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When we do branch out into the solar system I hope Castrovel gets worked on first (half naked psionic lizard riding chicks for the win.) After that I would like to see Akiton worked on because I imagine it as having a Barsoom meets Dark Sun sort of feel.
BARSOOM, BARSOOM, BARSOOM...
Sorry it has become obligatory.
Ustalav is my new Ravenloft, so I'm now offically Golarian exclusive for my fantasy RPG fix. :)
I saw the maps for the first release campaign setting, and thought to myself how familiar they were. If this indeed can incorporate my Ravenloft setting, as well as the things I like about the Forgotten Realms, I may actually have to consider selling off my FR books (GASP!!). They're mostly collectng dust right now as it is; never got a complete world picture since they stopped making region books prior to going 4th Ed, and I am SO not going to buy 4th Ed.
On the other hand, there's still a lot of useful material in those books...
I'll have to to wait for Paizo's own region books to come out, I guess.
Above the rules refinement, Paizo is cutting edge as far as getting the best adventure authors in the industry today.
Not just adventure writers: Did you see who the author of their soon-to-be-released Golarion novel 'Winter Witch' is?
None other than Elaine Cunningham, one of the BEST (IMO) Realms and Ravenloft authors I have ever had the pleasure of reading. I am absolutely thrilled that she will be writing novels for Golarion.
There i enough of Golarian that still hasn't been covered that I doubt Paizo will branch out into other worlds. When they do I think it's very likely that they will expand on the other populated worlds in the Golaran system before they do anything else. Besides, most of what the OP wants can be done in Golarian as it is. Qadira is already set up to provide tons of Al-Qadim style excitement and there are realms where gothic horror is the genre of the day, and so on and so forth. About the only old D&D setting that I don't think could be played in Golarian is Red Steel and Dark Sun.
Edit: And if I wrong I hope someone will tell me how to do it.
I agree.
by the way, GolariOn, not GolariAn
GRU
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Does that same attitude hold towards the Star Wars RPG license? I'm just curious if that's one of the few possible exceptions...Absolutely. As A Man In Black mentions, we DID have a Star Wars magazine license for a while, and when Lucasfilm took that license back in house (to control it more tightly, I believe, at about the point that one of the prequels were coming out), things got pretty scary and rough at Paizo for a bit... possibly on par with when WotC decided not to renew the D&D magazine licenses. It was not a happy time at Paizo in either case.
While working on Star Wars stuff and D&D stuff WAS very fun and exciting and rewarding, it was also stressful... especially when those licenses ended. I'm relatively sure no one here wants to set us up for a "threepeat" by getting deeply involved with licensed properties again.
Im really happy you guys have been able to overcome these obstacles and succeed. I love your products and love the community you have put together here. To hell with those other companies and their licenses Im PAIZO 4 LIFE!!
Creative Director
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The article about Golarion's solar system appears in Pathfinder #14. The information (including the map of the solar system) will be compressed and represented somewhat in the upcoming Pathfinder Campaign Setting revision as well, but for now, Pathfinder #14's article (which includes stats for several aliens as new monsters!) is the go-to place for info on the other planets.Hmm... I was really hopeing you'd be bolder and brassier and go for something more along the lines of a flat land resting on four horses riding on the back of a giant turtle than go for a plain jane Sol-type astronomy. Even Tolkien used the Flat Earth model, at least at start for Aman.
I never could understand the pressing need to justify fantasy settings on a scientific basis.
There's basically two reasons we decided not to go with turtles all the way down.
1) A lot of us at Paizo are big science-fiction fans in ADDITION to being fantasy fans, and are quite fond of mixing the genres, be it in a Planet Stories style or something more like "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks." And using sci-fi tropes in adventures is fun too, even when there's no obvious technological elements involved... such as having an adventure be about a meteorite that brings some dangerous aliens down to the planet.
2) By assuming that the rules for existence work the same in Golarion as they do in the real world, we save ourselves a LOT of time in figuring out how everything works. And if there's a strong underlying of science and realism supporting the world, then when we DO do something fantastic and magical then it actually FEELS fantastic and magical. If everything works on magic, it's not as unusual or mysterious or, frankly, as interesting, since it's easy to get blase about the fantastic. We don't want the fantastic to become mundane.
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The article about Golarion's solar system appears in Pathfinder #14. The information (including the map of the solar system) will be compressed and represented somewhat in the upcoming Pathfinder Campaign Setting revision as well, but for now, Pathfinder #14's article (which includes stats for several aliens as new monsters!) is the go-to place for info on the other planets.Hmm... I was really hopeing you'd be bolder and brassier and go for something more along the lines of a flat land resting on four horses riding on the back of a giant turtle than go for a plain jane Sol-type astronomy. Even Tolkien used the Flat Earth model, at least at start for Aman.
I never could understand the pressing need to justify fantasy settings on a scientific basis.
There's basically two reasons we decided not to go with turtles all the way down.
1) A lot of us at Paizo are big science-fiction fans in ADDITION to being fantasy fans, and are quite fond of mixing the genres, be it in a Planet Stories style or something more like "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks." And using sci-fi tropes in adventures is fun too, even when there's no obvious technological elements involved... such as having an adventure be about a meteorite that brings some dangerous aliens down to the planet.
2) By assuming that the rules for existence work the same in Golarion as they do in the real world, we save ourselves a LOT of time in figuring out how everything works. And if there's a strong underlying of science and realism supporting the world, then when we DO do something fantastic and magical then it actually FEELS fantastic and magical. If everything works on magic, it's not as unusual or mysterious or, frankly, as interesting, since it's easy to get blase about the fantastic. We don't want the fantastic to become mundane.
The ultimate 'Turtles All The Way Down' is probably Pratchett.
And even he has spent time making sure that the mountains are in the right place to bring rains to the correct plains, etc. etc.
When we do branch out into the solar system I hope Castrovel gets worked on first (half naked psionic lizard riding chicks for the win.) After that I would like to see Akiton worked on because I imagine it as having a Barsoom meets Dark Sun sort of feel.BARSOOM, BARSOOM, BARSOOM...
Sorry it has become obligatory.
AKITON AKITON AKITON!!!!The Red Planet
The article about Golarion's solar system appears in Pathfinder #14. The information (including the map of the solar system) will be compressed and represented somewhat in the upcoming Pathfinder Campaign Setting revision as well, but for now, Pathfinder #14's article (which includes stats for several aliens as new monsters!) is the go-to place for info on the other planets.Hmm... I was really hopeing you'd be bolder and brassier and go for something more along the lines of a flat land resting on four horses riding on the back of a giant turtle than go for a plain jane Sol-type astronomy. Even Tolkien used the Flat Earth model, at least at start for Aman.
I never could understand the pressing need to justify fantasy settings on a scientific basis.
There's basically two reasons we decided not to go with turtles all the way down.
1) A lot of us at Paizo are big science-fiction fans in ADDITION to being fantasy fans, and are quite fond of mixing the genres, be it in a Planet Stories style or something more like "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks." And using sci-fi tropes in adventures is fun too, even when there's no obvious technological elements involved... such as having an adventure be about a meteorite that brings some dangerous aliens down to the planet.
2) By assuming that the rules for existence work the same in Golarion as they do in the real world, we save ourselves a LOT of time in figuring out how everything works. And if there's a strong underlying of science and realism supporting the world, then when we DO do something fantastic and magical then it actually FEELS fantastic and magical. If everything works on magic, it's not as unusual or mysterious or, frankly, as interesting, since it's easy to get blase about the fantastic. We don't want the fantastic to become mundane.
The ultimate 'Turtles All The Way Down' is probably Pratchett.
And even he has spent time making sure that the...
I for one am just as happy that you have kept things normal. The only thing I really hated about Spelljammer was the crystal spheres thing, and I'd still love to know what they were smoking at TSR when they decided to go with that and all the other Ptolemaic crap.
I will be thrilled if you resurrect the Shadow of the Spider Moon system you published in Polyhedron several years ago.
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Creative Director
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I will be thrilled if you resurrect the Shadow of the Spider Moon system you published in Polyhedron several years ago.
Unfortunately, that (along with everything else we published in Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron) is the property of Wizards of the Coast, and is thus off limits for us.
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AKITON AKITON AKITON!!!!The Red PlanetWhen we do branch out into the solar system I hope Castrovel gets worked on first (half naked psionic lizard riding chicks for the win.) After that I would like to see Akiton worked on because I imagine it as having a Barsoom meets Dark Sun sort of feel.BARSOOM, BARSOOM, BARSOOM...
Sorry it has become obligatory.
Yes, but I keep hoping for a Barsoom type of place rather than a random new planet...
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One of the mistakes that ultimately led to the failure of TSR was their proliferation of campaign settings—their customers self-identified as a Realms player or a Greyhawk player, or whatever, and would only consider material specifically branded to them.Which Wizards of the Coast settled with the Spellplague...
Well, there was very little support given to Greyhawk by WOTC other than publishing the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer and the Living Greyhawk Campaign in the RPGA.
The other worlds in Golarion's solar system would do well as new settings, particularly Castrovel and Akiton. (There are references to psionics on Castrovel, but I am not sure about Akiton. I know that James Jacobs has stated on the forum that psionics does not really fit in Golarion, but they might fit elsewhere in the system.)
Here's a crazy question...
What about Ghostwalk?
Does WOTC own that or can Sean do a Pathfinder RPG update to it?
As long as the book has a WotC copyright, they have rights to the material. Monte and Sean were paid to produce the material for WotC.
WotC has it's own plans for RavenloftWOTC has been retooling Ravenloft themes and setting pieces for the 4e core D&D cosmology for a while now, as well.
Which is sad, because all they're doing to them is completely butchering them all. Settings like Ravenloft, Planescape, Spelljammer, and Dragonlance need to be licensed to those that actually care about the setting's continuity and mythology. You can expect Dark Sun to get the same rape the Forgotten Realms received this year.
You can expect Dark Sun to get the same rape the Forgotten Realms received this year.
Wrong. They are going back to the basics with Dark Sun. They are using only the original box set as inspuiration.
You can expect Dark Sun to get the same rape the Forgotten Realms received this year.Wrong. They are going back to the basics with Dark Sun. They are using only the original box set as inspuiration.
Yeah I would do a 4e game in Dark Sun, I remember when it first came out. Mow I need to decide whether to let my DDI sub expire
Which is sad, because all they're doing to them is completely butchering them all. Settings like Ravenloft, Planescape, Spelljammer, and Dragonlance need to be licensed to those that actually care about the setting's continuity and mythology. You can expect Dark Sun to get the same rape the Forgotten Realms received this year.WotC has it's own plans for RavenloftWOTC has been retooling Ravenloft themes and setting pieces for the 4e core D&D cosmology for a while now, as well.
Although I don't like what they did with the Spellplague, I have to point out that it is THEIR property and they can do with it whatever they want. If Tolkien had decided that, in Return of the King, he wanted a spaceship to crash into Mt. Doom, he would be allowed to do that. If the Rolling Stones decided they wanted to do an album consisting of nothing but disco music, they can do that. And if George Lucas wants Indiana Jones to investigate extraterrestrials, so be it!*
Are they good ideas based on what the fans want? That's a matter of opinion. Would they still make a boatload of cash for the creator? Yes**
If WotC/Hasbro feels that they can make money from there products in a certain fashion, the only judge of success will not be complaints from fans, but the profit on the product. So, with the release of the Ravenloft board game and the Gamma World RPG (complete with collectible/upgradable power/loot decks) in the coming year, they are obviously not worried about what some of us grognards have to say. And, as much as it pains me to say it, they SHOULDN'T be.
Lucas, for all the bemoaning of the prequels and the canonical miasma of the Clone Wars, now has three different generations that he can sell merchandise to. Point of Fact: How many of you old timers got the Lego: Star Wars Original Trilogy games for your xStationWii's? And still wander through the toy aisle looking for a new rendition of Han Solo? Put that with the generation just hitting their earning years that grew up on the Prequels (just as we grew up on the originals) and the new 'tweeners that are hooked on Cartoon Network's Clone Wars and he's got enough that his kids won't need to worry about much.
And the Stones? Hell, Richards (who will outlive us all) hinted at the possibility of a studio album this year.
*Note, only one of these isn't true.
**Really, Some Girls is a 6x Platinum album that spent 82 WEEKS at #1 in the U.S. and Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is the 25th largest grossing movie of ALL-TIME (beating out Fellowship of the Ring AND Return of the Jedi).
Although I don't like what they did with the Spellplague, I have to point out that it is THEIR property and they can do with it whatever they want. If Tolkien had decided that, in Return of the King, he wanted a spaceship to crash into Mt. Doom, he would be allowed to do that. If the Rolling Stones decided they wanted to do an album consisting of nothing but disco music, they can do that. And if George Lucas wants Indiana Jones to investigate extraterrestrials, so be it!*
Are they good ideas based on what the fans want? That's a matter of opinion. Would they still make a boatload of cash for the creator? Yes**
If WotC/Hasbro feels that they can make money from there products in a certain fashion, the only judge of success will not be complaints from fans, but the profit on the product. So, with the release of the Ravenloft board game and the Gamma World RPG (complete with collectible/upgradable power/loot decks) in the coming year, they are obviously not worried about what some of us grognards have to say. And, as much as it pains me to say it, they SHOULDN'T be.
Lucas, for all the bemoaning of the prequels and the canonical miasma of the Clone Wars, now has three different...
Very well said Matt.
Although I don't like what they did with the Spellplague, I have to point out that it is THEIR property and they can do with it whatever they want. If Tolkien had decided that, in Return of the King, he wanted a spaceship to crash into Mt. Doom, he would be allowed to do that.
True enough. I think the problem is that, rightly or wrongly, many of the long term fans feel that what happened to the Forgotten Realms was more like Steve Jackson deciding to have a spaceship crash into Mt. Doom in the movie version of Return of the King.
True enough. I think the problem is that, rightly or wrongly, many of the long term fans feel that what happened to the Forgotten Realms was more like Steve Jackson deciding to have a spaceship crash into Mt. Doom in the movie version of Return of the King.
I was very upset for quite a while about the changes. But in the end, I realized that the Realms was WOTC's property. It took a while, but I realized that I can't care more about something than the people that own the property.
If Paizo ever does something similar to Golarian, I'll find another world, and likely be a bit less stunned by the event, since I've kind of developed a bit more of a distance between a product line and myself now than I used to have.
Its all business. I was a customer. I'm not any more. Other people are, and its up to WOTC to figure out who they want as customers and how to get/keep them.
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Creative Director
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If Paizo ever does something similar to Golarian, I'll find another world, and likely be a bit less stunned by the event, since I've kind of developed a bit more of a distance between a product line and myself now than I used to have.
Paizo won't be doing anything like that as long as I'm Creative Director. I'm too proud of what we've created with Golarion to blow it up.
Although I don't like what they did with the Spellplague, I have to point out that it is THEIR property and they can do with it whatever they want. If Tolkien had decided that, in Return of the King, he wanted a spaceship to crash into Mt. Doom, he would be allowed to do that.
True enough. I think the problem is that, rightly or wrongly, many of the long term fans feel that what happened to the Forgotten Realms was more like Steve Jackson deciding to have a spaceship crash into Mt. Doom in the movie version of Return of the King.
err Peter Jackson..unless Middle Earth has gone GURPS
The ultimate 'Turtles All The Way Down' is probably Pratchett.And even he has spent time making sure that the mountains are in the right place to bring rains to the correct plains, etc. etc.
Yeah, but that's mainly because one of the big cornerstones (cornerelephants?) of his Discworld is the whole "take fantasy and apply some logic, common sense and today's world to it". He gets a kick out of the sun moving under the Disk, sometimes forcing an elephant to raise a leg to let the sun through. Or letting philosophers ponder the big turtle's gender because of what they call their Big Bang theory, when their turtle meets a similar turtle and they want to make baby worlds.
Although I don't like what they did with the Spellplague, I have to point out that it is THEIR property and they can do with it whatever they want.
Does this actually matter, though? Nobody is arguing that they have invaded a small country and the UN needs to fly to the rescue.
They have fired a lot of fans, and people don't like that, no matter whether they are legally allowed to do that or not.
If Tolkien had decided that, in Return of the King, he wanted a spaceship to crash into Mt. Doom, he would be allowed to do that. If the Rolling Stones decided they wanted to do an album consisting of nothing but disco music, they can do that. And if George Lucas wants Indiana Jones to investigate extraterrestrials, so be it!*
If the fans are royally pissed about it, then they have the right to be pissed about it. Especially if it's something they were involved in for years or even decades.
If the fans are so pissed that they decide never to buy anything from those bastards who butchered their setting, they're absolutely in their right.
Point of Fact: How many of you old timers got the Lego: Star Wars Original Trilogy games for your xStationWii's? And still wander through the toy aisle looking for a new rendition of Han Solo? Put that with the generation just hitting their earning years that grew up on the Prequels (just as we grew up on the originals) and the new 'tweeners that are hooked on Cartoon Network's Clone Wars and he's got enough that his kids won't need to worry about much.
There's one important difference, though: If you have found answers to your Lego Han Solos, find an answer for me for this question: How many old timers are still buying new "proper" Forgotten Realms sourcebooks, never ever mentioning stuff like the spellplague and all the other crap they pulled off?
Don't bother, because I have your answer right here: Zero.
The setting has lost all support. It has become a dead world. Considering that many former FR fans liked the fact that the world lived, moved on all the time and had things happening that weren't decided at their own gaming table (even though the changing part got out of hand at the end there), this is a big hit.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who has turned his back on the realms for good (much to the delight of Paizo, who are getting my RPG money, gaming world money, miniatures money, and soon some of my novel money now. At least a big portion of it, as the hobby has turned out to be less expensive.)
I won't argue about their rights and who owns the setting or whether it has turned out to be profitable (though I do think firing existing, loyal and confirmed customers for a shot at new ones can't be a good idea.)
If Paizo ever does something similar to Golarian, I'll find another world, and likely be a bit less stunned by the event, since I've kind of developed a bit more of a distance between a product line and myself now than I used to have.Paizo won't be doing anything like that as long as I'm Creative Director. I'm too proud of what we've created with Golarion to blow it up.
And that's why we love you guys.
By the way: If you ever find out about a coup being planned, let us know, we'll take care of the guy for you ;-)
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Although I don't like what they did with the Spellplague, I have to point out that it is THEIR property and they can do with it whatever they want. If Tolkien had decided that, in Return of the King, he wanted a spaceship to crash into Mt. Doom, he would be allowed to do that. If the Rolling Stones decided they wanted to do an album consisting of nothing but disco music, they can do that. And if George Lucas wants Indiana Jones to investigate extraterrestrials, so be it!*
One of the many reasons to return copyright terms to the original 7 years.
If the fans are royally pissed about it, then they have the right to be pissed about it. Especially if it's something they were involved in for years or even decades.
If the fans are so pissed that they decide never to buy anything from those bastards who butchered their setting, they're absolutely in their right.
There's one important difference, though: If you have found answers to your Lego Han Solos, find an answer for me for this question: How many old timers are still buying new "proper" Forgotten Realms sourcebooks, never ever mentioning stuff like the spellplague and all the other crap they pulled off?
Don't bother, because I have your answer right here: Zero.
The setting has lost all support. It has become a...
Actually, if you come over to the Candlekeep Forums, you'll find a LOT of pre-Spellplague lore being discussed and generated (including discussions with Ed Greenwood himself on lore).
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One of the mistakes that ultimately led to the failure of TSR was their proliferation of campaign settings—their customers self-identified as a Realms player or a Greyhawk player, or whatever, and would only consider material specifically branded to them.Which Wizards of the Coast settled with the Spellplague...
I would not call the Spellplague a settling of any sort... Paizo can thank WotC for it though, 'cause it made me jump off the Realms after 20 years of loyal Realms patronage (it infuriated me so much that I put all my earthly WotC possessions for sale and I put a lifelong ban on the company)
PS: the Realms was the only thing that kept me coming back to WotC for the last few years... when WotC stopped the Dragon and Dungeon magazines, I was pissed beyond belief; when they Spellplagued, I realize they were actively trying to lose longtime fans of the Realms setting... and I would be insane to keep coming back and ask for more mistreatment.
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If Paizo ever does something similar to Golarian, I'll find another world, and likely be a bit less stunned by the event, since I've kind of developed a bit more of a distance between a product line and myself now than I used to have.Paizo won't be doing anything like that as long as I'm Creative Director. I'm too proud of what we've created with Golarion to blow it up.
Glad to hear that.
The setting has lost all support. It has become a dead world.The same can be said about many other D&D, 3PP, and other developed game setting worlds such as: Mystara, Scarred Lands, Midnight, Ravenloft, Birthright, Planescape, Greyhawk, Glorantha 3rd age, etc ...
Yeah, but contrary to those other ones, which were simply abandoned, WotC took it up for themselves to take a fire axe to the Forgotten Realms, piss off as many old fans as possible and refuse to listen to the massive protests on the forums. All for a shot at getting new costumers.
BTW, did those new costumers come? I couldn't take *another* of my favorite fictional universes going down in flames ( after BattleTech and EU post-ROTJ Star Wars ) and haven't posted on the Realms forums after the release of the new campaign setting. I'm curious what WotCs approach reaped.
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What we don't know is how much revenue was being made by Forgotten Realms during 3.5E, and how much is being made with 4E FR.For example, WotC has not disclosed how much revenue was made from the last dozen or so 3.5E Forgotten Realms splatbooks/modules, nor have they disclosed how much revenue was coming in from the FR novels before the spellplague.
The only possible sure sign of 4E FR being a complete failure (that I can think of offhand), would be if the 4E Forgotten Realms books ended up in huge quantities in the 5 dollar bargain sections at places like Borders, Barnes & Noble, and other bricks & mortar bookstores. (It could be in piles of as many as a ten or twelve books of the same title).
We could use licensing in other media as an example. At the end of second edition and a good while through third edition Forgotten Realms video games were big (Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights) has there even been mention of a 4E video game yet?
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[snip]BTW, did those new costumers come? [snip]
I don't think the costumers a.k.a. custom-made armani suit tailors came according to all the lay offs WotC has been doing in the last year... oh wait... maybe they did come... usually when you fire a few dozen employees one or two fatcat suits usually reap the rewards and grow fatter... ;)
Yeah, but contrary to those other ones, which were simply abandoned, WotC took it up for themselves to take a fire axe to the Forgotten Realms, piss off as many old fans as possible and refuse to listen to the massive protests on the forums. All for a shot at getting new costumers.
Reminds me of what Game Designer's Worshop did to their Traveller setting (The Third Imperium) with their "New Era" (or New Error as many called it) setting. They redid the rules and trashed the setting. The result was a large number of people (including me) quit buying GDW material. GDW tanked because of mistakes like that (among other things). Not that I would wish that on WotC, there are still talented people working there. Maybe Hasbro though :D Of course, if they did go (unlikely 4E seems to be doing well) it wouldn't bother me too much. Paizo produces great material (thank God for the OGL) and I have a home brew campaign anyway...
[snip]BTW, did those new costumers come? [snip]I don't think the costumers a.k.a. custom-made armani suit tailors came according to all the lay offs WotC has been doing in the last year... oh wait... maybe they did come... usually when you fire a few dozen employees one or two fatcat suits usually reap the rewards and grow fatter... ;)
Why, you! :p
Customers, of course. Tsk. My bad. :)
Reminds me of what Game Designer's Worshop did to their Traveller setting (The Third Imperium) with their "New Era" (or New Error as many called it) setting. They redid the rules and trashed the setting. The result was a large number of people (including me) quit buying GDW material. GDW tanked because of mistakes like that (among other things). Not that I would wish that on WotC, there are still talented people working there. Maybe Hasbro though :D Of course, if they did go (unlikely 4E seems to be doing well) it wouldn't bother me too much. Paizo produces great material (thank God for the OGL) and I have a home brew campaign anyway...
Since no amount of criticism of the then existing fanbase could persuade the writers to change the destruction of the Realms, I am not nearly as emphatetic to their possible plight as you are. They made their bed, now they can sleep in it.
The old fans of the FR will not come back for them.
Since no amount of criticism of the then existing fanbase could persuade the writers to change the destruction of the Realms, I am not nearly as emphatetic to their possible plight as you are. They made their bed, now they can sleep in it.
The old fans of the FR will not come back for them.
Doesn't surprise me. I never looked back to GDW either. In this case I suspect the decision to torch the Realms came from further up the food chain. I think at that level they felt it was necessary to either push people on to their newer 4E friendly settings or explain the massive changes to the rules with massive changes to the setting. Typical...
Doesn't surprise me. I never looked back to GDW either. In this case I suspect the decision to torch the Realms came from further up the food chain. I think at that level they felt it was necessary to either push people on to their newer 4E friendly settings or explain the massive changes to the rules with massive changes to the setting. Typical...
Yeah, pretty much.
I still want to see one day actual numbers of how the fanbases evolved due to that decision, but I guess any internal polling will be kept in a locked drawer forever. ^^
Yeah, they totally published that book just to chase everyone away from FR. Or maybe that's a mind-control-rays-from-the-dark-side-of-Venus conspiracy theory.
So, your countertheory is "They just didn't notice that just about everyone of the old guard was totally against taking a wrecking ball to the Realms and was threatening to leave"?
The wrecking of the old setting was premeditated, there were tons of signals from the existing fanbase that they did not want it. Hell, for *Eberron* a change was reverted after massive fan protest. Didn't happen for the Realms, though.
So all of the old-timers hate new FR, and nobody else cares. Then, with the new publishing strategy of not splitting setting books into a sub-franchise of D&D as a whole, you don't see a new influx of people coming in to say, "Yeah, new FR is awesome!" the way you did with previous editions. So the old guard is noisily annoyed and new books aren't coming along, so nobody goes to check out the now years-old 4e FR core books to see if the changes were actually good or not.
Yeah, sounds like a sound publishing strategy. Chase away your old audience, pray that a new audience will turn up and never look back. <facepalm>
Except...even if 4e FR were rocketskate Jesus, it'd still be two books of limited relevance and the old-guard would be noisily annoyed and dominating the narrative, since WOTC isn't developing the setting beyond those books so there's no new fans to come to the defense.
Okay, I get the sense that you don't think that was such a hot idea by WotC, too, but why then slag people who voice their rancour over what happened as tin-foil hat conspirators? It was pretty obvious to everyone at the time that the announced changes were widely hated by the fanbase, so you can't tell me that still going ahead with them was not premeditated by WotC.