Hi, to start out i personally hate to play spell casters but never actually tried but the one I've been looking at is the necromancer. Now this is for my home game and i don't know what alignment I can or cannot be or mostly anything we don't even know who will be running the game at this current point. but the thing is i wanted to know how you all would make a good necromancer type character? now i say "type" because i want you guys to be "creative" about it, like it doesn't have to be a wizard that goes into the necromancer spells but something more creative like a cleric that is evil or something like that, though i would appreciate a more wizard outlook.
Thank you, i will try to respond to any questions you may have.
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As a Necromancer, alignment is not a problem. You may want to steer away from the Evil spells anyway though. Creating zombies/skeletons isn't going to go over well with the Good Guys and some of the Bad guys.
You could use your magic against undead. Fighting fire with fire so to speak. Being able to counterspell the bad Necromancer's spells well be real useful, and turning undead against eachother(with command undead) can saves lives.
Thank you for replying so quickly to start off with, and another thing is both of you have some great ideas and i like them especially Mirror Mirror's last one he listed it sound more, "fluffed" which is what i like in a character but over all character in combat Dragonborn3 has a great idea with the whole "fire with fire" concept. to be honest though i did like mirrors and wanted to see if you can go more into it because to be honest I've only looked at the Libris Mortis book once and it did look pretty cool to me. Also do you think that the DM, whom ever that might be, would let me use that book.
And last was there some alignment argument before i missed about animate dead?
OK this all looks great thank you very much to both of you, but there is one last question i wanted to ask. Is there a place in which i can get tips or just in general learn how to be a spell-caster because as i said this will be my first just for the fact that it sounds kinda difficult to make a really good spell caster, so if you could point me in a good direction because i'm still trying to figure in stats that i would want on this character that would be great.
Thank you all, i am still open to suggestion.
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Well, this site is a great place to start. Make a thread titled "Necromancer Build - Help!" or something similar, and it shouldn't be long before people post spells, skills, and feats for a decent Necromancer. Be sure to post exactly what you have available, and be sure to get a Core version in case the DM you play with doesn't allow anything but the Core rules(Player Handbook only, be it 3.5 or PF).
Hi I'm sorry guys i just noticed something, I'm under conversions and have been is there any way to move it to discussions or something a little more appropriate?
As a poster above put you could always take the non-evil necromancy spells. Also back in the 3.5 days Dragon Mag they did an article on a good aligned necromancer. The necromancer would speak with the spirit of the body before raising it. In return for a determined period of service, the necromancer would perform a task for the spirit and always treat the body with respect. At the end of the agreed period the Necromancer would ensure that the body is laid to rest as requested by the spirit. I know that the animate spells have the evil descriptor but you could work with your DM on this.
Here's a couple links for you:
http://gctm.free.fr/add/necromant/index.html
This is the Complete Book of Necromancers, an AD&D 2nd edition supplement. While none of the rules materials will be applicable to Pathfinder, it is filled to the brim with great fluff ideas that will help get you in the right mindset, including presenting a range of necromancer archetypes. It also has tons of great ideas for DMs running campaigns that include necromancer characters, so it's a good link to give your DM as well.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5584.0
This is K's guide to necromancy in D&D 3.5 edition. It is an optimization guide for characters who create and use undead. While still somewhat helpful, a lot has changed for necromancy in the move from 3.5 to Pathfinder. Rebuking undead works completely differently now, Skeletons are weaker then they were before, The Fast Zombie and Bloody Skeleton templates have basically replaced regular zombies and skeletons for Animate Dead use, and a huge part of the guide is given over to the tons and tons of expansion material for necromantic characters in 3.5 edition, which may or may not be available to you depending on whether you're DM feels like converting any of it to Pathfinder rules. All that said, it's still a very in-depth guide and is worth looking at.
http://community.wizards.com/bleak_academy/wiki/Dread_Necromancer%27s_Handb ook
This is a handbook-style guide for the Dread Necromancer, a 3.5 class from 'Heroes of Horror'. This was my favorite class in 3.5 - a Cha-Based spontaneous arcane caster with tons of spells per day that he can cast from his entire spell list - though the list itself was very small and heavily focused on necromancy. The class also had an at will negative energy touch attack, gained extra abilities for controlling and creating undead, gained the equivalent of an 'improved familiar' at level 7, and gained undead-like traits as you leveled, leading up to 20th level when you became a 'lich' (you don't actually gain the template, but you do become undead, get the phylactory, and have lich-like class features). You don't have to create undead for the class to be fun - and indeed you can't actually create undead creatures 8th level - though from 8th level on you will be giving up on a relatively large part of the class if you don't.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/communityContent/conversions/dreadNecromancerPFUpgrade
Here's a thread on the conversion forum here about converting the Dread Necromancer to Pathfinder Rules. It's actually pretty simple to do - the main work is in converting the spells, though even most of those should be fairly straight forward. If you like the sound of the class in the handbook above, then pass this link to your DM and ask if he'll allow the conversion. If so, you'll still have to find a copy of Heroes of Horror.
All that said, there are some things to consider with a Necromancer-type-character.
1) Animating Dead is part of the point. Let's get the gorilla in the room out of the way first. Animate Dead is the archetypal Necromancy spell. Whether you're playing an amoral character, or a character with abnormal morality who simply doesn't think undead are inherently evil, or simply an 'evil-curious' character who starts down the road of necromancy only to be later corrupted by the research, you're eventually going to want to cast this spell, and make use of the undead monsters you create. It's central to the fun and theme of a necromancer.
Once you accept this, you have to ask how the other characters are going to respond. Some players like playing, and some DMs like running for, characters who are morally gray. This is the group you want, and a Neutral necromancer will fit into such a group perfectly.
The average group has a slightly more 'black and white' morality, and this will make it a little harder. Casting [evil] spells will probably be considered an 'evil act', though doing so only occasionally shouldn't cause an alignment shift anyway. Note that the Big Bad Evil Guy doesn't suddenly become neutral just because he casts a Magic Circle Against Evil every time he wants to Planar Bind a fiend.
But Animate Dead isn't just an [evil] spell, it actually creates evil creatures, creatures that will murder any innocent people they come across if you ever lose control of them - such as by dying, a fairly common PC passtime. Even if casting [evil] spells isn't considered an evil act, creating [evil] creatures will be.
Many parties, even those with a more 'black and white' morality, will still be willing to accept a neutral character who performs evil acts in pursuit of good goals - and note that such a character is still firmly in the definition of 'neutral'. They likely won't throw too big a fit about a fiend bloodline sorcerer who casts [evil] subtype Summon Monster spells, for instance.
You might be able to coach such a group to accept Animate Dead by building up to it over time. Maybe early on you'll cast a few Summon Undead spells, if your DM is willing to convert them from the 3.5 Spell Compendium. Maybe a bit later you'll take control of undead monsters you come across via Command Undead (the feat if you're a cleric, the spell if you're a sorcerer, both if you're a necromancy specialist wizard), turning them against each other or their masters before destroying them. Maybe later you'll hold onto some of these monsters instead of destroying them at the end of the dungeon - after all, they could be useful later. Finally, once you've convinced your party that having some Undead monsters around full time can be useful, you make the final jump to actually creating some from downed monsters yourself.
This works well for the 'noble intentions slowly corrupted by the research' character archetype, since it basically follows their natural progression, anyway. Note that at no point will you be digging up grandma's corpse in the local cemetary. Humanoids who advance by class level make terrible undead anyway, and are a complete waste of expensive material components and hit die control limits. You will only ever make undead from the corpses of giants and dragons and other evil monsters that you kill anyway. And you will also never make regular skeletons or zombies, only bloody skeletons or fast zombies, though I've already mentioned that.
All that said, some parties, players, and DMs will never be willing to accept a character who actually creates undead creatures, and in that case you'll want to know up front that such is the case and play something else from the get go. Also, Paladins are specifically forced to hate undead by their class features, and specifically required to never associate with those who commit evil acts by their code of conduct.
If someone wants to play a paladin, then try to nudge them towards the Cavalier, a new class coming out in the Pathfinder Advanced Players Guide, which might be more what they want, anyway - with a more powerful mount and a more customizable code of conduct which doesn't punish them for allowing their allies to play whatever characters they want. If the player doesn't go for it, though, then you're again better off just playing something else.
2) Pathfinder Society. The organized gameplay aspect of Pathfinder strongly discourages characters who wish to use undead, though it doesn't forbid it outright. It does this through mechanics. Any undead creature you create via Animate Dead or any other method is destroyed at the end of each session you play, even though they still have the same expensive material component cost. Any undead creature you gain control of in any other way is likewise destroyed. Further, only Pathfinder material is allowed - no conversions from 3.5, so you won't have access to any of the 3.5 necromancy expansion material. As you can see, this doesn't make playing a necromancer type character impossible, but does greatly hamper any actual necromantic activities you might want to engage in.
If you're dead set on playing a necromancer in a Society game go ahead, one of my Society characters is a necromancer, though I don't play him much. I would recommend playing something else if there's anything else you want to play, though.
I'll have more thoughts later on, but it's work time for me, and this post is long enough already. Laters.
Some 3.5 resources to look at if your DM is allowing Conversions:
Spell Compendium: for the most up to date, most balanced versions of a number of cool spells for necromanticaly inclined casters, particularly Revive Undead, Awaken Undead, Plague of Undead, and the Summon Undead chain.
Heroes of Horror: for the Dread Necromancer class, and a few cool spells like Haunt Shift. Note that you should start with the Spell Compendium versions if your DM is converting any spells that were reprinted in that book.
Libris Mortis: for some interesting feats (particularly the Corpse Crafter chain), some decent prestige classes (the Pale Master and Master of Shrouds were alright; though sadly the True Necromancer is a bigger trap the Mystic Theurge), and a good way to become undead (the 'Necropolitan' template, which included costs in experience and gold for PCs). There were some decent spells here, too, but they were mostly reprinted with errata in the Spell Compendium, so you'll want to use those versions as a base for conversion.
Complete Arcane: for the 'Spellstitched' template, which a wizard or sorcerer can pay to add to their undead.
Frostfell: for the Lord of the Uttercold feat, which lets you make your cold spells deal half negative energy damage. Skeletons are immune to cold damage, so this lets you drop area effect cold spells which hurt your enemies while healing your undead. K talks about this in his guide.
Sandstorm: for the Walker in the Wastes PrC for divine casters. You lose some levels, but gain the 'dry lich' template, which is basically 'lich+'.
Dragon Compendium: for the Deathmaster class (least, I think that's what it was called), a prepared arcane caster with an undead companion, early access to animate dead, and transformation into a lich at 20th level.
What class to chose?
The right class for a necromancer will depend on whether your DM allows conversion of 3.5 material, what play style you want, and what your character concept is. Obviously the detached academic concept is better served by a specialist wizard, while the herald of death's power might be better served by a cleric.
In play style, wizards (and arcane classes in general) tend to be more 'sit backey', using their undead as bodyguards while their hurl magical death at their enemies from the rear, while clerics (and divine classes in general) tend to be more 'run forwardy', leading their undead into battle from the front, or at least from the middle, keeping their minions going with inflict spells and channeled negative energy while lashing out at their enemies directly with physical attacks augmented by divine buffs. Any character with undead pets will use them to control the field of battle, blocking charge lanes, providing flanking, and so forth.
If you're playing Pathfinder only, you have the following choices from the core book:
Wizard: a strong contender, can have access to both the Command Undead spell and the 'Command Undead' feat (the latter via specialization). Wizards are strong characters overall, and necromancy offers a number of useful spells beyond the archetypal Animate Dead, including Blindness, Fear, Magic Jar, Circle of Death and Astral Projection. There are probably stronger specialties if you just want to play a 'Wizard', but if you're looking to play a 'Necromancer' this is a solid choice.
Cleric: Also a strong contender, the Cleric gain earlier access to the Animate Dead spell, and gains Channel Negative Energy which can eventually be used to heal yourself if you take the Death domain. The cleric has better hit points, BAB, saves, and proficiences then a wizard, can cast in armor, and has some very potent self buffs. On the downside, a negative energy cleric can have troubles healing the party, especially at low levels, and as a cleric you'll be expected to do that.
Sorcerer: Not a very good choice for a necromancer. Oh, sure, sorcerers can be great and fun characters, but the archetypal necromancy spells are typically either highly situational (such as Command Undead) or downtime spells (such as Animate Dead), neither of which a Sorcerer wants gumming up their extremely limited list of spells known. It can be done, but you'll be at a handicap, and the stronger you stick to your necromancy theme when choosing your spells, the more serious that handicap will become.
There are some classes from the Advanced Player's Guide coming out that can be played as classical necromancers, though I don't really recommend them. They are:
Oracle: A much worse choice then it appears. The have all the drawbacks of sorcerers, but must choose their spells from the more limited and situational Cleric spell list. The special abilities and bonus spells of the necromancy-themed Oracle Focus are also largely unimpressive. The one thing they have going for them is the ability to get the 'Command Undead' feat on a Cha-based caster. That's nice, but it doesn't make up for the rest of the things they lose compared to a cleric, especially for a necromancy-focused character. I'm not saying they're bad characters, but they don't make great necromancers, imo. Which is sad, because their fluff is awesome, and their curse, particularly the haunted one, just oozes flavor. If you're playing in a particularly low powered, low threat campaign then you might consider this class for flavor, but otherwise, as a necromancer, you're pretty much always better off taking the same character concept and making it a cleric instead.
Witch: The Rat Familiar grants a which access to Command Undead and Animate Dead, which is all you really need to play a classical necromancer. The rest of the Witch fluff, and several of the witch hexes (the evil eye in particular), are also great for a necromancer. The limited spellcasting hurts early on, but gets better, and unlike the Oracle focus abilities, a Witch's hexes can be used at will to help get you through those early levels before you can reliably cast every combat. The drawback is the familiar - lose it and you're basically useless until you can replace - and that's expensive enough that if you lose it more then once you might as well retire the character. Hopefully they'll fix that before the final release, but in the mean time, if your DM is the type to target familiars, or even the type to remember when they're in the area of blast spells, then I wouldn't play the Witch at all. The cost of a flubbed reflex save is simply too great.
Focusing on core material only. Dread Necromancer is a really buff class and is probably the front runner if your GM allows 3.5 material. I'm assuming Grey Hat/Black Hat Necromancer, White Hat Necromancers honestly are somewhat suspect power wise unless your GM allows use of [evil] spells as morally grey.
Necromancer Cleric
Negative Energy Channel
Darkness & Death Domains
At 8th level + you can negative energy channel to keep your undead minions in the fight longer, negative energy heals you, and you and your undead minions function well in darkness due to darkvision on undead and eyes of darkness domain ability. Keeping the battlefield dark gives the cleric and undead significant advantages vs foes. Buff and bash as needed.
Note this build is better as a NPC build as negative energy channel + darkness typically hampers most PC parties. It can definitely be fun though if the party has darkvision as a racial trait.
Necromancer Wizard
Can't heal undead minions effectively but spell selection is better suited to debuffing, utility spells, blast and buffing. Enervation is a great debuff spell vs single targets, magic jar can be an awesome spell, haste and black tentacles are always great, etc. Look at various wizard build guides and modify for necromancy.
Note you will invariably want to cast either haste or remove paralysis when you make your zombie minions. Fast Zombies are really nice.
Power levels of undead minions are also very dependent on access to corpses. If you will only have reliable access to low HD medium sized corpses your minion strength will be less than if you can make girallon fast zombies ;)
I mentioned this earlier, but here's a bit better detail:
Bloody Skeletons and Fast Zombies
Do not make skeletons or zombies in Pathfinder. Skeletons and Zombies already had limited use in 3.5, and in pathfinder they're even worse. The HD size for Undead creatures shrank in the transition to pathfinder, and this was compensated for by undead creatures gaining bonus hit points per HD equal to their cha mod. But skeletons and zombies don't have a Cha mod, so the result is they have way less hit points now. Further, a number of abilities other creatures had that they used to retain when they became skeletons or zombies have been replaced by abilities that no longer make the leap.
For example, hydras used to have a special quality to attack with all their heads as a standard action. Since that was an (ex) special qualty enhancing their natural attacks, skeletons and zombies of hydras would retain it. Now hydras have the Pounce special attack instead. Skeletons and zombies do not retain extraordinary special attacks, only extraordinary special qualities that enhance attacks, so they lose the ability to move and attack with more then one head. This is not the only such change, so be careful to check the new monster descriptions for changes when using recommended undead lists from 3.5.
Further, if you're not playing with conversion material, then you also don't have access to all the cool stuff that made animated dead so good in 3.5 - you don't have the corpse crafter feats, or the spellstitched template, or the Awaken Undead spell.
It's not all bad news, though, the Pathfinder Bestiary introduced a number of variant skeletons and zombies, many of which can explicitly be created with Animate Dead. The best of these are by far the Bloody Skeleton and Fast Zombie
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http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-lists-and-details/-s/skeleton/bloo dy-skeleton
The Bloody Skeleton is the defensive choice. It has more hit points (thanks to a higher charisma), fast healing, and automatically returns to unlife if it isn't destroyed in the proper way. This makes bloody skeletons very durable, and saves gold in the long run, as you won't have to replace lost minions as frequently. They are especially useful for wizard necromancers who can have difficulty healing injured undead servants.
Creating a Bloody Skeleton works just the same as creating a regular skeleton, but the Bloody Skeleton counts as having double the normal number of hit dice for the purpose of animating it. Note that it only counts as its normal number of hit dice for control purposes after you've created it. In effect, this means that you can make a bloody skeleton of any creature so long as you have at least as many caster levels as the target creature had racial hit dice. It also means that bloody skeletons cost twice as much to animate as regular skeletons, but the price is certainly worth it.
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http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-lists-and-details/-z/zombie/fast-z ombie
The Fast Zombie is the offensive choice. It does not suffer the staggered condition that plagues other zombies, and indeed gets to make an extra attack when it delivers a full attack. It does not count as having a higher hit dice for animation purposes (although it does still suffer from the normal zombie bonus hit dice for size), so you can make fast zombies of more powerful creatures then you can make into bloody skeletons.
Creating a Fast Zombie requires you to cast Remove Paralysis (which all clerics know by virtue of their casting mechanics) or Haste (which all wizards and sorcerers should know by virtue of it being one of the best 3rd level arcane spells in the game), along with Animate Dead.
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So, basically, Pathfinder skeletons and zombies are bad, but Pathfinder bloody skeletons and fast zombies are good (or at least decent). If you come across a creature that you want to animate but that has too many hit dice to make into a fast or bloody undead, don't succumb to the temptation to raise it as a regular skeleton. Instead, caste gentle repose on it (or don't, it's your nose), and dump it in a sack of holding or portable hole or just bury it in sand until you're high enough level to come back and make a proper undead out of it.
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Lots of great posts up there. Don't know if it was mentioned, but another good thread to check for the beginning wizard is Treantmonk's optimization guide for wizards, also to be found in this part of the forum. Here's the thread link:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/treantmonksGuideToWizardsOptimization
It's been mentioned above, but one thing just to make clear: Necromancy can really be divided into two subschools. On the one hand we have spells that create and augment undead minions to do your bidding, and on the other we have necromancy spells that directly affect enemies, debuffing them (e.g., waves of fatigue, enervation) or killing them outright. Ideally, you'll want some ability in both areas, but focus primarily on one.
As a simple rule of thumb, if you want to focus on necromancy that directly affects enemies by debuffing, etc., you'll probably want to go wizard, since most of the best spells in this vein are arcane. If you want to instead command a legion of undead servitors, cleric is probably the better choice.
The necromancer who attacks enemies with negative energy type spells will be more inclined to take feats like Spell Focus (necromancy) to boost save DCs, metamagic feats, etc. Undead servants are still useful as blockers (always great fun to blast an area with a fear spell that your undead are immune to), but they won't be as powerful as if you focused on creating the toughest undead possible.
If you are restricted to Pathfinder material, I would definitely go in this direction, since the best undead-creating feats and abilities are things like the Corpsecrafter chain of feats from Libris Mortis.
Another (non-Pathfinder) class worth mention, also from Heroes of Horror, is the Archivist. It is basically the divine equivalent of a wizard, with a prayerbook from which they memorize spells. They also have a cool lore ability that grants allies bonuses when fighting certain types of creatures (like undead). From an optimization standpoint wizard and cleric are both better, but thematically archivists definitely fit the bill, since they are all about researching hidden and forgotten lore. They also have a perk over clerics in that they can learn non-cleric divine spells (such as druid spells) which grant them access to buff spells and the like that no other single spellcaster can easily duplicate.
Another (non-Pathfinder) class worth mention, also from Heroes of Horror, is the Archivist.
The archivist has a bad reputation among some DMs because of its extreme optimization potential under certain campaign assumptions - specifically the assumption that the DM is using the economy rules from the 3.5 DMG, which state that any town of Wealth limit x will have x gp worth of any possible item. The Archivist can scribe any divine scroll they find into their spellbook, and between druid spells and cleric domains, that basically lets the archivist learn pretty much any spell at all (literally any spell, if you assume the existence of the 3.5 Geomancer prestige class). This makes Archivists basically single classed Mystic Theurges - so long as you assume the character can walk into any metropolis and buy any divine scroll that could conceivably exist.
Of course, no DM in their right mind actually uses those economy rules, and if you take an even slightly more restrictive approach to the availability of Druid and Domain scrolls, the mid to high level Archivist is very quickly reduced from an unstoppable demigod to a cleric with fewer spells known and worse hit points, proficiencies, and class abilities.
In 3.5 the Archivist in practice made a fairly poor necromancer when compared to the cleric - Rebuke was simply to important early on, and there weren't enough important necromancy spells available by other divine lists to make the Archivist's unique spell learning abilities meaningful. It was a very fluffy choice, though.
Rebuke Undead vs. Command Undead (feat)
One of the big changes for clerical necromancer when translating from 3.5 to Pathfinder is the change from rebuke/command undead to channel negative energy, and the 'Command Undead' feat (not to be confused with the Command Undead spell, which serves a similar purpose for arcane casters).
The old Rebuke undead allowed you to control 2x your cleric level in Hit Dice of undead, with your caster level being at least twice as high as the highest hit dice of undead you controlled. The control you gained in this fashion was total and permanent. At early levels, it was ok for nabbing a skeleton or two before you could make them yourself. At later levels the power of the individual creatures you could control with the ability very quickly died off. While the ability had other uses, when it came to actually controlling undead, at high levels the ability was pretty much only good for controlling an unlimited army of spawning undead (command an undead creature that creates spawn under its control, then gain indirect control over all those spawn). Of course, while the normal intended use of the ability was totally pointless, this unintended use was completely broken. It still could make for some interesting gaming the the purpose of the campaign was to have the PCs running large organizations - be they armies or spy rings - but for the purpose of ye olde dungeon delving, indirect control over an army of 11,000 shadows isn't exactly practical.
But that's all in the past. In the present we have 'Channel Negative Energy' instead. This ability allows for healing your undead, but in general it isn't worth using this way. By the time you can create undead yourself, a wand of inflict light wounds is so cheap as to be of negligible cost. It can work alright as emergency healing if you have the Death Domain and it's ability to heal yourself with the ability, though, so it's certainly not useless in this regard.
The ability can also be used to inflict some splash damage on living targets, which will be your primary use for it early on. Just be careful not to catch your friends in the effect. At later levels the impact of this ability quickly starts to fade, from what I can tell, but I haven't played with it myself to speak first hand on it.
The undead control aspects come into play via the feat 'Command Undead', which you will eventually want to pick up if you are playing a necromancy themed cleric. Wizards and Oracles can also gain access to this feat via their specialization and focus options respectively, so if you're playing one of those, pay attention as well.
The 'command undead' feat lets you expend a channel use to force any undead with Hit Dice equal to or less then your cleric level* within the area to make a will save with a DC based on your Charisma modifier and cleric level*. Any that fail fall under your control, up to a maximum total hit dice equal to your cleric level*. If more then that are controlled, you pick which ones to keep up to that limit and the rest are not affected.
The control is total. It is permanent for mindless undead, but intelligent undead will be able to make a new save every day. Note also that Channel resistance, a common trait of more powerful undead creatures, will apply to this ability.
So, when compared to the previous version of rebuke/command, the new version allows you to control fewer undead total, with less reliable control over intelligent undead, but if you use the ability on just one creature at a time you can control a more powerful individual.
The new ability is somewhat better for the intended purpose of controlling undead created by the Create Undead spells. Just be sure to lock each creature up each night so that if it passes its daily save you can re-command it the next day without risk of it escaping or attacking you.
The ability no longer lets you control armies of spawning undead, since no matter how high you make the DC, your entire army will still turn against you every 20 days or so.
Another important thing to note is that, by allowing a save, the ability is much more charisma dependent. If you want to get much use out of the ability at all, you're going to need a decent Cha score, and you'll need to invest in cha boosting items as you level. It's a pretty significant cost for wizards and clerics who want to use the ability.
Oracles, being cha based casters, are great at this. However, Oracles are otherwise rather lackluster when compared to clerics, imo, and Bone Focus oracles even even more so.
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*Yes, the feat text does specifically refer to Cleric Level multiple times. Yes, the Wizard and Oracle special abilities to gain the feat do not mention this at all. So yes, by RAW necro specialist wizards and bone focus oracles gain the feat, but cannot actually use it, since they can only control a maximum number of hit dice of undead equal to their cleric level, which is zero.
On the other hand, the intent of the rules is clear, and this will never come up in an actual game, and if it does you should probably walk out right then and there.
Command Undead, (spell)
So there were big changes to the cleric's rebuke/comand ability, to the point that the Pathfinder version bares little resemblance to the 3.5 version. What about the arcane equivalent, the Command Undead spell?
Well, from what I can tell, this spell came through the transition completely unscathed. It works exactly as it used to. How is that?
Command Undead basically works one way against mindless undead (undead with Int = 0), and different way against intelligent undead (undead with Int > 0).
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Against mindless undead, Command Undead is basically a Dominate Monster spell. Only it last for days equal to your caster level, has no limit on the number of creatures you can control at once, and allows no save what so ever. By repeating the spell once for every caster level number of days (for instance, once every four days if you're caster level four, or once every seven days if you're caster level seven), you can maintain total control of a mindless undead of any hit dice permanently, without the target getting so much as a save.
A seventh level wizard who dedicates just two second level spell slots to this spell every day can control 14 mindless undead via this ability indefinitely. By coincidence, that's also the level at which a wizard first gains access to Animate Dead. The strongest undead they can create at this level is a 14 hit dice Fast Zombie. Between the 28 hit dice you can control via Animate Dead and the 14 mindless undead you can control by dedicating only two spell slots per day to Command Undead, that wizard can already control over 200 hit dice of undead monstrosities they've created themselves, and they could easily control more by spending more slots on Command Undead.
If you have leadership (not that leadership isn't broken to begin with), then any third or higher level arcane followers you might have can cast Command Undead on spare undead you create and then order those undead to obey your commands, easily pushing your potential control pools into the thousands of hit dice.
Basically, what I'm saying is that, because of this spell, the only real limits to the size of an undead army controlled by an arcane caster are money, access to good corpses, and practicality (more on that last one in a future post)
If you bump into mindless undead and don't have this spell prepared, you should seriously consider retreating until you have a chance to prepare more of it. If your DM is prone to using mindless undead, this can easily be one of the most powerful spells in the game. In 3.5 there were mindless undead all the way up to epic level that this spell rendered useless for in game purposes by its very existence. If your DM is prone to using mindless undead, you should definitely invest in a wand of this spell.
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Against intelligent undead, Command Undead is basically charm person, only it lasts for days equal to your caster level. That's good, don't get me wrong. And if you have a decent Cha you can pretty reliably give the target orders. But it's not super reliable, and like all charm-type spells, its power depends heavily on DM discretion.
It's still a good spell for these creatures, but it isn't as spectacular as it is for mindless undead, and the overall possibilities are much more limited.
Practicality
So, you've joined a party of antiheroes, or a party of morally gray heroes, or a party of innocent heroes that you've slowly corrupted into your gray morality over time, and now you want to actually start using some undead creatures.
Hold up.
What kind of campaign are you playing? Regular campaigns generally assume a party of adventurers picking up quests from a mostly good community and venturing into the wilderness to find a dungeon where the quest can be completed.
If you're playing in this traditional structure, you have to remember that most quest-giving communities will take a dim view of the undead, regardless of what concessions you've won from your party. If you're a truly famous (or infamous) hero of the land, then you might get away with a skeletal guard or mount, but for the most part you're going to want to make sure you have a place to stow your undead when not in use - whether this is burying them in the woods outside of town at lower levels or keeping them at your very own home base at higher levels.
Of course, sometime surprises happen even in a town, and you might want a personal bodyguard available. At mid level, carrying a personal bodyguard with you hidden in a sack of holding works. At higher levels that sack can be traded in for the more expensive expensive but much more useful portable hole. At low levels, the only things you have to rely on are disguise checks, gentle repose and a good bluff check if you want to take any undead with you into town.
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So you've got a plan on how to store your undead when you're in town, and even how to bring a couple with you in case you bump into an unpleasant surprise. But what about the actual adventuring? Animate Dead lets you control four times your caster level in hit dice of undead creatures. Command Undead lets ups that limit to almost arbitrarily high. But this just isn't practical for regular adventuring. Combat takes forever and is horribly boring for your friends if you take thirty minutes for each of your turns because of all the undead you have to roll for. You're DM's carefully constructed encounters get swamped with extra bodies turning engaging, dynamic combats into bogged down scrums.
Simply put, it's not cool. If you've ever had the druid in your party who insisted on converting all of their spells into summon nature's ally, and then spamming multiple castings every encounter, then you know what I'm talking about, Only it could very easily be worse, since your undead are always there, and can gum up even non-combat encounters.
So you could animate and lead an army of the undead sufficient to overcome the local government, but unless you're explicitly playing in a mass combat, army scale campaign, you shouldn't.
Instead, what you should do keep with you not more then two undead servants at a time, and memorize their stats and abilities so you can direct them quickly in battle.
After that, you can create more undead, but these extra creatures should be ordered to follow the commands of one of your allies each. Make one for each ally that doesn't already have a pet or use summoned monsters. Now, 'follow that guy's orders unless I tell you different' is probably too elaborate an instruction for mindless undead, but most DMs will allow it by virtue of how much more smoothly things run when you split the pets up amongst various players.
It also gives your allies an extra reason to accept your choice of vocation, as they get cool pets, mounts, bodyguards, or flanking buddies out of it. You may soon find the party rogue who was squeamish about those skeletons you controlled via Command Undead at level three actually bringing you powdered onyx to animate a newer, better flanking buddy when the fast zombie dire wolf you gave her bites the bucket at level nine.
Even with this extra discretion, you're still turning your party of assorted classes into a party of pet classes, which will mean extra bodies on the table for the DM to consider when designing encounters, but it's still much more workable then if you brought a horde of undead under your direct control, and, after all, the party could have been all druids, summoners, and cavaliers to begin with, so it's not like the possibility of an all pet class party isn't built into the game to begin with.
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The last thing to consider from a practicality standpoint is when to cast Animate Dead. For the most part, this should be a downtime spell. No matter how well you familiarize yourself with the skeleton and zombie templates (and by now you should know I mean the bloody skeleton and fast zombie templates), it still takes real world time to apply those templates to a creatures. While Animate Dead is technically a standard action to cast, you don't want to stop an exiting combat dead in its tracks ad you crunch a bunch of numbers. Frankly, you probably don't want to stop the adventure in its tracks either.
So while exceptions can be made, in general when you kill something that might make a god undead, you want to either dump it in a sack of holding or portable hole, or just note its location and come back later, between sessions, to animate the corpse. That way the numbers can be crunched between sessions.
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As a first time spellcaster player, all of the above may be a bit much to absorb. To keep things simple, here's my recommendation:
1. Play a Necromancer wizard. Intelligence should be your best stat, so go human or elf unless there's a particular race you are dying to play.
2. Take enchantment and either evocation or divination as banned schools (it's easier to do without divination if you have another caster in the group like a cleric).
3. For feats, look towards Spell Focus (necromancy) and Greater Spell Focus (necromancy). You want to boost the DCs of your spells. Improved Initiative and Toughness are also good feats for any caster to take.
4. For skills, be sure to keep Knowledge (religion) maxed out, since it deals with undead. You'll also want ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft, at the very least.
5. For spells, take at least one necromantic spell per spell level that targets enemies, such as: cause fear, ray of enfeeblement, blindness/deafness, scare, ray of exhaustion, enervation, fear, waves of fatigue, and the like.
6. Be sure to also take non-necromancy spells to cover situations when they are not called for. Check Treantmonk's Wizard Guide link I posted above for a detailed analysis of all the core pathfinder spells for ideas. Ideally it's a good idea to have a mix at each level of offensive, defensive, buff and utility spells.
7. Don't worry right off the bat about undead minions. You won't have them right away anyway. By the time you get access to animate dead, you should have a good feel in your campaign for how they fit in, and hopefully will have done some research at that time on what you might have available to you.
8. Be wary of touch-range necromancy spells, like touch of fatigue, ghoul touch, and vampiric touch. You can get away with some of these if you take the spectral hand spell (allowing you to deliver them at range); you definitely do NOT want to be at touch range with your enemies!
9. Take note of fear-based spells. Fear conditions (shaken, frightened, panicked) stack cumulatively, so if you do something that causes a shaken creature to be shaken, it will become frightened. The core fear-based necromantic spells (cause fear, scare, and fear) cause enemies who save to still be shaken for one round. Thus if you or an ally can make them shaken in some other way, you'll get them to run even if they make their save. This is where having an ally with maxed out Intimidate comes in handy. Fear is a powerful weapon--use it!
Thanks for bringing it back to basics. When it comes to necromancy, I can get . . . carried away. Damien's points above are great advice for starting out with a wizard necromancer.
If playing a wizard, check out Treantmonk's guide and follow the advice in it, with only one real exception:
Don't dump Charisma. This will make things difficult, since you'll have to make additional sacrifices elsewhere. Ideally you'd like a 14 Charisma, but realistically you might not be able to swing more then a 12. You still need a very high intelligence, and you still need a good constitution and reasonable dexterity.
This means your lower stats will be strength and wisdom. Low strength is par for the course for wizards. It does mean that those touch spells that you already want to avoid won't work too well, even with spectral hand.
Low wisdom fits the concept of the detached academic, delving too deep into mysteries better left in the dark. Mechanically, it will hurt your will saves and perception, though you probably still want to put points into the perception skill if you can spare them.
As for why you'll want an ok Charisma - it sets the DC of your 'Command Undead' feat, and you're also required to make opposed charisma checks if both you and an enemy have control of an undead creature, or if you try to give an order to an intelligent creature that failed its save against the Command Undead spell.
Wow i guess this is why i like to read post on Piazo everyone can help, is fast and does a very good job at it, thank you all very much i very much appreciate it.
First off i had a question for Malisteen, you were talking about "armies" of the undead. how would you go about doing this, not that i want to but that is an interesting idea. Also were playing the the pathfinder campaigns, such as Rise of the rune lord, which we just finished but i don't know what is next.
Now this does not mean i am done as i create it i might have some more questions and if i do i will be very happy if your all here to answer it.
So thank you to all, and i hope this will help others like me.
If you're looking at Pathfinder only, check my above post on the Command Undead spell. While Animate Dead alone is usually enough to provide all the undead you'll ever really want at one time for normal adventuring, the Command Undead spell lets you totally overshoot that limit by giving up a few second level spell slots.
Again, this spell grants total control over mindless undead, has no HD limit, allows no save, and lasts for caster level days. A 12th level caster who burns 3 third level spell slots per day on Command Undead can thus control an additional 36 mindless undead creatures, of any hit die total.
As an example, lets say your 12th level party recently fought against a village of hill giants that was attacking nearby human settlements (CR8 monsters, making them decent mook enemies at level 12, with stronger individuals made by adding a few class levels in). After wiping out the hill giant warriors and driving off the remains of their village, you're left with 12 or so fresh corpses, including the corpses of two stone giant barbarians. After looking around the giants' village a bit you also find their graveyard, with another 17 intact skeletons and 2 fresh corpses.
For normal adventuring, you might animate the two Stone Giant barbarian corpses as Bloody Skeletons. You pick the Barbarian corpses because they'll retain their Martial Weapon proficiencies, and you make them Bloody Skeletons because you're a wizard, and you don't want to have to worry about healing them. This costs you 1,200 gp of black onyx, and two castings of Animate Dead, or one if you have a cleric cast Desecrate first. Which you should honestly do anyway, after building an altar to the cleric's deity, for the bonus Max HP.
Remember that Bloody Skeletons count as double the number of HD when animating them (ie, 24 each in this case), hence the 600 GP per giant, but they only count as the normal number of hit dice for control purposes (so they only fill up 12 HD each of your Animate Dead control pool).
For army animation, lets say that village was only an outpost, and you expect that an entire army of giants will soon be rolling into the countryside. Your kingdom needs all the help it can get, and your king has even secretly authorized to use undead in defense of his land, so long as you keep them separate from the living troops, keep your participation secret, only use the enemys' corpses, and destroy any remaining undead after the war.
In this case, you want to animate not just two, but all of the stone giant corpses, some of them as Fast Zombies (particularly the barbarians, for extra offense), and some of them as Bloody Skeletons for durability. You've got 31 stone giant corpses, so we'll make 20 Fast Zombies (7000gp of black onyx) and 11 Bloody Skeletons (6600gp). That's a whopping 13600 gp spent, but since you're doing this for the realm you should be able to foot the bill to the king, or at least write it off on your tax return. This is several castings of animate dead, plus additional castings of Haste to make the fast zombies, so you're going to be stuck in a couple days of downtime creating this army. This is also 31 creatures, and 412 hit dice - way more hit dice then you can control with Animate Dead (you're currently limited to only 48 hit dice), so as you continue to cast Animate Dead, you'll also have to stop between castings to cast Command Undead on those creatures that go uncontrolled.
When you're done, you'll have 4 Bloody Skeleton Stone Giants under your control via Animate Dead, and 27 undead under your control via Command Undead. From this point on, you have to cast command undead 2 to 3 times each day on whichever 2 to 3 of the monsters are closest to the end of their duration, to keep those 27 remaining undead under your control indefinitely.
Now, it's not exactly an army, but it is a game-play-feasible situation that gets you 31 monsters with a combined hit dice total of 412. Easily enough to steamroll an outpost or village, and a large enough detachment to threaten a small castle or keep. And you're only one guy expending 2 to 3 of your 2nd levels spell slots to do so - hardly that much of a drain at 12th level, when you're already casting 5th and 6th level spells. If you wanted to control more, you'd only have to expend more 2nd level slots. If you run out of slots, spend third level slots. Each additional slot you expend each day lets you control an additional 12 mindless undead, since the spell last for days equal to your caster level. If that's 12 human commoner zombies, that's pathetic. But if that's 12 Stone Giant Barbarian Fast Skeletons, that's a force to be reckoned with.
But that's only the start. You'll also pick up the Leadership feat (I'm assuming the DM intended to run a mass combat style campaign from the get go, and thus is allowing this feat). Your cohort will be himself a mid level wizard, cleric, or sorcerer, depending on your needs, who will have his own Animate Dead pool, and, if arcane, will have his own second level spell slots to burn on Command Undead as well.
You'll also have followers, and any followers who are at least 3rd level will be arcane casters with their own 2nd level slots for even more Command Undeads and even more 10+ hit dice undead for you to tote around.
Note that in this kind of campaign a sorcerer is more competitive with the wizard, due to being a cha-based caster and thus having a much higher Leadership score. In a normal campaign, that doesn't count for anything, since in a normal campaign no DMs generally don't allow Leadership anyway.
So you can see that the real limit to the size of your army is your access to decent corpses (look for dragons, hydras, giants with martial weapon proficiencies, and the like), and your fund of gold. A DM looking to run such a game may even provide you with a Black Onyx mine to build your home base on - which gives your first and second level followers something to do.
At even higher levels, access to corpses might not even be an issue, as Polymorph Any Object generally allows any corpse to be turned into any other corpse permanently (though your DM will likely forbid the creation of corpses of unique monsters, may require knowledge checks to identify the creatures you want to make, and might require the corpses to at least share a creature type, though the latter restriction is less common).
At high levels monetary cost also isn't much of an issue, because you can create a Morgh via one of the Create Undead spells, I forget which. You cannot totally control a Morgh, but you don't need to. Anything it kills becomes a Fast Zombie. Chain the monster in your basement, feed it other monsters, Command Undead the fast zombies created, beat the Morgh in an opposed cha check for control, and walk out with your free new fast zombie.
True armies of the undead were the province of 3.5, and few of the mechanics that allowed them made the transition to Pathfinder, though Command Undead made it through unscathed. If your DM is looking to run such a campaign, they may translate some of the following into their Pathfinder game.
Some examples of 3.5 mechanics that allowed for huge armies of the undead:
1) Dread Necromancers. This class had an ability to control 4+cha mod per caster level HD of undead via Animate Dead, instead of the usual 4 per caster level. For cha based casters, this meant that by 12th level or so they could easily control 120 hit dice or more of undead via Animate Dead alone.
Dread necromancers are cha based casters, which means their Leadership scores are through the roof, which means they have a lot of 3+ level followers to control excess undead via the Command Undead spell.
2) Rod of Undead Mastery. This item from Libris Mortis doubles your control pool of undead via Animate Dead. For a 12th level Dread Necromancer with only +6 cha mod, that's 240 hit dice of undead, before even messing with Command Undead. Even a plain old cleric, wizard, or sorcerer of that level is carrying around 96 HD of undead with this item. Note that since Animate Dead only checks your hit dice at the time you cast the spell, you only have to hold the rod when creating new creatures.
3) Pale Master PrC and Plague of Undead spell. The former is found in 'Libris Mortis', while the most updated version of the latter can be found in the 'Spell Compendium'. Both allow you to bypass the usual expensive material components of the Animate Dead spell. Pale master does this with a second level ability to cast Animate Dead as a spell-like ability. Plague of Undead is a 9th level spell that costs 100gp per casting, basically negligible by the time you can use it, instead of 25gp per HD of undead created. Pale Master's ability is available earlier, but costs a caster level to attain. Plague of Undead allows you to make more undead with a single casting, and give all undead created by the spell maximum hit points per hit die.
4) 3.5 rebuke undead. The 3.5e version of this ability gave total and permanent control of creatures affected, though the creatures it could affect were much weaker then those that the Pathfinder version, the 'Command Undead' feat, can affect. The advantage of the 3.5 version for army amassing is that once you reach a high enough level you could 'command' shadows, wights, and eventually wraiths, all creatures that create spawn from any humanoid they kill, and that maintain total control over spawn so created. As such, a high level cleric (or dread necromancer) could control one or two undead that could in turn control an arbitrarily large number of subordinates. One shadow can easily kill and spawn an entire small village overnight.
The Pathfinder version can't do this, since any intelligent creature controlled gets a new save every day, and even if they need a nat 20 to pass, that still means they'll slip your control about once a month or so. A single mummy that briefly goes uncontrolled until you can re-command it is one thing. An entire army of shadows that suddenly decides they don't like you is another.
5) Summon Undead 5. This spell can summon a shadow, which can kill a humanoid, creating a new shadow, before the duration expires. Then the original shadow leaves and the new, independent shadow is free to be rebuked. From there, see point 3. This allows you to gain access to shadows even in games were the DM doesn't include random spawning undead for fear of exactly the above.
6) Undead Leadership. This feat, found in 'Libris Mortis', works like leadership, only it grants you particular undead as cohorts or followers. It's not as good as Leadership, but there's nothing preventing you from taking both. Note that it doesn't allow spawning undead cohorts to keep their spawn. With a good cha, that's a fair chunk of extra control, and your DM may even let you stack some class levels on your undead cohort, getting even more undead control from that.
7) Awaken Undead from the Spell Compendium lets you bypass some of this hassle by granting some of your mindless undead limited sentience (via a low, random int score). They also get back some of their skills and abilities from life, opening up a lot of possibilities, and making leading them into battle a lot easier. Note that since they're no longer mindless (and thus get a save against Command Undead, and are only 'charmed' even if they fail the save), you only want to do this with undead you control via Animate Dead.
8) Undead Leutennant from the spell compendium is a third level arcane spell that ups your max HD pool from Animate Dead while also letting you choose an intelligent undead creature to share control of your army with. This will generally be an undead PC or Cohort, but failing that might simply be an 'awakened' servant. Having another person who can issue orders to any of your undead can help, though most DMs will let you order undead to follow the orders of other PCs or leutennants, anyway.
Here's an example of a single 3.5 edition high-but-not-epic level undead army controlled by a single 16th level PC. Note that most of this relies on elements that are either rarely allowed in pathfinder (the leadership feat), or are from 3.5 supplements, so a straight Pathfinder character can't do most of this.
Of course, the more of these elements your DM translates to pathfinder, the closer to this you can get. The spawning undead controlled by rebuking, however, simply aren't possible in Pathfinder at all. The mechanic allowing them has already been translated into Pathfinder core, and it simply doesn't work that way anymore.
Primary Character: Adramelech, the Unknown; AKA Vexus the Vain
Character Level: 16
Class: Dread Necro 8, Pale Master 2, Dread Necro +6
Race: Human, with Necropolitan template from Libris Mortis
Caster Level: 15
Rebuking Level: 14
Key Abilities: Cha 28 (base 18, +4 level, +6 item)
Key Feats: Corpse Crafter, Leadership, Undead leadership
Key Skills: Bluff, Disguise, Intimidate, Religion
Key Spells: Animate Dead, Command Undead, Awaken Undead (via advanced learning), Undead Lieutenant
Key Items: Hat of Disguise, Masterwork Disguise Kit, Rod of Undead Mastery (This one rod is shared by anyone who can cast Animate Dead)
Adramalech is a name few know. To the outside world, the undead army amassing in the southern necropolis is ruled by Typhus, the Wight King, and Lucien, his vizier. Many know that the Wight King has divine powers, and some whisper that he worships a new god of undeath, though none know its name.
On the other hand, many know the name of Vexus the Vain, an adventuring fighter/sorcerer with a knack for touch attacks and curses. He has fought alongside a few different adventuring parties over the years, won some acclaim, as well as a bit of infamy - he'll certainly never be invited back to city of Kalm after that incident with the Governor's daughter. His good looks, bad boy reputation, and devil-may-care attitude have made him a favorite amongst the common folk, but in recent years, as his magic has grown in power, he's taken to disappearing for months at a time, off doing who knows what.
In truth, Vexus is Adramelech - the secret Necromancer behind the Wight King's throne. A master manipulator, Adramelech is not Typhus's god, though the Wight does honor him as an incarnation of undeath's power. Only the horde's inner circle know that Adramelech is in control, or that Vexus and Adramelech are the same person. And none but Adramelech know his true intentions, or where he plans on unleashing his army of the night.
Animate Dead Pool: 405 hit dice, including 'The Dozen' - 12 particularly powerful awakened skeletons and zombies of about 16 to 20 hit dice apiece. Each was a reasonably powerful giant, dragon, or outsider in life. Adramelech prefers to enter battle possessing the body of one of the 12 via the spell Magic Jar.
This pool also includes about 150 awakened foot soldiers - 1 hd skeletal warriors in medium armor with masterwork longbows and swords.
The remainder of this control pool is occupied by creatures chosen for utility when awakened, such as skeletal Hellwasp swarms, which retain a number of useful abilities.
Rebuking Pool: one shadow, one wight, one wraith.
The one shadow in turn controls 20 shadows - spawns it has created and commanded to follow the orders of the organization. These spawn in turn control 6 or 7 spawn apiece, which in turn control about 3 spawn. spawns of spawns of spawn exist, but are not counted here. total number of shadows: over 500. Four detachments of 50 shadows each remain with the army at all times. Several shadows have been converted into haunting presences by the Haunt Shift spell, possessing items that have been distributed amongst various captains in the army.
The one wight controls 6 wights, its spawn, which each control another 4 or 5 wights, for a total of over 30 wights. Most of the wights are gathered in a single regiment, the rest serve as captains for other undead units.
The one wraith is a new addition, and only has produced 7 spawn so far, none of which have themselves yet produced spawn. Four of these wraiths are currently with the army, one has been haunt-shifted into the gear of Typhus, one of Adramalech's cohorts, and the other two are with the spy network.
The One Shadow, One Wight, and One Wraith are hidden with the same effort, care, and paranoia that a lich puts into hiding its phylactery.
Command Undead: Adramalech dedicates four second level spell slots per day to this spell, controlling an additional 60 mindless undead. Half of these are 'the Deathwing' - a detachment of 30 zombie dragons of various sizes and types, which he leads into battle personally along with the 12. The remainder are large combat undead - Skeletal giants, hydras, and dragons.
Familiar: Peskus, a quasit with raven and wolf alternate forms
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Cohort (Leadership) - Lucien the Wise
Character Level: 13
Class: Wizard 13
Race: Human/Necropolitan
Caster Level: 13
Key Feats: Corpse Crafter, Craft Wonderous Item, Craft Construct, Stitched Flesh Familiar
Key Skills: Knowledge (assorted)
Key Spells: Command Undead, Revive Undead, Animate Dead, Undead Lieutenant, Haunt Shift
Adramelech's leadership score for attracting followers is 20 (level 16, +6 non-item cha mod, -2 for other cohorts and companions), allowing for a cohort of level 14, the max level that a cohort for a level 16 character can be. Lucien is only 13th level, because of experience spent to create golems and spell-stiched undead.
Lucien is Adramelech's right hand man, providing essential army functions including arcane transportation. Lucien performs spellstitching for the army, revives important undead that perish, and creates golems.
He also uses Haunt Shift to convert many of the shadows in the spy network into haunting presences possessing items which are then left with or gifted to individuals that the spy network wishes to keep track of. Two shadows and a wraith are haunt-shifted into Typhus's arms and armor, and several other captains within the army carry items bearing haunt-shifted shadows.
To the outside world, Lucien is Typhus's vizier and Adviser, and many suspect that he is the real master of the undead horde. Few suspect that there is yet another pulling the strings.
Animate Dead: max 104 hit dice, mostly dedicated to awakened foot soldiers as described above.
Command Undead: Lucien dedicates 2 second level spell slots to Command Undead each day, controlling an additional 26 creatures - mostly big, powerful, seige-breaking type undead - skeleton and zombie giants, hydras, and dragons.
Constructs: Lucien controls 5 Constructs, including three flesh golems, and two Iron golems.
Familiar: Blight, a stitched-flesh, spell-stitched crow with a few utility spell-like abilities
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Cohort (undead leadership) - Typhus the Wight King, the Dark Lord
Character Level - 14
Class: Wight 4, Cleric 7
Race: Wight - +3 level adjustment - see Libris Mortis, note that this number is different for cohorts then for PCs
Caster Level: 7
Rebuking Level: 7
Key Feats: Corpse Crafter
Key Spells: Desecrate, Animate Dead
Adramalech's leadership score for attracting cohorts is 20, allowing a cohort of level 14.
Typhus rides a barded skeletal nightmare - note that skeletal nightmares retain their ability to fly. His equipmant includes multiple haunting presences, including a wraith in his helmet, shadows in two gemstones embedded in his gauntlet, and a second skeletal nightmare in his belt buckle - the latter serving as an emergency escape mechanism.
To the outside world, Typhus is the lord commander of this undead army, and its true master. He is responsible for keeping order amongst the troops, and he receives ambassadors and issues dictates.
Animate Dead: Max 56 Hit die, mostly dedicated to Awakened foot soldiers, although some awakened utility creatures are included.
Note: Typhus is the daily target of Adramelech's and Ludien's Undead Leutennant spells, and can give orders to any undead they control as though he were them.
Note: Typhus does not create spawn.
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Followers (leadership)
Adramelech's leadership score for attracting followers is 22 - 16 for his level, 6 for his unmodified cha mod, +2 for a permanent home, -1 for moving around a lot and -1 for causing the death of followers, both unavoidable penalties for a character who leads armies.
This score allows adramelech to attract 75 First level followers, 7 2nd level, 4 3rd level, 2 4th level, 2 5th level, and 1 6th level.
The first level followers are mostly hired soldiers - about 50 of them given lances and mounted on skeletal steeds, the rest are rogues that serve as agents away from the army, coordinating with the Shadow network. The second level followers are split between the cavalry and the spies. Two of the third level followers are bards in the spy network.
The 6th level follower and one of the 5th level followers are clerics under Typhus, who bolster undead, cast desecrate, and have their own pools of Animated dead - 88 hit dice total - providing awakened skeletal warhorses for the cavalry and more awakened skeletal foot soldiers with the excess.
The Rest - Two 3rd level followers 2 4th level followers, and 1 5th level follower, are Specialist wizards under Lucien who dedicate all of their 3rd level spell slots to Command Undead - controlling an additional 70 undead - all powerful skeleton and zombie giants, hydras, outsiders, and dragons animated by Lucien or Adramelech.
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Followers (Undead Leadership)
Adramelech's Leadership score for attracting undead followers is 24 - the same 22 as for his regular follower leadership with an additional +2 bonus.
This allows Adramelech to attract 110 one HD skeletons or zombies, 11 two HD, 6 three to four HD, 3 five to six, 2 seven to eight, and 1 9 or 10 HD. All of these will be Awakened skeletons - the smaller HD creatures being foot solders as described above, the larger ones being various middlish creatures - skeletal owlbears or smaller hydras.
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All together? Not counting the spy network?
That's three powerful characters - two high level arcane casters capable of casting 7th level spells and one mid level divine caster capable of casting 4th level spells. The arcane casters generally Magic Jar themselves into some of the larger and more powerful undead during battle, while the divine caster leads a regiment of wights.
12 large, powerful, unique awakened skeletons and zombies with various gear and surprises including haunt-shifted subordinates, spell stitching, and magic items.
30 Mindless, high HD zombie dragons
100+ siege breaker undead - mindless, high HD skeletal dragons, hydras, Giants, & other such monsters. Two detachments of 20, led by wight captains with haunt-shifted shadows. The rest are distributed in clumps amongst the skeletal infantry.
50+ living cavalry on awakened skeletal steeds, including a few 2nd level fighters wearing armor that includes haunt-shifted shadows.
400+ awakened skeletal infantry with longbows, swords, shields, and medium armor. In eight detachments of 50, each led by a wight bearing gear that includes a haunt-shifted shadow.
200+ shadows, in 4 detachments of 50, each led by a wraith. Note that any humanoids slain by a shadow or wraith will itself rise as a shadow or wraith under the original's control in just a few rounds. If not quickly dealt with, these detachments can quickly overwhelm an entire enemy army on their own. Their standard tactic is to advance underground then rise up in the middle of enemy formations, creating confusion and disorder. Note that they cannot fight in sunlight, and must be held in reserve until night falls.
20 Wights in their own detachment, led by Typhus. Note that, apart from Typhus, this regiment also creates spawn from any humanoids it kills in only a few rounds. Also note that Typhus's arms and armor include two haunt-shifted shadows and one haunt-shifted wraith.
A few misc. add'l creatures, including 5 golemns (with some additional haunt-shifted shadows), some awakened utility undead, some mid sized awakened undead followers scattered amongst the infantry, and some low level casters who's battlefield job is to stay as far away from the fighting as possible.
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Total army, 800+ individual combatants, with well over 3,000 total hit dice, not counting a network of spies including a few human agents and over a hundreds incorporeal infiltrators. Not bad for a single 16th level character - though the army has some obvious weaknesses.
Killing any of the casters can cause large portions of the army to go uncontrolled. Finding and killing the original spawning undead can cause all of their spawn to go uncontrolled. A handful of mid to high level clerics can quickly demolish the skeletal infantry, though the larger undead would require more effort to deal with.
If you're looking for something necrotic that isn't a wizard sub-school I'd like to recommend the Death Mage, a base class we released a few weeks ago:
http://paizo.com/store/downloads/otherWorldCreations/pathfinderRPG/v5748btp y8d07&source=top
Hyrum.
Super Genius Games
If you're looking for something necrotic that isn't a wizard sub-school I'd like to recommend the Death Mage, a base class we released a few weeks ago:
http://paizo.com/store/downloads/otherWorldCreations/pathfinderRPG/v5748btp y8d07&source=top
Hyrum.
Super Genius Games
The Death Mage has some neat ideas, and is pretty cool overall, but there are some problems with it, even on my first glance through. In particular, Knowledge: Religion - the primary skill for knowledge of the after life, dieties of death, and undead creatures, is not on their skill list.
Again, this is a cool idea for a class, I love the fluff. If I were running a game and a player wanted to play one of these, I'd let them, and help work out the bugs in the class.
But still, mechanically, this doesn't feel quite finished, and doesn't feel like all of the options and mechanics included were played in an actual game before printing. I get the feeling I'd have to do less work to convert a 3.5 class like the Dread Necromancer or Dragon Compendium's Death Master to Pathfinder rules then I would have to do to make the Death Mage work in a game. Now, it might still be worth that effort - the Death Mage has some unique ideas and fluff to it, but there you go.
A stab in the dark:
If it is your intention to animate dead, you might want to check with your DM on if you will be required to be evil.
PLEASE, LET'S NOT HAVE THIS ARGUMENT AGAIN!!
*ahem*
Anyway, how about a wizard professor of necrobiology? You analyze and categorize the undead. You have a plethory of spells to control them or destroy them if necessary, and your understanding leads to throughly researching the applications of negative energy.
You could even bring in the old 2nd Ed healing(necromancy) theories as a possible avenue of research (using positive energy to counter necromantic effects).
And, of course, in the process of dabbling with things mortals were not meant to know, you could fall into corruption, seeking a perfection of unlife... (Corpsecrafter feats from Libris Mortis).
Sounds Lovecraftian!
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The Death Mage has some neat ideas, and is pretty cool overall, but there are some problems with it, even on my first glance through. In particular, Knowledge: Religion - the primary skill for knowledge of the after life, dieties of death, and undead creatures, is not on their skill list.
I'm glad you like the ideas behind the death mage, especially since we designed it to fulfill an arcane necromancer role.
Regarding Knowledge (religion) as a class skill: Death mages are an arcane class rather than a divine one, Knowledge (religion) covers a lot more than death-related issues, not having a skill as a class skill is only a 3-point difference in Pathfinder, and death mages receive "secrets of the dead" which allows them to add their class level to any death- or undeath-related Knowledge checks anyway. This is an intentional design choice, which in play allowed death mages to know as much about death as a cleric fully vested in Knowledge (religion) at no cost, and a death mage who decides to buy a few ranks knows more about it than any cleric of the same level.
Again, this is a cool idea for a class, I love the fluff.
But still, mechanically, this doesn't feel quite finished, and doesn't feel like all of the options and mechanics included were played in an actual game before printing.
Obviously only you can tell if the class works well in your campaigns. I can assure you the class was fully playtested, and we ran into no major mechanical issues we didn't fix. If you have other issues you'd like me to go over I'd be happy to. If not I can only chalk up your enjoyment of the background material as a partial win, and wish you luck in finding a class that does meet your needs. :D
Owen K.C. Stephens
Super Genius Games
I do have some more specific comments & feedback on the Death Mage, mostly positive but some negative, but it would probably take the thread a bit off topic. Do you already have a specific comments thread on this or another forum for the Death Mage? If not I'll start one on the 'compatible products' board after I get off of work this afternoon.
Ah, I found the thread for it in the 'compatible products' archive. I'll post some more extended thoughts there later on.
Well all of this looks good but i just noticed that a cleric can get animate dead as a 3rd level spell so would it be worth it to go for the cleric instead what with the channeling and things of that nature?
So i guess what i really am asking is which would be a better choice both fluff wise and character wise?
So i guess what i really am asking is which would be a better choice both fluff wise and character wise?
I'm going to make some basic assumptions. Please correct me if either of these are wrong.
1) This character will be involved in the usual brand of adventuring - join up with party, meet adventure hook, go to trap-filled dungeon, fight monsters grouped in encounter-sized chunks, get quest reward, repeat. If you're game has s different structure, such as 'gather and lead a rag-tag army to achieve independence from a tyranical ' or 'unravel urban mystery while navigating the subtle but none the less deadly political dangers of high society'
2) This Character will be adventuring with a party of mostly grey morality. Maybe they don't care quite as much about good vs. evil so long as they get paid. Or maybe they don't care about the methods as much so long as the ends achieved are worthy. In any event, the kind of party that won't have a problem with you doing necomancy-type things every once in a while, particularly at higher levels.
3) Your party doesn't have any gaping deficiencies. If you're playing with two barbarians, a bard, and a cleric, then you're much better off bringing a wizard. If you're playing with a bow-using fighter, a sorcerer, a monk, and a rogue, then you're probably going to contribute more as a Cleric. Both Clerics and Wizards can make good necromancers, so if your party has a glaring deficiency in arcane or divine magic, that should influence your choice.
So, all those things being stipulated, I would recommend a specialist wizard. Necromancy-leaning clerics will want to tend towards negative energy, for theme and for the Command Undead feat. However, doing so will cause them to give up a lot of their healing (because they can't channel to heal their living allies), spell casting (because they'll be forced to memorize cure spells), and fighting ability (because they'll have to burn a couple feats making their channel energy usable that could otherwise have gone into combat feats). Such a character can still be good and fun to play, and if you're party needs some divine casting then by all means go for it, but it's just enough of a self imposed handicap that if everything else is equal I'd choose wizard instead.
Necromancy-leaning sorcerers (and this also applies to oracles) can be fun, but many necromancy spells are situational or downtime spells, and sorcerers don't like burning spells known on such things. Plus the necromancy themed bloodline (and oracle focus as well) isn't all that great. Note that in a military campaign, or a campaign that allows the Leadership feat, these classes are much better, thanks to their high Charisma scores.
So, of the first party classes, that leaves wizards and witches. As I mentioned above, I'm far too intimidated by the ridiculously steep penalties for the loss of a familiar to be willing to recommend witches to anybody for any reason at this time, but if the penalties are reduced or done away with in the final printing of the AdvPG, or if the familiar is made considerably more durable, then it's certainly a class worth looking into.
For advice on crafting and playing wizards, I strongly recommend checking out Treantmonk's wizard guide. I think it was linked above (for some reason some of the above links have arbitrary spaces inserted into them, take the spaces out when you copy a link into your address bar).
For a necromancer in particular, though, there are a couple things worth noting. 1) You'll want a higher cha then other wizards, to take advantage of the 'command undead' feat. 2) You'll want to be sure to pick up Command Undead and Animate Dead when you get the chance.
Sample 1st level Wizard (specialist Necromancer)
Roderick Pale
"In time you will come to understand that the academic mindset requires one to set aside petty societal taboos. The pursuit of knowledge cannot be allowed to falter before the meaningless constraints of ethics, faith, or mortality."
Roderick Pale is young for a graduate of the Grey Academy, the first and foremost wizarding school of the land. This is in no small part to his primary choice of study. While all branches of magic are represented in the academy, necromancy attracts the fewest students. Due to the cultural taboos and imposed restrictios, the school of necromancy gains the least funding, the least attention, and has the fewest instructors.
Roderick was, in fact, the only student of his class to choose Necromancy as his primary course of study, and as such his lessons were conducted almost as the apprenticeships of a hedge mage, just him and his instructor, alone for hours poring over those few spellbooks and scraps of literature not outright banned by edict of the king. There Roderick learned his love of knowledge, and cultivated a deep seated belief that there is no evil in learning, though evil things could be done with it. Could not an evoker burn down an orphanage? Could not a Diviner invade the privacy of men, or undermine the safety of a nation through spying? Could not a conjurer open gates to deadly extraplanar realms? Does closing your eyes to an attacking ogre prevent it from smashing you to pieces?
Because of the one-on one nature of his teaching, and because of the artificially limited nature of the curriculum, Roderick graduated early, at which point he set out for a life of adventuring. If the known books of necromancy were forbidden to him, then he would seek out unknown books in lost and forgotten tombs. He would rediscover old lore, craft new spells, earn his fortune, and found his own school of wizardry, an academy that would advance knowledge for it's own sake, away from the close-minded superstitions of mortal society.
And so he did. In time, the school he founded would come to be known as the Bleak Academy, and in generations to come it would shape the destiny of the world through the graduates it produced.
Race: Human
Class: Wizard 1
Favored Class: Wizard, +1 HP/HD
Alignment: Neutral
Stats- 20 point buy
Str: 7
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 20 (including racial bonus)
Wis: 8
Cha: 12
Specialist School: Necromancy
Forbidden Schools: Enchantment & Evocation
Arcane Bond: Raven Familiar (eventually to be traded for an Imp or Quasit)
Feats:
- Scribe Scroll
- Improved Initiative
- Toughness
Skills, 1 rank each:
- Spellcraft
- Know: Arcana
- Know: Religion
- Know: the Planes
- Know: History
- Perception
- Linguistics
- Fly
Spellbook, level 0 spells
- all except for enchantment & evocation
Spellbook, level 1 spells
- Cause Fear (generally memorize 1)
- Color Spray (generally memorize 2)
- Mage Armor
- Protection from Evil
- Silent Image
- Feather Fall
- Identify
- Comprehend Languages
Equipment: standard adventurer's kit, spellbook, light crossbow, dagger, spell component pouch, alchemist fire.
Tactics: first level is ugly for wizards. If you see a cluster of enemies that look like they're vulnerable to mind-affecting spells, bust out a color spray. If you see a cluster of enemies that look like 1HD undead, bust out your channeled 'Command Undead' feat - one of them will probably fail the save and join your side. Otherwise, avoid melee like the plague and keep shooting your crossbow at unengaged enemies.
Note that all the level 0 and level 1 necromancy spells are just bad. You won't have any decent spells in your school until you get second level spells, including Blindness (a decent single target save or lose), False Life (a long lasting personal HP buff), and Command Undead (a situational spell, but extremely powerful if you encounter mindless undead). Just grin and bare it. Color Spray's still hot potatoes, so that should help you through.
Well thanks again Malisteen i very much appreciate it, but one thing i mention was what about a cleric, because he gets the animate dead spell a lot earlier and is slightly based on charisma?
Also another thing is fluff wise i might be able to take the death domain as well as the knowledge domain saying that in my studies i have found that death is a "perfection" and i begin to pursue it in a less direct way or something like that.
But with the wizard it is nice because just from what i am reading the wizard is much more to the point which being a first time spell caster it might be nice and easier on me then the cleric but i don't know for sure.
And last it seems that the cost of animating dead can get pretty lofty at higher levels so taking wizard might help me not spend so much GP.
So I'm trying to decide between cleric and wizard, tough choice to me, tell me what you think.
So I'm trying to decide between cleric and wizard, tough choice to me, tell me what you think.
I mention cleric above. A necromantic cleric generally wants to go with channel negative energy in order to access the command undead feat. This has a cascading negative effect on the cleric's build.
Because he channels negative energy, he can't use that ability to heal allies. To perform his basic role as a cleric, he must thus expend spell slots to do so (at least, until you can afford a wand of Cure Light Wounds).
Because he can't spontaneously cast cure spells, this means actually spending memorized slots on them, which is generally not the best way to go if you have other options.
Because you need to expend feats on your channel energy ability - at the very least the command undead feat and the feat that lets you exclude your allies from the burst effect, you're going to have fewer combat feats then a regular cleric, making you generally less buff in melee.
The character can still be good, and if you want to play a cleric go for it. Alternatively, you can forgo the 'command undead' feat and simply play a positive energy cleric who happens to memorize some necromancy spells and make some undead once in a while. Just be aware that a necromantic cleric gives up more as a cleric then a necromantic wizard gives up as a wizard, and getting early access to Animate Dead doesn't compensate for that, imo.
Sample first level cleric build, maxing out channel negative energy
Samuel Robin
All souls are born in darkness, and to darkness all souls return. Death is but the joyous restoration of the natural order. Those who have passed through that threshold and returned are prophets, and they testify to a future free from sadness, doubt, and regret. That future can be ours, if only we put aside our childish fears and embrace it.
Class: Cleric
Favored Class: Cleric (+1 Skill point)
Race: Human
Alignment: Neutral
Stats: 20 point buy
Str: 12
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 16, including racial bonus
Cha: 16
Domains:
- Death
- Darkness
Feats:
- Selective Channeling
- Command Undead
Skills:
- Know: Religion
- Intimidate
- Diplomacy
This character is something of a short range blaster, wading into combat and blasting out his channel negative. Against 1hd undead foes, he attempts to turn them against each other one at a time with the command undead feat. He memorizes cure spells in his first level slots to fix up the party some between combats, and will have to continue to do so until he can pick up a wand of cure light wounds, and finally start spending his spell slots on something else.
Later on, you'll be able to animate some undead, drop a darkness spell on combat, and wade in with your darkness domain ability to see anyway. Feat-wise you'll look to defensive options - heavy armor proficiency, toughness, etc. You might also look into feats that let you capitalize on your intimidate skill and stack it up on top of some of your fear spells.
Note that I am less familiar with clerics, and somebody else can probably recommend something that will work better.
Vendor - Fantasiapelit Tampere
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About necromancer, eh?
I'm going to do for COCT a necromancer-he is doctor. Well, more like back-alley doctor. I thought that necromancer would be goood for "doctor"-like career, but the Priest do that better. So, he is a fraud-doctor.But he thinks that he is a great doctor. And nothing is more scarier that a doctor that doestn know how to heal :D
Just my own two cents, but a couple of sourcebooks I haven't seen mentioned yet are White Wolf's Hollowfaust: City of Necromancers and Second Edition's Complete Necromancers Handbook. Both are out of print, but both are good references for someone wanting to play a Necromancer PC.
The CNH might be the better of the two, though it's rules are badly out of date of course, not just because it was the first D&D publication to treat Necromancers as a playable option and not just the villain of the week, but also because it's more comprehensive. Offering suggestions on playing scholars, doctor/surgeons, undead slayers, various types of clerics, and the good old fashioned mark I evil necromancer.
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Well thanks again Malisteen i very much appreciate it, but one thing i mention was what about a cleric, because he gets the animate dead spell a lot earlier and is slightly based on charisma?
Also another thing is fluff wise i might be able to take the death domain as well as the knowledge domain saying that in my studies i have found that death is a "perfection" and i begin to pursue it in a less direct way or something like that.
But with the wizard it is nice because just from what i am reading the wizard is much more to the point which being a first time spell caster it might be nice and easier on me then the cleric but i don't know for sure.
And last it seems that the cost of animating dead can get pretty lofty at higher levels so taking wizard might help me not spend so much GP.
So I'm trying to decide between cleric and wizard, tough choice to me, tell me what you think.
Cleric and wizard are both viable choices; either will make a decent PC.
If you go wizard, your focus should be more on directly targeted spells vs. your enemies, and less on commanding swarms of undead, so getting animate dead a little later won't be a huge deal. If you go cleric and channel negative energy, then although you won't be spontaneously converting spells to cure spells for your PC allies, you will be spontaneously converting to inflict spells, which is handy for spot healing of your undead companions.
Which way you go should really depend on (a) what you want your primary focus to be (scourging enemies with your magic or commanding undead legions); and (b) what your fellow PCs and DM will let you get away with.
Which way you go should really depend on (a) what you want your primary focus to be (scourging enemies with your magic or commanding undead legions); and (b) what your fellow PCs and DM will let you get away with.
I disagree. The more I look at it, the more I've come to believe that Wizard and even Sorcerer in pathfinder are better lords of the undead legions then clerics are. They may not get Animate Dead as soon, but the Command Undead spell is simply far superior to the 'command undead' feat when it comes to controlling more undead. Yes, the cleric can heal their undead, but if that's your concern then you can restrict yourself to self healing 'Bloody Skeletons'.
The problem I have with clerical necromancers in Pathfinder is that they just give up too much as a cleric. Channel positive energy is a better ability then turn undead was, and Channel negative energy isn't as much of an improvement, while costing more feats just to be usable - feats that a cleric really wants to be spending on other things (like armor proficiencies, and combat casting, and so on).
If you channel positive energy instead, then you lose access to the 'command undead' feat, and since you don't have the spell either you're basically giving up most adventuring use of the Create Undead spells, as limited as such might be.
Basically, while both neg.en. clerics and necro.spec. wizards can be good characters, and can be good at using undead, negen clerics simply aren't as good at their job of being a cleric as a necrospec wizard is at their job of being a wizard.
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As a Necromancer, alignment is not a problem. You may want to steer away from the Evil spells anyway though. Creating zombies/skeletons isn't going to go over well with the Good Guys and some of the Bad guys.
You could use your magic against undead. Fighting fire with fire so to speak. Being able to counterspell the bad Necromancer's spells well be real useful, and turning undead against eachother(with command undead) can saves lives.
What happens if you are animating dead monsters or humanoids- goblins, orcs, bugbears, etc.....instead of civilized beings-elves, dwarves, humans, etc.....
I had a plan on doing exactly that as a necromancer PC.
What happens if you are animating dead monsters or humanoids- goblins, orcs, bugbears, etc.....instead of civilized beings-elves, dwarves, humans, etc.....
I had a plan on doing exactly that as a necromancer PC.
Generally not a problem, so long as you don't bring them back to town with you.
Avoid humanoids, though. They generally have little in the way of natural attacks, racial hit dice, or raw stats, which are what you're looking for in animated dead. What you want are giants, outsiders, magical beasts, dragons, that sort of thing, particularly those with powerful natural attacks, plentiful hit die, and high strength and dex scores. Reach is nice too. Also, anything with an elemental subtype, particularly fire, as the dead you create will retain the associated elemental immunity.
Well i think i have decided on the wizard with the necromancer school and for race i feel human is a good one. Last the story i put together with my character has to be directly connected to a "job" in the adventure path we will be running (King Maker). The only thing left is to actually build the character and have him set up for up to level 16.
For stats such as abilities i think it will be 20 points but at this point i don't know yet also since later on in the game i will be needing to save up for animate dead what kind of things should i get that will help.
Thank you again, if you have suggestions please put them up like i said other people might want to know as well.
Since you're already a necromancer, would you consider becoming a lich? I would suggest getting the Craft Wonderous Item feat. Any template needs permission with the DM though.
Since you're already a necromancer, would you consider becoming a lich? I would suggest getting the Craft Wonderous Item feat. Any template needs permission with the DM though.
A) If you're making a new character, this isn't something you'll have to worry about for a long, long time, due to the caster level pre-req of even becoming a lich.
B) for a PC, the benefits of the lich template are generally not worth the caster progression loss inherent in the template's level adjustment. At least, from a mechanics/optimization route.
C) Liches are cool. If you're DM lets you become one, consider it, anyway.
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Side note: I was being overly (and frankly, inaccurately) harsh to the Death Mage when I said it would require more reworking then a 3.5 class. The options I have problems with are actually pretty limited and can be avoided by just taking other options. The fluff is nice. It's 3rd party, but if your DM allows such things it's certainly worth a look. There are some design choices I still question... But then again, there are design choices about the core classes that I also find questionable, so that's neither here nor there.
Mack - is the character starting at level 16, or are you planning on playing up to that point? Also, do you own any of the following 3.5 products, and if so, is your DM willing to convert any material from them:
- Libris Mortis
- Heroes of Horror
- Draconomicon
- Spell Compendium
- Dragon Compendium
- Unearthed Arcana
- Complete Arcane
Also, would your DM be willing to allow material from the following 3rd party Pathfinder products:
- The Genius Guide to the Death Mage
If your DM is open to such items, then take a look at the following classes before finalizing your choice for wizard:
Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror) - spontaneous casting from entire highly themed spell list, cha based arcane caster, ability to fully heal all your undead for free between combats, damage reduction and undead immunities. Fluffy, fun, and easy - they're largely self contained, it's hard to build one wrong, even if they aren't as strong as an optimized wizard or sorcerer (not necessarily a bad thing, balance wise). Easy to convert to Pathfinder.
Death Master (3.5ed Dragon Compendium) - Int based prepared casting from a spellbook with a themed spell list. Undead servant similar to animal companion right from first level, access to Animate Dead as a second level spell at 3rd level.
Death Mage (genius guide to the Death Mage): cha based prepared caster with themed spell list and abilities, including options for control of a skeletal champion at 12th level or a vampire at 16th level, with all the chain control army madness that the latter implies. Very cool class, it's grown on me as I've looked more at it. 3rd party pathfinder material so your DM wouldn't have to adjust skills and the like, but just as banned as all the 3.5 stuff in a core only game.
Wizard Specialist Variant (Unearthed Arcana): you don't even have to buy this one: It's in the 3.5 SRD. The other necromancy variants aren't all that hot, imo. I mean, the stronger undead one's kind of nice, but if your DM lets you take the Corpse Crafter feat from Libris Mortis that's the same effect for much, much lower cost. But anyway, the skeletal minion one's pretty neat, if only for the ability to have an undead servant right from level 1. It's not really better then the arcane bond ability it would be replacing, but it's not all that much worse, either, so long as you buy your extra buddy some decent gear as you level, and can really help you play to your theme at low levels.
If your DM allows this, You might talk to her about letting you use a burning skeleton by treating your wizard level as 1 lower, or a bloody skeleton by treating your wizard level as 2 lower, or something like that. Or she might just let you use a bloody or burning skeleton right from the start, since skeletons were a little better in 3.5 to begin with (d12 HD instead of D8, and all).
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Other then that, Libris Mortis has the Corpse Crafter feats, the Pale Master PrC, and the Necropolitan template that you might want to take a look at. The Draconomicon has the skeleton dragon and zombie dragon templates. Complete Arcane has the spell-stitched template. The Spell Compendium has a number of useful spells, particularly Awaken Undead, Revive Undead, and Plague of Undead.
What I recommend would depend in no small part on whether or not you had access to the above options.
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And yeah, are you starting at 16th level, or playing up to 16th level? And if its the latter, what level are you starting at? For a high level build it makes a huge difference whether you had to be playable all along the way or not.
B) for a PC, the benefits of the lich template are generally not worth the caster progression loss inherent in the template's level adjustment. At least, from a mechanics/optimization route.
Actually, nix this. With the way level adjustment currently works in pathfinder, a lich is only going to lose a single level of caster progression (instead of the 4 that you lost in 3.5), and the lich benefits are totally worth it, imo.
That said, most DMs aren't going to let you become a lich, due to alignment and PC balance appropriateness concerns.
If your DM is inclined to allow it, be sure to stock up on some disguise ability, whether through skills or spells. You'll probably need both, frankly, and fortunately you're cha will be ok. You'll need it to hide your undead nature from npcs.
Anyway, add the Lich template to the list of things I'd like to know whether your DM allows you access to before giving more specific build advice.
Malisteen you had some questions and we have just figured out who is DMing and he had some answers. For one thing we start at lvl 1 and going to lvl 16 or higher.
Also were only using the pathfinder society rules and the new prestige classes coming out. So i guess that means no 3.5 converting unless it is pathfinder society approved conversion.
Last the're are 2 races that we can use including the primary races. One is the Tiefling and the other is the Aasimar.
And here are some other things:
*Character creation and play as per Pathfinder Society.
*PCs must have some motivation for contributing to the establishment of a kingdom.
*New or replacement PCs come in at three quarters of APL; e.g. 6th at APL 8th.
*Leadership feat is available but subject to my approval.
*Magic item creation feats are available for play.
*Plan on advancing to 16th level or higher.
*We will use aging effects; plan on five years between books.
*Humans, half-orcs, and tieflings will reach middle-age in second half of campaign.
*Training for advancement will occupy some off-time; we will role-play some of this.
*Obtaining harder to find magic items will occupy some off-time as well.
*The dominant alignment of the campaign is CN - Brevoy, River Kingdoms, Galt, and Numeria. The closest power center for Law and Good is Mendev. The Abadar faith is another keystone for Law in this area.
*Proficiency with the Aldori dueling sword (see Campaign Setting) allows it to
be used in the Duelist prestige class.
*Duration of Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally spells are minutes/level in
this campaign.
Good enough. I have one more important question, since your campaign is using some society rules.
In Pathfinder Society, undead created or controlled by whatever means are lost between adventures. Will this be the case in your game? If so, it makes a pretty big difference.
Well as you know already it is the AP King Maker and from what i know,they will be able to adventure with me for as long as they live. But there is years between each book supposedly.
So other then that i can get back to you on the official answer but that is the answer for the moment.