Kaisoku |
I'm not sure if the premise is valid. There's a really good thread about Humans a little while ago, that had a great example of why Humans are good.
They listed every single class, and what races were good at playing that class. The Human was always a choice.
If you have to always decide "Should I be <X> Race or Human", then the race is doing very well for itself.
.
However, in the spirit of giving ideas, I've been thinking of letting them have an extra Trait, or alternatively one specific weapon proficiency. Not limited to martial (since Human Fighters would be meh), so they can pick up Net or something to indicate a regional thing (maybe they were from a fishing village, etc).
Kaisoku |
Could I get a link to that thread, please? I don't think I saw it.
I tried looking through the archives, but couldn't find the specific thread/post that had the classes vs races listed. I'm not sure if it was a thread from the Beta/Alpha forums, so I'm not sure if I can link to it exactly.
Basically, the point was that you look at each class (or class role if you are getting into multiclassing or prestige classes), and determine what races would be good choices for that character.
Since Humans have a +2 to any stat of their choice, a skillpoint for anything, a floating feat, and a guaranteed favored class, they can be built to be favorable for practically any character concept.
Now, they don't get those specific abilities, like the Caster Level bonus an Elf gets for being a wizard, so he might not be "the best choice" all the time. However, it doesn't seem to matter what character concept you are going for, the Human (and to a slightly lesser extent, the Half Elf and Half Orc) is always a viable choice.
Grey Lensman |
The only change my group has made to humans is to give them weapon familiarity with the bastard sword, but that was due more to the fact that we had trouble seeing the classic knight's weapon as something that you needed to spend a feat to use. If dwarves get the waraxe and elves get the thinblade, then we figured humans could get the bastard sword.
Aratex |
The only change my group has made to humans is to give them weapon familiarity with the bastard sword, but that was due more to the fact that we had trouble seeing the classic knight's weapon as something that you needed to spend a feat to use. If dwarves get the waraxe and elves get the thinblade, then we figured humans could get the bastard sword.
I really like that change.. I may end up stealing it for my own games. It has always bothered me to have to burn a feat to use the bastard sword correctly. I'll run this past my group and see how it goes over.
Hunterofthedusk |
See, I see the humans like so-
Rather than getting skill bonuses, they just get more skills.
Rather than getting racial proficiencies or other such things, they get a bonus feat (which very well might be used for a bastard sword), and-
Rather than getting set racial bonuses to attributes, they get one variable racial bonus.
Most of my characters end up being human just because of the sheer versatility. With more skill ranks, a variable stat boost, and an extra feat, it becomes very easy to build nearly anything that I want. Conversely, the other races all fill niches of their own. Dexterous and intelligent characters with good perception, night or day? Elves. Tough and wise craftsmen with remarkable resistance to spells and poisons? Dwarves. Every other race is good at being a few classes, bad with a few, and average with the rest. Dwarves make good clerics, druids, fighters, barbarians, and even monks, but are relatively bad Bards and Sorcerers.
Michael Suzio |
I don't see humans in the rules being anything but the best overall race. A human can fit into any class, no problem, and exactly tailor his stats, feats, and skills to suit (having bonuses in all those areas). I see zero reason they would need to be tweaked at all.
Other races are competitive, of course -- however, they're going to be best suited to some more limited range of character concepts.
Lokai |
bonus feat>everything else, humans are and have remained absolute BEST choice for any class and will remain as such untill bonus feat is removed. I've considered house ruleing bonus feat removed and replaced but never figured just what to give them in place of that amazing feat would, not make them crappy. Just an example is the amazing 3 feats a fighter gets at level 1 just because they are human(i think remains in PF ugg to lazy to pop my book open). No humans aren't weakest race by a long shot in fact, i feel there strongest race of base races by a mile! problem i have is that i dislike humans yet always feel not getting bonus feat so rehabilitating to what ever build i am doing.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
Caineach |
Personally, I think humans are the best race with but a few exceptions.
Arcane Casters; Elves get a huge bonus to being a caster thanks to overcoming SR and +2 int. More of a class specific bonus than I particularly like. Gnome Illusionist and Bards are the same, only moreso.
Inquisitors: I just can't think of good 1st lvl feats for these guys.
I personally think dwarf, orc, and halfelf got the short end of the sticks, but am willing to play all of them.
Twin Agate Dragons |
Twin Agate Dragons wrote:Extra Feat = great fortitude, Extra Skill Point/level = SurvivalCubed64 wrote:aside from racial traits though, humans are everywhere and fit in very well in any environment.Well, not any environment, what about Fort saves vs. extreme temperatures?
Great Fortitude helps, but they still have to make saves at regular intervals. A Natural 1 is all it takes to fail the roll.
MisterSlanky |
Personally, I think humans are the best race with but a few exceptions.
Arcane Casters; Elves get a huge bonus to being a caster thanks to overcoming SR and +2 int. More of a class specific bonus than I particularly like. Gnome Illusionist and Bards are the same, only moreso.Inquisitors: I just can't think of good 1st lvl feats for these guys.
I personally think dwarf, orc, and halfelf got the short end of the sticks, but am willing to play all of them.
I don't think humans are the strongest, but I do think they're not the bottom of the barrel.
While I think the Elf bonus for arcane casters is nice, I think the bonus feat is pretty significant (heck, it can be taken on spell penetration to get the same benefit of an elf if that's what you're looking for).
Now that I've seen how the inquisitor works, I think that while the do struggle on the 1st level feat front, a human inquisitor can work very well if you're going for a ranged build. Inquisitors are VERY feat hungry, and being able to take both point plank and precise shot right off the bat is nice. Additionally, improved initiative is utterly fantastic for an inquisitor (the one I rolled up cannot roll any lower than an 11 on his initiative check). Those extra feats go a long way to helping fill gaps to make an already strong class stronger.
Half-Elves get two prestige classes, which has been significant for the people who want to play multi-classes. They get enough small bonuses to make them very viable and they can still pull off that extra HP or SP a level even with two classes.
Overall I'd say they did a nice job (though I am finding more people in my groups going half-elf than human these days).
Leaf the Nymph |
Our group allows human to be proficient with a weapon of their choice, if they get martial weapon prof., then they may choose an exotic, non-race weapon for free.
I really like to ability for half-elves to have two favored classes.
Before the game was "Pathfinderized" I never played a human, there was no desire to do so.
Caineach |
I feel a new race coming on.
Altered human
mutated animal
sentient plant
Live metal
Sorry I could not resist!
My GM's (Loopy's) campaign already has them here's a link
SmiloDan RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
Elves get a virtual extra skill point through their Int boost, and a whole bunch of other stuff that way outweighs a bonus feat (one of which is Spell Penetration, another is 4 or 5 weapon proficiencies (4 or 5 feats), etc. etc.
I think it would be neat if humans could pick an extra class skill at character creation.
Where are the rules for traits? It sounds like getting an extra one of those would also make sense.
Caineach |
Elves get a virtual extra skill point through their Int boost, and a whole bunch of other stuff that way outweighs a bonus feat (one of which is Spell Penetration, another is 4 or 5 weapon proficiencies (4 or 5 feats), etc. etc.
I think it would be neat if humans could pick an extra class skill at character creation.
Where are the rules for traits? It sounds like getting an extra one of those would also make sense.
Except Humans can get both that extra skill point form int and one from racial. Weapon profficiencies aren't important feats, though nice on a few classes. Their spell penetration is worthles for many characters. Then they take a hit to their con. Elves are better for casters. I'm not argueing against that. I'm just saying they don't beat out human accross the board, and I would take a feat over the elven special abilities for most of my characters.
David Fryer |
Twin Agate Dragons wrote:Extra Feat = great fortitude, Extra Skill Point/level = SurvivalCubed64 wrote:aside from racial traits though, humans are everywhere and fit in very well in any environment.Well, not any environment, what about Fort saves vs. extreme temperatures?
Okay, smarty pants, what about underwater? :)
seekerofshadowlight |
Hunterofthedusk wrote:Okay, smarty pants, what about underwater? :)Twin Agate Dragons wrote:Extra Feat = great fortitude, Extra Skill Point/level = SurvivalCubed64 wrote:aside from racial traits though, humans are everywhere and fit in very well in any environment.Well, not any environment, what about Fort saves vs. extreme temperatures?
That be the same templet sea elves get
LazarX |
Personally, I think humans are the best race with but a few exceptions.
Arcane Casters; Elves get a huge bonus to being a caster thanks to overcoming SR and +2 int. More of a class specific bonus than I particularly like. Gnome Illusionist and Bards are the same, only moreso.
The Elven stat bonus to spellcasting only applies to Int Based casters like Wizards. A Human can have the bonus to the spellcasting stat of her CHOICE.
David Fryer |
David Fryer wrote:That be the same templet sea elves getHunterofthedusk wrote:Okay, smarty pants, what about underwater? :)Twin Agate Dragons wrote:Extra Feat = great fortitude, Extra Skill Point/level = SurvivalCubed64 wrote:aside from racial traits though, humans are everywhere and fit in very well in any environment.Well, not any environment, what about Fort saves vs. extreme temperatures?
True, however Cubed64 seemed to be talking about a human without any templates. Unless there is a feat that lets you take a template that I don't know about.
Thalin |
Humans are my default; simply put, I heart feat flexibility and the "one in any" is too great to pass up.
Halflings are good bards, and mounted pallys; gnomes make good sorcerers specialized in illusions; dwarves make OK clerics (probably the worst race), elves are awesome wizards and rogues. I'm not a fan of the two half-races, though Darkvision can be a good enough feat to warrant half-orc
But since I'm a feat hoar, humans are mine. And in PFS, I see far more humans than anything else.
Better thread would be "how to fix Dwarves and Gnomes" :).
Majuba |
I didn't see it above, so here's the link to the old forum (warning, it started in March 09, during Beta time).
Why Play Anything But A Human?
To me, Humans have the most "build" versatility, but the fewest "powers". I think they also tend to be better when you roll your stats, since that +2 can go right where you need it (possibly just bumping a low one), whereas with point-buy the double +2's can be handy and very well planned for.