i dont quite know if this is the right forum but i was wondering if there was a good way to go about making one that uses the elven curve blade and eventually the improved crit feats. im not so well versed in the pathfinder universe. thanks in advance and sorry if its the wrong forum
Im currently building an Eldritch Knight as well. One thing to consider (which Im using) is the Dervish Dance feat from the Qadira Companion, it lets you add your dex bonus to damage instead of strength when using a Scimitar with nothing else in your offhand. It helps cure some MAD since you can, essentially, dump str for dex and int.
My 20 point buy is looking like this after elf racials: 9 str, 18 dex, 12 con, 18 int, 10 wis, 7 cha.
Progression wise I plan on taking weapon finesse/Dervish Dance, then taking the staples like Arcane Strike and Power Attack, then the weapon specialization route and step up/disruptive/Spellbreaker (this chain is really only because its something I want to try) while also working toward Improved Crit/Crit Focus/one of the "if you crit" feats as well.
Consider taking the "Magical Knack" trait (if traits are allowed) to compensate for the 2 caster levels you'll lose. After Eldritch knight 10, Id suggest continuing Wizard until you have 9th level spells. Assuming you're a Wizard 8/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 10 at this point you have to pick at level 20 if you want another 9th level spell/day (by picking another Wizard level) or another iterative attack and combat feat (through a fighter level).
The only point Im really still deciding on school specialization. Based on bonus spells ONLY Necromancy and Conjuration are pretty decent. Divination probably gives the absolute best "ability" since you always act in the surprise round(and economy of actions seems to be the number 1 enemy of a gish build), but its spells can be lacking. Transmutation is OK, you'll always want to use one of its spells and its ability is nice early on (but eventually irrelevant/replaced since you'll have items that wont stack with the enhancement bonus).
Anyway, thats my two cents.
How about this:
Elf Eldritch Knight.
Traits: Magical Kanck (+2CL), Reactive (+2 Initiative)
1. Fighter, Weapon Focus, Power Attack.
2. F2, Improved Initiative.
3. Wizard (Diviner) 1, Weapon Bond, Arcane Strike
4. W2
5. W3, Arcane Armor Training.
6. W4
7. W5, Arcane Armor Mastery, choice of metamagic feat.
8. W6
9. W7, Choice
10. W8, Diviner special ability.
11. Eldritch Knight, choice
12. EK2, Improved Critical
I'm a big fan of the Diviner for EKs. The ability to act in all surprise rounds, along with the bonus to initiative, is greatly under appreciated. The above character at lvl 10 would have a +10 to initiative before dex modifiers, and frequently get to act in the surprise round before the ambushers get to.
You could also take up EK at lvl 8, lose 2 points of initiative bonus, the 8th lvl diviner ability, but pick up Improved critical a level earlier.
You could also go with human, using the bonus feat to pick up the curve blade and gain an extra skill point per level.
Hope this was what you were looking for.
Ooopsy. Weapon Bond should read Arcane Focus. And Weapon Finesse should replace Power Attack. Pick up Power Attack and Cleave with EK bonus feats.
EK is one of my favorite PrCs; it best captures the classic "elven fighter/magic-user" of the older editions. I agree with everything the other posters have suggested, and when it comes to the choice between extra attack/feat or 9th-level spell, I'd go with the spells. I think you'll get more mileage out of your character if you can cast the mightiest magics. You won't be as badazz in combat as a 20th-level fighter, nor will you be as powerful in magic as a 20th-level wizard, but you won't be very far behind in either dept., making EK one of the most versatile PrCs, IMHO. Practiced Spellcaster (I think that's what it's called) might be a good feat if you take more than a couple of fighter levels. There's my 2 cents! :)
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+1 on this, though I am always more inclined to go only 1 level of fighter, 5 wizard, 10 EK, then finish off with 4 more wizard. That way you finish off as a effective level 18 wizard and CL of 20 with the trait. This still maintains a final BAB of 15 which is good. I think that saves average out to a base of about 9 across the board.
I mapped out this progression but it's on my home computer. I will post it in the afternoon .
How about this:
Elf Eldritch Knight.
Traits: Magical Kanck (+2CL), Reactive (+2 Initiative)
1. Fighter, Weapon Focus, Power Attack.
2. F2, Improved Initiative.
3. Wizard (Diviner) 1, Weapon Bond, Arcane Strike
4. W2
5. W3, Arcane Armor Training.
6. W4
7. W5, Arcane Armor Mastery, choice of metamagic feat.
8. W6
9. W7, Choice
10. W8, Diviner special ability.
11. Eldritch Knight, choice
12. EK2, Improved CriticalI'm a big fan of the Diviner for EKs. The ability to act in all surprise rounds, along with the bonus to initiative, is greatly under appreciated. The above character at lvl 10 would have a +10 to initiative before dex modifiers, and frequently get to act in the surprise round before the ambushers get to.
You could also take up EK at lvl 8, lose 2 points of initiative bonus, the 8th lvl diviner ability, but pick up Improved critical a level earlier.
You could also go with human, using the bonus feat to pick up the curve blade and gain an extra skill point per level.
Hope this was what you were looking for.
No real suggestions here, just my experience.
Only real trouble I had was around 8th level when I still only had one attack (and consistently rolled moderately low on attacks)
I was half-orc, you'd want Elf for Curve Blade. I use a falchion, which is quite similar.
Traits: Scouting for Fiends (campaign), Suspicious (sense motive +1)
Level - details - feats (spells/rage powers of note)
Wiz1 - Transmuter, (Arcane Bond: Falchion) - Eschew Materials, Scribe Scroll (Enlarge Person, Shield)
Barb1
Barb2 - Dodge (Knockback)
Wiz2 -
Wiz3 - Arcane Armor Training (Spider Climb)
Wiz4 -
Wiz5 - Power Attack, Craft Wand (Haste)
Wiz6 -
EKn1 - Improved Bull Rush, Greater Bull Rush
EKn2 - (Stoneskin, Fireshield)
EKn3 - Forge Ring (feather fall, climb, swim, sustenance*, fire resist)
EKn4 - (Teleport, Transmute Rock to Mud)
EKn5 - Quicken Spell, Improved Critical (falchion) (Quickened Enlarge/Shield)
EKn6 - (Transformation (surprisingly good!), Quickened Cat's Grace)
As I said, only low point was Wiz6/EKn1 when BAB was suffering, and that really could have been mostly fixed by taking Weapon focus earlier instead of some of my more flavorful feats.
Core only: Fighter 1/Wizard 9/EK 10 is definitely the way to go.
3.x allowed: Abjurant Cheesemonkey build is probably the way to go
Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7 is a decent build.
There are other build out there that abuse the hell out of sublime chord and sacred exorcist PrCs but for ease of use Abjurant + Spellsword + EK is definitely good.
I think it might also be worthwhile to cheese out with the incantrix or initiate of the 7fold veils but at a certain point it's better to just go wizard/incantrix cheese.
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Ya know, while we're all here and on the subject of Eldritch Knight, why is it so important to ensure that you have 18 levels of spellcasting?
I mean, I understand the draw, don't get me wrong. But if I wanted 18 levels of wizard spellcasting, I would've made a full wizard. All most builds do is improve Wizard spellcasting and give a DECENT bonus to attack rolls.
Really, I think it'd be interesting to see either a dual-wielding or Vital-Striking Eldritch knight with maybe a Fighter 5/Wizard 5/EK 10 kinda build. I mean, Vital Strike feats stack really well with the EK Crit-Spell feature, especially with a falchion/ scimitar+kukri (though the limit of one swift per round makes the latter less useful). I dunno. It seems like capitalizing on extra damage from 3rd-5th level spells would be more appropriate for an EK than making him a spellcaster that can occasionally get into melee.
Ya know, while we're all here and on the subject of Eldritch Knight, why is it so important to ensure that you have 18 levels of spellcasting?
I mean, I understand the draw, don't get me wrong. But if I wanted 18 levels of wizard spellcasting, I would've made a full wizard. All most builds do is improve Wizard spellcasting and give a DECENT bonus to attack rolls.
Really, I think it'd be interesting to see either a dual-wielding or Vital-Striking Eldritch knight with maybe a Fighter 5/Wizard 5/EK 10 kinda build. I mean, Vital Strike feats stack really well with the EK Crit-Spell feature, especially with a falchion/ scimitar+kukri (though the limit of one swift per round makes the latter less useful). I dunno. It seems like capitalizing on extra damage from 3rd-5th level spells would be more appropriate for an EK than making him a spellcaster that can occasionally get into melee.
Fighter 5/Wizard 5/EK 10
BAB +17 (4 iterative attacks)7th level spells
Fighter 2/Wizard 8/EK 10
BAB +16 (4 iterative attacks)
9th level spells
The first build give up 2 spell levels for a +1 to BAB :|
Considering you can generally scrap out a slightly higher BAB with a spellsword/ Abj Cheese/ EK build the Fighter 5/Wizard 5/EK 10 build simply does not measure up.
Fighter 5/Wizard 5/EK 10
BAB +17 (4 iterative attacks)
7th level spellsFighter 2/Wizard 8/EK 10
BAB +16 (4 iterative attacks)
9th level spells
Important to point out that the Fighter 5 one has Weapon Training, pretty much another BAB.
Probably would do Ftr4/Wiz6 though.
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Ya know, while we're all here and on the subject of Eldritch Knight, why is it so important to ensure that you have 18 levels of spellcasting?
I mean, I understand the draw, don't get me wrong. But if I wanted 18 levels of wizard spellcasting, I would've made a full wizard. All most builds do is improve Wizard spellcasting and give a DECENT bonus to attack rolls.
Really, I think it'd be interesting to see either a dual-wielding or Vital-Striking Eldritch knight with maybe a Fighter 5/Wizard 5/EK 10 kinda build. I mean, Vital Strike feats stack really well with the EK Crit-Spell feature, especially with a falchion/ scimitar+kukri (though the limit of one swift per round makes the latter less useful). I dunno. It seems like capitalizing on extra damage from 3rd-5th level spells would be more appropriate for an EK than making him a spellcaster that can occasionally get into melee.
this is the sort of build I'm doing a my game run by Kirth - it's got some modified rules, so the build's not really the same, but the concept - a fighter with some magical tricks up her sleeve to contribute to her fighting ability - is my preferred mage/fighter character type.
Core only: Fighter 1/Wizard 9/EK 10 is definitely the way to go.
3.x allowed: Abjurant Cheesemonkey build is probably the way to go
Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7 is a decent build.
There are other build out there that abuse the hell out of sublime chord and sacred exorcist PrCs but for ease of use Abjurant + Spellsword + EK is definitely good.
I think it might also be worthwhile to cheese out with the incantrix or initiate of the 7fold veils but at a certain point it's better to just go wizard/incantrix cheese.
It is quite possibly to mix Arcane Archer into the mix;
Fighter 1
Wizard 5
Eldritch Knight 10
Arcane Archer 4
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First off, let me just say that I agree with the idea that a F2/W8/EK10 is more optimal. However, we're talking about a character type that is more concerned with melee effectiveness, not spellcasting ability.
(I'm using only core PF, btw)
As it stands, a F5/W5/EK10 has:
Better HD
Armor Training (for better physical ability checks and PROBABLY higher AC due to dexterity)
Weapon Training (Making the combo 10% more accurate than the alternative)
Another Fighter Bonus Feat
And Qualification for any <15 Fighter feats (such as Critical Mastery).
Now, you DO lose spell levels doing this. But those are spell levels this combo doesn't NEED. And that's the important part. Yeah, you're not getting the earth-shattering cataclysms that are higher level spells... but that's the wizard's job. You're there to take hits and dish out your own. Plus, IF you take the Vital Strike chain, you're a very mobile fighter that can actually deal decent damage while moving, thanks to Spell Critical.
Additionally, many of the damage spells this combo will be using most often are capped at ~CL15, which is exactly what this combo gets. All in all, this is a combo that can do decent damage in melee, and it's critical hits (probably 15-20) will be awesome, combining several useful and damaging effects. And I think that's really the core of this combo.
You get your maneuverability, and your magic, but you don't have to sit in the back row like a wizard. You get to act like a glass cannon, but still have a decent amount of toughness thanks to those few extra levels of fighter, and with a few low-level buffs (like shield), you can even play the big, stupid fighter that you draw from.
*Edit: Plus, you can spend that one Wizard feat on Still Spell. Very useful for this character type, as long as you're only really worried about damage. Besides, you're a melee character. Once you're out of spells, you've still got your awesome fighter talents to draw on.
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Even melée focused the wizard setup is better; if for no other reason than getting more quickened spells to buff/full attack without losing rounds. Or Time Stop, buff up, and move on with slaying. Of course, this again assumes 20th level characters; truly once you have completed knight at level 16 it matters very little, you'll be "fine" either way.
With all the feats, parts of me wonder if eldrich knights don't make better Arcane Archers; they can take more levels of wizard than the arcane archer, and lose less spellcasting levels. Oh, and get a better level 10 "megabuff".
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Quick question: Tieflings , as outsiders, get proficiency with all martial weapons , right? Would it be possible to build a Tiefling EK without the fighter level?
Ken
By the rules, yes. The question is does your group accept the racial proficencies bit. Honestly I don't think cultural things like that should be dependant on race.
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Even melée focused the wizard setup is better; if for no other reason than getting more quickened spells to buff/full attack without losing rounds. Or Time Stop, buff up, and move on with slaying. Of course, this again assumes 20th level characters; truly once you have completed knight at level 16 it matters very little, you'll be "fine" either way.
With all the feats, parts of me wonder if eldrich knights don't make better Arcane Archers; they can take more levels of wizard than the arcane archer, and lose less spellcasting levels. Oh, and get a better level 10 "megabuff".
You make an excellent point with time stop, but the problem with quickened spells is that they take up that important swift action. Sure, you could use a quickened spell to buff yourself really quickly, but you're PROBABLY a diviner (Either this or Evoker are perfect for this build) so you're going early in the initiative anyways. Plus, you can use that swift action when you get a critical hit, which, using a falchion, you will be getting lots of. And if you just quickened a spell with the feat (say a damage one), then all you'll end up doing is taking up a 7th-9th level spell slot to do damage that you had a pretty good chance of doing with melee attacks (again, assuming a falchion). Now, while you could benefit from some swift buffing, it's probably better to assume that you're either buffing A) before combat (a better solution) or B) during the surprise round (in which you're probably going first if a diviner). Either way, the buffs are already there, so your job is to get into melee and draw attacks while dealing high damage.
Quick question: Tieflings , as outsiders, get proficiency with all martial weapons , right? Would it be possible to build a Tiefling EK without the fighter level?
Ken
I generally go with the tiefling and aasimars only getting the abilities listed in the bestiary. Outsiders that can advance by HD get proficiencies and those that are limited to advance by class shouldn't. I know they got rid of the native outsider classification but I really don't like the precedent of planar races getting free weapon proficiencies.
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Elf Fighter 1/ Wizard 9/ Eldritch Knight 10
Trait: Magical Knack
20 buy
STR: 14 (5)
DEX: 16 (5)
CON: 10 (2)
INT: 18 (10)
WIS: 10 (0)
CHA: 8 (-2)
Stat Increases: Con(4,8,16,20), Int(12)
BAB:15 Base Saves - Fort:10 Ref:6 Will:9
Effective Wizard Level: 18
Effective Fighter level: 11
Effective Caster Level: 20
FEATS:
1F:Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse(Bonus)
2W:Arcane Bond (Elven Curved Blade), Specialization (Divination)
3W:Arcane Strike
4W:
5W:Dodge
6W:Still Spell(Bonus)
7E:Mobility, Arcane Armor Training(Bonus)
8E:
9E:Spring Attack
10E:
11E:Vital Strike, Arcane Armor Mastery(Bonus)
12E:
13E:Improved Critical
14E:
15E:Critical Focus, Improved Vital Strike (Bonus)
16E:
17W:Bleeding Critical
18W:
19W:Staggering Critical
20W:
Im a little surprised with the end all be all school specialization being initiative. You'll end up with +4 to initiative, the ability to always act in the surprise round, and the lvl 8 ability for some scry protection. The ability IS amazing, Ill admit, but I think it is HEAVILY balanced by the spell choices. Honestly, I would not want to prepare most of the divination spells daily. I could see some of the higher level slots being taken up by True Strike instead of a level equivalent spell. This balances it. It makes schools like Necromancy (which I think would go great with a EK for the debuffing ability) and Transmutation (whose abilities will be nice initially [although quickly become obsolete]) which has spells at every level I wont be able to cast enough of (3rd level spells, Im looking at you!).
I think its a pretty tough call on which school to cast. That said, Ill admit, Im still very torn between Necromancy, Divination, and Transmutation for my school spec.
Well, as you said, Transmutation will eventually become obsolete, so I wouldn't go with that. While the necromancy spells are nice, the special abilities are a bit lacking, in my opinion. Really, the bonus spell from Div isn't too useful, but neither are the bonus spells from the other schools.
Honestly, I can find a bonus spell from each level of Necromancy AND Transmutation I'd want, with the exception of maybe one or two levels (which is inevitable no matter which school spec you choose). Divination I really only see one or two Id be happy preparing regularly, and even then most are at the upper levels.
All the abilities, except divination, are ho-hum for a build that is taking a max of 8 Wizard levels...
This doesn't really add to the discussion, but out of curiosity - is the Eldritch Knight supposed PF's answer for a Death Knight? I mean - is that technically a Wizard's proprietary monster? I could be misreading it, but just curious.
Tieflings are not standard outsiders. they are NATIVE outsiders. Their weapon proficiencies are totally determined by class and feats. True outsiders are creatures with Outsider hit dice.Quick question: Tieflings , as outsiders, get proficiency with all martial weapons , right? Would it be possible to build a Tiefling EK without the fighter level?
Ken
This is "correct". For better evidence, look to the Unearthed Arcana, Tiefling Paragon class, which *does* grant martial weapon proficiency.
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Tieflings are not standard outsiders. they are NATIVE outsiders. Their weapon proficiencies are totally determined by class and feats. True outsiders are creatures with Outsider hit dice.
Actually, they are Outsiders (Native), which should mean they get the abilities of both types. So saying they don't get the proficiencies goes against the rules. Which is why I think cultural things like weapon proficiencies and training should not be a part of racial abilities.
See I can almost always find a divination spell I want to have each day.
Detect Secret Doors / identify
See Invisibility / locate object
Arcane Sight / Clarvoyance / Tongues
Detect Scrying / Scrying
Telepathic Bond
True Seeing / Legend Lore / Analyze Dweomer
Greater Arcane Sight/ Greater Scrying
Greater Prying Eyes / (maybe) moment of Prescience
Foresight
These are all good spells that will likely see use in a day of adventuring.
You don't have to prepare only divination spells but there are plenty of good ones to prepare once per day at least.
wow thanks a bunch for all the responses, it really helped me out. im gunna read this a bit more before i make my final decision but i think im leaning towards the more caster version
This doesn't really add to the discussion, but out of curiosity - is the Eldritch Knight supposed PF's answer for a Death Knight? I mean - is that technically a Wizard's proprietary monster? I could be misreading it, but just curious.
PF answer to the Death Knight is IMO the Skeletal Champion (p. 252 Bestiary)
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Im currently building an Eldritch Knight as well. One thing to consider (which Im using) is the Dervish Dance feat from the Qadira Companion, it lets you add your dex bonus to damage instead of strength when using a Scimitar with nothing else in your offhand. It helps cure some MAD since you can, essentially, dump str for dex and int.
My 20 point buy is looking like this after elf racials: 9 str, 18 dex, 12 con, 18 int, 10 wis, 7 cha.
Progression wise I plan on taking weapon finesse/Dervish Dance, then taking the staples like Arcane Strike and Power Attack, then the weapon specialization route and step up/disruptive/Spellbreaker (this chain is really only because its something I want to try) while also working toward Improved Crit/Crit Focus/one of the "if you crit" feats as well.
Consider taking the "Magical Knack" trait (if traits are allowed) to compensate for the 2 caster levels you'll lose. After Eldritch knight 10, Id suggest continuing Wizard until you have 9th level spells. Assuming you're a Wizard 8/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 10 at this point you have to pick at level 20 if you want another 9th level spell/day (by picking another Wizard level) or another iterative attack and combat feat (through a fighter level).The only point Im really still deciding on school specialization. Based on bonus spells ONLY Necromancy and Conjuration are pretty decent. Divination probably gives the absolute best "ability" since you always act in the surprise round(and economy of actions seems to be the number 1 enemy of a gish build), but its spells can be lacking. Transmutation is OK, you'll always want to use one of its spells and its ability is nice early on (but eventually irrelevant/replaced since you'll have items that wont stack with the enhancement bonus).
Anyway, thats my two cents.
Remember that Power Attack requires Str 13.
I play an EK, W6,F2,EK5. I picked transmution school focus. He uses a bow and most of the spells for the day are transmutation.
Gravety bow
Greater Magic Weapon
Keen
Echolocation (we're fighting some invisible mobs now)
flexarmor
reduce person
fly
overland flight
Mnomic enhancer
Bear's endurance.
With extend spell feat, buffs are up during most combat. I agree that EK is a cool PrC. It's the first PrC that I've played.
M'kay... much scribbling, page-turning, and calculating later.
Disclaimer: This build is, likely, sub-optimal.
But if I were in a game that actually ran 20 levels, this is what I'd be planning to become.
Human, Necromancer 5/Fighter 5/Eldritch Knight 10
>ahem<
Levels 1-5 Necromancer
Level 6 Fighter
Levels 7-16 Eldritch Knight
Levels 17-20 Fighter
Initial Stats:
Str 10
Dex 17 (human +2)
Con 14
Int 15
Wis 11
Cha 10
@4th, +1 Dex; @8th, 12th, +1 Int; @16th, +1 Wis; @20th, +1 Int.
Final Stats (without magic gear buffs)
Str 10
Dex 18
Con 14
Int 18
Wis 12
Cha 10
Feats
@1st: Spell Focus/Necromancy, Weapon Finesse, (Scribe Scroll)
3rd: Greater Spell Focus
5th: Quick Draw, Extend Spell
6th: Weapon Focus/Rapier
7th: Leadership, Point Blank Shot
9th: Improved Familiar (Imp Consular)
11th: Improved Critical/Rapier, Precise Shot
13th: Critical Focus
15th: Heighten Spell, Improved Precise Shot
17th: Deadly Aim, Penetrating Strike
19th: Blinding Critical, Pinpoint Targeting
Yes, I KNOW there's no Arcane Armor Training on the list. And levels w/o Bracers of Armor (or a Robe of the Archmagi, by preference) will suck hard. But I'm not going to pass on Spell Critical OR have a Spell Critical fizzle because of armor: damn them for both using swift actions...
:-)
Didn't go into spell list... but really don't miss anything but Moment of Prescience and Time Stop.
7th level spells are truly gross enough, imo.
Quick question: Tieflings , as outsiders, get proficiency with all martial weapons , right? Would it be possible to build a Tiefling EK without the fighter level?
My assumption was that outsider racial hit dice granted those.
EK has always been a favorite of mine and I've returned to it way too often... apologies if I'm repeating things already said but I can't resist getting in my 2 cents.
From both an RP and a mechanical point of view, Divination:Foresight is now my absolute favorite; its killer for weapon rolls (free crits, making sure you don't blow a crit) and conceptually it fits perfectly with EK in my opinion. What kind of wizard would be more likely to pick up a blade than one with the ability to see ahead to effective attacks? As pointed out above, divination is packed with good stuff, and I'm not sure anyone mentioned Named Bullet - perfect for having your EK open up combat by throwing a vicious javelin (I even considered Opening Volley with that tactic.)
When using Fighter1/ consider taking Unbreakable archetype to get survival goodies in exchange for your bonus feat, and Magical Knack trait is another great RP valid pick that is mechanically so made for an EK its not even funny. Anatomist is quite logical as well but it felt too power-gamer unsuitable RP to me, so I took Highlander and went in for decent stealth, as you aren't worrying about armor check penalty (maybe my EK will decide some field-study in anatomy is a good idea if taking extra trait feat). Lastly, while they are expensive feat-chains, take a look at Dimensional Agility, Dimensional Assault, Dimensional Dervish for one of the coolest EK combat concepts I've seen, and Combat Expertise, Blind Fight, Moonlight stalker to make fighting while magically concealed (always a good idea for the EK) considerably more deadly (combat expertise doesn't hurt to have if you start getting smacked around either).
Oh, and one strategic consideration - EK isn't a magus using spell and weapon simultaneously; you can play as a wizard first, then move up to being a fighter after you cast the high level stuff you want to, and if you end up being too far back to just charge into the action its nice to have a decent throw weapon on hand.