I like "what if" scenarios, I was thinking about this for a while as a lot of people have polarised opinions of General Douglas MacArthur.
What would the outcome of the Pacific war be like if MacArthur was killed before he could escape from the Philippines. We could take this further to the occupation of Japan and the Korean war.
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I like "what if" scenarios, I was thinking about this for a while as a lot of people have polarised opinions of General Douglas MacArthur.
What would the outcome of the Pacific war be like if MacArthur was killed before he could escape from the Philippines. We could take this further to the occupation of Japan and the Korean war.
15 years ago I could pose you an alternate...If I recall, there was considerable opposition from a Rival milliary Commander and he really alienated the Brass by demanding things direct from the President.
Nice scenario,
My favorite to think about involves the louisiana purchase.
Can you imagine what would have happened if the US had listened to the liberals of the time and not bought it.
Napolean would have had a place to fall back to forceing britan to have to bring there war over here. It would have dramatically changed the way the U.S. is today.
Or what if mexico had decided to take hitler up on his offer to get texas back and tried to invade the U.S. while we were fighting in eurpoe.
I like history and the possible alternate histories are a fun game to me.
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Nice scenario,
My favorite to think about involves the louisiana purchase.
Can you imagine what would have happened if the US had listened to the liberals of the time and not bought it.
Napolean would have had a place to fall back to forceing britan to have to bring there war over here. It would have dramatically changed the way the U.S. is today.
Or what if mexico had decided to take hitler up on his offer to get texas back and tried to invade the U.S. while we were fighting in eurpoe.I like history and the possible alternate histories are a fun game to me.
Umm... Jefferson (by far, the biggest liberal of the time) was President at the time of the purchase and had doubts about the constitutionality of purchasing the land, but did so to prevent the French from establishing such a huge presence on the continent. The main opponents were the Federalists party, headed by Alexander Hamilton, and who were largely bankers and businessmen and sought to more closely tie ourselves with the British.
And, war with Britain happened anyway in 1812 when we fought back over Britain's impressment of US citizens into the Royal Navy and strict trade restrictions to prevent us from trading with Napoleonic France during the UK's war with France at the time.
Anyways, I think it's even more interesting to think if we kept the original module of election for the Presidency where the Vice-President was the guy that got the 2nd highest amount of votes, instead of what we currently have with party's putting forth their "combo" candidates.
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Anyways, I think it's even more interesting to think if we kept the original module of election for the Presidency where the Vice-President was the guy that got the 2nd highest amount of votes, instead of what we currently have with party's putting forth their "combo" candidates.
Especially considering the VP's ability to cast the tie-breaking vote in the Senate.
Also, one would have to wonder if there would have been more presidential assassination attempts.
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I also like alternate history and quite frankly you can extend it far beyond the typical. For instance, what would the world have been like if, say, the Scandinavians had launched their westward explorations that eventually reached North America (Newfoundland and Baffin Island) earlier and with sufficient people to set up a thriving colony that survived changes to the climate. Or what would the world look like if Genghis Khan had been routed in northern China and turned his attention westward much earlier? Or the English had during the wars with France managed to solidly unify England and France under one monarch, a single empire? Or the Olive Branch petition made it to George the 3rd and he agreed to it? Well the list of "What ifs..." can get VERY, VERY long indeed, but still fun to think about.
Here is one I've always liked, what if the Romans had invented trains? After all they had access to steam engines and were smart enough to have expanded on the steam engine, if only someone had taken it seriously back then.
My two favorite things to ponder
1) I always wondered what the world would have looked like if Rome had not fallen in 476 A.D.. Would modern democracy have developed despite a tyrannical Rome? What would our technological level be without having five centuries of a Dark Age?
2) What if Napoleon had beaten Wellington at Waterloo? Would Napoleon have conquered all of Europe and marched on Russia again(during warmer weather of course) or was he destined to have his "Waterloo" somewhere else?
WHAT IF: America has lost the >Battle of the Bulge< ?
ALTERNATE OUTCOME: Germany would have had time to complete the construction of their nuclear bomb. This bomb would have been used on European soil. Today, Germany would control all of Western Europe, and Japan would dominate all of China as a result.
. . . . . . . . . . . . ( map )
What would have happened if ancient and medieval mesoamerican cultures had developed gunpowder and advanced seafaring technology before the Europeans and had set sail to the east instead of the other way around?
I thought about that one too CH but they lacked an intergal part to advance there technology.
*Drum roll please*
The Horse.
Thats right folks the gift of the Goddess Epona helped advance western civilization because the native peoples of North America didn't have beasts of burden equal to them.
Think of how important the humble horse has been to all advanced civilizations.
I am a definate horse lover(not a lover of horses thank you) and could extole their virtues for hours but think on this. Why is everything today measured in horse power.
My THEORY behind the retarded development of the mesoamerican society was they lacked the horse unlike their eurpoean counter parts.
WHAT IF: Soviet Forces failed to push the German 6th Army out of Stalingrad in 1943?
ALTERNATE OUTCOME: Germany would not have had to withdraw from the oil-rich Caucasus region. As a result, a swelling in the number of German tanks and motor vehicles take to the field. German operations become much more robust fueled by all the oil, giving Hitler all the time needed to complete development of a nuclear weapon.
WHAT IF: Soviet Forces failed to push the German 6th Army out of Stalingrad in 1943?
ALTERNATE OUTCOME: Germany would not have had to withdraw from the oil-rich Caucasus region. As a result, a swelling in the number of German tanks and motor vehicles take to the field. German operations become much more robust fueled by all the oil, giving Hitler all the time needed to complete the development of a nuclear weapon.
I can see this but nothing can make up for poor planning. Hitler wasted too many of his tanks and forces in africa simply as a land grab. Theres no reason to believe that even if he had taken russia that he would have changed policy.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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What would have happened if ancient and medieval mesoamerican cultures had developed gunpowder and advanced seafaring technology before the Europeans and had set sail to the east instead of the other way around?I thought about that one too CH but they lacked an intergal part to advance there technology.
Guns, Germs, and Steel provides a lot of information in regards to that question. It's not just the lack of horses that was problematic, but also of other large herd animals which are breeding grounds for the diseases that gave Europeans an advantage. Another factor mentioned in the book is that the Americas are spread out on a north-south axis instead of an east-west axis. This makes it more difficult for food crops to be exported to new regions. Plus, the Americas lacked the diversity of staple grains found in Eurasia.
Very good book, and highly recommended. It has another section relevant to this thread about how China's rivers makes it easier for a large centrally controlled government to arise. As a result of this, a single mistake by a bad leader can (and did) result in China losing the opportunity to colonize the rest of the planet. At one point, there was a Chinese fleet that made the journey around the southern cape of Africa during the European Dark Ages, but for whatever reason the imperial powers in China decided against further exploration. China also had access to gunpowder technology far earlier than Europe, but did not develop it into weapons for similar reasons. In Europe, the geography favors smaller nation-states, which are in a state of competition. If one failed to pursue a particular technology or path, another would step in to do so.
WHAT IF: America has lost the >Battle of the Bulge< ?
ALTERNATE OUTCOME: Germany would have had time to complete the construction of their nuclear bomb. This bomb would have been used on European soil. Today, Germany would control all of Western Europe, and Japan would dominate all of China as a result.
. . . . . . . . . . . . ( map )
More directly, I would not have been born as my grandfather would not have survived the battle. Intersting chain of possible outcomes from that one idea.
I can see this but nothing can make up for poor planning. Hitler wasted too many of his tanks and forces in africa simply as a land grab. Theres no reason to believe that even if he had taken russia that he would have changed policy.WHAT IF: Soviet Forces failed to push the German 6th Army out of Stalingrad in 1943?
ALTERNATE OUTCOME: Germany would not have had to withdraw from the oil-rich Caucasus region. As a result, a swelling in the number of German tanks and motor vehicles take to the field. German operations become much more robust fueled by all the oil, giving Hitler all the time needed to complete the development of a nuclear weapon.
I learned about this playing Axis & Allies . LOL
I like "what if" scenarios, I was thinking about this for a while as a lot of people have polarised opinions of General Douglas MacArthur.
What would the outcome of the Pacific war be like if MacArthur was killed before he could escape from the Philippines. We could take this further to the occupation of Japan and the Korean war.
I was thinking Nimitz would have been made over all commander of the Pacific and the long term strategy would be to isolate and starve the Japanese.
I can see this but nothing can make up for poor planning. Hitler wasted too many of his tanks and forces in africa simply as a land grab. Theres no reason to believe that even if he had taken russia that he would have changed policy.
It was less of a land grab and more bolstering their Italian allies. The Italian army had collapsed and were being forced out of North Africa. With an Italian defeat in North Africa it opens all of Southern Europe to invasion.
In the least Germans needed to tie up the Allies in North Africa while they secured their objectives in Eastern Europe. They could then redirect their resources when the East was taken.
The best outcome of Axis could hope for in North Africa was to cut off Allied access to the Suez canal. This would stop oil, rubber, food and troops coming in from Allied colonial possessions Asia and Oceania.
WHAT IF: Darius, the Persian King, did not wimp out and flee the >Gaugamela< battle field in 331 B.C.?
ALTERNATE OUTCOME: Darius then commands his personal guard to hold. Who then slow down Alexander the Great's masterful charge into the gap appearing in the main Persian battle line. Emboldened by this action, and his King's stand-and-fight attitude, Bessus is able to turn his cavalry and hit Alexander's unit in the flank. Surrounded, Alexander is eventually killed.
Therefore, the Persian Empire never falls. Christianity never blooms; the Pope and his cool glass-car never exist. Also, having a 1,000+ year head start on science & math Iran develops a nuclear weapon in the mid-1500’s. America never comes into existence, and Canada is given a funny Persian name -- something like Hor-hor-hurulg-murg.
. . . (map)
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What would have happened if ancient and medieval mesoamerican cultures had developed gunpowder and advanced seafaring technology before the Europeans and had set sail to the east instead of the other way around?I thought about that one too CH but they lacked an intergal part to advance there technology.
Guns, Germs, and Steel provides a lot of information in regards to that question. It's not just the lack of horses that was problematic, but also of other large herd animals which are breeding grounds for the diseases that gave Europeans an advantage. Another factor mentioned in the book is that the Americas are spread out on a north-south axis instead of an east-west axis. This makes it more difficult for food crops to be exported to new regions. Plus, the Americas lacked the diversity of staple grains found in Eurasia.
Very good book, and highly recommended. It has another section relevant to this thread about how China's rivers makes it easier for a large centrally controlled government to arise. As a result of this, a single mistake by a bad leader can (and did) result in China losing the opportunity to colonize the rest of the planet. At one point, there was a Chinese fleet that made the journey around the southern cape of Africa during the European Dark Ages, but for whatever reason the imperial powers in China decided against further exploration. China also had access to gunpowder technology far earlier than Europe, but did not develop it into weapons for similar reasons. In Europe, the geography favors smaller nation-states, which are in a state of competition. If one failed to pursue a particular technology or path, another would step in to do so.
Agreed about the quality of that book. Although, the disease argument wouldn't really apply to the retarded development - just the results post contact with the Europeans. I think the North South orientation plays a much bigger role in slowing their development than lack of herd animals.
As a historian I caution against putting too much weight behind Jared's theories. Jared developed a nice theory and looks for proof for his ideas, but doesn't really attempt to disprove his theory or test it in a scientific fashion. In those circumstances there is a danger of getting too caught up in admiration of your own ideas to see the glaring flaw hiding in the details.
there are a number of other factors (lack of widespread literacy, lack of sustainable agriculture and thus cycles of collapse, lack of access to trade and literature from a large part of the world) which may have played a very large role in the slow advancement rate in the Americas. To tell the truth, the slash & burn agriculture famine cycle was always the most compelling explanation to me. Still, good stuff here.
What if Spider-Man never gained the Captain Universe powers?
Surely you jest.
What if the Ramesses II had granted freedom and equal religious protection to the Israelites so that they never left Egypt and indeed joined forces with the Egyptians to help expand the New Kingdom? That could have an impact on world history.
What do you think the impact would be?
p.s. I think each poster should at least post a few ideas of his own to get the ball rolling.
I was thinking Nimitz would have been made over all commander of the Pacific and the long term strategy would be to isolate and starve the Japanese.
That's more or less what happened anyway. By the end of the war the US had sunk virtually the entire Japanese merchant fleet. The Home Islands, like the UK, were not able to feed themselves. They weren't going to make it through the winter.
Some ideas of my own.
FDR desperately wanted to help the UK out in WWII. But Pearl Harbor only resulted in a declaration against Japan, since the Germans and Italians were not involved. By the terms of their alliance, neither was obligated to join Japan in its war against the US. (And Japan was not obligated to join Germany and Italy's war on the USSR.) So what if Hitler hadn't decided it would be a great idea to join on Japan's side against the US?
My guess is that eventually the US would have ended up in the European war anyway, but it would have taken a while longer. FDR wanted it and we were already practically throwing munitions at the UK for kisses and promises. But the absence of a declaration on the part of the European Axis probably would have pushed things back until a few American ships got torpedoed, like in WWI.
Or another What if Abraham Lincoln hadn't picked Johnson as his VP?
Johnson was a Unionist mostly in the sense that he had personal grievances against the slaveholding aristocracy and he took every chance to humiliate them after the war, but he was just as devoted a foe of any effort to bring the freedmen up to the level of white citizens and more or less constantly vetoed anything the Congress sent him that might accomplish something that way. For a while every bill that passed was with an overridden veto. This eventually led to the Congress impeaching him, but by the time things came to a head the election was quite close anyway and thus it didn't seem so urgent to get rid of him as it would have been in, say, 1866.
I figure the success of the Radical program would have prompted the same amount of terrorist violence as anything else did, give or take. But if it stuck we might have had a lot better race relations thereafter instead of a positive trend that peaked early and then receded for decades, not really turning around again until the 40s and 50s.
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What if Jimi Hendrix hadn't died at age 27. What ongoing influence would he have had on music?
I suspect that Jimi would have ended up looking like a cross between Keith Richards and Don King. He would still have respect for his early career genius, but would be the butt of many jokes (like Elvis in his fat, drugged-out Vegas years).
What if Mary Tudor and Phillip II of Spain had produced children or if Elizabeth had accepted Phillips proposal after her sisters death and children had resulted from that union
A unified Spanish/English Empire with France sidelined and a Hapsburg Dominance of Europe almost gauranteed.
The end of the Reformation
A world spanning Catholic Empire controlling all off the Americas by the mid 1700's.
more to come later
What if the Ramesses II had granted freedom and equal religious protection to the Israelites so that they never left Egypt and indeed joined forces with the Egyptians to help expand the New Kingdom? That could have an impact on world history.What do you think the impact would be?
p.s. I think each poster should at least post a few ideas of his own to get the ball rolling.
Alright Tensor. Partially it will depend on EXACTLY when the Exodus occurred but given that it occurred before or around the time of the invasion of the "Sea Peoples" it could have allowed Egypt to maintain holdings in Canaan more effectively and possibly even allowed Egypt to expand its Kingdom as well as holding off other attacks by the Philistines and other invaders, but a great deal would depend on the behaviour of all involved parties. The Israelites/Hebrews were effective warriors historically, King David being particularly capable and ruthless, but would that same character have developed within Egyptian society-it is hard to assess. In all likelihood it would have helped The New Kingdom remain intact for longer than it did, but it could have also provoked a backlash if it were implemented clumsily and possibly led to greater instability in Egypt, possibly even civil war if the political situation became volatile enough. With alternate history you pluck one string from the tapestry, it will rearrange every contemporary string and all others following from it. It is a good idea to propose possible outcomes but it could be very complex.
I can see this but nothing can make up for poor planning. Hitler wasted too many of his tanks and forces in africa simply as a land grab. Theres no reason to believe that even if he had taken russia that he would have changed policy.WHAT IF: Soviet Forces failed to push the German 6th Army out of Stalingrad in 1943?
ALTERNATE OUTCOME: Germany would not have had to withdraw from the oil-rich Caucasus region. As a result, a swelling in the number of German tanks and motor vehicles take to the field. German operations become much more robust fueled by all the oil, giving Hitler all the time needed to complete the development of a nuclear weapon.
You made my point. Victory was in Nazi hands many times, but time and again ineptitude saved the day for us.
(maybe time travels came back in time and caused changes to help save the world.)
WHAT IF: Darius, the Persian King, did not wimp out and flee the >Gaugamela< battle field in 331 B.C.?
ALTERNATE OUTCOME: Darius then commands his personal guard to hold. Who then slow down Alexander the Great's masterful charge into the gap appearing in the main Persian battle line. Emboldened by this action, and his King's stand-and-fight attitude, Bessus is able to turn his cavalry and hit Alexander's unit in the flank. Surrounded, Alexander is eventually killed.
Therefore, the Persian Empire never falls. Christianity never blooms; the Pope and his cool glass-car never exist. Also, having a 1,000+ year head start on science & math Iran develops a nuclear weapon in the mid-1500’s. America never comes into existence, and Canada is given a funny Persian name -- something like Hor-hor-hurulg-murg.
. . . (map)
This is my favorite one so far.
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WWII the US Army desperate for men in the Pacific theater decide not to discharge homosexual men and instead send them to the most demanding areas and front line combat they can.
In later days the make up, reputation and personality of San Francisco is seen as a much more wholesome city.
Don't ask Don't tell is never invented.
What if Britain had concluded a peace treaty with Napoleon?
The British would stay out of the continental war in Europe, without being involved the Royal Navy wouldn't start press ganging American merchant sailors into service and thus some of the tensions involved with the War of 1812 would be diminished (war might still have happened, but it probably would have been later if it did). Napoleonic France dominates the continent of Europe, integrating sizable territories into France. Russia is reduced but not totally defeated (sheer size and bad weather made that a problem for many would-be conquerors). French eventually get into territorial clashes with the British and the Americans.
Anyways, I think it's even more interesting to think if we kept the original module of election for the Presidency where the Vice-President was the guy that got the 2nd highest amount of votes, instead of what we currently have with party's putting forth their "combo" candidates.
Or kept with the practice of the House Members electing the Senate. The Founders were classically trained and had a distrust of direct Democracies from Thucydides and Plato.
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What would have happened if ancient and medieval mesoamerican cultures had developed gunpowder and advanced seafaring technology before the Europeans and had set sail to the east instead of the other way around?I thought about that one too CH but they lacked an intergal part to advance there technology.
*Drum roll please*
The Horse.
Thats right folks the gift of the Goddess Epona helped advance western civilization because the native peoples of North America didn't have beasts of burden equal to them.
Think of how important the humble horse has been to all advanced civilizations.
I am a definate horse lover(not a lover of horses thank you) and could extole their virtues for hours but think on this. Why is everything today measured in horse power.My THEORY behind the retarded development of the mesoamerican society was they lacked the horse unlike their eurpoean counter parts.
To be fair, horses had been in the Pre-Columbian Americas. They just died out.
(Some postulate that Americans drove horses extinct.)
Rommel had fully appreciated just how depraved the Nazi regime was?
Rommel and likely at the very least a sizable chunk of the Afrika Korps defect to the Allies and the Allies even more quickly drive the Axis forces out of Northern Africa. Rommel uses his expertise in armoured warfare to help the Allied command organize faster and more coordinated attacks, allowing a swifter advance through Italy (although rough terrain would still be difficult to deal with) and Rome is liberated months earlier and the Allies move up planning for an invasion of Western Europe. Possibly resulting in the war ending months sooner.
Rommel had fully appreciated just how depraved the Nazi regime was?
Rommel and likely at the very least a sizable chunk of the Afrika Korps defect to the Allies and the Allies even more quickly drive the Axis forces out of Northern Africa. Rommel uses his expertise in armoured warfare to help the Allied command organize faster and more coordinated attacks, allowing a swifter advance through Italy (although rough terrain would still be difficult to deal with) and Rome is liberated months earlier and the Allies move up planning for an invasion of Western Europe. Possibly resulting in the war ending months sooner.
?
I miss HD, too, but I don't see what that has to do with Rommel.
What would have happened if...
Firefly had not been cancelled?
Oh, the rapture.
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8 years of the highest rating Fox has ever had.You mean like with Family Guy?
Or with Arrested Development?FOX has dumped some pretty popular shows for next to no reason. I wish Firefly had stayed on the air too. :(
Fair enough.
On the other hand...married with children last two seasons too many.
Can't say I disagree.
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Can't say I disagree.8 years of the highest rating Fox has ever had.You mean like with Family Guy?
Or with Arrested Development?FOX has dumped some pretty popular shows for next to no reason. I wish Firefly had stayed on the air too. :(
Fair enough.
On the other hand...married with children last two seasons too many.
Ahh but a young Christina Applegate, so many lonely hormone enriched teenage nights Kelly Bundy got me through.
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What?
We see you fapin',
we laughin'.It's be-cause you wank to Kelly Bundy.
You wank to Kelly Bundy.
You spank to Kelly Bundy.
You crank to Kelly Bundy.
So you got sticky undies.
*set to Ridin' Dirty*
What would happen if Michael Bay made a movie without any explosions.
What would happen if Michael Bay made a Oscar worthy movie.
Ahh but a young Christina Applegate, so many lonely hormone enriched teenage nights Kelly Bundy got me through.Can't say I disagree.8 years of the highest rating Fox has ever had.You mean like with Family Guy?
Or with Arrested Development?FOX has dumped some pretty popular shows for next to no reason. I wish Firefly had stayed on the air too. :(
Fair enough.
On the other hand...married with children last two seasons too many.
What would happen if Michael Bay made a movie without any explosions.
What would happen if Michael Bay made a Oscar worthy movie.