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As most of the damage will be coming from the Eidolon, and the summoner will provide more of the utility, the Eidolon is going to be engaged in combat and taking damage...effectively adding 1 member to the party to further tax what are usually very strained healing resources.
My suggestion is either add heal spells to summoner spell list or give them an additional SLA that allows them to use heal/cure spells x/day but only on their Eidolon. I think this would reduce the strain on a party's healers while supporting the summoner's utility/Eidolon buffer role.
I'd rather give the Eidelon an ability to heal. That way you could have a summoner who focused on making a healer Eidelon instead of a combat monster, thus taking over for the cleric/druid/paladin in the healing role.
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Personally, I don't think it would hurt to give the Summoner a couple of Cure spells. Nothing too crazy, maybe light, moderate, and serious. Inquisitor has them, (which don't get me wrong, they're divine casters but still...) and Bards have them, it doesn't seem to hurt to give a few to the Summoner. It seems to me that the Summoner would have them to support his Eidolon if anything else, since the Summoner is already so heavily stacked to support casting.
My two cents.
Fast Healing 5/minute on the eidolon would be a decent addition to the base eidolon stats. That way the eidolon isn't a constant drain on party unless you want/need to heal during combat situations.
it could then be supplemented by additonal evolutions
Personally, I don't think it would hurt to give the Summoner a couple of Cure spells. Nothing too crazy, maybe light, moderate, and serious. Inquisitor has them, (which don't get me wrong, they're divine casters but still...) and Bards have them, it doesn't seem to hurt to give a few to the Summoner. It seems to me that the Summoner would have them to support his Eidolon if anything else, since the Summoner is already so heavily stacked to support casting.
Fast Healing 5/minute on the eidolon would be a decent addition to the base eidolon stats. That way the eidolon isn't a constant drain on party unless you want/need to heal during combat situations.
it could then be supplemented by additonal evolutions
I really think summoner needs something like this, either of these would be acceptable and help to bring the class up to where it needs to be.
Yeah, and fighters should get fast healing, too. Because they are always right there in the fight and don't have magical healing abilities. No fair!
Yeah, and fighters should get fast healing, too. Because they are always right there in the fight and don't have magical healing abilities. No fair!
I don't think anyone is saying they need it because of that.
At least I'm not.
What I'm saying is I would like to be able to build a 'healer' Eidelon, someone to take the place of a heal-bot. Why? Because people don't like playing Heal-bot, but an Eidelon healer could be a nice compromise allowing someone to play a healer and a buffer/etc.
well as cha is one of the prime stats for the summoner just pack a few healing scrolls for emergencies. the share spells ability works great for this.
I can see the argument as the summoner is just a druid with a more powerful animal companion and a weaker spell list/special abilities, but I think the summoner as an arcane caster should not have the heal spells.
well as cha is one of the prime stats for the summoner just pack a few healing scrolls for emergencies. the share spells ability works great for this.
I can see the argument as the summoner is just a druid with a more powerful animal companion and a weaker spell list/special abilities, but I think the summoner as an arcane caster should not have the heal spells.
Not the summoner. The Eidelon. Imagine an Eidelon from the Positive Energy plane, able to channel it's own essence to heal those around it rather than being a combat monster.
Actually that's a pretty cool idea. I sometimes let people take Leadership in order to have a cleric channel monkey if nobody wants to play one.
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Yeah, and fighters should get fast healing, too. Because they are always right there in the fight and don't have magical healing abilities. No fair!
Not what i said at all. The Eidolon is basically acting as a 6th wheel and is required for the summoner to be effective. Due to this, if both the Eidolon and its summoner are taking damage, the party healer is going to run low on resources. It makes sense to me that if someone summons something as a permanent companion, and that companion is going to engage in combat, they should be able to heal it.
Druids, Rangers, and Paladins all have a means with which to heal their companion. Sorcerers and wizards do not, but their familiars are generally going to be fulfilling a utility type role rather than a combat role IMHO (unless they improve familiar, etc.). They can life drain or w/e that ability is, but it seems to me to be more of an "OH SH!T" button type ability rather than something that is going to be used all the time.
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well as cha is one of the prime stats for the summoner just pack a few healing scrolls for emergencies. the share spells ability works great for this.
I can see the argument as the summoner is just a druid with a more powerful animal companion and a weaker spell list/special abilities, but I think the summoner as an arcane caster should not have the heal spells.
As a side note, Bard has heal spells, and is an arcane caster. The reason I feel Summoner could use cure spells, is the same reason, the Summoner's Spell List is a "support" spell list, similar to the Bard. I can live without it, but I just think it would help in a party role. As a standalone, the Summoner is fine, but as a party member... I'm not too sure.
Having 2 targets instead of 1 just means the damage is being spread out more, not that there is more damage. Not to mention the utility of having two sets of actions (with Summoner spells of general use to the party at large), means fights may well end MORE quickly with a Summoner and Eidolon than otherwise, reducing total damage/ need for healing.
And for consistency's sake, shouldn't the Cavalier also get healing abilities for their full-Druid-level Companion Mount? Their Class Abilities centered around Mounted Combat suggest that Mount certainly is going to be seeing use in combat, as opposed to 'utility familiar', so I don't see how their need for healing is any different. Yet I don't see that happening, and am more or less fine with that situation.
Like people say: U.M.D.
Having 2 targets instead of 1 just means the damage is being spread out more, not that there is more damage.
Fireball disagrees with you.
I like the idea of being able to summon forth a healbot to help the party. Sure at higher levels you can summon the good creatures for it with all your SLA's but that's a lot higher.
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For the most part, the Eidolon will be taking damage instead of the Summmoner (ie. scared summoner hides while eidolon smashes stuff), and in case you haven't noticed, the healer in most cases won't be wasting healing resources since (at least in my party) the cleric uses his channel energy to heal the group more often than Cure X Wounds spells. So when the party cleric can channel 6 times a day (more if they pick up Extra Channeling) for a handful of d6, it's not a big issue. Also, it's not quite as detrimental to the party if big E bites the dust, because he comes back tomorrow for free. Sure, it'll suck when you have to either stop adventuring or be useless for the rest of the day, but at least it wasn't the fighter that took that critical hit from the greataxe-wielding Minotaur.
I can see the argument as the summoner is just a druid with a more powerful animal companion and a weaker spell list/special abilities, but I think the summoner as an arcane caster should not have the heal spells.
As a side note, Bard has heal spells, and is an arcane caster. The reason I feel Summoner could use cure spells, is the same reason, the Summoner's Spell List is a "support" spell list, similar to the Bard. I can live without it, but I just think it would help in a party role. As a standalone, the Summoner is fine, but as a party member... I'm not too sure.
Witch has heal spells and Arcane spells too!
I can see the argument as the summoner is just a druid with a more powerful animal companion and a weaker spell list/special abilities, but I think the summoner as an arcane caster should not have the heal spells.Witch has heal spells and Arcane spells too!
As a side note, Bard has heal spells, and is an arcane caster. The reason I feel Summoner could use cure spells, is the same reason, the Summoner's Spell List is a "support" spell list, similar to the Bard. I can live without it, but I just think it would help in a party role. As a standalone, the Summoner is fine, but as a party member... I'm not too sure.
Personally I do not count bards as any sort of caster (they are an insult to arcane casters everywhere)
I will need to look at the witch over some more before I pass judgment.
If you want your Summoner to heal, summon a good-aligned Outsider or a Unicorn. All Unicorns and most Good Outsiders on the summon list have healing spells of varying strengths and frequencies.
If you want your Summoner to heal, summon a good-aligned Outsider or a Unicorn. All Unicorns and most Good Outsiders on the summon list have healing spells of varying strengths and frequencies.
Agreed, those are great. But, I would love to have an Eidelon that is not a combat monster but is instead a healer type.
*sigh*
I'm guessing I'll have to make up my own evolutions and base forms for this. Not that that is a huge issue. If it works well, I'll either post it on PathfinderDB or if I have free time and can find some publicly licensed art I'll put it into a PDF and sell it maybe. :)
Something along the lines of breaking base forms up by plane of origin (elemental vs positive energy vs negative energy vs shadow).
To make the Eidolon a heal-bot, you could spend the evolutions to stack up cure spells as SLA's, provided the DM allows you to choose cure spells from the Bard arcane list or Cleric/Druid list(which is not allowed, RAW).
No, you couldn't. You can only take the Spell-Like Ability evolution once.
Yeah, I do agree that the SLA evolution should be multiple-enabled. It's expensive enough, especially with Eidolons' low Cha, that you're never going to get a truly powerful caster out of it, so if someone wants to make a weak caster out of it, more power to them.
If you want your Summoner to heal, summon a good-aligned Outsider or a Unicorn. All Unicorns and most Good Outsiders on the summon list have healing spells of varying strengths and frequencies.
Hmm am I missing something I don't see a unicorn on summon monster list? I am currently up to 4th level summon monsters and none of them could heal so far. The only one that can sorta heal is the hound archon and that can cast aid.
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As most of the damage will be coming from the Eidolon, and the summoner will provide more of the utility, the Eidolon is going to be engaged in combat and taking damage...effectively adding 1 member to the party to further tax what are usually very strained healing resources.
My suggestion is either add heal spells to summoner spell list or give them an additional SLA that allows them to use heal/cure spells x/day but only on their Eidolon. I think this would reduce the strain on a party's healers while supporting the summoner's utility/Eidolon buffer role.
I really disagree with a number of replies here. Looking at the Summoner we see a support character that fills damage and buffing. This is different then the support characters with healing and buffing (clerics, druids and bards; obviously the flexibility of these classes allows for good damage as well, nothing like a sorcerer, wizard or summoner).
The summoner has a focus of a conjuration wizard/sorcerer with extra "Bam" with the Eidolon. The Eidolon and the summoner already pose a question of game balance as they are VERY powerful together. Also please keep in that there is a life link between the summoner and the Eidolon so the Eidolon can stay in the fight longer. This makes the summoner a very potent addition to a party where little support is needed for the duo. Add powerful Monster Summon abilities laster on which can add large variety of creatures the summoner is very well equipped to be a strong support character, not a healer or anything even close to a healer.
I like the spell selection for the summoner; well balanced for what the class is. The only thing in question is the Eidolon from my point of view; the evolutions do make it very powerful.
If you want your Summoner to heal, summon a good-aligned Outsider or a Unicorn. All Unicorns and most Good Outsiders on the summon list have healing spells of varying strengths and frequencies.Hmm am I missing something I don't see a unicorn on summon monster list?
Sorry, it seems I was remembering them being on the 3.5 SNA list and transposing that to the PF SM list for some reason.
Sorry, it seems I was remembering them being on the 3.5 SNA list and transposing that to the PF SM list for some reason.If you want your Summoner to heal, summon a good-aligned Outsider or a Unicorn. All Unicorns and most Good Outsiders on the summon list have healing spells of varying strengths and frequencies.Hmm am I missing something I don't see a unicorn on summon monster list?
No problem it happens to all of us.
Having 2 targets instead of 1 just means the damage is being spread out more, not that there is more damage.
yes and no. in terms of single target attacks, certainly, but not when it comes to AoE.
It's Bralani at SM V you wanted. Cure Serious Wounds 2/day, CL6
EDIT: Gahele at SM IX get CLW at will. Just need to get to there...
No, I knew those were on the list (also lillends at SM7 and astral devas at SM9).
The question was about unicorns, which were on the 3.5 summon nature's ally list at tier 4 and 9, but aren't on any summoning list in Pathfinder.
As most of the damage will be coming from the Eidolon, and the summoner will provide more of the utility, the Eidolon is going to be engaged in combat and taking damage...effectively adding 1 member to the party to further tax what are usually very strained healing resources.
My suggestion is either add heal spells to summoner spell list or give them an additional SLA that allows them to use heal/cure spells x/day but only on their Eidolon. I think this would reduce the strain on a party's healers while supporting the summoner's utility/Eidolon buffer role.
Agreed, it fits with the concept of a buffer, and it's not a far reach, the bard, from which the spell progression was drawn, also has cure spells. it would be added to the list of possible known, as a free-be, and that makes it a perfect fit. it would make up for the moving up of the other spells and kinda balance out the class.