I would assume that the summoner will have some unique spells also which will help.
Am I the only one who doesn't see how people can properly play test new classes without access to the new spells that the classes may have access to?
There doesn't seem to be any restriction on summoning evil creatures. Why can't you summon whatever?
There doesn't seem to be any restriction on summoning evil creatures. Why can't you summon whatever?
It may have been something I read for Clerics once and not really matter for anyone else.
With a few exceptions (haste being one), the original spell list worked well thematically and gave appropriate spells at the appropriate levels. You are right that it screws up a lot of things, and I don't see an easy answer to that. Ultimately this just shines a light on some rather frustrating limitations of the whole spell level system (and by extension magic item pricing system). The bard has similar issues but since it gets around that to some extent by using unique bard spells.
I give the bard, ranger and paladin a pass because they have to be (substantially) compatible with 3.5. There's not really an excuse for giving the summoner a non-standard batch of spells.
I kind of like what Monte Cook did in Arcana Evolved. There are two spell progressions ("wizard-like" and "bard-like"), everyone uses the same spell list (split into simple, complex and exotic spells), and different classes have better access to certain types of spells (e.g. a Greenbond has access to all plant spells and an Iron Witch has access to all earth spells). Much neater, IMO.
Nope. If you're True Neutral, your Eidolon cannot take the Damage Reduction evolution. The DR must be of an alignment opposite of yours. The only possible way to get DR/good on your Eidolon is to be Evil.Play a neutral summoner and you can choose what ever alignment DR you want since it has no opposite.
Sorry unless it specifically states you can't then you can pick what ever you want just like a neutral summoner can summon celestial or fiendish creatures or a neutral cleric can choose to inflict or heal.
I would also argue all alignments are in opposition of neutral.
Go to alignment chart
I would also argue all alignments are in opposition of neutral.
You can argue it until you're blue in the face, it doesn't change that in D&D, Neutral has no opposing alignment. "No opposing alignment" does not mean "you get to choose the opposing alignment".
Sorry unless it specifically states you can't then you can pick what ever you want just like a neutral summoner can summon celestial or fiendish creatures or a neutral cleric can choose to inflict or heal.
Irrelevant analogies. You're inverting the relationship.
A character cannot cast a spell with an alignment descriptor if he has an alignment opposed to that descriptor.
An Eidolon can only take the DR evolution if he has an alignment opposed to the DR he chooses.
Notice the difference there? In the case of the spells (and the cleric), the key is not opposing. Neutral fulfills that because Neutral does not oppose any alignment. In the case of the DR evolution, the key is opposing. You have to have at least one extreme alignment (one that has an opposite, ie Lawful, Chaotic, Good, or Evil) in order to have an opposing alignment, and you must have an opposing alignment to take the DR evolution.
Sorry unless it specifically states you can't then you can pick what ever you want just like a neutral summoner can summon celestial or fiendish creatures or a neutral cleric can choose to inflict or healUm, there IS a difference between "must be opposed" and "cannot be opposed" besides the positive/negative.
In the former, the condition must be met. No other solution will work.
In the latter, the condition cannot be met. Any solution that does not meet the conditon is acceptable.
The latter is far broader. Thus, a true neutral cleric can cast [Good] and [Evil] spells, since neither are opposed to his alignment, but a true neutral summoner CANNOT choose an Eidolon to have DR/Good or Evil or Law or Chaos since none of these are opposed to his alignment.
Zurai is correct on this one.
So if a new player creates a Neutral "Elemental" type summoner. Then basically you are saying they are screwed because none of their attacks become aligned or their DR evolutions will work.
That is a poor design. This class has some very hokey rules to fit some of its design.
So if a new player creates a Neutral "Elemental" type summoner. Then basically you are saying they are screwed because none of their attacks become aligned or their DR evolutions will work.That is a poor design. This class has some very hokey rules to fit some of its design.
There is a breakdown of sorts because of the neutral, but, it's not that big a deal. For the element summoner you are envisioning, as a GM, I'd say that DR 10/Cold would be fine for a fire elemental, or DR 10/Electricity for an Earth elemental (Basically putting the elements as opposed, fire vs water, air vs earth). It would be a house rule, but it certainly preserves the spirit of the DR.
As to aligned, same thing, a fire elemental would take energy (fire) evolution at 5th to have his attacks 'aligned' with his nature.
It felt appropriate to cross post the following...
The summoner and his eidolon are not equal to...
...a cleric with the animal domain and his animal companion...
...a druid and his animal companion...
...a paladin and his mount...
...a ranger with his animal companion...
...a wizard with summon and calling spells...
...a wizard with animate undead/create undead/create greater undead spells......so one must wonder why the class exists at all. It has weaker spellcasting than most other classes, weaker combat ability, and a an eidolon which is roughly on par with animal companions (the latter of which have more HD, but not as many cool abilities).
I imagine, the way its going, most people won't want to play the class very often because they aren't playing the summoner so much as they are playing the eidolon itself. The summoner ends up just being there in a support role (and we all know how support roles, such as the cleric, are often looked over in favor of "an action class").
So you're saying you can't find a way to enjoy a caster that has a nice buff spell selection, an awesomely powerful pet, and can always summon the equivalent or better than the ranger/paladin/druid/cleric animal companion in addition to to Eidolon?
Essentially when you play the summoner, you get two characters instead of one. One is a good buffer, the other can be an awesome combat monster, with open access to all the bestiary feats.
As far as the changes go, all I can say is: Congratulations, you're no longer overpowered!
Oh I'm sure I could find a way to have fun with it, but that has nothing to do with balance.
What I'm trying to say is that, as a complete package, the summoner/eidolon duo is weaker than many other duos you can get with the core classes already (some have misinterpreted my statement to mean that eidolons are weaker than other kinds of companion creatures, which isn't really true).
Everyone who has ever used a Silent or Stilled spell in combat, please raise your hand.
All the freaking time. My sorcerer sneaks around battles with invisibility/gaseous form using ventriloquism and silent spell to keep the enemy from finding her. Combine that with other party members being a more immediate visible threat and she rarely ends up in any real trouble as a result.
Even in 1 on 1 battles this tactic allows her to wear down her adversary with continuous summon spells before finishing them off and becoming visible.
She also drives the party's wagon. If a fight breaks out she plays the role of the noncombatant wagon driver (acting much in the same way many hirelings might) all the while using stilled/silented spells to blast her enemies. Being venerable, few attackers see her as the real threat (especially with her high Bluff/Disguise and more obviously threatening allies).
Out of combat it's even better, silent/stilled charm person or bestow curse (with a friendly handshake) and the only thing suspicious for the victim is a "mental tingle." Few equate that with a hostile spell attack and instead believe it to be the possible beginnings of a headache. She gets away with a LOT due to this trick.
A character cannot cast a spell with an alignment descriptor if he has an alignment opposed to that descriptor.
Quick nitpick -- That part isn't true... a cleric or druid can't but any other caster can.
Point.
[...] That is a poor design. [...]
No this is good design. NN is one of those alignment that you pick to avoid spells and effects based on alignment. Suck as protection from Good or Holy smite. Powergamers got smacked. I love it.
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So if a new player creates a Neutral "Elemental" type summoner. Then basically you are saying they are screwed because none of their attacks become aligned or their DR evolutions will work.
That is a poor design. This class has some very hokey rules to fit some of its design.
No, there are benefits to being neutral also, you are not affected by spells that target good/ evil. Protection for Good, Blasphemy, etc. Also, an unholy sword does not work on you. As has been pointed out you can pick and choose good and evil spells to cast and more items are accessible to you.
If you want to sidestep all the alignment disadvantages then you don't get the benefits either. So when the eidolon with gets attacked with a +1 unholy greatsword yours doesn't have DR but it doesn't take unholy damage either. If you want to powergame it then I suggest you play Chaotic Neutral because there are fewer Axiomatic blades out there than unholy blades ;)
I for one am very happy with the spell list changes, and commend paizo for the updated summoner. After playtesting it as an NPC for my party, I can say that they were ridiculously overpowered, and the changes brought them in line nicely.
Took me some time to find the spell list as the text says it's on page 12, while in reality it's on page 50. The page numbers weren't updated when all the classes were compiled into one PDF.
Took me some time to find the spell list as the text says it's on page 12, while in reality it's on page 50. The page numbers weren't updated when all the classes were compiled into one PDF.
I suggest you to download the pdf again, since Jason updated the APG with some errata just today (page references have been fixed, and so on).
You can find a short list of the changes here
To check if the file is the correct one, its size should be 6.34 MB (the precedent version was around 5.9 MB).
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I for one am very happy with the spell list changes, and commend paizo for the updated summoner. After playtesting it as an NPC for my party, I can say that they were ridiculously overpowered, and the changes brought them in line nicely.
They were pretty crazy at the levels I tested them. My feeling is this is pulling back a bit too much but I haven't had a chance to play them under the new rules.