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If a lich polymorphs into a dragon, which lich racial abilities are kept and which disappear? After reading the polymorph school rules, it's not really clear. Abilities based off of body obviously disappear, but are the lich's abilities (DR, touch attacks, fear aura, etc.) based on form or not?
Also, what happens to hit points for Constitution? A lich has no Constitution score and gains bonus hit points from its Charisma. When polymorphed into a dragon, is the lich temporarily considered to be alive and thus have a Constitution score (with a +8 bonus)? Does polymorph even change creature type?
In general, how does polymorph interact with non-standard creatures types such as undead?
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The Lich's type becomes 'Dragon', it loses all Undead special qualities pretty much that are Extraordinary(Ex) or Supernatural(Su) in nature retaining to its original form and gains any new listed abilities under the 'Form Of The Dragon' spells. This new type means the Liche loses any weakess to Favored Enemy (Undead)/Bane Weapons/Channeling it previously had as well but it gains vulnerability to Bane Weapons/Favored Enemy (Dragon) and such Dragon-specific related abilities.
That being said the Liche has two considerations - Undead cant be affected by Polymorph spells normally but the Liche IS an exception to this. But the Liche STILL retains its ability bonuses granted from being a Liche, as well as the fact its soul is stored in a receptacle (which means in Dragon form if it died it would regenerate as a Lich normally would, by its Phylactery whereever that is - this ability is independant of its physical form regardless what it is at the time and is granted by the Phlactery itself). Whereas for the Constitution score, it should be noted what the Lich's Constitution score WAS before it was undead, use that score and apply the Polymorph bonus granted by the form BUT you still retain your former HP (based on Charisma for the Lich), it only really affects its FORT save and any Extraordinary abilities the Dragon gains that are Constitition based like the Breath Weapon (which it gains with the form spell).
I hope this helps.
For what the Lich should lose, I would say that the rules are pretty loose about this. I would suggest that, as GM, you take off what you think should be lost during the transformation. It should go if you don't think it belongs on the current form in my opinion.
If I was deciding, I would say that the lich would generally lose the following: darkvision 60 ft., DR 15/bludgeoning and magic, immunity to cold and electricity, fear aura, and negative energy touch attack along with paralyzing touch.
If I were having it use form of the dragon though, I would let it keep the fear aura just because I would feel it would mesh well with dragons getting frightful presence.
I don't believe that the lich's type changes by the rules, although I think that is would be reasonable safe to rule that effect.
Undead polymorphing is odd for me (like the example lich and vampires as well). I don't believe that they regain their Constitution score through this magic. I believe that if a Lich or a Vampire transforms into an animal shape, then they are still hurt by positive energy and healed by negative energy. This is partly because of my interpretation of the way polymorph works, the fact that I find undead changing into undead forms to be cool, and the fact that restoring the Constitution score after you removed it is very annoying.
Also, I don't believe the breath weapon gain through form of the dragon has a DC modified by Constitution. I think that the DC is equal to the DC of the form of the dragon spell instead.
Problem is, if a Lich's type doesnt change (which it says it does if you read the Polymorph subsection of the spellcasting chapter on page 211-212 of the Core Rulebook) then it remains Undead in whatever form it takes...
That creates a raft of unique problems if thats the case, Lich's look clearly undead, even with a +20 Disguise bonus (as noted under the Polymorph subschool on page 211-212) they 'look' like the creature but are not truly like the creature. In that case it'd still be Undead and still possess the Extraordinary/Supernatural abilities of a Liche if that were the case.
Dont get me wrong, the Fear Aura ability makes sense for the "Form Of The Dragon" spell but look at "Form Of The Dragon III", that specifically grants "Frightful Presence" as one of the gained abilities - this isnt granted by the earlier forms of the spell.
Vampires mostly pass for normal on inspection whereas a Lich on average looks like a rotting bag of bones or a corpse wrapped in rags. Vampires can pass undetected more or less among mortals with minimal effort, whereas Lich's need some disguise and/or magical effects to hide his corpse-like visage.
The DC's for the Breath Weapon and such are based on those given by the spell, so in that regard your right.
As for hitpoints, you retain your old HP score, but without a CON score you'd be considered Undead still. A Lich was once a living, breathing creature - it makes sense if it is to adopt the form of a living creature for it to assume its old Constitution score and apply the listed bonus as granted by the spell. This doesnt grant extra hitpoints, its only factored into the FORTITUDE saving throw which ordinarilly is poor for Undead, but as a living creature (albeit this form is temporarily) its now vulnerable to the ravages that can afflict living creatures normally. Thats pretty much how the spell is written.
Ravingdork - good question. Fear, DR etc are pure DM calls, really, as the Polymorph section says. Constitution stays at nothing, I think. Reasoning below.
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Princess, where are you reading that polymorph spells change one's type? I can't see that anywhere, but I might be missing it. Edit: I don't see this on p211-212.
If you do change type, that's useful for eg a druid who wishes to gain immunity to Charm Person/Hold Person...though it then renders him vulnerable to Charm/Hold Animal. It also means that said druid (or lich) should really gain all type strengths and weaknesses, in addition to those listed in a particular spell entry. All of which seems wrong.
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My reading is that you don't change type. The lich may assume the form of a dragon, but he's still Undead (Augmented Humanoid). He gains exactly what the particular spell and the polymorph entry give him.
- So, a lich who cast Form of the Dragon 1 would gain the following:
1) +4 Str. Effectively no +2 Con (see 'Retains' below)
2) +4 NAC
3) Fly 60' (poor)
4) Darkvision 60'
5) breath weapon
6) resistance to one element
7) 5 natural attacks and proficiency therein
8) +20 on Disguise checks to appear as a dragon
- It would lose the following (but some of these are certainly subject to DM calling, as the Polymorph entry says; these are really just how I'd call them):
1) Its basic touch attack, since this is a natural attack
2) Its Paralyzing Touch, if this is a Supernatural ability that "Depends on your form"
3) Deflection and natural AC bonusses (Su and body-based Ex, I'd say)
4) DR. All DR is Supernatural. Of the two types of DR given ("Natural healing" and "Tough hide or body") I'd say Bludgeoning is bony-body-based, and Magic natural healing for the lich, but both could be construed as perks of bodily lich-hood. DM call, certainly - you could have it retain DR/Magic but lose DR/Bludgeoning.
- It would retain the following (DM calls again):
1) Rejuvenation: this is Supernatural, but tied up with soul rather than body - so it doesn't "Depend on your form." Therefore the lich keeps its phylactery
2) No Constitution score - this is an aspect of the Undead type, which I think the lich retains. It isn't the same as Zero Con. It's a complete absence of Constitution, so +2 Con makes no odds. As per the Undead type, any special ability that normally works off Con continues to work off the lich's Charisma - "Such as when calculating a breath weapon's DC." Its hit points are unchanged by Form of the Dragon 1.
3) All other undead traits not Ex or Su and dependent on bodily form - immunity to mind effects, nonlethal damage, ability drain, exhaustion, fatigue, poison, stunning, most Fort save effects, etc.; negative energy heal/positive energy damage; simple weapon proficiency. Does it retain the ability to go without food or air? By the book, yes. That one I'd probably houserule as a DM. I'd do the same with a Warforged druid who assumed beast shape. Definitely a houserule, though.
4) Life Sight (class ability)
5) Channel Resistance: Extraordinary, but I don't think dependent on form.
6) Fear Aura - body-dependent? I think not, but a close DM call. Fun to keep in for a dragon disguise.
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So, short answer to Ravingdork: No Constitution score, and breath works off Charisma; base touch attack lost; Paralyzing Touch probably lost; DR and fear entirely DM calls.
It mentions the change of type in Page 211-212, stating "Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific TYPE, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor"
Also it says halfway down the page on 212, "When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin TYPE, your gear melds into your body."
-Those two points clearly illustrate you change your Form because you adopt the TYPE of the creature you assume-
As for the powers you lose/keep, it states at the bottom of 212 "When under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose ALL extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent and darkvision) and well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those abilities that allow you to add class features (such as Sorcerors that can 'grow' claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form MIGHT restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by your new form."
That means if both forms possess the same ability, you keep it - otherwise it should be lost unless its Spellike (Sp) in nature with a few exceptions for Supernatural abilities like the Lich's Rejuvenation.
And as I stated before, Form Of The Dragon III grants Frightful Presence whereas versions I and II do not - adding Fear Aura of a Lich to it while logical isnt legal, that ability is entirely a Lich's domain (it works differently for a start than a Dragons Frightful Presence).
And if the Lich doesnt gain a Constitution score by turning into a Dragon, then the creature is NOT a Dragon, its still Undead and vulnerable to everything that affects Undead beings (as well as possessing the beings immunties). But in addition, the assumed form would LOOK Undead (and would register as 'Undead', a Disguise attempt doesnt hide the fact it IS Undead, only that it passes for a member of that race - in this case, a Dragon) if the being had a Constitution of 0 - Vampires are one of the few Undead that maintain some semblence of life about them as mentioned in their entry. Ontop of this, creatures DONT gain anything not listed under the spell description as would be normal for the creatures type - so you dont gain any extra advantages over those listed.
It mentions the change of type in Page 211-212, stating "Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific TYPE, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor"
That means you that you must pick a creature of a specific type depending on the spell. For instance, Beast Shape II requires you to pick an a creature of the animal type. Nothing in that text implies that your base type changes. In fact, that was a big intentional change of the PF polymorph spells versus 3.5.
Also it says halfway down the page on 212, "When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin TYPE, your gear melds into your body."
No, that's just saying if you polymorph into creatures of that type, your gear melds into your body. You still don't lose your base type.
Here's an example of 3.5 saying you actually gain the creature's type:
The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.
That's pretty clear q:
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If a lich polymorphs into a dragon, which lich racial abilities are kept and which disappear? After reading the polymorph school rules, it's not really clear. Abilities based off of body obviously disappear, but are the lich's abilities (DR, touch attacks, fear aura, etc.) based on form or not?
Also, what happens to hit points for Constitution? A lich has no Constitution score and gains bonus hit points from its Charisma. When polymorphed into a dragon, is the lich temporarily considered to be alive and thus have a Constitution score (with a +8 bonus)? Does polymorph even change creature type?
In general, how does polymorph interact with non-standard creatures types such as undead?
A lich is an acquired template -- you have to make the phylactery yourself (with Craft Wonderous Item), have a caster level of 11 or higher, etc.
The only extraordinary and supernatural abilities that disappear are those closely connected with the form of the creature. For instance, an undead creature has darkvision. A dragon has wings. A dog has a sensitive nose (and thus the scent ability).
The fear aura and the paralyzing touch are not connected to the physical form of the creature. They're properties of being a lich. A dragon might lose his wings if he polymorphs, so he can't fly. A dog may lose his sensitive nose, therefore he can't use the scent ability. A lich is fearsome (fear aura) because he's a lich -- polymorph doesn't bring you back to life and end your relationship with your phylactery. Likewise, the paralyzing touch doesn't depend on a specific physical element of the lich's form.
The DR might indeed be tied to the creature's form (bludgeoning implies a skeletal form). Furthermore, the touch attack by a lich is considered a natural weapon, so you'd lose that weapon when you convert to dragon form.
A lich isn't considered to be alive when he polymorphs. You gain no bonus HP from Constitution -- in fact you don't gain any bonus Constitution.
The lich still remains undead. Otherwise he's not a lich.
That's my basic reading too. And a minimalist approach to physical-form-linked abilities is probably a good idea, as Meabolex says.
Princess, I can see where you're coming from, but if type were to change, it'd be much clearer - as it used to be. It's a nice change, actually. It simplifies the process a fair bit, and prevents some real awkwardness.
Undead looking like undead in dragon form - well, he doesn't. He looks like a dragon - more or less. There's nothing to suggest that he has bits of scale hanging off of him, though the +20 Disguise isn't perfect; maybe his eyes still glow with cold corpselight.
No type change is actually pretty clear. Much less clear are what you do with eg DR types, or AC bonusses, but the Polymorph section does make clear that DM adjudication is called for, and this is a case where it is.
If a lich polymorphs into a dragon, which lich racial abilities are kept and which disappear? After reading the polymorph school rules, it's not really clear. Abilities based off of body obviously disappear, but are the lich's abilities (DR, touch attacks, fear aura, etc.) based on form or not?
Also, what happens to hit points for Constitution? A lich has no Constitution score and gains bonus hit points from its Charisma. When polymorphed into a dragon, is the lich temporarily considered to be alive and thus have a Constitution score (with a +8 bonus)? Does polymorph even change creature type?
In general, how does polymorph interact with non-standard creatures types such as undead?
As far as the lich's abilities, that'd be up to the DM, I'd think. As a lich, you are Undead. As a polymorphed lich, you're still Undead. At no point does your actual type change.
Use stats for a dracolich. :)
Or just follow mea's advice.
Speaking of, I cannot seem to find a dracolich in any of the new pathfinder books... any suggestions aside from conversion of 3.5?
I've already done that once, just kind of curious
Speaking of, I cannot seem to find a dracolich in any of the new pathfinder books... any suggestions aside from conversion of 3.5?
I've already done that once, just kind of curious
You don't need stats for a dracolich in Pathfinder. The lich template can be applied to any spellcaster now, including dragons (similar changes have been made to other acquired templates, like vampire).
Ah. thanks
I was hoping to get some FAQ support for this question. I've waited long enough for my answer.
I was hoping to get some FAQ support for this question. I've waited long enough for my answer.
It seems like if you got a FAQ for this, we would need a FAQ for every ability and whether or not it stays with you during a polymorph. If only special abilities had keywords to let us know these things :)
Uhm, yeah. My own personal method of doing this.
Lich takes form of a Kitten.
Assume the Kitten was a valid base to apply the Lich Template to.
Any abilities the Lich has that the Kittylich doesn't, go away.
Any abilities that the Kitten has that aren't in the polymorph spell, and aren't on the Lich, aren't on the Polymorphed Kittylich. Any abilities the Kitty has, that the kittylich doesn't, and are on the polymorph spell, are on the polymorphed kittylich.
Done. Easy, and keeps things simple as to what is dependent on the lich's form. Because anything a template applies to both the lich, and the thing he's turning into, aren't dependent on the form, they are dependent on the template. Ergo, since the polymorph is not removing the template, they stay.
Lich has claws.
Kittylich has claws.
Polymorphed Kittylich has claws.
Lich has regen.
Kittylich has regen.
Polymorphed Kittylich has regen.
Lich doesn't have scent.
Kitty has scent.
Kittylich doesn't have scent.
Polymorph spell has scent.
Pollymorphed Kittylich has scent.
Lich doesn't have pounce.
Kitty has pounce.
Kittylich has pounce.
Polymorphed Kittylich has pounce.
Lich isn't cute.
Kitty is cute.
Kittylich isn't cute.
Polymorphed Kittylich is... yeah you get the idea.
I have a hard time seeing that an undead caster would be able to polymorph into anything living. They are a focus for negative energy, they lack metabolism, their bodies are dead. None of this is stuff they can change. Now, certainly they could change into a similarly undead version of another creature - is it wrong that this could be a major strength of the undead? A lich polymorphed into a dragon with the lich template added on would keep the lich special abilities such as phylactery, paralyzing touch, and so on.
I have a hard time seeing that an undead caster would be able to polymorph into anything living. They are a focus for negative energy, they lack metabolism, their bodies are dead. None of this is stuff they can change. Now, certainly they could change into a similarly undead version of another creature - is it wrong that this could be a major strength of the undead? A lich polymorphed into a dragon with the lich template added on would keep the lich special abilities such as phylactery, paralyzing touch, and so on.Vampires can change into wolves as a standard ability. I wonder if that's explained properly in any of paizo's vampire books. The bestiary doesn't say much (basically = Beast Shape II with no elaboration), but presumably a vampire as wolf is still an undead creature and it doesn't suddenly have its undead life force replaced with a living life force but just changes its outward appearance.
Polymorph spells do not suppress or alter type. A vampire in wolf form is still undead.
The thing with polymorph spells and abilities based on form is that the CRB already says those things are squarely in the purview of the individual GM. I don't see any FAQ coming in on this.