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If you like I'd be more than happy to provide that proof, but this board is not the appropriate venue (don't want to be accused of thread jacking). But if you like I can send you my email address and we can correspond. I'd be more than honored.
As to your sharing those "benefits," please share with me one shred of proof and i'll be more than happy to listen to you....
I am not saying that I do have proof. Just as there is no way for the concept of god to be proven, there is no way for it to be DISproven. My personal belief is that given what little evidence there is, it is not logical to beleive in a god.
I am also inclined to say that if there was proof of a god, i would not be inclined to follow a deity that has committed the atrocities that are ascribed to the judeo-christian god.
- Del Griffith
Originally posted over in the Quotes thread.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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So you are not disputing the fact that your holy book calls for the murder of homosexuals, yet try to demonize me as a book burning crazy?There are references to god on our currency, etc. but that is a far cry from teaching religion in schools as right-wing evangelists would have it.
(raises hand)
Actually, yes, I'd like to dispute that, my friend.Biblical references to homosexuality are very few and far between. The prohibition against "a man lying with a man as with a woman" in Leviticus is strung in and among other abominations, some of which we recognize as applicable to the Israelite people of the time --wearing blended fabrics, eating shellfish, beard trimming-- and some of which we still hold to as moral laws --such as prohibitions against incest and bestiality.
I've talked to people who follow one evangelical, fundamentalist movement or another, and I ask them about how such a list can be understood without trying to impose an interpretation, without reason informing faith. I have yet to hear an answer that satisfies me.
In any case, it would be unfair to say that the Bible, as currently understood and practiced by the vast majority of Jews or Christians, advocates the murder of shrimp-eaters, or beard-trimmers, or gays, or witches. Or Amelikites. There are lunatics who use the Bible as a weapon, as justification for hatred, but that's inconsistent with the central message of prophet after prophet, or of every teaching we have from Christ.
Meanwhile, Biblical injunctions against drunkeness are all over Holy Scripture. Say what you will about the 19th Century Temperance movement, but it was a lot more consistent with Biblical guidance than the anti-gay screeds of today.
And, honestly, it's always easier to point to a temptation that we are not ourself subject to, and paint all people who struggle against it as degenerates who are clearly Worse Than Us. And, boy howdy, do the Gospels have something to say about that.
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Actually, yes, I'd like to dispute that, my friend.
Biblical references to homosexuality are very few and far between. The prohibition against "a man lying with a man as with a woman" in Leviticus is strung in and among other abominations, some of which we recognize as applicable to the Israelite people of the time --wearing blended fabrics, eating shellfish, beard trimming-- and some of which we still hold to as moral laws --such as prohibitions against incest and bestiality.
I know...that was a bit of a low blow, but it goes to show how most of the bigots cherry pick what they want from the bible to justify their hatred. Sure, they wear poly-cotton blend tee-shirts while eating bacon-wrapped shrimp cocktail...but mention a gay and that line of leviticus comes out quicker than a "bless you" during allergy season.
Civil Religious Discussion Thread is in OTD.
Thanks for your compliance. ;)
For the attention of "Xpltvdeleted" LINK
Thanks for the throwback. I not only had a good chuckle, but added it to my Netflix so I can show it to my kids and their gamer friends (Yes I spread the disease to another generation =). A definite must see for any gamer (forewarned is forearmed =).What movie was this?Mazes and Monsters
It truly is a must-see.
Back when IMDB.com was a new site, I did posted the summary for that film. Most gamers deplore the film, but I really get a kick out of it when it first aired. Back then there was so little RPG stuff referenced on TV. Even though it was a BS cautionary tale based on a bogus criminal case, it had the opposite effect. I fantasized about LARPing s#$t out in dangerous cave systems. ;)
The summaries I did that year all say Rone Barton Lokarr because I thought I'd change my name to Rone Lokarr just for kicks, until I learned that a lokarr was an old norse wood planing tool or some such. Where's the glamor in that?
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Thanks for the throwback. I not only had a good chuckle, but added it to my Netflix so I can show it to my kids and their gamer friends (Yes I spread the disease to another generation =). A definite must see for any gamer (forewarned is forearmed =).What movie was this?Mazes and Monsters
It truly is a must-see.
Back when IMDB.com was a new site, I did posted the summary for that film. Most gamers deplore the film, but I really get a kick out of it when it first aired. Back then there was so little RPG stuff referenced on TV. Even though it was a BS cautionary tale based on a bogus criminal case, it had the opposite effect. I fantasized about LARPing s#$t out in dangerous cave systems. ;)
The summaries I did that year all say Rone Barton Lokarr because I thought I'd change my name to Rone Lokarr just for kicks, until I learned that a lokarr was an old norse wood planing tool or some such. Where's the glamor in that?
It's a good thing you stuck with Barton. That's the Norse god of virility and male sexual prowess. I learned all about it here.
It's a good thing you stuck with Barton. That's the Norse god of virility and male sexual prowess. I learned all about it here.Thanks for the throwback. I not only had a good chuckle, but added it to my Netflix so I can show it to my kids and their gamer friends (Yes I spread the disease to another generation =). A definite must see for any gamer (forewarned is forearmed =).What movie was this?Mazes and Monsters
It truly is a must-see.
Back when IMDB.com was a new site, I did posted the summary for that film. Most gamers deplore the film, but I really get a kick out of it when it first aired. Back then there was so little RPG stuff referenced on TV. Even though it was a BS cautionary tale based on a bogus criminal case, it had the opposite effect. I fantasized about LARPing s#$t out in dangerous cave systems. ;)
The summaries I did that year all say Rone Barton Lokarr because I thought I'd change my name to Rone Lokarr just for kicks, until I learned that a lokarr was an old norse wood planing tool or some such. Where's the glamor in that?
Was that a new kind of Rick-roll? I suddenly feel so... so BROADWAY! (As if I didn't always feel Broadway.)
In the eighties Dnd was assailed as the gateway game that would lead us all to devil worshiping. For those of us who were unlucky, we not only played the game, but also happened to listen to the second threat to our souls, Ozzy Osbourne. The rarer few like myself, who listened to even worse bands like Slayer, were considered damned beyond all hope.
I know it sound like a joke now, but for the fervent of the time, it was a full time business. Those of us who were identified as RPG'ers and listeners of such foul music were really unfortunate because we were constantly assailed by people wanting to save us. We did our best to avoid them, but in the end we had to endure endless lectures denouncing our deeds and pressing us to help them find their savior.
So I was just pondering with a smile... Now that I play pathfinder am I redeemed? Is part of my soul cleansed now that I do not play Dnd?
Now that I'm thinking about it, do any of you feel any holier now that you play pathfinder? How many of you managed to play Dnd and not fall victim to Satan? Or, maybe, just maybe, is this some grand devils conspiracy meant to rope in another generation of youth?
Hmmm… I think I will have to go consult some goat entrails and my Ouija board to find out =)…
Sure, just like White Wolf defused all those wackos with regard to its players, right?
** spoiler omitted **Was that a new kind of Rick-roll? I suddenly feel so... so BROADWAY! (As if I didn't always feel Broadway.)
Well expect to be Rumtumtuggered yourself one of these days, Boy-o.
I used to brand people as evil, but some of my more screamy victims seemed to all agree upon a single worthy point which was that me poking flesh with red hot branding irons was in itself a less than noble act. So these days I've softened my approach and merely tie a string around evildoers' fingers to remind them of their badness. Not only are there no more tears, I even get invited over sometimes.
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Civil Religious Discussion Thread is in OTD.
Thanks for your compliance. ;)
You do understand that showing them where to discuss the topic won't work right?
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You do understand that showing them where to discuss the topic won't work right?Civil Religious Discussion Thread is in OTD.
Thanks for your compliance. ;)
It's worth a shot.
(raises hand)
Actually, yes, I'd like to dispute that, my friend.Biblical references to homosexuality are very few and far between. The prohibition against "a man lying with a man as with a woman" in Leviticus is strung in and among other abominations, some of which we recognize as applicable to the Israelite people of the time --wearing blended fabrics, eating shellfish, beard trimming-- and some of which we still hold to as moral laws --such as prohibitions against incest and bestiality.
I've talked to people who follow one evangelical, fundamentalist movement or another, and I ask them about how such a list can be understood without trying to impose an interpretation, without reason informing faith. I have yet to hear an answer that satisfies me.
In any case, it would be unfair to say that the Bible, as currently understood and practiced by the vast majority of Jews or Christians, advocates the murder of shrimp-eaters, or beard-trimmers, or gays, or witches. Or Amelikites. There are lunatics who use the Bible as a weapon, as justification for hatred, but that's inconsistent with the central message of prophet after prophet, or of every teaching we have from Christ.
Meanwhile, Biblical injunctions against drunkeness are all over Holy Scripture. Say what you will about the 19th Century Temperance movement, but it was a lot more consistent with Biblical guidance than the anti-gay screeds of today.
And, honestly, it's always easier to point to a temptation that we are not ourself subject to, and paint all people who struggle against it as degenerates who are clearly Worse Than Us. And, boy howdy, do the Gospels have something to say about...
Chris, your response was awesome. Thank you very much for that. The only other thing I'd like to add is that people always forget the pop-psyche "behavioral experts" that also demonized D&D during this time period, without ever citing any religious basis for their claims.
From time to time you still hear comments on Tru TV on various crime reality shows that a suspect playing D&D is an indication of some kind of mental disorder.
Couple of points.
First off, I'm an evangelical. The whole point of a group called "evangelicals" is that they believe in, well, evangelizing. Saying that Christians shouldn't share their faith, or (worse) that they should accept other faiths as equally legitimate, is basically telling them that they should ignore fundemental tenets of their faith! It would be like me saying, "Sure, you can be a Bhuddist, just drop that whole enlightenment thing."
Do I think homosexuality is a sin? Sure... but then I also think any kind of sex outside of holy matrimony is a sin. As is stealing. And lying. And practicing faiths other than Christianity. Amazingly, I have friends who do all of these things. In fact, of everyone in my gaming group, the gay pagan gets along with me best because I give him the least crap. I don't hide my views - I just don't beat people over the head with them, and practice a philosophy of "love the sinner, hate the sin."
Further, I support legalizing gay marriage. I don't believe in divorce except in cases of adultery, and I don't believe in divorcees remarrying, but that's legal. I don't think God is going to change his stance on things because some humans passed some laws. In the meantime, those laws give certain legal benefits to married couples, and so it does discriminate to disallow people to marry. It's separation of church and state. (Ideally, the concept of marriage itself should not exist as a legal format in my book. Even straight people, or any group of people, should have civil unions, which have nothing to do with romance and act more like personal mini-corporations. But I'm not a policymaker, and it would be hard to overturn centuries of law on marriage just to divorce, if you'll pardon the pun, religious implications from legal ones.)
I do believe in evolution. I opposed it for a while for the scientific flaws it held (many atheists hold views on it as strongly as religious people do, and the science aspect of it has been hurt as a result) bt I never saw it as contradicting the Bible. (Okay, for a little while, but then I actually studied it.) I think it is funny how many people think science and religion are disharmonious when so much discovery has been done by religious people who find the grandeur of the Creator in the creation.
Finally, to the topic originally! I used to be one of those who refused to play RPGs because of the influences in them. Spellcasting, and false gods! Part of it was the fact that, unlike other games, the objective of an RPG was to get in character, to pretend that you were that person for a while. Playing computer games like the old goldbox series, or Baldur's Gate, were fine because of the level of separation, but not tabletop! Eventually I matured, and am better able to handle the balance between fiction and reality, the idea of suspension of disbelief. There are still some areas I won't go into - playing a cleric, the GM once wanted me to RP actually praying to the deity. Made me really uncomfortable, and I refused. I also refuse to play Demon: the Fallen, and get uncomfortable with most other World of Darkness games - I prefer to play mortals.
I was constantly disappointed that none of the people I played with ever went up to the top of a tall building and tried to fly off of it. I mean, what was Tom Hanks doing that the rest of us were missing out on?I am still constantly disappointed that several of the players I've played with haven't done this. I can name a few I wish would.
awww, are we so bad? I tried to get lost in Carlsbad caverns for you, but those park rangers were everywhere! Damn rangers.
In the eighties Dnd was assailed as the gateway game that would lead us all to devil worshiping. For those of us who were unlucky, we not only played the game, but also happened to listen to the second threat to our souls, Ozzy Osbourne. The rarer few like myself, who listened to even worse bands like Slayer, were considered damned beyond all hope.
... Now that I play pathfinder am I redeemed? Is part of my soul cleansed now that I do not play Dnd?
Now that I'm thinking about it, do any of you feel any holier now that you play pathfinder?
I'm really disappointed no one answered your important questions head-on, Decrepit. I will redress that failure now.
Yes, I feel holier. Yes, Pathfinder has redeemed a part of your soul. I would have thought with more intelligent, sensitive-to-hidden-meanings people on these boards, it would be common knowledge that "Pathfinder" is meant to help you "find the Path," which they have obviously accomplished. Now, if we could only figure out how to redeem that part of your soul that is bound up with musical tastes, we'd be almost there...
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Well it looks like I created a beast. It was intended as a wee bit of a tongue in cheek throwback that spiraled into well, the same old same old =).
Welcome to America folks =)...
Religion plays no part in my life, even though I have more than a boatload of faith and strive to lead a good life. At my table, both at home and the public tables I run, I have seen the gambit of humanity and gamed with them all. You can believe in whatever you like as long as you sit, possibly bring a snack, and are willing to have fun.
Currently my home table is broken down into half Heathen, half Mormon and we have an interested Hindu looking to join the table. We honestly care little about each others beliefs and are friendly enough to ask questions and rib each other occasionally.
To me this is a microcosm of how I feel life should be. Unfortunately it seems to be in the minority at the moment because everyone’s business seems to be everyone else’s problem =(
Whew... Thanks for the clarification, and very helpful reasoning Mairkurion. I feel better already =)
I'm really disappointed no one answered your important questions head-on, Decrepit. I will redress that failure now.
Yes, I feel holier. Yes, Pathfinder has redeemed a part of your soul. I would have thought with more intelligent, sensitive-to-hidden-meanings people on these boards, it would be common knowledge that "Pathfinder" is meant to help you "find the Path," which they have obviously accomplished. Now, if we could only figure out how to redeem that part of your soul that is bound up with musical tastes, we'd be almost there...
Bah! A pox on your kind. His musical tastes are quite fine, thank you. Perhaps you should come over to the dark side, mein frond.
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I was constantly disappointed that none of the people I played with ever went up to the top of a tall building and tried to fly off of it.I am still constantly disappointed that several of the players I've played with haven't done this. I can name a few I wish would.
I did, once. I just concentrated REALLY hard on Jesus and Obi-Wan Kenobi at the same time. I was undamaged aside from a slight case of rickets.
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Well it looks like I created a beast. It was intended as a wee bit of a tongue in cheek throwback that spiraled into well, the same old same old =).
Don't worry, you could start talking about cheese fries and it will delve into a political/religion/4e vs. Pathfinder debate around here.
Mmmmmmm......cheese fries
Don't worry, you could start talking about cheese fries and it will delve into a political/religion/4e vs. Pathfinder debate around here.
Mmmmmmm......cheese fries
You and your filthy cheese fries . . . do you realize the horrible example you are setting for poor children that will accidentally explode from cholesterol intake?
I almost hesitate to ask, but do you at least put ranch on them? ;)
Ranch instead of gravy? Barf.
Well it looks like I created a beast. It was intended as a wee bit of a tongue in cheek throwback that spiraled into well, the same old same old =).Don't worry, you could start talking about cheese fries and it will delve into a political/religion/4e vs. Pathfinder debate around here.
Mmmmmmm......cheese fries
I created a cheese fries monster template once, but the CR of -6 made it anything but play worthy.
I'll take my fries as poutine! Mmmmmm....
Hey, was that in that Calazone golem adventure?
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Don't worry, you could start talking about cheese fries and it will delve into a political/religion/4e vs. Pathfinder debate around here.
Mmmmmmm......cheese fries
You and your filthy cheese fries . . . do you realize the horrible example you are setting for poor children that will accidentally explode from cholesterol intake?
I almost hesitate to ask, but do you at least put ranch on them? ;)
No....I eat them with sour cream and jalapenos on top!!!
Well....I did....damn diet....
Hey, was that in that Calazone golem adventure?
Yes, and my players ate it up.
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I hear you Thrall. The whole origin of gay, if they are really people, and should they have equal rights, seems to be the controversial topic now days. Fortunately you can vote, do not have to sit at the back of the bus, and soon, risk your life for your country openly, now if we can just work the rest of it out =).
As for Urizen... Nothing can cure my music problem unfortunately =(... The good news is Rammstein is planning a North American tour this fall. Should be quite yummy and definitely safe for my soul =).
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I hear you Thrall. The whole origin of gay, if they are really people, and should they have equal rights, seems to be the controversial topic now days. Fortunately you can vote, do not have to sit at the back of the bus, and soon, risk your life for your country openly, now if we can just work the rest of it out =).
As for Urizen... Nothing can cure my music problem unfortunately =(... The good news is Rammstein is planning a North American tour this fall. Should be quite yummy and definitely safe for my soul =).
Hey, was that in that Calazone golem adventure?Yes, and my players ate it up.
It didn't kill them with its hot cheese (fire) damage when it exploded?