentioned what's wrong with the Cap movie dude's starting point for the movie. How would you do things differently?
You guys are reading way too much into this. That quote is there for a very good reason.......to keep people (read: the press) who don't know anything about Captain America apart from his name and what he looks like from speculating that the character is like something out of Team America: World Police only with a straight face. Is it appropriate for something like GI Joe to be patriotic to the point of being Flavor One Eagleland?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Eagleland
Yes, yes it is. I think that the GI Joe movie suffered from them not being "America's Elite", if for no other reason than that making them an international peacekeeping force was completely arbitrary. Would it be appropriate for the USAgent? It totally would. But Steve hasn't been that simple in years. I think a lot of what Matthew talked about is the epitome of Steve (namely that scene from The Infinity Gauntlet, and that little speech from that Spider-Man issue. The end of the Avengers: Under Siege storyline. But I'm glad to hear that that idiotic "France" line isn't in the movie. That's not Captain America......that's Captain "Thugmerica", a meat-headed, simplistic bully that bears little resemblance to the REAL Captain America. And you guys DO realize that he's little more than a piss-take on American conservatism written by an extremely liberal European, right?
One more question: Do you REALLY think the guy who directed The Rocketeer and Hidalgo is going to butcher Captain America?
You guys are reading way too much into this. That quote is there for a very good reason.......to keep people (read: the press) who don't know anything about Captain America apart from his name and what he looks like from speculating that the character is like something out of Team America: World Police only with a straight face. Is it appropriate for something like GI Joe to be patriotic to the point of being Flavor One Eagleland?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Eagleland
Yes, yes it is. I think that the GI Joe movie suffered from them not being "America's Elite", if for no other reason than that making them an international peacekeeping force was completely arbitrary. Would it be appropriate for the USAgent? It totally would. But Steve hasn't been that simple in years. I think a lot of what Matthew talked about is the epitome of Steve (namely that scene from The Infinity Gauntlet, and that little speech from that Spider-Man issue. The end of the Avengers: Under Siege storyline. But I'm glad to hear that that idiotic "France" line isn't in the movie. That's not Captain America......that's Captain "Thugmerica", a meat-headed, simplistic bully that bears little resemblance to the REAL Captain America. And you guys DO realize that he's little more than a piss-take on American conservatism written by an extremely liberal European, right?
One more question: Do you REALLY think the guy who directed The Rocketeer and Hidalgo is going to butcher Captain America?
I disagree with respect to the maligning of Ulti-Cap- I think he's an interesting character, moreso than a lot of the other people that have appeared in the Ultimates line, regardless of who made him. He's not the fair haired golden boy that the "real" Cap is, but I'm not going to dismiss him just because he says or acts differently from things I believe(or rather, what my version of Cap thinks and believes).
In terms of the movie itself, good point: no. I don't think this guy is going to do Cap a disservice. I am prepared for him to be a little different, though.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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You guys are reading way too much into this. That quote is there for a very good reason.......to keep people (read: the press) who don't know anything about Captain America apart from his name and what he looks like from speculating that the character is like something out of Team America: World Police only with a straight face. Is it appropriate for something like GI Joe to be patriotic to the point of being Flavor One Eagleland?
In this case, yes. Let me give you a counterpoint...
Doctor Who.
Doctor Who is the BBC's biggest property. It is seen around the world, has spawned two successful spinoffs (even if I can only watch one, damnit). It hasn't been 'internationalized' The Doctor goes to the UK or to outerspace (in fact, the original was more cosmopolitan, Aztecs, Marco Polo, etc.) The only attempts to 'broaden' the series are generally considered failures. (The Fox Movie, Peri, (which is a shame, I liked Peri, and not just for Nicola Bryant's er, obvious talents.))
In fact, the idea of 'Americanzing' Torchwood raised a collective shudder from the nation. Why *can't* we have a WW II piece with a gung ho Captain America from that period? Steve was still enlightened for the time, and it's easy to put modern sensabilities in the movie w/o compromising what Cap stands for.
*Cap meets the Howling Commandos*, (I wish we had Gabe, but I doubt we will with Samuel L Fury)
Nick: You got a problem working with a black man?
Cap: Depends, can you shoot?
Nick: As long as I have one good eye, yes.
Cap: Good enough for me.
*Cap sees an American getting ready to shoot a prisoner, clocks the soldier.*
Cap: We're Americans, son. We don't do that. (ignoring that we did, all the allies did)
Is there a more iconic American property than Cap?
I find your post exceptionally ironic given your nickname and the meanings associated with it.
Of course since some idiot judge has decided there is a constitutional right to defraud people and pretend to be military personel, I guess nothing surprises me anymore.
Slight off topic political rant
So let me see the logic here. "We want Bush out because he's a War Criminal! We'll ignore the lack of proof and sense behind those statements! We want to replace him with... an admitted war criminal! Wait...
Is there a more iconic American property than Cap?
Spidey?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Is there a more iconic American property than Cap?Spidey?
It's funny, they're similar in a way, except Steve was empowered by the government, and Pete by the spider.
According to Stan Lee, part of the concept of Peter was that really it could be everyone under the tights (figuratively speaking, you wouldn't want me in Spidey Spandex). Peter is everyman.
I was going to say Superman, but he's not 'born and bred' One could make the argument that he's the ultimate representation of immigrants reaching their full potential in America though.
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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What Cap means to me:
Cap is the ultimate good guy. He's similar to Superman in that respect, but he does not have the huge array of superpowers that Superman does, which makes him more of an Everyman character. He always does the right thing, and stands up for what he believes - regardless of the odds stacked against him.
He represents the concept of the United States as a symbol of truth, justice, and equality for all, and is willing to question governmental policies and decisions when they go against the concepts of fairness and justice inherent to the country envisioned by our forefathers.
Cap is not just a patriot - he is the conscience of the United States.
Cap is the one person everyone (heroes AND the common man) turns to in their hour of need/moment of indecision because they KNOW they can count on Cap to come through for them. Cap always perseveres.
Unquestioned loyalty. Unwavering integrity. Unquestioned heroics. No one does it better than Cap.
(Yes, I'm a HUGE Captain America fanboy. Been that way since I was a kid. Spider-man and Cap have been my favorites since I first learned to read).
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Slightly OT, but sign me up for THIS. I have a good chunk of Mark Waid's run on Cap, and there are times when I feel out of place.
(took a survey at work on generations. According to it, I'm a 'radio boomer' socially, but 'gen Y' technologically. Which is funny since I'm Gen X chronologically)
In fact, the idea of 'Americanzing' Torchwood raised a collective shudder from the nation. Why *can't* we have a WW II piece with a gung ho Captain America from that period? Steve was still enlightened for the time, and it's easy to put modern sensabilities in the movie w/o compromising what Cap stands for.
Well, that's just the thing- how are you going to show someone who is enlightened "for their time" and not have them seem at least a bit backward or hidebound by today's standards, PC or not? That's one thing I liked about Ulti-Cap: he still showed he was backwards in some ways, and I'm glad they kept that in ultimates even though some people complained.
What Cap means to me:
Cap is the ultimate good guy. He's similar to Superman in that respect, but he does not have the huge array of superpowers that Superman does, which makes him more of an Everyman character. He always does the right thing, and stands up for what he believes - regardless of the odds stacked against him.
He represents the concept of the United States as a symbol of truth, justice, and equality for all, and is willing to question governmental policies and decisions when they go against the concepts of fairness and justice inherent to the country envisioned by our forefathers.
Cap is not just a patriot - he is the conscience of the United States.Cap is the one person everyone (heroes AND the common man) turns to in their hour of need/moment of indecision because they KNOW they can count on Cap to come through for them. Cap always perseveres.
Unquestioned loyalty. Unwavering integrity. Unquestioned heroics. No one does it better than Cap.
(Yes, I'm a HUGE Captain America fanboy. Been that way since I was a kid. Spider-man and Cap have been my favorites since I first learned to read).
I would agree though I could see his loyalty and his role as the "conscious" coming into conflict. I would see Cap as following the chain of command, even in cases where he may not agree with the orders.
Of course, bringing Cap into a situation that is morally questionable is like asking a LE genie for a wish. Oh you'll get your command done by the letter, but he's going to do it his way, and any wiggle room that is placed in the orders is likely to come back in your face.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Well, that's just the thing- how are you going to show someone who is enlightened "for their time" and not have them seem at least a bit backward or hidebound by today's standards, PC or not? That's one thing I liked about Ulti-Cap: he still showed he was backwards in some ways, and I'm glad they kept that in ultimates even though some people complained.
In fact, the idea of 'Americanzing' Torchwood raised a collective shudder from the nation. Why *can't* we have a WW II piece with a gung ho Captain America from that period? Steve was still enlightened for the time, and it's easy to put modern sensabilities in the movie w/o compromising what Cap stands for.
I think that having 1940's sensibilites that aren't *as* offensive but still raise hackles. "You're a credit to your race, son" from Justice League comes to mind. I loved that because it was a period appropriate comment, but it still makes the viewer wince, even knowing it wasn't meant negatively. Holding doors, expecting Peggy to get the coffee, those kind of things.
Even calling the Germans 'Krauts' come to mind. In fact I'd like to see that contrast, during the fighting calling on the soldiers to 'pin those Krauts/Goosesteppers down' then reinforcing the 'we don't mistreat prisoners of war.' bit.At the same time, while I'm not keen on seeing Black Widow in the Avengers, I'd love to see her in the briefing and Cap nonchalantly ask for coffee or something. That's the anachronism I want to see portrayed. Steve may be enlightned enough for a 1940's guy to accept that a woman can fight and do a 'man's job' but it's not his default assumption.
Offensive, not so much. Incredibly dumb, that's a horse of a different color. Consider me a Cap fan who thinks Millar's Cap is a belligerent jerk.And yes, I've heard Cap is to be a USO mascot. Insert retching here.He's already in a series of free comics that are distributed to American troops in theater.I don't have the link handy, but the draft mentioned in the Hollywood reporter says that the plot is/was after the super soldier serum worked and the creator was killed, Steve's solely put in the USO, as a mascot, because 'they don't want to lose him'. He's the one who sneaks out against orders and does the 'super-hero' thing.
I guess in that script, we didn't drop Little Boy because it was our only remaining nuke and we didn't want to use it...
And yes, the Ultimates Cap, and the outfit they show in 'Reborn' both would work for a WW II cap.
And please, I don't care who it offends, they have to have "Does this A on my forehead stand for France!?!"
Are you kiddin' me?
He was perfectly accurate to the archtypical american of his day. All john Wayne and Clint Eastwood rolled up into a ball of good old fashioned american kickass. That scene wasn't dumb, it was priceless.
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What Cap means to me:
Cap is the ultimate good guy. He's similar to Superman in that respect, but he does not have the huge array of superpowers that Superman does, which makes him more of an Everyman character. He always does the right thing, and stands up for what he believes - regardless of the odds stacked against him.
He represents the concept of the United States as a symbol of truth, justice, and equality for all, and is willing to question governmental policies and decisions when they go against the concepts of fairness and justice inherent to the country envisioned by our forefathers.
Cap is not just a patriot - he is the conscience of the United States.
This covers it for me.
In this case, yes. Let me give you a counterpoint...
Doctor Who.
Doctor Who is the BBC's biggest property. It is seen around the world, has spawned two successful spinoffs (even if I can only watch one, damnit). It hasn't been 'internationalized' The Doctor goes to the UK or to outerspace (in fact, the original was more cosmopolitan, Aztecs, Marco Polo, etc.) The only attempts to 'broaden' the series are generally considered failures. (The Fox Movie, Peri, (which is a shame, I liked Peri, and not just for Nicola Bryant's er, obvious talents.))
In fact, the idea of 'Americanzing' Torchwood raised a collective shudder from the nation. Why *can't* we have a WW II piece with a gung ho Captain America from that period? Steve was still enlightened for the time, and it's easy to put modern sensabilities in the movie w/o compromising what Cap stands for.
** spoiler omitted **
Is there a more iconic American property than Cap?
I find your post exceptionally ironic given your nickname and the meanings...
You seem to have COMPLETELY missed my point, so I'll reiterate it, even more concisely: Based on Johnston's track record as a director, Captain America is NOT going to be internationalized. The statement he made is misdirection for factions in the press who would be looking to paint this project as nothing more than rah-rah propaganda, when there's so much more to Steve Rogers, and his story, than JUST that. If you beleive that Johnston is going to water down Cap, then I have a lovely bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in buying. To sum up: based on Johnston's previous films (including work on some of the CLASSIC action set pieces of the last 30-odd years), the promotional art released for the film, and Marvel Studios' track record with films thus far, there's no reason to worry about this at this point in time.
Ironic? Rightttttt, because I'm a big fan of the Winter Soldier hearings, and not former Cap sidekick/Winter Soldier/Cap Bucky Barnes......
What Cap means to me:
Cap is the ultimate good guy. He's similar to Superman in that respect, but he does not have the huge array of superpowers that Superman does, which makes him more of an Everyman character. He always does the right thing, and stands up for what he believes - regardless of the odds stacked against him.
He represents the concept of the United States as a symbol of truth, justice, and equality for all, and is willing to question governmental policies and decisions when they go against the concepts of fairness and justice inherent to the country envisioned by our forefathers.
Cap is not just a patriot - he is the conscience of the United States.Cap is the one person everyone (heroes AND the common man) turns to in their hour of need/moment of indecision because they KNOW they can count on Cap to come through for them. Cap always perseveres.
Unquestioned loyalty. Unwavering integrity. Unquestioned heroics. No one does it better than Cap.
(Yes, I'm a HUGE Captain America fanboy. Been that way since I was a kid. Spider-man and Cap have been my favorites since I first learned to read).
Dead on. Cap really is Superman's equivalent in the Marvel Universe.
This covers it for me.What Cap means to me:
Cap is the ultimate good guy. He's similar to Superman in that respect, but he does not have the huge array of superpowers that Superman does, which makes him more of an Everyman character. He always does the right thing, and stands up for what he believes - regardless of the odds stacked against him.
He represents the concept of the United States as a symbol of truth, justice, and equality for all, and is willing to question governmental policies and decisions when they go against the concepts of fairness and justice inherent to the country envisioned by our forefathers.
Cap is not just a patriot - he is the conscience of the United States.
Yeah that was all great until Civil War. Blah blah blazah we're doing the right thing here blah blah OH GAWD I've MADE A HIDEOUS MISTAKE Blah blah...
The first half of civil war Cap was amazing, but the second half he just felt like a sellout and *personally* I'd say that someone as intelligent as cap would have, y'know, stuck bythe moral line he'd been standing on.
I think the problem with 616 Cap is that he's a little one dimensional of a character sometimes. He's a great representation of the public face of 50's america but he doesn't show the real side of his own time.
Personally, I far prefer the captain america depicted in Marvel 1602 or The Ultimates because they have a darker, grittier side. Captain America is also supposed to be the ultimate warrior, and people die in war.
Dead on. Cap really is Superman's equivalent in the Marvel Universe.What Cap means to me:
Cap is the ultimate good guy. He's similar to Superman in that respect, but he does not have the huge array of superpowers that Superman does, which makes him more of an Everyman character. He always does the right thing, and stands up for what he believes - regardless of the odds stacked against him.
He represents the concept of the United States as a symbol of truth, justice, and equality for all, and is willing to question governmental policies and decisions when they go against the concepts of fairness and justice inherent to the country envisioned by our forefathers.
Cap is not just a patriot - he is the conscience of the United States.Cap is the one person everyone (heroes AND the common man) turns to in their hour of need/moment of indecision because they KNOW they can count on Cap to come through for them. Cap always perseveres.
Unquestioned loyalty. Unwavering integrity. Unquestioned heroics. No one does it better than Cap.
(Yes, I'm a HUGE Captain America fanboy. Been that way since I was a kid. Spider-man and Cap have been my favorites since I first learned to read).
Yeah Cap is pretty amazing. Cap almost always perseveres, until Civil War *grumble*.
One of my favorite Cap moments was back in Infinity Gauntlet when he's squaring off against Thanos. No hope of victory, no chance of survival, just cap valiantly fighting against an opponent he knows he has no chance of defeating. Or the classic cap Red Skull standoff, when Red Skull has the cosmic cube. Utterly and amazingly heroic.
Dead on. Cap really is Superman's equivalent in the Marvel Universe.What Cap means to me:
Cap is the ultimate good guy. He's similar to Superman in that respect, but he does not have the huge array of superpowers that Superman does, which makes him more of an Everyman character. He always does the right thing, and stands up for what he believes - regardless of the odds stacked against him.
He represents the concept of the United States as a symbol of truth, justice, and equality for all, and is willing to question governmental policies and decisions when they go against the concepts of fairness and justice inherent to the country envisioned by our forefathers.
Cap is not just a patriot - he is the conscience of the United States.Cap is the one person everyone (heroes AND the common man) turns to in their hour of need/moment of indecision because they KNOW they can count on Cap to come through for them. Cap always perseveres.
Unquestioned loyalty. Unwavering integrity. Unquestioned heroics. No one does it better than Cap.
(Yes, I'm a HUGE Captain America fanboy. Been that way since I was a kid. Spider-man and Cap have been my favorites since I first learned to read).
Yeah Cap is pretty amazing. Cap almost always perseveres, until Civil War *grumble*.
One of my favorite Cap moments was back in Infinity Gauntlet when he's squaring off against Thanos. No hope of victory, no chance of survival, just cap valiantly fighting against an opponent he knows he has no chance of defeating. Or the classic cap Red Skull standoff, when Red Skull has the cosmic cube. Utterly and amazingly heroic.
There is also the end of Secret Wars, where he is going after Doom (who has the powers of the Beyonder), and Doom blasts him, and then remakes him instantly because in Doom's heart he knows it is truly impossible to stop someone like Cap.
For the DS-9 fans, it reminds me of the Worf-Jem'Hadar fight in the prison camp. The Jem'Hadar says, "I can not defeat this Klingon, I can only kill him."
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Personally, I far prefer the captain america depicted in Marvel 1602 or The Ultimates because they have a darker, grittier side. Captain America is also supposed to be the ultimate warrior, and people die in war.
Blah, imo Ultimate Cap is a d-bag and just a vehicle for Millar to vent his politics. I liked the Ultimates but more for Hitch's drawings then anything Millar wrote since he took all the Avengers and made them a bunch of jerks. And if I want a dark and gritty superhero, I'll go and read some comics from the '90s.
Personally, I far prefer the captain america depicted in Marvel 1602 or The Ultimates because they have a darker, grittier side. Captain America is also supposed to be the ultimate warrior, and people die in war.Blah, imo Ultimate Cap is a d-bag and just a vehicle for Millar to vent his politics. I liked the Ultimates but more for Hitch's drawings then anything Millar wrote since he took all the Avengers and made them a bunch of jerks. And if I want a dark and gritty superhero, I'll go and read some comics from the '90s.
I see where you're coming from, but the idea of a captain america who waltzes through life never showing the stain of the things he's had to do in the name of his country is a little too 50's "we're all alright!" for me. He killed people in the war, he had to, and the idea that he'd balk at doing that again always seemed a little too disingenuous to me.
Edit-- I think a lot of that has to do with being in the military and realizing what's done on a battle field. I like Cap being a hero too, but maybe always felt like he was a little TOO good.
Edit-- I think a lot of that has to do with being in the military and realizing what's done on a battle field. I like Cap being a hero too, but maybe always felt like he was a little TOO good.
I disagree. I don't think Waid or Busiek wrote him like that, and Brubaker CERTAINLY doesn't write Steve as a milqutoast.
What CJ said.....I want to LIKE my heroes. Ultimate Cap is too sadistic. He enjoys beating down helpless opponents (Bruce Banner), and people under his weight class (Hank Pym) way too much. I'm trying to avoid getting on the topic of Ultimate Marvel, because (save Spider-Man), it sucks all the fun out of those characters. Grim and boring Hawkeye. Hank Pym spraying Janet Pym with bug spray. A depraved Hulk. The Blob EATING the Wasp. It's all Comics For Dummies.
Chuck Dixon on this:
"Sub-literates are not illiterate. In fact, most sub-literates read more than the average person. Because of this they consider themselves well-read and that their opinion is more valid than yours. But they read within a very narrow range of literature and shape their worldview around it. They take what they read very personally and are dismissive and intolerant of anything outside of the tiny area of their interests. These are the people who become upset when a favorite book or group or movie gains mass appeal. Why? Because now it is no longer exclusively "theirs."
You will find them working behind the counters of college bookstores. Or waiting in line at the multiplex explaining to someone why the Aeon Flux cartoons were better than the movie. Or writing fan fiction on their laptop at Starbucks praying that someone asks them what they're writing. Unfortunately, they also provide most of the opinion makers in comics that the companies foolishly listen to.
On to comic book profanity.
Superman and Spider-man should never talk like "real" people. They aren't real people. They are fictional contrivances. In addition to that, most of the folks writing comics don't ever talk to "real" people and have no idea what they talk like. Uh...you know? "Real" dialogue in comics these days means that the writer has written as close to the patois of a Quentin Tarentino movie as his talents will allow. It means that he has watched enough episodes of Buffy to get the characters speech patterns down.
Also, Superman and Spider-man should never use foul language no matter how many warning stickers you place on their publications. They should never be shown urinating. Or having sexual relations. They should never be diagnosed with cancer or be treated for AIDs. They should never learn that they were molested as a child. They should never have many of the things happen to them that happen to real people every day.
I grew up reading comics and was attracted to them precisely because I will never fight Dr Octopus or fly to another planet to rescue a civilization from destruction. And while being thrilled and amazed by the adventures of the heroes I loved and admired, I also learned lessons about courage, loyalty and kindness. My heroes did not have feet of clay. They were icons. Towers of virtue. They had human flaws but were not flawed humans. They had runs of bad luck and misfortune but came out the other side of them a stronger, more determined hero.
Superheroes are escapist fiction for children. You may like them and read their adventures as an adult but recall that their primary audience is children. Those millions of kids playing with action figures (actually removing them from their blister cards and playing with them on the living room carpet and in the backyard dirt) and watching cartoons and snuggling under Ninja Turtles comforters.
And I am NOT putting superheroes down in any sense of the word. I still read comics. I WRITE the darned things and get a kick out of scripting masked guys and gals doing crazy, crazy stuff.
As much as anyone might want to hold on to their childhood fantasies by having their favorite superheroes grow up along with them, it is wrong to want it to be so. If Spider-man uses foul language then it becomes a part of him and can never be taken away or ret-conned out of existance. And there cannot be two Spider-mans; one for the sublitertates and one the rest of the world enjoys. There is not an adult version of Donald Duck just to keep his longtime fans happy. (Not that they wouldn't be outraged by the very idead.) These characters have very long lives. Longer than any of us will be alive. They must be maintained and carefully watched over.
It is possible to continue to have compelling adventures of your favorite characters that satisfy both the mass-appeal younger audience and the older devotee of the medium. But it requires skilled writing and long term planning and storylines far more sophisticated than the "stunt" storylines we see so often these days.
Which is the more "mature" recent movie dealing in universal themes? Hostel? Or the latest Harry Potter?"
A Quote from Dixon
I would say he's falling a bit into his own stereotype of sub literates here regarding some of his later comments.
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I see where you're coming from, but the idea of a captain america who waltzes through life never showing the stain of the things he's had to do in the name of his country is a little too 50's "we're all alright!" for me. He killed people in the war, he had to, and the idea that he'd balk at doing that again always seemed a little too disingenuous to me.
I see where you're coming from and it's a valid point.
But I'm in the same boat as winter_soldier, there are a few superheroes like Superman, SpiderMan, Cap, the FF, etc. who I keep on a pedestal in my head. I grew up reading them and they were not just ordinary people with petty everyday problems (well, maybe Spidey was) but heroes who represent all that is good and all that we could aspire to be. Mind you, I don't mind Cap shooting someone in the middle of a battle, it's the personality quirks from the Ultimates that bother me more. I wouldn't put it past Millar to have Ultimate Cap mistreat prisoners or accept collateral damage to civilians in order to win. He's a great warrior but he's not a superhero in my book.
Well, that's just the thing- how are you going to show someone who is enlightened "for their time" and not have them seem at least a bit backward or hidebound by today's standards, PC or not? That's one thing I liked about Ulti-Cap: he still showed he was backwards in some ways, and I'm glad they kept that in ultimates even though some people complained.
In fact, the idea of 'Americanzing' Torchwood raised a collective shudder from the nation. Why *can't* we have a WW II piece with a gung ho Captain America from that period? Steve was still enlightened for the time, and it's easy to put modern sensabilities in the movie w/o compromising what Cap stands for.I think that having 1940's sensibilites that aren't *as* offensive but still raise hackles. "You're a credit to your race, son" from Justice League comes to mind. I loved that because it was a period appropriate comment, but it still makes the viewer wince, even knowing it wasn't meant negatively. Holding doors, expecting Peggy to get the coffee, those kind of things.
Even calling the Germans 'Krauts' come to mind. In fact I'd like to see that contrast, during the fighting calling on the soldiers to 'pin those Krauts/Goosesteppers down' then reinforcing the 'we don't mistreat prisoners of war.' bit.At the same time, while I'm not keen on seeing Black Widow in the Avengers, I'd love to see her in the briefing and Cap nonchalantly ask for coffee or something. That's the anachronism I want to see portrayed. Steve may be enlightned enough for a 1940's guy to accept that a woman can fight and do a 'man's job' but it's not his default assumption.
After this, I'd like to see you write a Cap screenplay, if you have the time. I think your take on him would be interesting for a movie.
I see where you're coming from, but the idea of a captain america who waltzes through life never showing the stain of the things he's had to do in the name of his country is a little too 50's "we're all alright!" for me. He killed people in the war, he had to, and the idea that he'd balk at doing that again always seemed a little too disingenuous to me.
I see where you're coming from and it's a valid point.
But I'm in the same boat as winter_soldier, there are a few superheroes like Superman, SpiderMan, Cap, the FF, etc. who I keep on a pedestal in my head. I grew up reading them and they were not just ordinary people with petty everyday problems (well, maybe Spidey was) but heroes who represent all that is good and all that we could aspire to be. Mind you, I don't mind Cap shooting someone in the middle of a battle, it's the personality quirks from the Ultimates that bother me more. I wouldn't put it past Millar to have Ultimate Cap mistreat prisoners or accept collateral damage to civilians in order to win. He's a great warrior but he's not a superhero in my book.
I must disagree here. Just because he's strong minded and a bit of a jerk doesn't mean he would turn a blind eye to offenses. Quite the opposite, I'd say. But I don't think we're going to see that in this comic, Millar or no.
A Quote from DixonI would say he's falling a bit into his own stereotype of sub literates here regarding some of his later comments.
I post pretty regularly on Dixon's board. He can definitely put out a "know it all/you darned kids know nothing" vibe from time to time, but the guy IS really smart, and he understands the medium much better than he's routinely given credit for.
I must disagree here. Just because he's strong minded and a bit of a jerk doesn't mean he would turn a blind eye to offenses. Quite the opposite, I'd say. But I don't think we're going to see that in this comic, Millar or no.I see where you're coming from, but the idea of a captain america who waltzes through life never showing the stain of the things he's had to do in the name of his country is a little too 50's "we're all alright!" for me. He killed people in the war, he had to, and the idea that he'd balk at doing that again always seemed a little too disingenuous to me.
I see where you're coming from and it's a valid point.
But I'm in the same boat as winter_soldier, there are a few superheroes like Superman, SpiderMan, Cap, the FF, etc. who I keep on a pedestal in my head. I grew up reading them and they were not just ordinary people with petty everyday problems (well, maybe Spidey was) but heroes who represent all that is good and all that we could aspire to be. Mind you, I don't mind Cap shooting someone in the middle of a battle, it's the personality quirks from the Ultimates that bother me more. I wouldn't put it past Millar to have Ultimate Cap mistreat prisoners or accept collateral damage to civilians in order to win. He's a great warrior but he's not a superhero in my book.
When you can curl 500lbs, kicking a helpless 98lb weakling in the face goes far beyond being "a bit of a jerk".
Personally, I far prefer the captain america depicted in Marvel 1602 or The Ultimates because they have a darker, grittier side. Captain America is also supposed to be the ultimate warrior, and people die in war.Blah, imo Ultimate Cap is a d-bag and just a vehicle for Millar to vent his politics. I liked the Ultimates but more for Hitch's drawings then anything Millar wrote since he took all the Avengers and made them a bunch of jerks. And if I want a dark and gritty superhero, I'll go and read some comics from the '90s.
A little unfair for those of us who want a bit of claret, as the 90s have been over for several years. The characters that came out of that period are still beloved and are still followed; many could be credited with keeping the genre alive in some respects while the big two diddled with alternate realties and clones.
When you can curl 500lbs, kicking a helpless 98lb weakling in the face goes far beyond being "a bit of a jerk".I must disagree here. Just because he's strong minded and a bit of a jerk doesn't mean he would turn a blind eye to offenses. Quite the opposite, I'd say. But I don't think we're going to see that in this comic, Millar or no.I see where you're coming from, but the idea of a captain america who waltzes through life never showing the stain of the things he's had to do in the name of his country is a little too 50's "we're all alright!" for me. He killed people in the war, he had to, and the idea that he'd balk at doing that again always seemed a little too disingenuous to me.
I see where you're coming from and it's a valid point.
But I'm in the same boat as winter_soldier, there are a few superheroes like Superman, SpiderMan, Cap, the FF, etc. who I keep on a pedestal in my head. I grew up reading them and they were not just ordinary people with petty everyday problems (well, maybe Spidey was) but heroes who represent all that is good and all that we could aspire to be. Mind you, I don't mind Cap shooting someone in the middle of a battle, it's the personality quirks from the Ultimates that bother me more. I wouldn't put it past Millar to have Ultimate Cap mistreat prisoners or accept collateral damage to civilians in order to win. He's a great warrior but he's not a superhero in my book.
Wasn't this done to make him turn into the Hulk? Or was this done to boost Banner for his lunch money?
EDIT- Banner is THE HULK. He's far from helpless.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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You seem to have COMPLETELY missed my point, so I'll reiterate it, even more concisely: Based on Johnston's track record as a director, Captain America is NOT going to be internationalized. The statement he made is misdirection for factions in the press who would be looking to paint this project as nothing more than rah-rah propaganda, when there's so much more to Steve Rogers, and his story, than JUST that. If you beleive that Johnston is going to water down Cap, then I have a lovely bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in buying. To sum up: based on Johnston's previous films (including work on some of the CLASSIC action set pieces of the last 30-odd years), the promotional art released for the film, and Marvel Studios' track record with films thus far, there's no reason to worry about this at this point in time.
Ironic? Rightttttt, because I'm a big fan of the Winter Soldier hearings, and not former Cap sidekick/Winter Soldier/Cap Bucky Barnes......
And you seem to have missed my point, based on other projects HOLLYWOOD has put out, I am concerned, I don't know this director's body of work, I'm hoping it is as enjoyable as Iron Man is. I am however concerned on it being 'watered down' for an international audience.
And you also seem to have missed my last link, which was to Jim's bio. I'd gotten out of comics when Truth came out and am just getting back in. I'm enjoying Secret Avengers and Super Soldier so far, but I don't know enough about Jim's new history to really care about him being Cap. Bucky should have stayed dead, and I don't know why Brubaker used such a contraversial name for his 'assassin days'. Him and Uncle Ben were really the only constant in the Marvel universe.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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A little unfair for those of us who want a bit of claret, as the 90s have been over for several years. The characters that came out of that period are still beloved and are still followed; many could be credited with keeping the genre alive in some respects while the big two diddled with alternate realties and clones.
Have you followed the 'Shatterstar controversy'? It's been rather amusing watching a Liefield character get three dimensional under someone else's pen, and Liefield's reaction. "He's not gay, he's a soldier, like a Spartan!" was exceptionally humourus.
A little unfair for those of us who want a bit of claret, as the 90s have been over for several years. The characters that came out of that period are still beloved and are still followed; many could be credited with keeping the genre alive in some respects while the big two diddled with alternate realties and clones.Have you followed the 'Shatterstar controversy'? It's been rather amusing watching a Liefield character get three dimensional under someone else's pen, and Liefield's reaction. "He's not gay, he's a soldier, like a Spartan!" was exceptionally humourus.
That WAS pretty hilarious.
@ Winter Soldier
You know, that was a direct insult you posted about Comics for Dummies. That whole post was snobby, and pretty arrogant.
I'm not wrong for liking what I like, no more then you are, and niether of our tastes validate or invalidate anything.
You seem to have COMPLETELY missed my point, so I'll reiterate it, even more concisely: Based on Johnston's track record as a director, Captain America is NOT going to be internationalized. The statement he made is misdirection for factions in the press who would be looking to paint this project as nothing more than rah-rah propaganda, when there's so much more to Steve Rogers, and his story, than JUST that. If you beleive that Johnston is going to water down Cap, then I have a lovely bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in buying. To sum up: based on Johnston's previous films (including work on some of the CLASSIC action set pieces of the last 30-odd years), the promotional art released for the film, and Marvel Studios' track record with films thus far, there's no reason to worry about this at this point in time.
Ironic? Rightttttt, because I'm a big fan of the Winter Soldier hearings, and not former Cap sidekick/Winter Soldier/Cap Bucky Barnes......
And you seem to have missed my point, based on other projects HOLLYWOOD has put out, I am concerned, I don't know this director's body of work, I'm hoping it is as enjoyable as Iron Man is. I am however concerned on it being 'watered down' for an international audience.
And you also seem to have missed my last link, which was to Jim's bio. I'd gotten out of comics when Truth came out and am just getting back in. I'm enjoying Secret Avengers and Super Soldier so far, but I don't know enough about Jim's new history to really care about him being Cap. Bucky should have stayed dead, and I don't know why Brubaker used such a contraversial name for his 'assassin days'. Him and Uncle Ben were really the only constant in the Marvel universe.
Brubaker SHOULDN'T have been able to pull off bringing Bucky back, but he did. And fair's fair: Bucky NEVER died on-panel.....only in Steve's memories, in flashback. Brubaker's run has had one or two slow spots, but has been really, really good.
As for Johnston:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0002653/