...an eidolon which is roughly on par with animal companions...?!?
please, if this statement sounds even remotely sensible, read my post beginning the thread "summoners are outrageous"
If you are going to quote me, please quote my entire post...and quote it in context.
My post (which you only partially quoted out of context) essentially says that the summoner and his eidolon, as a duo, are weaker than other possible character duos/groups. I wasn't really comparing the eidolon alone.
In any case, I sad "roughly on par" with the animal companion having more hit racial dice as the eidolon, but none of the cool/powerful abilities that the eidolon possesses.
In the end, those abilities give the eidolon the versatility to come out on top more often than not--the higher HD type, BAB, and natural armor give it a good leg up too.
They dropped the HD across the board. It now maxes at 15.
I thought I had the consolidated list and it still had the 2-17 progression. Where is this limitation from?
They dropped the HD across the board. It now maxes at 15.I thought I had the consolidated list and it still had the 2-17 progression. Where is this limitation from?
You can download the last update of all the classes from the APG here.
...an eidolon which is roughly on par with animal companions...?!?
please, if this statement sounds even remotely sensible, read my post beginning the thread "summoners are outrageous"
If you are going to quote me, please quote my entire post...and quote it in context.
My post (which you only partially quoted out of context) essentially says that the summoner and his eidolon, as a duo, are weaker than other possible character duos/groups. I wasn't really comparing the eidolon alone.
In any case, I sad "roughly on par" with the animal companion having more hit racial dice as the eidolon, but none of the cool/powerful abilities that the eidolon possesses.
In the end, those abilities give the eidolon the versatility to come out on top more often than not--the higher HD type, BAB, and natural armor give it a good leg up too.
You know I just wrote up an 11th level summoner as a future enemy boss for my group and I have noticed that spell selection is not to bad tactically speaking. The spell selection is great for ambush and harassment. Even with out the eidolon these spells would make a summoner quite useful.
Mass (Bulls Rush, Cats Grace, Owls Wisdom and more)[/b] are great for an entire group
Greater invisibility[/b] Great all around but remember a summoner is a ranged character so combine this with shoot on the run and you are set. Shooting foes, moving and then they never know where you are.
I think the biggest problem right now is yes the eidolon is a key feature of the summoner so often everyone focuses caster stuff choosing feats. But what if you treat it half and half. Half like a archer like rogue and half like a caster.
The key stat for a summoner is Charisma but I would also focus on Dex because they are good at ranged combat as well.
Personally when I get around to making my own summoner I would probably choose feats like this.
Maximize Spell
Augment Summoning
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Shoot on the Run
Precise shot
Exotic Weapon Prof. Repeating Crossbow
This would still leave a lot of stuff open to help enhancing summoning and other spells but it would also make the summoner quite deadly in combat even with out his eidolon. Combine this with buff spells, a few grease spells and so on. Oh ya even a summoner without a Eidolon could cause some damage.
However I do admit though I would like to see a little larger spell list that a summoner could choose from and perhaps a few specialized spell only for the summoner.
Perhaps a spell that lets the summoner try to summon an item away from an enemy. "Oh what a pretty sword you have, may I see it?"
A spell to summon allies to the summoner's area.
but I would also like to see spells like the create food spell, all the hut spells, and other summon like utility spells.
Honestly I think with the reduced HD, cutting armor in half and allowing the Eidelon to have equipment (that stays on it if it's dismissed) balances out. You still have to spend your money on two sets of equipment, and more than likely ALL that equipment is going to have to be special made at a premium (unless your Eidelon is a medium sized humanoid).
If you halved the Eidolon's natural armor, you'd basically be compelled to buy armor for the Eidolon, as its natural armor would be insufficient to protect it.
I think a lot of the Eidolon "issues" stem from differing expectations of what an Eidolon should do/be. For example, I imagine Eidolons being like Final Fantasy summons, but I can clearly see that many people don't have the same image in their head. I think the Paizo folks are trying to invent a balanced system that allows for as many of these different ideas as possible.
If you halved the Eidolon's natural armor, you'd basically be compelled to buy armor for the Eidolon, as its natural armor would be insufficient to protect it.
That would be the rub..
Either you get no option at armor bonuses and high natural armor, or access to armor bonuses and low natural armor. Though since the second comes with monetary costs, I guess the first is the best choice
If you halved the Eidolon's natural armor, you'd basically be compelled to buy armor for the Eidolon, as its natural armor would be insufficient to protect it.That would be the rub..
Either you get no option at armor bonuses and high natural armor, or access to armor bonuses and low natural armor. Though since the second comes with monetary costs, I guess the first is the best choice
I disagree, as the first is very hard to justify having the flavor match the mechanics. The justification for not allowing armor is very weak and annoying.
I disagree, as the first is very hard to justify having the flavor match the mechanics. The justification for not allowing armor is very weak and annoying.
If you halved the Eidolon's natural armor, you'd basically be compelled to buy armor for the Eidolon, as its natural armor would be insufficient to protect it.That would be the rub..
Either you get no option at armor bonuses and high natural armor, or access to armor bonuses and low natural armor. Though since the second comes with monetary costs, I guess the first is the best choice
You do realize you can have that armor bonus as either an Armor Bonus or a Natural Armor Bonus, right? Your Eidolon CAN have armor, it's just part of his built-in armor bonus.
You do realize you can have that armor bonus as either an Armor Bonus or a Natural Armor Bonus, right? Your Eidolon CAN have armor, it's just part of his built-in armor bonus.I disagree, as the first is very hard to justify having the flavor match the mechanics. The justification for not allowing armor is very weak and annoying.
If you halved the Eidolon's natural armor, you'd basically be compelled to buy armor for the Eidolon, as its natural armor would be insufficient to protect it.That would be the rub..
Either you get no option at armor bonuses and high natural armor, or access to armor bonuses and low natural armor. Though since the second comes with monetary costs, I guess the first is the best choice
Yes, It still doesn't make sense that I can't put platemail on it but can give it clothing and a sword.
edit: now that I think about it, why don't they force 1/2 the bonus to be an armor bonus. Then you can't buff it with Mage armor later but can put armor on it if it is higher than its what it would get.
Yes, It still doesn't make sense that I can't put platemail on it but can give it clothing and a sword.
But it can have plate mail; give it a 9 armor bonus and describe it as wearing plate mail.
now that I think about it, why don't they force 1/2 the bonus to be an armor bonus. Then you can't buff it with Mage armor later but can put armor on it if it is higher than its what it would get.
Because forcing you to make your Eidolon a certain way is the opposite of what they want to do. Forcing an armor bonus is doing just that.
Yes, It still doesn't make sense that I can't put platemail on it but can give it clothing and a sword.But it can have plate mail; give it a 9 armor bonus and describe it as wearing plate mail.
now that I think about it, why don't they force 1/2 the bonus to be an armor bonus. Then you can't buff it with Mage armor later but can put armor on it if it is higher than its what it would get.Because forcing you to make your Eidolon a certain way is the opposite of what they want to do. Forcing an armor bonus is doing just that.
A. I still can't remove that platemail, so its not the same.
B. How does forcing an armor bonus change anything about the class other than allowing it to wear armor and not be broken?
I disagree, as the first is very hard to justify having the flavor match the mechanics. The justification for not allowing armor is very weak and annoying.
If you halved the Eidolon's natural armor, you'd basically be compelled to buy armor for the Eidolon, as its natural armor would be insufficient to protect it.That would be the rub..
Either you get no option at armor bonuses and high natural armor, or access to armor bonuses and low natural armor. Though since the second comes with monetary costs, I guess the first is the best choice
It's more like their making up mechanics on the spot not overwhelming the basic mechanics of the system. If they drop the NA bonus, you are basically going to be forced to buy armor for it which increases your character costs significantly. Maybe we could just limit it to light armor proficiency. That way it overrules Mage Armor and you get access to the armor buffs and it isn't a necessity.
A. I still can't remove that platemail, so its not the same.
You also can't remove its tentacle. So what? It's part of the Eidolon. It's still plate mail if you choose to call it plate mail.
B. How does forcing an armor bonus change anything about the class other than allowing it to wear armor and not be broken?
Because you're being forced to reduce the natural armor of the creature. Maybe someone WANTS to have an Eidolon with inch-thick elephant-like skin. If he's only got 8 natural armor, that doesn't fit.
A. I still can't remove that platemail, so its not the same.You also can't remove its tentacle. So what? It's part of the Eidolon. It's still plate mail if you choose to call it plate mail.
B. How does forcing an armor bonus change anything about the class other than allowing it to wear armor and not be broken?Because only armor can provide an armor bonus. That means an Eidolon with an armor bonus has to be "wearing" some sort of armor. If you want to have an Eidolon without any sort of armor, well, you can't, not if Eidolons are forced to have an armor bonus.
And I don't expect to be able to take off an arm (or tentacle) but I do expect to be able to take off armor.
Currently it can have an armor bonus without "wearing" any armor, so I fail to see the difference. The only negative side effect I see of this is loss of mage armor bonus at 10th level. You don't have to change anything about how people describe their hideous beasts.
I find it terribly amusing that you're arguing both sides of the coin.
I find it terribly amusing that you're arguing both sides of the coin.
how so?
You can give it an armor bonus without giving it armor currently.
Currently, it can't wear armor because of bad metagame justification for it being broken to have that high an AC, thanks to the huge nat armor bonus that can already be split as armor instead.
Why not force them to take some of that Natural armor as armor, and then allow them to wear real armor? It will mean you pay for heavy armors through money and get less effect to your AC than other characters. +5 platemail at lvl 20 would only add 6. That is hardly as broken as the 14 it would currently add, and would require 3 feats. It would also reduce things like bracers of AC, which bring its AC out of line still.
I find it terribly amusing that you're arguing both sides of the coin.how so?
Because on one side of the coin, you're arguing that it can't be plate mail because it can't be taken off, while on the other side of the coin you're arguing that you can call the armor bonus whatever you want.
Because on one side of the coin, you're arguing that it can't be plate mail because it can't be taken off, while on the other side of the coin you're arguing that you can call the armor bonus whatever you want.I find it terribly amusing that you're arguing both sides of the coin.how so?
Currntly you can have an armor bonus and dscribe it however you want it to look. That doesn't make it armor. I can call it platemail, or I could make it ablative pink bunnies. Either way, I can't take it off.
I can call it platemail, or I could make it ablative pink bunnies. Either way, I can't take it off.
But you said it can't be plate mail because you can't take it off.
I can call it platemail, or I could make it ablative pink bunnies. Either way, I can't take it off.But you said it can't be plate mail because you can't take it off.
Here is my solution for the armor exception rule.
1. Drop the natural armor down in line with an animal companion and allow armor.
2. Make the Evolution for natural armor make up the difference in lost natural armor from 1 but state in the description of the evolution you can't wear armor.
Then that should make most of the players happy.
I can call it platemail, or I could make it ablative pink bunnies. Either way, I can't take it off.But you said it can't be plate mail because you can't take it off.Here is my solution for the armor exception rule.
1. Drop the natural armor down in line with an animal companion and allow armor.
2. Make the Evolution for natural armor make up the difference in lost natural armor from 1 but state in the description of the evolution you can't wear armor.
Then that should make most of the players happy.
That imposes a tax on Eidolons:
1. This is a feat+gold tax. The Eidolon would be required to spend feats on the armor proficiencies (which, unlike weapons, have to be taken in order), and would have to spend money on what they used to get for free. Note that this would also prevent the Summoner from wearing armor, even if the Eidolon wasn't wearing magical armor.
2. This is an evolution point tax.
Either way, you're further nerfing Eidolons.
Does that stop you from naming a dog "Kitty?" Just because the dog can't be a kitty doesn't mean you cac't call it "Kitty."I can call it platemail, or I could make it ablative pink bunnies. Either way, I can't take it off.But you said it can't be plate mail because you can't take it off.
Caineach said (paraphrased) "It can't be plate armor because you can't take it off" (nevermind that being able to take it on or off isn't a requirement for something to be plate armor), so apparently s/he DOES think that because the dog can't be a cat means the dog can't be called "kitty".
Caineach said (paraphrased) "It can't be plate armor because you can't take it off" (nevermind that being able to take it on or off isn't a requirement for something to be plate armor), so apparently s/he DOES think that because the dog can't be a cat means the dog can't be called "kitty".Does that stop you from naming a dog "Kitty?" Just because the dog can't be a kitty doesn't mean you cac't call it "Kitty."I can call it platemail, or I could make it ablative pink bunnies. Either way, I can't take it off.But you said it can't be plate mail because you can't take it off.
My point is that there is no good justification for the eidolon to not be able to wear armor that I purchase and put on it. I should be able to have something custom made to fit big E and have him wear it. Flavor-wise, there is a difference between this and just defining him to have armor. The "interferes with the summoning" bit of flavor is a horrible cob that is only there for ballance. There are other ways to ballance it that do not leave bad tastes in peoples mouths, like my suggestion, which would mildly impact some eidolons but not be horrible to them.
I also find the sharing of slots to be a horrible mechanic I hope they get rid of.
There are other ways to ballance it that do not leave bad tastes in peoples mouths, like my suggestion, which would mildly impact some eidolons but not be horrible to them.
Actually, your solution would be a big nerf to Eidolon AC (not that I'm saying that's a bad thing -- I think they're probably still too high, honestly). Right now they can still get armor bonuses to AC on top of the full variable armor/natural armor bonus. Your proposal would mean they could get a maximum of +6 at a severe feat tax (they would need to spend at least two feats to get Medium Armor Proficiency to get any long-term advantage for wearing armor).
I also find the sharing of slots to be a horrible mechanic I hope they get rid of.
This I wholly agree with.
From what I can remember the "can't wear armor" and shared slots came about because without it the Edolion was horribly unbalanced.
And as Zurai pointed out you can make your Summoner's pet look like anything, if you want to have is looking like its wearing pink ablative bunnies do it. The Edolion just can't "remove" it.
Mines wearing a t-shirt with "I'm with stupid" on it but that neither here or there.
There are other ways to ballance it that do not leave bad tastes in peoples mouths, like my suggestion, which would mildly impact some eidolons but not be horrible to them.Actually, your solution would be a big nerf to Eidolon AC (not that I'm saying that's a bad thing -- I think they're probably still too high, honestly). Right now they can still get armor bonuses to AC on top of the full variable armor/natural armor bonus. Your proposal would mean they could get a maximum of +6 at a severe feat tax (they would need to spend at least two feats to get Medium Armor Proficiency to get any long-term advantage for wearing armor).
Given the ACs some of the Eidolons that I have seen, I have no problems with this nerf. Currenty, mid 40s is easy at high levels without spending evolution points (2 dex, 18 nat, Bracers of AC +8, +5 ROP, +5 Amulet Nat Armor = 48), throw in a shield to break 50. Other classes need to work hard to get AC up that high.
From what I can remember the "can't wear armor" and shared slots came about because without it the Edolion was horribly unbalanced.
And as Zurai pointed out you can make your Summoner's pet look like anything, if you want to have is looking like its wearing pink ablative bunnies do it. The Edolion just can't "remove" it.Mines wearing a t-shirt with "I'm with stupid" on it but that neither here or there.
Yes, but as I said before there IS a flavor difference between being able to define it having armor and it actually wearing armor. There is also a mechanical difference as there are cool non-enhancement bonuses that can be put on armor. I do not think just giving them armor is the proper move, however. They would need to give something up, like 1/2 their natural armor bonus. That is why I say 1/2 their natural armor bonus should be actual armor bonus, as the rules currently say you can. That would make it not stack with armors. There are other ways to ballance this, I just see this as a simple one that does the job.
As for the sharing slots, I never saw it as that broken before for both the summoner and big E to have things in the same slots. I think its an added restriction that is not needed but adds a level of complexity that will annoy people more than affect gameplay.
There is also a mechanical difference as there are cool non-enhancement bonuses that can be put on armor.
... which can also be put on bracers of armor.
You can download the last update of all the classes from the APG here.
Ugh, I seriously think the eidolon has a HD deficiency problem. Couldn't it have been given HD=summoner level and 3/4 BAB instead? I think Elemental HD could have worked quite well for it overall.
I really think the overall philosophy of nerfing the eidolon was wrong. Several features were found to be overpowered, but instead of targeting them the entire base was weakened. Instead of having all abilities be equal for their cost (which will allow for flexibility and opportunity), this may end up in one or two optimal builds and anything else being just so much chaff.
I can call it platemail, or I could make it ablative pink bunnies. Either way, I can't take it off.But you said it can't be plate mail because you can't take it off.Here is my solution for the armor exception rule.
1. Drop the natural armor down in line with an animal companion and allow armor.
2. Make the Evolution for natural armor make up the difference in lost natural armor from 1 but state in the description of the evolution you can't wear armor.
Then that should make most of the players happy.
That imposes a tax on Eidolons:
1. This is a feat+gold tax. The Eidolon would be required to spend feats on the armor proficiencies (which, unlike weapons, have to be taken in order), and would have to spend money on what they used to get for free. Note that this would also prevent the Summoner from wearing armor, even if the Eidolon wasn't wearing magical armor.
2. This is an evolution point tax.
Either way, you're further nerfing Eidolons.
I think the natural armor evolution is a must have now anyway since they took away the armor. You are trading one evolution (nat armor) for armor proficiency evolutions or feats and gold. I am not too upset with the armor rule currently. Of all the current exception it is the least offensive to me. I think it should be made to fit into the current core rules if possible.
The sharing magic items rule is just plain silly. the druids animal companion has a link and it doesn't interfere with magic items...
I think the natural armor evolution is a must have now anyway since they took away the armor.
Not at all. Take a look at my sample level 20 summoner thread. The Eidolon there has no special defenses aside from a mage armor and a ring of protection and a Balor full attacks it for ... 14 damage.
I think the natural armor evolution is a must have now anyway since they took away the armor.Not at all. Take a look at my sample level 20 summoner thread. The Eidolon there has no special defenses aside from a mage armor and a ring of protection and a Balor full attacks it for ... 14 damage.
I just know at my current level of 6 my Eidolon has 25 AC(29 with mage armor) and that is spending 2 point for natural armor Evolution. In comparison the player who has a level 6 Druid with an animal companion has 28 AC.
I think the game breaks down after 12-14th level. I have never had a character higher then 15th level.
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my take is this -
The eidolon gets the progression for NA as it is now.
it also gets an evolution that drops its NA by 1/2 but allows it access to -
light armour for 1 pt
medium armour for 1 pt which increases to heavy armour for free at lev ?? (maybe 8) & the light armour evolution has to be taken as a prerequisite making it a 2 pt cost total for medium then later heavy for no extra.
this allows people to choose NA or take armour without sacrificing either for those that dont want the other or making the E with overly high AC possibilities - hope that makes sense
any comments ?
Isn't that higher than what it was before the nerf, all in total?
And it really misses the main point of complaint I've seen - 1 HD at first level.
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my take is this -
The eidolon gets the progression for NA as it is now.
it also gets an evolution that drops its NA by 1/2 but allows it access to -
light armour for 1 pt
medium armour for 1 pt which increases to heavy armour for free at lev ?? (maybe 8) & the light armour evolution has to be taken as a prerequisite making it a 2 pt cost total for medium then later heavy for no extra.this allows people to choose NA or take armour without sacrificing either for those that dont want the other or making the E with overly high AC possibilities - hope that makes sense
any comments ?
Technically it sort of gets this now, you just can't enchant it. The armor bonus given to an eidolon by level progression can be NA or Armor or any combination thereof. So if your eidolon lvl Armor bonus is 4, he can have 2 points of NA and 2 points of Armor. Allowing the Eidolon to wear armor of any sort is a pretty big power change from the current state of the eidolon. Heavy armor has the possibility of adding + 14 to AC and special qualities. At 20th lvl you'd be giving up 8 armor for 14 armor + specials. Not very balanced for 2 evolution points.
Technically it sort of gets this now, you just can't enchant it. The armor bonus given to an eidolon by level progression can be NA or Armor or any combination thereof. So if your eidolon lvl Armor bonus is 4, he can have 2 points of NA and 2 points of Armor. Allowing the Eidolon to wear armor of any sort is a pretty big power change from the current state of the eidolon. Heavy armor has the possibility of adding + 14 to AC and special qualities. At 20th lvl you'd be giving up 8 armor for 14 armor + specials. Not very balanced for 2 evolution points.my take is this -
The eidolon gets the progression for NA as it is now.
it also gets an evolution that drops its NA by 1/2 but allows it access to -
light armour for 1 pt
medium armour for 1 pt which increases to heavy armour for free at lev ?? (maybe 8) & the light armour evolution has to be taken as a prerequisite making it a 2 pt cost total for medium then later heavy for no extra.this allows people to choose NA or take armour without sacrificing either for those that dont want the other or making the E with overly high AC possibilities - hope that makes sense
any comments ?
Currently, I don't see why you would ever give the eidolon armor bonus instead of natural armor bonus. All it does is hurt your ability to give armor bonuses from other sources like mage armor or bracers of AC.
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Currently, I don't see why you would ever give the eidolon armor bonus instead of natural armor bonus. All it does is hurt your ability to give armor bonuses from other sources like mage armor or bracers of AC.Technically it sort of gets this now, you just can't enchant it. The armor bonus given to an eidolon by level progression can be NA or Armor or any combination thereof. So if your eidolon lvl Armor bonus is 4, he can have 2 points of NA and 2 points of Armor. Allowing the Eidolon to wear armor of any sort is a pretty big power change from the current state of the eidolon. Heavy armor has the possibility of adding + 14 to AC and special qualities. At 20th lvl you'd be giving up 8 armor for 14 armor + specials. Not very balanced for 2 evolution points.my take is this -
The eidolon gets the progression for NA as it is now.
it also gets an evolution that drops its NA by 1/2 but allows it access to -
light armour for 1 pt
medium armour for 1 pt which increases to heavy armour for free at lev ?? (maybe 8) & the light armour evolution has to be taken as a prerequisite making it a 2 pt cost total for medium then later heavy for no extra.this allows people to choose NA or take armour without sacrificing either for those that dont want the other or making the E with overly high AC possibilities - hope that makes sense
any comments ?
I completely agree. Though only as far as Mage Armor as I don't think the eidolon can currently wear bracers... As per a previous post... Maybe the updated "no armor" rules were meant to displace the previous hard list.
I completely agree. Though only as far as Mage Armor as I don't think the eidolon can currently wear bracers... As per a previous post... Maybe the updated "no armor" rules were meant to displace the previous hard list.Currently, I don't see why you would ever give the eidolon armor bonus instead of natural armor bonus. All it does is hurt your ability to give armor bonuses from other sources like mage armor or bracers of AC.Technically it sort of gets this now, you just can't enchant it. The armor bonus given to an eidolon by level progression can be NA or Armor or any combination thereof. So if your eidolon lvl Armor bonus is 4, he can have 2 points of NA and 2 points of Armor. Allowing the Eidolon to wear armor of any sort is a pretty big power change from the current state of the eidolon. Heavy armor has the possibility of adding + 14 to AC and special qualities. At 20th lvl you'd be giving up 8 armor for 14 armor + specials. Not very balanced for 2 evolution points.my take is this -
The eidolon gets the progression for NA as it is now.
it also gets an evolution that drops its NA by 1/2 but allows it access to -
light armour for 1 pt
medium armour for 1 pt which increases to heavy armour for free at lev ?? (maybe 8) & the light armour evolution has to be taken as a prerequisite making it a 2 pt cost total for medium then later heavy for no extra.this allows people to choose NA or take armour without sacrificing either for those that dont want the other or making the E with overly high AC possibilities - hope that makes sense
any comments ?
Yes he can. Check the link ability. The only thing an eidolon can't wear is armor. However, he can't wear anything in a slot the summoner has occupied (and I won't go into how much BS that is).
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Yes he can. Check the link ability. The only thing an eidolon can't wear is armor. However, he can't wear anything in a slot the summoner has occupied (and I won't go into how much BS that is).I completely agree. Though only as far as Mage Armor as I don't think the eidolon can currently wear bracers... As per a previous post... Maybe the updated "no armor" rules were meant to displace the previous hard list.Currently, I don't see why you would ever give the eidolon armor bonus instead of natural armor bonus. All it does is hurt your ability to give armor bonuses from other sources like mage armor or bracers of AC.Technically it sort of gets this now, you just can't enchant it. The armor bonus given to an eidolon by level progression can be NA or Armor or any combination thereof. So if your eidolon lvl Armor bonus is 4, he can have 2 points of NA and 2 points of Armor. Allowing the Eidolon to wear armor of any sort is a pretty big power change from the current state of the eidolon. Heavy armor has the possibility of adding + 14 to AC and special qualities. At 20th lvl you'd be giving up 8 armor for 14 armor + specials. Not very balanced for 2 evolution points.my take is this -
The eidolon gets the progression for NA as it is now.
it also gets an evolution that drops its NA by 1/2 but allows it access to -
light armour for 1 pt
medium armour for 1 pt which increases to heavy armour for free at lev ?? (maybe 8) & the light armour evolution has to be taken as a prerequisite making it a 2 pt cost total for medium then later heavy for no extra.this allows people to choose NA or take armour without sacrificing either for those that dont want the other or making the E with overly high AC possibilities - hope that makes sense
any comments ?
Umm... wow I missed that... that blows. The druid/ranger with an animal companion is now the hands down winner. I preferred the previous version where they limited the slots...
Umm... wow I missed that... that blows. The druid/ranger with an animal companion is now...Yes he can. Check the link ability. The only thing an eidolon can't wear is armor. However, he can't wear anything in a slot the summoner has occupied (and I won't go into how much BS that is).I completely agree. Though only as far as Mage Armor as I don't think the eidolon can currently wear bracers... As per a previous post... Maybe the updated "no armor" rules were meant to displace the previous hard list.Currently, I don't see why you would ever give the eidolon armor bonus instead of natural armor bonus. All it does is hurt your ability to give armor bonuses from other sources like mage armor or bracers of AC.Technically it sort of gets this now, you just can't enchant it. The armor bonus given to an eidolon by level progression can be NA or Armor or any combination thereof. So if your eidolon lvl Armor bonus is 4, he can have 2 points of NA and 2 points of Armor. Allowing the Eidolon to wear armor of any sort is a pretty big power change from the current state of the eidolon. Heavy armor has the possibility of adding + 14 to AC and special qualities. At 20th lvl you'd be giving up 8 armor for 14 armor + specials. Not very balanced for 2 evolution points.my take is this -
The eidolon gets the progression for NA as it is now.
it also gets an evolution that drops its NA by 1/2 but allows it access to -
light armour for 1 pt
medium armour for 1 pt which increases to heavy armour for free at lev ?? (maybe 8) & the light armour evolution has to be taken as a prerequisite making it a 2 pt cost total for medium then later heavy for no extra.this allows people to choose NA or take armour without sacrificing either for those that dont want the other or making the E with overly high AC possibilities - hope that makes sense
any comments ?
Honestly, neither version is necessary. It's still a gold sink to try and decently equip both the eidolon and the summoner, just like it is trying to equip an AnCo and druid (or ranger).
here are my two coins!
1. eidolons need to be at least as powerful, if not more powerful than a druid's animal companion.
2. a class based on summoning and called the "summoner" should be able to use summon monster 7, 8, and 9 more than one at a time.
here are my two coins!
1. eidolons need to be at least as powerful, if not more powerful than a druid's animal companion.
2. a class based on summoning and called the "summoner" should be able to use summon monster 7, 8, and 9 more than one at a time.
I would really like to know in what world an AniCom even remotely as powerful as an equivalent level summoner?
I agree with point 2 and think they should add the summon spells back the way they were before, but don't think the other spells should be put back that way.
here are my two coins!
1. eidolons need to be at least as powerful, if not more powerful than a druid's animal companion.
2. a class based on summoning and called the "summoner" should be able to use summon monster 7, 8, and 9 more than one at a time.
I would really like to know in what world an AniCom even remotely as powerful as an equivalent level summoner?
I agree with point 2 and think they should add the summon spells back the way they were before, but don't think the other spells should be put back that way.
those are just my two solid beliefs whether or not they are in effect
I would really like to know in what world an AniCom even remotely as powerful as an equivalent level summoner?
Animal companions have universally higher max AC, higher HD (important for quite a few spells), higher saving throws, and more feats than Eidolons. They also, situationally, have better equipment selection (apes can use any equipment a human can, in addition to whatever the druid is wearing), are harder to get rid of (no banishment / dismissal), and can have special abilities that Eidolons either cannot get at all (stun) or cannot get as early (flight). They're also Animal type, which has an awful lot of very nice beneficial spells that apply to it, such as animal growth which neatly negates the "but Eidolons can be Huge" argument (and is waaaaaay better than enlarge person).
Eidolons are NOT a clear victor in the "who has a better pet" contest. They win in some categories (total offense) and lose in others.
Im curious, why did they decide the summoner and Big E needed to share slots? I thought the reason they took the XP cost off creating items was that players only had access to so much wealth, so they couldnt crank out any amount of magic items as money would limit them. (hope i worded that so everyone understood) Doesnt the same concept apply to trying to gear both Summoner and Big E?
They removed XP costs because they believe that XP shouldn't be a currency, not for any balance-related reasons.