Massive Summoner Spell List Changes


Advanced Player's Guide Playtest: Final Playtest

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Zurai wrote:
Vaellen wrote:
I like the change. The summoner was a viable class on its own.
No, it wasn't. It was worse than a Druid or Cleric in every single way. 100%, flat worse. In not a single way was it better or even equal.

Uh, say again? What 2nd level druid spell is as good as Haste, Invisibility or Slow?

My two cents: if the summoner's eidolon is roughly as good as the druid's animal companion, then the summoner's casting+abilities should be roughly as good as the druid's


Cartigan wrote:
Mirror, Mirror wrote:


And I HAVE used both silent and still in-game, mostly to cast stealthly and confuse the enemy.
In combat was my point.

Yes, in combat. I am hidden and do not want to give away my position, so I created an illusory "me" somewhere else and cast silent to distract the enemy from my true position. The 2+ rounds it usually took themn to figure out I wasn't there divided their effort and allowed us to concentrate out efforts.

Admittedly, this WAS with an illusionist...


Mirror, Mirror wrote:


Yes, in combat. I am hidden and do not want to give away my position, so I created an illusory "me" somewhere else and cast silent to distract the enemy from my true position. The 2+ rounds it usually took themn to figure out I wasn't there divided their effort and allowed us to concentrate out efforts.

Admittedly, this WAS with an illusionist...

You were hiding during combat?


hogarth wrote:
Uh, say again? What 2nd level druid spell is as good as Haste, Invisibility or Slow?

mass snake's swiftness (admittedly non-Core), tree shape, fog cloud.

Quote:
My two cents: if the summoner's eidolon is roughly as good as the druid's animal companion, then the summoner's casting+abilities should be roughly as good as the druid's

That's a fair statement. I think the Eidolon is a bit stronger than animal companions (not a TON, but certainly measurably stronger), which means the Summoner needs to be an equivalent amount weaker than the Druid at casting and abilities. Unfortunately, a companion-less Druid blows the hell out of an Eidolon-less Summoner. Better casting, equivalent armor, better weapons, better class abilities even ignoring Wild Shape.

Dark Archive

Cartigan wrote:
meabolex wrote:


Silent Summon Monster III was a good 4th level spell slot at level 7. It created an effective opponent that had to be dealt with at the level -- but did so in a way that greatly accelerated battle tempo to the caster's...
Everyone who has ever used a Silent or Stilled spell in combat, please raise your hand.

Here. It's the bomb. DM HATED it. ^_^


Cartigan wrote:
Mirror, Mirror wrote:


Yes, in combat. I am hidden and do not want to give away my position, so I created an illusory "me" somewhere else and cast silent to distract the enemy from my true position. The 2+ rounds it usually took themn to figure out I wasn't there divided their effort and allowed us to concentrate out efforts.
Admittedly, this WAS with an illusionist...
You were hiding during combat?

Well, YEAH! Wizards kind of DO that. Invisibility spells, flying, etc. I had some hide skill, I used it, and participated by using illusions to distract and confuse enemies.

And I dare say Summoners will do the same with summons, so having a SLA vs a normal spell is a nice boon.


Mirror, Mirror wrote:


And I dare say Summoners will do the same with summons, so having a SLA vs a normal spell is a nice boon.

SLA vs a normal spell is ALWAYS a nice boon.

Still, the point is made Still and Silent is used in combat, but it is obviously utility at best and whether utility or not, it is significantly based on the DM's style. ie, not something to get your panties in a twist over.


Cartigan wrote:
Mirror, Mirror wrote:


And I dare say Summoners will do the same with summons, so having a SLA vs a normal spell is a nice boon.

SLA vs a normal spell is ALWAYS a nice boon.

Still, the point is made Still and Silent is used in combat, but it is obviously utility at best and whether utility or not, it is significantly based on the DM's style. ie, not something to get your panties in a twist over.

Oh yes, I agree that it is not OP in the least. You merly asked for someone who HAD used it in combat, and I felt obliged to answer.

The reason it's not OP is the restriction of it being 1 at a time. 7 summons on the field at once is a pretty powerful force to reckon with. 1 is just not. Useful in tandem with the party, but not OP. You could give them UNLIMITED use of the SLA and it still would not significantly affect combat operations.


Mirror, Mirror wrote:


The reason it's not OP is the restriction of it being 1 at a time. 7 summons on the field at once is a pretty powerful force to reckon with. 1 is just not. Useful in tandem with the party, but not OP. You could give them UNLIMITED use of the SLA and it still would not significantly affect combat operations.

And that ignores the fact that Summon Monster is heavily weighted for Evil characters.


Cartigan wrote:
Mirror, Mirror wrote:


The reason it's not OP is the restriction of it being 1 at a time. 7 summons on the field at once is a pretty powerful force to reckon with. 1 is just not. Useful in tandem with the party, but not OP. You could give them UNLIMITED use of the SLA and it still would not significantly affect combat operations.
And that ignores the fact that Summon Monster is heavily weighted for Evil characters.

??

Pleant of stuff for the good characters in the spell, if that's what you mean.

If you mean the smite feature, it all depends what you are fighting and what the alignment of the party usually is.


Mirror, Mirror wrote:
The reason it's not OP is the restriction of it being 1 at a time.

Where is this mentioned at? Not the description of the ability? Did I miss the text?

Summon Monster I:
(Sp): Starting at 1st level, a summoner
can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number
of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. He
can cast this spell as a standard action and the creatures
remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per
level). At 3rd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the power
of this ability increases by one spell level, allowing him
to summon more powerful creatures (to a maximum
of summon monster IX at 17th level). At 19th level, this
ability can be used as gate or summon monster IX. If used
as gate, the summoner must pay any required material
components.


meabolex wrote:
Mirror, Mirror wrote:
The reason it's not OP is the restriction of it being 1 at a time.

Where is this mentioned at? Not the description of the ability? Did I miss the text?

** spoiler omitted **

Link

I havn't checked the PDF personally, but I know the d20pfsrd.com has not been updated with everything.


It helps if you read the whole ability:

Quote:

Summon Monster I (Sp): Starting at 1st level, a summoner

can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number
of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. He
can cast this spell as a standard action and the creatures
remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per
level). At 3rd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the power
of this ability increases by one spell level, allowing him
to summon more powerful creatures (to a maximum
of summon monster IX at 17th level). At 19th level, this ability can be used as gate or summon monster IX. If used
as gate, the summoner must pay any required material
components. A summoner cannot have more than one
summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one time.
If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster
or gate immediately ends.


meabolex wrote:
Mirror, Mirror wrote:
The reason it's not OP is the restriction of it being 1 at a time.

Where is this mentioned at? Not the description of the ability? Did I miss the text?

** spoiler omitted **

Right after the section you quoted:

"A summoner cannot have more than one
summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one time.
If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster
or gate immediately ends."

EDIT: Grr! Ninja'd by Zurai!


Uh, I quoted all the rules. . .

Have you downloaded the latest pdf?

OHHHH I think I see what happened -- lol I accidentally had the previous version of the pdf. . . my bad (:

Quote:
It helps if you read the whole ability:

I *did* read the whole thing (: I just read the wrong file q:

Well. . . considering that. . . it's better than I was implying. I thought that the change from rounds per level back to minutes per level also included lifting the restriction on number of SM casts you could have at once (thanks pdf ridiculousness).

That's a lot more reasonable. Considering that plus the nerf to the spell list, I'm happy. My apologies for the file mixup X:

Shadow Lodge

Cartigan wrote:
Everyone who has ever used a Silent or Stilled spell in combat, please raise your hand.
A silent stilled wall of force keep the wizard from just walking away. This sounds kind of like not in combat.

Except we were in combat at the time, and he could have just walked away to keep us from full-attacking him.


Dragonborn3 wrote:
Except we were in combat at the time, and he could have just walked away to keep us from full-attacking him.

I don't see why it had Still and Silent applied.

Shadow Lodge

Zurai wrote:

It helps if you read the whole ability:

Quote:

Summon Monster I (Sp): Starting at 1st level, a summoner

can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number
of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. He
can cast this spell as a standard action and the creatures
remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per
level). At 3rd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the power
of this ability increases by one spell level, allowing him
to summon more powerful creatures (to a maximum
of summon monster IX at 17th level). At 19th level, this ability can be used as gate or summon monster IX. If used
as gate, the summoner must pay any required material
components. A summoner cannot have more than one
summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one time.
If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster
or gate immediately ends.

This has no effect on actual spells mind you, just the SLAs.

SLA + Spell still works, as does Spell + Spell


Dragonborn3 wrote:
Zurai wrote:

It helps if you read the whole ability:

Quote:

Summon Monster I (Sp): Starting at 1st level, a summoner

can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number
of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. He
can cast this spell as a standard action and the creatures
remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per
level). At 3rd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the power
of this ability increases by one spell level, allowing him
to summon more powerful creatures (to a maximum
of summon monster IX at 17th level). At 19th level, this ability can be used as gate or summon monster IX. If used
as gate, the summoner must pay any required material
components. A summoner cannot have more than one
summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one time.
If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster
or gate immediately ends.

This has no effect on actual spells mind you, just the SLAs.

SLA + Spell still works, as does Spell + Spell

Though the spells arn't really scary any more.

Shadow Lodge

Cartigan wrote:
Though the spells arn't really scary any more.

No, in that respect, Conjurers remain King. Guess the "Wizard's the best, no one should be better" mentality struck again.


Zurai wrote:
hogarth wrote:
Uh, say again? What 2nd level druid spell is as good as Haste, Invisibility or Slow?

mass snake's swiftness (admittedly non-Core), tree shape, fog cloud.

Have to agree here, mass snake's swiftness is a standby for my wife's druid. She casts that usually at least once each combat. She stands back, let's everyone rush up to the badguys and attack, then she casts it centered on the group and they all smash the bad guys again. It's almost as good as getting a free extra surprise round. Last time even had a character throw a table knife and do 2 pts of damage against a bad guy thanks to this. ;)

zurai wrote:


Quote:
My two cents: if the summoner's eidolon is roughly as good as the druid's animal companion, then the summoner's casting+abilities should be roughly as good as the druid's
That's a fair statement. I think the Eidolon is a bit stronger than animal companions (not a TON, but certainly measurably stronger), which means the Summoner needs to be an equivalent amount weaker than the Druid at casting and abilities. Unfortunately, a companion-less Druid blows the hell out of an Eidolon-less Summoner. Better casting, equivalent armor, better weapons, better class abilities even ignoring Wild Shape.

Actually, I'd say the Eidelon can be much more powerful than the animal companion, but it's all based on how it's built, it can also be much weaker in combat as well. The Eidelon is so variable thanks to it's versatility, that you pretty much have to compare them on a case by case basis. I do agree that if you yoink the Eidelon out, a druid of equal level will slaughter the summoner though.

Silver Crusade

Wow, the summoner really got beaten down hard...The loss of Eidolon HD, and this horrible new spell list? Really, it had to be this bad? That's just depressing...I know for the game I'm playing a Summoner in, I'll be going by the old system of doing things rather than this new design. The pitiful new spells in comparison to the raised level of the other spells is just awful. I don't see how it's supposed to compete with other casters now, even partial ones.

I hope that the spells get readjusted before release, as having some of the spells higher level as well as having the only way for you to summon Lv 7+ monsters being with the SLA is just sad...


Summoner needs Summon Monster 7-9 back, what kind of a SUMMONER are you if you can't perform those spells?

Better yet, they should not be spells, they should be spell-like abilities gained at proper levels and usable a certain number of times per day (based on Summoner level).

Personally, I'd say at 1st-level they do Summon Monster I as a spell-like ability 1/day. At 4th and every 4 levels thereafter, you can use it an additional time per day. Caster level equals summoner level. At 3rd-level you can use SM2, 5th can use SM3, etc. all the way to 17th-level for SM9.

So that'll be a 20 Summoner that can use as a spell-like ability 6/day any SM from 1 to 9. What's wrong with that?

Liberty's Edge

Since a few have commented on Eidelon vs. a Druids Animal Companion I thought I'd throw my 2c in. I went through and did a level by level comparison of a quadroped Eidelon, minus any evolutions, against a big cat Animal Companion, taking into account the level 7 adjustment. To make a long story short, without any evolutions, an Eidelon is nearly identical in stats and combat ability as the equivalent Animal Companion. Take it as you will, just wanted to throw it out there.

In response to Razz, they currently have a Spell Like Ability that does just that, lets them use Summon Monster 1-9, then gate, multiple times a day. Don't have the PDF right here so I can't do a direct quote of the ability.

Silver Crusade

Razz wrote:

Summoner needs Summon Monster 7-9 back, what kind of a SUMMONER are you if you can't perform those spells?

Better yet, they should not be spells, they should be spell-like abilities gained at proper levels and usable a certain number of times per day (based on Summoner level).

Personally, I'd say at 1st-level they do Summon Monster I as a spell-like ability 1/day. At 4th and every 4 levels thereafter, you can use it an additional time per day. Caster level equals summoner level. At 3rd-level you can use SM2, 5th can use SM3, etc. all the way to 17th-level for SM9.

So that'll be a 20 Summoner that can use as a spell-like ability 6/day any SM from 1 to 9. What's wrong with that?

What kind of a summoner can only use one at a time? Like the summons are just waiting in a line on another plane saying "Boy, can't wait till Geb dies so I can go out. It sure does suck that we have to wait in line like this, why can't he just bring us all out at once?"

Yeah, the SLA is nice, but not having a chance to do have more than one out is a bit annoying. I mean, I'd have liked to see the Summon Nature's Ally on the summoner's spell list and SLA list as well, but why make his spell listed summons lower level.

By your logic, why does he even get Summon Monster on his spell list? It's just going to be SLA'd anyways. I guess I just like the option of being able to do it more often, to have that little mini mob from both my SLA and spells.

Shadow Lodge

And you can have multiple summoned creatures out when using the SLA, just bring in creatures from a lower list.

Silver Crusade

I'd just like to say this. The original spell list was a little weak to me. Considering the Summoner didn't have a "powerful" spell list I didn't have too many issues with it.

I personally like the concept of the summoner, I just feel it's a bit... "off".

For a caster, the summoner seems "confused". It has a medium base attack, poor spell selection, light armor, and simple weapons. The Eidolon makes up for the weaknesses, but at the same time, it's not enough.

From a Roleplayer stand point, the Summoner enforces what roleplayers do with the druid, they rely on their animal companion as a crutch. Not to say a Druid shouldn't roleplay off of his companion, but most of the time it's "Hi, I'm a druid, and this is my amazing wolf sparkles! Sparkles does this..." It ends up being the player "playing" the companion, with druid there to cast spells.

The summoner has summon monster, after that, what? He could wade into battle, but even then, he's probably gonna get torn up.

Maybe I'm just off because I'm thinking of the summoner as a caster, and I need to think about it as a support class... I don't know... :(

Sovereign Court

Joseph I see the Summoner as allowing a player to play a Monster with its own buff machine and support caster... Many players however will try to tweak out BOTH monster and master and thus many of the changes like sharing item slots.

--Solid, solid as a Vrock!

Scarab Sages

Dragonborn3 wrote:
And you can have multiple summoned creatures out when using the SLA, just bring in creatures from a lower list.

or just cast the summon monster spells as well as the SLA ability although I have to admit that since the spells are lower level than other casters can get at the same time why would you bother ?


Ceefood wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:
And you can have multiple summoned creatures out when using the SLA, just bring in creatures from a lower list.
or just cast the summon monster spells as well as the SLA ability although I have to admit that since the spells are lower level than other casters can get at the same time why would you bother ?

Because lantern archons are nice (great honestly), or you want to get some healing done with one of your summoned monsters... perhaps some dispel magic...

The summoning list for good creatures is absolutely great honestly -- especially for spell like abilities.

BTW I regularly use still and silent spells in combat especially if I can get the means to cast a silence spell myself.

Honestly though this spell list is NOT bad:
1st
Shield, Enlarge person, Grease, Mount, Expeditious Retreat, Unseen Servant, Jump, Reduce Person
2nd
see invisibility, barkskin, resist energy, glitterdust, Alter Self, Phantom Steed
3rd (7th level)
Dimensional Anchor, Haste, Stinking Cloud, Stoneskin, Slow, Greater magic fang, wall of fire
4th (10th level)
greater invisibility, Dimension door, black tentacles, Dismissal, Overland flight (make a wand of it for your friends!), lesser planar binding
5th (13th level)
cloudkill, teleport, true seeing, wall of stone, plane shift
6th (16th level)
Acid fog, Greater planar Binding, spell turning, Greater Dispel magic, Summon monster 6, wall of iron

You have plenty of good buffs and battle field control magic there, in addition to the fact that you have plenty of summoning magic too in the form of spell like abilities.


(wishes Mage's Magnificent Mansion would be added as a 5th Level spell for the Summoner)


Razz wrote:
Summoner needs Summon Monster 7-9 back, what kind of a SUMMONER are you if you can't perform those spells?

He can summon an Eidelon.

He can cast summon monster I-IX as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier.
He can do it as a standrad action
and the creatures remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per level)

Razz wrote:


Better yet, they should not be spells, they should be spell-like abilities gained at proper levels and usable a certain number of times per day (based on Summoner level).

Sigh, they are.

Razz wrote:


Personally, I'd say at 1st-level they do Summon Monster I as a spell-like ability 1/day. At 4th and every 4 levels thereafter, you can use it an additional time per day. Caster level equals summoner level. At 3rd-level you can use SM2, 5th can use SM3, etc. all the way to 17th-level for SM9.

Sigh again. And that's what they do.

Razz wrote:


So that'll be a 20 Summoner that can use as a spell-like ability 6/day any SM from 1 to 9. What's wrong with that?

Nothing except that's what he does.

On top of that he can use his spells du buff his Eidelon and his summons.
He can also use his spells to summon monsters to scout or set of traps or whatever.


Out of curiosity, does anyone know why they changed the spell list like they did? I'm currently withholding judgement until I see it in action, but I wanted to know what might have been the reasoning behind this.


The Weave05 wrote:
Out of curiosity, does anyone know why they changed the spell list like they did? I'm currently withholding judgement until I see it in action, but I wanted to know what might have been the reasoning behind this.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't like reducing spell levels, especially for spells that are very popular to begin with (like Haste, Greater Invisibility or Black Tentacles). It encourages cherry-picking from spell lists, either in terms of wands/scrolls/potions or in terms of (non-core, 3.5) class features that allow grabbing spells from different spells lists. Some people don't have a problem with that, of course.

I'd much rather see summoners get 9 levels' worth of spellcasting if they're intended to get 9th level spells (for instance, like a sorcerer with 1 or 2 fewer spell slots per level).


Zurai wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
@ Zurai: Summoners can cast spells and use magic items too.

Not those spells, they can't.

Quote:
And remember that DR 10/good is pretty much DR 10/-, unless the GM has a fondness for fallen angels and confused eladrins running around.

They probably do if they're running an evil campaign, which is the only way someone's going to get DR/good on an Eidolon. The alignment DRs have to be opposite one facet of the Summoner's alignment. That means to have /good, the Summoner must be Evil. Most games, including Pathfinder Society, prohibit Evil characters. Please stop acting like DR/good is going to be common.

Quote:
Also, hawk ? Really ?
I was thinking "roc", actually.

Play a neutral summoner and you can choose what ever alignment DR you want since it has no opposite.


Nerfing the Eidolon was way over board. Losing the HD at 1st level means your Eidolon will have 6 hps in Pathfinder Society. Druids animal companion can use any amount of magic items, can wear armor and now has more HD. Druid is a much stronger spells caster and has wildshape. Why even play a summoner? Druid is better at everything including summoning.


hogarth wrote:
The Weave05 wrote:
Out of curiosity, does anyone know why they changed the spell list like they did? I'm currently withholding judgement until I see it in action, but I wanted to know what might have been the reasoning behind this.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't like reducing spell levels, especially for spells that are very popular to begin with (like Haste, Greater Invisibility or Black Tentacles). It encourages cherry-picking from spell lists, either in terms of wands/scrolls/potions or in terms of (non-core, 3.5) class features that allow grabbing spells from different spells lists. Some people don't have a problem with that, of course.

I'd much rather see summoners get 9 levels' worth of spellcasting if they're intended to get 9th level spells (for instance, like a sorcerer with 1 or 2 fewer spell slots per level).

Before I was fine with the bard progression but with the changes a summoner spell list it is garbage. You get haste at 7th level and have no damage spells? Come on! It should have sorcerer spell progression to make up for it.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Damage spells are overrated anyway. Black Testicles - check. Teleport - check. Baleful Polymorph - check.

Shadow Lodge

Gorbacz wrote:
Black Testicles - check.

+5 for the misspelling.


Dragonborn3 wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Black Testicles - check.
+5 for the misspelling.

Thats a hell of a spell!

Combined with Grasping Hand you are all powerful against 50% of critters.

EDIT: Would it be wrong to do Bag of Holding and Rod of Splender jokes?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

That was actually intentional. Or rather not - I always call the spell Black Testicles, so I catch myself forgetting what the original name was :)


Mahrdol wrote:

Play a neutral summoner and you can choose what ever alignment DR you want since it has no opposite.

Nope. If you're True Neutral, your Eidolon cannot take the Damage Reduction evolution. The DR must be of an alignment opposite of yours. The only possible way to get DR/good on your Eidolon is to be Evil.


Zurai wrote:
Mahrdol wrote:

Play a neutral summoner and you can choose what ever alignment DR you want since it has no opposite.

Nope. If you're True Neutral, your Eidolon cannot take the Damage Reduction evolution. The DR must be of an alignment opposite of yours. The only possible way to get DR/good on your Eidolon is to be Evil.

Which you might as well be considering the vast majority of monsters on the SM list that have an alignment are evil.

But now that we bring things up, why is the Summoner restricted to to Summon Monster spells? The Druid has 4 completely different summoning spells, and that is excluding the ability to animate plants and turn your staff into a Treant.


Cartigan wrote:

...vast majority of monsters on the SM list that have an alignment are evil.

???

So the neutrals don't have an alignment? What you meant, perhaps, is there are more evil-aligned than good-aligned creatures, right?

And I see +1 evil creature at SMII, +4 evil creatures at SMV, +2 at SMVI, +3 at SMVII, and +2 at SMVIII. That's 12 creatures out of 94, hardly a "vast majority".

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Joseph Davis wrote:
From a Roleplayer stand point, the Summoner enforces what roleplayers do with the druid, they rely on their animal companion as a crutch. Not to say a Druid shouldn't roleplay off of his companion, but most of the time it's "Hi, I'm a druid, and this is my amazing wolf sparkles! Sparkles does this..." It ends up being the player "playing" the companion, with druid there to cast spells.

As it turns out... that's a type of class that actually appeals to a lot of people. The fact that a summoner lets you "play a monster PC" is pretty compelling.


Cartigan wrote:
Zurai wrote:
Mahrdol wrote:

Play a neutral summoner and you can choose what ever alignment DR you want since it has no opposite.

Nope. If you're True Neutral, your Eidolon cannot take the Damage Reduction evolution. The DR must be of an alignment opposite of yours. The only possible way to get DR/good on your Eidolon is to be Evil.

Which you might as well be considering the vast majority of monsters on the SM list that have an alignment are evil.

But now that we bring things up, why is the Summoner restricted to to Summon Monster spells? The Druid has 4 completely different summoning spells, and that is excluding the ability to animate plants and turn your staff into a Treant.

The summoner is relying on extraplanar creatures for his/her power. That means summoning celestial/fiendish/axiomatic/anarchic varieties plus other outsiders.

Further the Druid doesn't have access to the planar binding and gate spells so I think it's pretty much all good.


Mirror, Mirror wrote:
Cartigan wrote:

...vast majority of monsters on the SM list that have an alignment are evil.

???

So the neutrals don't have an alignment? What you meant, perhaps, is there are more evil-aligned than good-aligned creatures, right?

And I see +1 evil creature at SMII, +4 evil creatures at SMV, +2 at SMVI, +3 at SMVII, and +2 at SMVIII. That's 12 creatures out of 94, hardly a "vast majority".

of monsters that have an alignment


vuron wrote:


Further the Druid doesn't have access to the planar binding and gate spells so I think it's pretty much all good.

Planar Bindings arn't really summoning spells.

Shadow Lodge

hogarth wrote:
The Weave05 wrote:
Out of curiosity, does anyone know why they changed the spell list like they did? I'm currently withholding judgement until I see it in action, but I wanted to know what might have been the reasoning behind this.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't like reducing spell levels, especially for spells that are very popular to begin with (like Haste, Greater Invisibility or Black Tentacles). It encourages cherry-picking from spell lists, either in terms of wands/scrolls/potions or in terms of (non-core, 3.5) class features that allow grabbing spells from different spells lists. Some people don't have a problem with that, of course.

I'd much rather see summoners get 9 levels' worth of spellcasting if they're intended to get 9th level spells (for instance, like a sorcerer with 1 or 2 fewer spell slots per level).

With a few exceptions (haste being one), the original spell list worked well thematically and gave appropriate spells at the appropriate levels. You are right that it screws up a lot of things, and I don't see an easy answer to that. Ultimately this just shines a light on some rather frustrating limitations of the whole spell level system (and by extension magic item pricing system). The bard has similar issues but since it gets around that to some extent by using unique bard spells. I would assume that the summoner will have some unique spells also which will help.

The summoner's SLA fairly neatly sidesteps the issue with summons but it has some other issues and limitations and you can't replace all the appropriate spells with SLAs.


Cartigan wrote:
of monsters that have an alignment

Yes, yes, yes, of those that have an alignment subtype, there are more evil ones, which make up less than 1/4 of all the possibilities.

Just wanted to be clear what you are saying: "Setting aside the overwhelming majority of neutral summons, evil subtype summons outnumber good subtype summons 3:1".

Or a 19% advantage overall. Yup, must be evil all the way. Totally obvious. Stupid broken, too...

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