I've seen some eidolon builds in the boards that surprised me. Does someone know a way to build a 20th lvl eidolon(medium and without tentacles or other things) in a way it's power remains considerable?
The players in my game favor companion concepts that can walk with them trough cities and narrow spaces. I've tried to build an angel-like medium eidolon, but I believe it was unsuccessful.
Spell Like abilities are the way to go. You can get some abilities that would work well for a gish type and give it to your eidolon for great effect, as well as access spells that your summoner doesn't have access to. You can also afford stuff like fast healing and damage reduction more easily.
If multiple arms are available (you said medium and no tentacles, so not sure how yuo feel bout an extra pair of arms and such) you can pile on some multiple attacks.
Or, alternatively (or in concert with), go the Bite route. Give him two (or four) arms with appropriate weapons and use evolutions to beef up the bite. Give it reach, extra damage, poison and all that and you have a medium creature who can fit in reasonably well in society who isn't all that gimped. He gets full attacks from his weapon and still has a solid natural attack to complement that or to fall back on.
I've not made the build out yet, though
-S
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She hasn't been updated since the second playtest came around, but here is Shiva, the Eidolon of a 20th level Summoner.
20th Level Medium Humanoid Eidolon
HD: 17d10+34 ( 204hp)
Speed: 30ft
Fort: 12=10+2 Reflex: 10=5+5 Will: 10=10+0 Bab:+17 CMB:+24 CMD: 39
Ac: 35=10+5(dex)+20(natural) Tch:15 Ff:30
Str24(16+8) Dex20(12+8) Con15(13+2)
Int10(7+2+1) Wis10 Cha14(11+2+1)
2 Slams(1d8+10+1d6 cold, x2, B)+25
Multiattack Slam(1d8+10+1d6 cold, x2, B)+20
Breath Weapon(17d6 cold, 30ft. Cone, Dc:22) 3/day
Evolutions: Limbs(arms, f), Slam(f, replaced claws), Legs(legs, f), Slam(1 point), Energy Attacks(cold, 2 points), Immunity(cold, 2 points), Breath Weapon(cold 6 points), Spell Resistance(4 points), Ability Increase(Int, 2 points), Ability Increase(Cha, 2 points), Resistance(fire 15, 1 point), Improved Natural Armor(1 point), Spell-Like Ability(Ice Storm 3/day, 5 points)
Special: Darkvision 60ft., Link, Share Spells, Evasion, Devotion, Multiattack, Improved Evasion, Ability Score Increases(+1 Int, +2 Con, +1 Cha)
Feats: Dodge(lv1), Mobility(Lv2), Ability Focus(Breath Weapon, Lv5), Vital Strike(Lv7), Weapon Focus(Slam, Lv10), Empower Spell-Like Ability(Ice Storm 3/day, Lv12), Spring Attack(Lv15), Improved Natural Attack(Slam, Lv17), Blind Fight(Lv20)
Skills
Perception: 20=0+17+3
Knowledge(the Planes): 20=0+17+3
Stealth: 25=5+17+3
Sense Motive: 20=0+17+3
Acrobatics: 25=5+17+3
Use Magic Device: 22=2+17+3
i imagine it depends on what level they are but i think ellington is probably on the right track (at least ellington, not to say that others aren't). i haven't actually written out a build but it looks like an eidolon that puts all its '+1 to any stat' bonuses into cha and buys the minimum number of +2 cha evolutions to keep up with casting progression, could always be able to use 1 spell of the max level availible to a sorcerer of the summoner's level 3/day as SLA, with points left over.
actually, at 10-11 you could have 2x 5th level spell 3/day each; at 12 you need to take +2 cha again, so couldnt double up on 6th level spells but starting at 15th you could use 2 7th level spells 3/day each; 16- 1 8th 3/day + either 1 8th 1/day or 1 7th 3/day; 17- 2 8th 3/day each; 18- have to take +2 cha again (unless using a cha item) but at 20 could use 2 9th level spells 3/day each. or you could just take one spell all the time and spend points on nat armor, immunities, fast heal or whatever you want.
heres 2 quick examples of possible medium biped eidolons (not whole builds just rough outlines) that i think could possibly work:
1. put 2 +1's from levels into cha, 1 in con; take +2 cha x3 [6], SLA- Shapechange 3/day [10], +2 str x2 [4], +2 dex [2] and +2 con x2 [4]; give him a belt of perfection +6 and a decent magic weapon that he spent a feat to be proficient in; take mostly all combat feats- power attack especially... i think he'd do alright in combat normally and the 3 times per day he used shapechange he'd be really solid (unbuffed, around 44 str with 6 attacks in dragon form)
2. all 3 +1's in cha; take +2 cha x4 [8], SLA- Dominate Monster 3/day [10], SLA- Hold Person, Mass 3/day[8]; spend one feat on wpn prof, and get him a decent weapon to use- he'll be about as useful in (melee) combat as a cleric; spend the feats for spell pen, gr. spell pen, and spell focus & gr spell focus [ench] (or ability focus for each SLA, depending on how you're DM handles spell focus and SLAs) and give him a +6 cha headband (summoner doesnt really need it since doesn't depend on DCs, and will have plenty of SLA summons for 1 at a time)... like i said, about as good in melee as a (strong) cleric but can use DC 28 mass hold person 3 times a day and DC 30 dominate monster 3 times a day, which can make a huge difference...
i dont know, just 2 possible ideas?
An Eidolon cannot have more than one spell-like ability. Each evolution can only be selected once unless the evolution specifies otherwise; Spell-Like Ability does not so specify. That (plus the difficulty in getting a decent Charisma) makes a caster-type Eidolon rather sad.
To address the original question, that depends on what you mean by "viable" and "considerable power". I'm not being facetious with that, either; give me a goal and I'll see what I can do.
thank you zurai, i had forgotten about that. example one might still be a possibility though.
Creative Director
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Most adventures are built assuming the PCs are Medium sized. I would think and assume that a Huge eidolon would self-select for trouble when it comes to dungeon crawling. Beyond that... once the excitement of the class's novelty dies down, I suspect that there'll be a lot of Medium eidolons simply because folks want an eidelon that can accompany them into places like taverns or castles or bookstores or goblin lairs... or simply for roleplaying choices.
I totally want a huge Eidolon snake to eat people. But that's neither here nor there.
Most of the damage is going to come from number of limbs anyway. Give anything enough attacks and it becomes statistically more dangerous.
While it is true that multiple limbs equals more damage, I really hope that the only viable damage dealing eidolons aren't multi-limbed monstrosities.
-S
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I've seen some eidolon builds in the boards that surprised me. Does someone know a way to build a 20th lvl eidolon(medium and without tentacles or other things) in a way it's power remains considerable?
The players in my game favor companion concepts that can walk with them trough cities and narrow spaces. I've tried to build an angel-like medium eidolon, but I believe it was unsuccessful.You don't really need tentacles. With a winged bidped humanoid. You can go:
Bite
Gore
Claw (Arm)
Claw (Arm)
Claw (Leg)
Claw (Leg)
Wing Buffet
Wing BuffetAnd that gets the max number of natural attacks, only two of which are secondary with no extra limbs other than the wings. I think attacking with weapons on your first pair of legs is silly, but that's how Paizo wants it after the change I guess.
You hurt yourself by not going large/huge, +8/+16 strength is a huge step up in offensive power. And that does free up 8 evolution points. Which if all put into strength gets you to: 32 Strength + Inherient/Enhancement bonus (potentially 11 more).
I don't think this creature would be dismissed as a noncredible threat.
Quick comment: you can now only put claw evolutions on arms, not on legs
Claws (Ex): An eidolon has a pair of vicious claws at the
end of its limbs, giving it two claw attacks. These attacks
are primary attacks. The claws deal 1d4 points of damage
(1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs
(arms) evolution to take this evolution. This evolution can
be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess
an equal number of the limbs evolution.
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I totally want a huge Eidolon snake to eat people. But that's neither here nor there.
Most of the damage is going to come from number of limbs anyway. Give anything enough attacks and it becomes statistically more dangerous.
Picture that as a BBEG leader of an evil Snake Cult. Summoner is the ultimate bad guy because he has his own Make-a-Monster kit...
While it is true that multiple limbs equals more damage, I really hope that the only viable damage dealing eidolons aren't multi-limbed monstrosities.
-S
More limbs = more damage. Though that obviously isn't the only way to go, it's going to be the best way to get most damage.
I've seen some eidolon builds in the boards that surprised me. Does someone know a way to build a 20th lvl eidolon(medium and without tentacles or other things) in a way it's power remains considerable?
The players in my game favor companion concepts that can walk with them trough cities and narrow spaces. I've tried to build an angel-like medium eidolon, but I believe it was unsuccessful.You don't really need tentacles. With a winged bidped humanoid. You can go:
Bite
Gore
Claw (Arm)
Claw (Arm)
Claw (Leg)
Claw (Leg)
Wing Buffet
Wing BuffetAnd that gets the max number of natural attacks, only two of which are secondary with no extra limbs other than the wings. I think attacking with weapons on your first pair of legs is silly, but that's how Paizo wants it after the change I guess.
You hurt yourself by not going large/huge, +8/+16 strength is a huge step up in offensive power. And that does free up 8 evolution points. Which if all put into strength gets you to: 32 Strength + Inherient/Enhancement bonus (potentially 11 more).
I don't think this creature would be dismissed as a noncredible threat.
Quick comment: you can now only put claw evolutions on arms, not on legs
Claws (Ex): An eidolon has a pair of vicious claws at the
end of its limbs, giving it two claw attacks. These attacks
are primary attacks. The claws deal 1d4 points of damage
(1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs
(arms) evolution to take this evolution. This evolution can
be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess
an equal number of the limbs evolution.
Read the errata, you may put claws on 1 set of legs.
I totally want a huge Eidolon snake to eat people. But that's neither here nor there.
Most of the damage is going to come from number of limbs anyway. Give anything enough attacks and it becomes statistically more dangerous.
Just get a portable hole with a necklace of adaptation. They will have a big surprise when you toss the hole down and a snake jumps out of it.
Just get a portable hole with a necklace of adaptation. They will have a big surprise when you toss the hole down and a snake jumps out of it.
Back to "I choose you!", eh? lol
To address the original question, that depends on what you mean by "viable" and "considerable power". I'm not being facetious with that, either; give me a goal and I'll see what I can do.
I was thinking about something that would not look bad in combat when compared with a huge variant. Right now it seems to me that being the maximum size possible is a must-do.
I was thinking about something that would not look bad in combat when compared with a huge variant. Right now it seems to me that being the maximum size possible is a must-do.
To address the original question, that depends on what you mean by "viable" and "considerable power". I'm not being facetious with that, either; give me a goal and I'll see what I can do.
Use the 8 points to get an extra 4 pair of arms. More swords! A medium creature without about 8 greataxes/greatswords ought to be able to compete with a huge creature.
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Quick comment: you can now only put claw evolutions on arms, not on legs
They updated the Adv. PDF on 2/3/10. You can see the changes in the sticked thread at the top of this section. Unless they've changed it again, but I just redownloaded to check that.
It currently reads:
Claws (Ex): An eidolon has a pair of vicious claws at the
end of its limbs, giving it two claw attacks. These attacks
are primary attacks. The claws deal 1d4 points of damage
(1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs
evolution to take this evolution. This evolution can only be
applied to the limbs (legs) evolution once This evolution can
be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess
an equal number of the limbs evolution.
That is a horrible rules lawyer approach to a change in the rules meant to allow quadrupedal eidolons the ability to gain claw attacks without having to buy a set of arms. The intent was not to allow bipedal humanoids the ability to gain claw attacks on their feet... besides, logistically, how are they going to attack with them? It seems they would have to be an extreme break dancer and quadruple jointed in order to accomplish a claw(arm)/claw(arm)/bite/wing-buffet/wing-buffet/claw(leg)/claw(leg) attack.
I wouldn't allow a humanoid form eidolon to gain claws on their legs( or if I allowed it they wouldn't be able to attack with them very often, unless they want to gain the prone condition ).
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Most adventures are built assuming the PCs are Medium sized. I would think and assume that a Huge eidolon would self-select for trouble when it comes to dungeon crawling. Beyond that... once the excitement of the class's novelty dies down, I suspect that there'll be a lot of Medium eidolons simply because folks want an eidelon that can accompany them into places like taverns or castles or bookstores or goblin lairs... or simply for roleplaying choices.
My one player that is running a summoner immediately went for a medium humanoid eidolian. It handled itself pretty well, up until they ran into a froghemoth and it got eaten. (Its not my fault Jason put it on the random encounter chart.) Granted, our group is not anywhere near the level the OP is asking about, but we found that a medium humanoid eidolian with a greatsword can handle just about anything in the realm of 3rd to 4th leavel threats.
That is a horrible rules lawyer approach to a change in the rules meant to allow quadrupedal eidolons the ability to gain claw attacks without having to buy a set of arms. The intent was not to allow bipedal humanoids the ability to gain claw attacks on their feet... besides, logistically, how are they going to attack with them? It seems they would have to be an extreme break dancer and quadruple jointed in order to accomplish a claw(arm)/claw(arm)/bite/wing-buffet/wing-buffet/claw(leg)/claw(leg) attack.
If they have wings it is pretty obvious how they are going to be able to attack with them. I imagine flying is involved somewhere.
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If they have wings it is pretty obvious how they are going to be able to attack with them. I imagine flying is involved somewhere.
That is a horrible rules lawyer approach to a change in the rules meant to allow quadrupedal eidolons the ability to gain claw attacks without having to buy a set of arms. The intent was not to allow bipedal humanoids the ability to gain claw attacks on their feet... besides, logistically, how are they going to attack with them? It seems they would have to be an extreme break dancer and quadruple jointed in order to accomplish a claw(arm)/claw(arm)/bite/wing-buffet/wing-buffet/claw(leg)/claw(leg) attack.
Highly situationally depend, but I'll give you that. I think jason needs to go back to the pdf and remove that section from the claws description and add it as an exception in the quadrupedal form description.
Back to "I choose you!", eh? lolJust get a portable hole with a necklace of adaptation. They will have a big surprise when you toss the hole down and a snake jumps out of it.
Oh sweet gods this is awesome!
*steals idea*
"Biped" and "Humanoid" are not synonyms.
How do bipeds attack with their feet? Well, if they are holding weapons and not flying they probably don't. (and shouldn't be allowed to).
If, however, they are using all natural attacks i see no reason to disallow them the ability to attack while not necessarily standing ramrod straight like we humans tend to do. I find it very easy to imagine a more gorilla-like biped who usually walks on all his hind legs but who can also lope forward on long arms, to better get all his weapons to bare on a given opponent. The Pounce ability especially lends itself to that, and a general action of "i pounce the creature" should also work. (that is, using pounce as a verb rather than a special ability).
Just my thoughts.
-S
I was thinking about something that would not look bad in combat when compared with a huge variant. Right now it seems to me that being the maximum size possible is a must-do.
The big stumbling block is that eidolons are mostly focused on melee, and the +16 Str and +8 Con from being Huge are hard to beat for a melee fighter.
Two words for you, Roundhouse kick."Biped" and "Humanoid" are not synonyms.
How do bipeds attack with their feet? Well, if they are holding weapons and not flying they probably don't. (and shouldn't be allowed to).
-S
Two more words: KANGAROO FIGHT!!
Two words for you, Roundhouse kick.
"BOOT TO THE HEAD!"
You could always split the difference and go with a large Eidolon. Then if a situation requires it the summoner can cast enlarge person to get it to huge or reduce person to get it to medium, if they're willing to take up 2 of their 6 1st level spells known, of course.
Two words for you, Roundhouse kick."BOOT TO THE HEAD!"
"The best defense is a good offense."
-Mel, the cook from "Alice"
If he can use swords, he can use bows. But I don't see why you would have it ranged...
From the player's perspective, being able to control the battlefield and kill the controlled enemies using a single class strikes me as a potentially powerful combination. Normally battlefield controllers tend to have to rely on other party members to clean up the divided/weakened enemies. A ranged attack built eidolon can also potentially reduce the defensive requirements, while still allowing the eidolon to have some longevity.
Even if you had an eidolon using a ranged weapon, you'd still probably be just as well off with a large size eidolon vs. medium size (-2 to attacks, but +6 or more to damage)
From the player's perspective, being able to control the battlefield and kill the controlled enemies using a single class strikes me as a potentially powerful combination. Normally battlefield controllers tend to have to rely on other party members to clean up the divided/weakened enemies. A ranged attack built eidolon can also potentially reduce the defensive requirements, while still allowing the eidolon to have some longevity.Even if you had an eidolon using a ranged weapon, you'd still probably be just as well off with a large size eidolon vs. medium size (-2 to attacks, but +6 or more to damage)
The large eidolon (not huge)is going to have 1 longbow attack at 1d20(-2) for 1d10+7 damage (16+8=24=+7 mod?). A medium eidolon would have 3 longbow attacks at 1d20(-2) for 1d8+3 damage.
The large eidolon (not huge)is going to have 1 longbow attack at 1d20(-2) for 1d10+7 damage (16+8=24=+7 mod?). A medium eidolon would have 3 longbow attacks at 1d20(-2) for 1d8+3 damage.
A large longbow does 2d6 damage, not 1d10 damage.
Where do you get the three attacks from? If it's Rapid Shot/Manyshot, then you might as well use those for the large eidolon as well.
The large eidolon (not huge)is going to have 1 longbow attack at 1d20(-2) for 1d10+7 damage (16+8=24=+7 mod?). A medium eidolon would have 3 longbow attacks at 1d20(-2) for 1d8+3 damage.A large longbow does 2d6 damage, not 1d10 damage.
Where do you get the three attacks from? If it's Rapid Shot/Manyshot, then you might as well use those for the large eidolon as well.
Did they change the die increase by size table for Pathfinder?
3 attacks - instead of getting Large size (4 pt evolution) he got two more sets of arms, each set with a longbow. Multiweapon Fighting
Did they change the die increase by size table for Pathfinder?
No, it's always been 1d8 => 2d6 for medium => large weapons in 3.5/PFRPG.
See Table: Larger and Smaller Weapon Damage
See Table: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage
3 attacks - instead of getting Large size (4 pt evolution) he got two more sets of arms, each set with a longbow. Multiweapon Fighting
At this point, it's impossible to compare two builds without actually writing them down for comparison's sake.
No, it's always been 1d8 => 2d6 for medium => large weapons in 3.5/PFRPG.
Did they change the die increase by size table for Pathfinder?
I was looking at the wrong part of the table. Stupid inconsistent rules -_-
3 attacks - instead of getting Large size (4 pt evolution) he got two more sets of arms, each set with a longbow. Multiweapon FightingAt this point, it's impossible to compare two builds without actually writing them down for comparison's sake.
We can make a rough draft. Have to be 4th level. 2nd feat is unimportant (let's say it is the same)
Big E: Biped, Large Size, Str Increase (the str bonus from level up is uneven), Large +8 Mighty Longbow. 1 feat, let's say WF(Longbow). That's 1d20 + 5 (+1 WF +0 Dex (+1 base - 1 size) + 4 BAB), 2d6+8.Little E: Biped, Medium size, 2 arm evolutions, Dex increase (Dex bonus from level up is uneven), 1 feat - Multiweapon Fighting, 3 Medium +3 Mighty Longbow. So that is 3*( 1d20 + 4 (+2 Dex +4 BAB - 2 MWF), 1d8+3)
My BAB may be off because I am using unupdated d20pfsrd.com table.
We can make a rough draft. Have to be 4th level.
At this point, it's impossible to compare two builds without actually writing them down for comparison's sake.
Actually, a large size eidolon requires level 6. So you can tack on an extra two evolution points to your examples below (toss it into Ability Increase: Dex, or maybe another pair of limbs).
2nd feat is unimportant (let's say it is the same)
Big E: Biped, Large Size, Str Increase (the str bonus from level up is uneven), Large +8 Mighty Longbow. 1 feat, let's say WF(Longbow). That's 1d20 + 5 (+1 WF +0 Dex (+1 base - 1 size) + 4 BAB), 2d6+8.Little E: Biped, Medium size, 2 arm evolutions, Dex increase (Dex bonus from level up is uneven), 1 feat - Multiweapon Fighting, 3 Medium +3 Mighty Longbow. So that is 3*( 1d20 + 4 (+2 Dex +4 BAB - 2 MWF), 1d8+3)
As far as I can tell, Multiweapon Fighting should reduce the main hand/off-hand penalties to -4/-4 (since a bow is not a light weapon). Maybe you could change the example to use light thrown weapons instead (it'll require the Quick Draw feat, though).
We can make a rough draft. Have to be 4th level.
At this point, it's impossible to compare two builds without actually writing them down for comparison's sake.Actually, a large size eidolon requires level 6. So you can tack on an extra two evolution points to your examples below (toss it into Ability Increase: Dex, or maybe another pair of limbs).
As far as I can tell, Multiweapon Fighting should reduce the main hand/off-hand penalties to -4/-4 (since a bow is not a light weapon). Maybe you could change the example to use light thrown weapons instead (it'll require the Quick Draw feat, though).2nd feat is unimportant (let's say it is the same)
Big E: Biped, Large Size, Str Increase (the str bonus from level up is uneven), Large +8 Mighty Longbow. 1 feat, let's say WF(Longbow). That's 1d20 + 5 (+1 WF +0 Dex (+1 base - 1 size) + 4 BAB), 2d6+8.Little E: Biped, Medium size, 2 arm evolutions, Dex increase (Dex bonus from level up is uneven), 1 feat - Multiweapon Fighting, 3 Medium +3 Mighty Longbow. So that is 3*( 1d20 + 4 (+2 Dex +4 BAB - 2 MWF), 1d8+3)
Good point.
So let's add ability increase Dex and take off another -2, so it's still +3 to hit.
8 armed shruiken throwing eidolon?
8 armed starknife throwing eidolon.
8 armed shruiken throwing eidolon?8 armed starknife throwing eidolon.
Seriously. If you are going to throw weapons, you might as well hurt some one doing it.
I don't get why anyone would say bipeds shouldn't be able to get claws on their feet. Plenty of bipedal creatures attack with their legs. Dinosaurs, flightless birds, regular birds, and humans are what come to mind at the moment, but limiting claws to quads only would be weird.