What if you cast MV on a pair of Bracers of armor?
Bracers of armor are no more armor than the mage armor spell, so I'd say no. They're wondrous items, for one, and also there's no armor entry for them in the Core Rulebook. Whether or not I'd allow this, personally, I probably would (because I like having a decent AC too).
Mage Armor is a force effect that provides a +4 armor bonus to AC. It does not count as a suit of armor per say.
Magic Vestments at +1 per 4 level enhancement bonus to existing armor, clothing or shields. As such they provide an adjustment to existing armor bonuses.
Armor bonuses do not stack from multiple sources, thus you need to choose 1 armor bonus or another.
By a similar token magic vestments can't boost Shield spells.
Now if someone wants to cast magical vestments on a buckler while they maintain mage armor on his body then those effects would obviously stack.
I personally wouldn't let MV stack with MA, and as RAW it is a bit murky
Not murky at all. RAW they clearly and certainly cannot stack.
What difference does it make? If a wizard wants magic vestment cast on his mage armor, then he's getting into melee too often and will probably be killed soon anyway, extra bonus or not. If a monk is getting both, well, he needs all the help he can get. Even if the RAW would seem to prohibit it (although the length of this thread shows that isn't quite so cut-and-dried as the "no way!" people think), is there any harm at all in allowing it?
Well part of the balancing factor for being a god-like controller... err Wizard is that you get to be the squishy target in return for that real ultimate power. While the benefit to wizards is not immense over the course of a career that marginal increase in AC probably results in fewer hits and fewer HPs of damage taken. That means increased caster lifespan and easier encounters.
Besides a mithral buckler is already a desirable investment for a wizard and can receive magic vestment bonuses so the wizard should just get one already.
I personally wouldn't let MV stack with MA, and as RAW it is a bit murkyNot murky at all. RAW they clearly and certainly cannot stack.
If you could point where it clearly states so, I'd be grateful.
I thinks enhancing a MA with a MV is stretching the interpretation of RaW and probably not as intended (as far as I can conceive), but I couldn't find any part of RAW that CLEARLY say they cannot stack.
At best, it depends on the definition of "suit or armor", which is left to the interpretation of the reader.
'findel
Maybe compare it to a similar combination.
Not a rock and magic weapon, because that isn't similar. That compares more to clothes and magic vestment.
Flame blade and greater magic weapon?
Spiritual weapon or spiritual ally and greater magic weapon?
I would not allow any of those. Or is there a weapon spell that is more similar to mage armor that anyone would allow greater magic weapon on?
Shooting in my own foot here, because I asked our gm this same question and he lurks these forums, searching for answers. But fair is fair. ;-)
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Magic vestment does give an enhancement bonus, but it is not an enhancement bonus to AC, it is an enhancement bonus to the armour bonus provided by a suit of armour (or set of clothes with a starting armour bonus of +0) or an enhancement bonus to the shield bonus provided to a shield; the enhancement bonus makes your armour/shield bonus bigger.
When you wear a +3 breastplate, wearing it does not give you +6 to AC from the armour bonus of the breastplate and a +3 enhancement bonus from the magic! Wearing it gives you a single +9 armour bonus from the magical breastplate.
Therefore, any other armour bonus (such as the +4 armour bonus from mage armour) does not stack.
Spells which have the 'Target' line in their stat block may only be cast on a viable target. Different spells have different viable targets because they have different things written in that 'Target' line.
You can cast permanency on a wall of force not because the wall is or isn't an object that exists but because permanency has 'see text' in its 'Target' line and wall of force in the text. Some spells affect other spells, but only if that spell is a viable target.
Magic vestment has the target 'armour or shield touched'. The text of the spell allows 'an outfit of regular clothing' to count as armour for the purpose of this spell.
So, for a mage armour spell to be a viable target it would have to be a shield (we can agree that it isn't), an 'outfit of regular clothing' (which we can agree that it isn't) or, as it says in the text of magic vestment, a 'suit of armour...'.
So, does mage armour conjure or create a 'suit of armour'?
An invisible but tangible field of force surrounds the subject...
No it doesn't. A 'field of force' is, well, a force field. Not a 'suit of armour'.
Getting caught up in a semantic argument doesn't help your case. What is and is not a "suit of armor" is entirely subjective and not determined by RAW, especially when the spell itself points out that regular clothing can be used for the purpose of the spell.
Think about it this way: Person A has an invisible suit of armor. Person B has Mage Armor. If you attack Person A, it seems as if your blows hit something and slide off without reaching them. If you attack Person B and the same thing happens, is there any real difference between the two?
Personally, I find myself swayed by the fact that Mage Armor has Armor in it's title, so by definition it must be Armor.
Plus, it's a conjuration [creation] effect that creates something that is, in fact tangible, and does in fact, work to deflect blows--i.e. it does everything armor is supposed to do...which is more than can be said for an outfit of clothing.
It's seems like most people against the idea are just undergoing a knee-jerk reaction to perceived smelly cheese.
I'd say that the best counter-argument as to why Mage Armor can't be enchanted this way is that it isn't listed under Paizo's "Armor and Shields" category. However, neither is a plain set of clothes, and Magic Vestment works on that. You could argue that specific trumps general, but there is no actual general rule that says that all possible targets have to be under the "Armor and Shields" category in the first place (if there was a general rule, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion).
On the other hand, I do not believe enchanting a shirt as armor with Magic Vestment stacks with Mage Armor, since you can only have 1 armor bonus to AC active at a time. Otherwise, you could wear 2 pieces of armor, say a +1 Fortification Ghost Touch etc. Armor and a +5 Haramaki and basically get lots of armor special abilities for free while breaking the +10 item limit.
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Personally, I find myself swayed by the fact that Mage Armor has Armor in it's title, so by definition it must be Armor.
Personally, I find myself swayed by the fact that the spell antilife shell has 'shell' in its title, so by definition it's made out of the shells of deceased sea creatures, and as such can be the subject of any spell which increases natural armour.
Getting caught up in a semantic argument doesn't help your case. What is and is not a "suit of armor" is entirely subjective and not determined by RAW, especially when the spell itself points out that regular clothing can be used for the purpose of the spell.
Umm, yes it is. As written, a field of force is not a suit of armor. RAW remains in tact. You are arguing RAI.
Think about it this way: Person A has an invisible suit of armor. Person B has Mage Armor. If you attack Person A, it seems as if your blows hit something and slide off without reaching them. If you attack Person B and the same thing happens, is there any real difference between the two?
Personally, I find myself swayed by the fact that Mage Armor has Armor in it's title, so by definition it must be Armor.
Getting caught up in a semantic argument doesn't help your case.
Plus, it's a conjuration [creation] effect that creates something that is, in fact tangible, and does in fact, work to deflect blows--i.e. it does everything armor is supposed to do...which is more than can be said for an outfit of clothing.
It's seems like most people against the idea are just undergoing a knee-jerk reaction to perceived smelly cheese.
It being tangible has nothing to do with it deflecting blows. Deflection bonuses don't exist tangibly, and they deflect blows also.
I'd say that the best counter-argument as to why Mage Armor can't be enchanted this way is that it isn't listed under Paizo's "Armor and Shields" category. However, neither is a plain set of clothes, and Magic Vestment works on that. You could argue that specific trumps general, but there is no actual general rule that says that all possible targets have to be under the "Armor and Shields" category in the first place (if there was a general rule, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion).
Umm, there doesn't need to be a general rule because it specifically says the valid target is a suit of armor or shield touched, and then there is specific text that allows for a set of clothing.
On the other hand, I do not believe enchanting a shirt as armor with Magic Vestment stacks with Mage Armor, since you can only have 1 armor bonus to AC active at a time. Otherwise, you could wear 2 pieces of armor, say a +1 Fortification Ghost Touch etc. Armor and a +5 Haramaki and basically get lots of armor special abilities for free while breaking the +10 item limit.
Actually, I'm pretty sure this is close to legal. Let's say someone has Bracers of Armor on with some specific enchantments on it, and also is wearing a chain shirt that is +5. They get their +9 for the chain shirt, but do not gain the minimum required +1 from the bracers, but they would gain the special ability of the armor because it is equipped and is not occupying the same magic item slot.
Actually, I'm pretty sure this is close to legal. Let's say someone has Bracers of Armor on with some specific enchantments on it, and also is wearing a chain shirt that is +5. They get their +9 for the chain shirt, but do not gain the minimum required +1 from the bracers, but they would gain the special ability of the armor because it is equipped and is not occupying the same magic item slot.
Alternatively, bracers of armor can be enchanted with armor special abilities. See Table 15–4 for a list of abilities. Special abilities usually count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of an item, but do not improve AC. Bracers of armor cannot have a modified bonus (armor bonus plus armor special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +8. Bracers of armor must have at least a +1 armor bonus to grant an armor special ability. Bracers of armor cannot have any armor special abilities that add a flat gp amount to their cost. Bracers of armor and ordinary armor do not stack. If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning.
You cannot wear a Chain Shirt and Bracers of Armor and get the special abilities from the Bracers of Armor at the same time you get the AC bonus from the Chain Shirt.
Actually, I'm pretty sure this is close to legal. Let's say someone has Bracers of Armor on with some specific enchantments on it, and also is wearing a chain shirt that is +5. They get their +9 for the chain shirt, but do not gain the minimum required +1 from the bracers, but they would gain the special ability of the armor because it is equipped and is not occupying the same magic item slot.Alternatively, bracers of armor can be enchanted with armor special abilities. See Table 15–4 for a list of abilities. Special abilities usually count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of an item, but do not improve AC. Bracers of armor cannot have a modified bonus (armor bonus plus armor special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +8. Bracers of armor must have at least a +1 armor bonus to grant an armor special ability. Bracers of armor cannot have any armor special abilities that add a flat gp amount to their cost. Bracers of armor and ordinary armor do not stack. If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning.You cannot wear a Chain Shirt and Bracers of Armor and get the special abilities from the Bracers of Armor at the same time you get the AC bonus from the Chain Shirt.
Thank god!!