Summoner / Eidolon Changes


Advanced Player's Guide Playtest: Final Playtest

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Liberty's Edge

So, Eidolon's HD/BAB get reduced, fine....it's a little harsh I think, considering it's our damage output, but makes more like a companion, and we do get to have our summoned monsters a lot longer and quicker...so guess I can't really argue.

With the reduction in HD though, do we still treat their first level of HP as a companion, so they only get 6 (5 from the d10 and 1 for CON) at first level, or do they get full like a character at first?

Whatever the answer is, thanks for the new playtest rules...awesome job on all of this and for listening to the playtesters!

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The addition of a Max Attacks column is a welcome one.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I have a question though:

final playtest: summoner wrote:

Improved Natural Armor (Ex): An eidolon’s hide grows thick fur, rigid scales, or bony plates, giving it a +2 bonus

to its natural armor. This evolution can be taken once for every five levels the summoner possesses.

Does this mean that you can give this to your eidolon once at first level and twice at fifth?

Or only once at fifth and twice at 10th?


I would guess the 2nd, as it says every 5 levels and you only have 5 at level 5. so once at 5th,10th,15th and 20th


Yeah, I don't much like the reduction in HD, myself. At the very least the scale should be changed so they have 2 HD at first level so they aren't one-shottable by goblins.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

The summoner spell list now totally sucks. It no longer has summon monster IX and other potent spells. Eidolon or no eidolon, it will never compare to most other casting classes now.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
The summoner spell list now totally sucks. It no longer has summon monster IX and other potent spells. Eidolon or no eidolon, it will never compare to most other casting classes now.

You mean the summon monster IX you get as a spell like ability at 17thlvl that can be used a number of times per day equal to 3+ your charisma modifier that you can use as a standard action and that lasts longer than a regular summon?


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Kevin Mack wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
The summoner spell list now totally sucks. It no longer has summon monster IX and other potent spells. Eidolon or no eidolon, it will never compare to most other casting classes now.
You mean the summon monster IX you get as a spell like ability at 17thlvl that can be used a number of times per day equal to 3+ your charisma modifier that you can use as a standard action and that lasts longer than a regular summon?

No, I am referring to the spell list, not the summon monster class ability. A lot of the more powerful stuff was removed from their spell list.

Also, as written, they can never have more than one summon spell or spell-like ability up at a time since the moment they use their spell-like ability, their previous summons disappear (note that it does not differentiate between your spells or spell-like ability, it just says "any existing summon monster"). That makes a wizard specialized in summoning better in every way (since they can swarm their enemies with summons).

Also, gate isn't all that useful anymore as it kills your ability to use one of your class abilities as long as it is in effect. A wizard casting gate doesn't lose any of his class abilities.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Actually it does differentiate.

Playtest Final wrote:

A summoner cannot have more than one

summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one time.

Meaning that any summon monster spell you cast is treated separately from your SLA.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

Actually it does differentiate.

Playtest Final wrote:

A summoner cannot have more than one

summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one time.
Meaning that any summon monster spell you cast is treated separately from your SLA.

Ah, the "in this way" part does cinch it doesn't it? Reading too fast for my own good.

Still don't like that their spell list was brought low--too low.


Changes to the Summoner spell list:

Cantrips
No changes.

1st Level Spells
No changes.

2nd Level Spells
Removed: haste, slow

3rd Level Spells
Removed: black tentacles, dimension door, mass enlarge person, greater invisibility, mass reduce person
Added: haste, sleet storm, slow, stinking cloud
Reduced: summon monster IV -> summon monster III

4th Level Spells
Removed: baleful polymorph, hold monster, insect plague, teleport, wall of stone
Added: black tentacles, dimension door, mass enlarge person, greater invisibility, mass reduce person, solid fog
Reduced: summon monster V -> summon monster IV

5th Level Spells
Removed: banishment, creeping doom, greater dispel magic, ethereal jaunt, mass invisibility, sequester, simulacrum, spell turning, greater teleport, wall of iron
Added: baleful polymorph, break enchantment, cloudkill, hold monster, insect plague, polymorph, prying eyes, teleport, wall of stone
Reduced: summon monster VII -> summon monster V

6th Level Spells
Removed: antipathy, binding, mass charm monster, discern location, dominate monster, incendiary cloud, maze, protection from spells, sympathy, teleportation circle
Added: acid fog, banishment, creeping doom, greater dispel magic, instant summons, mass invisibility, simulacrum, spell turning, greater teleport, wall of iron
Reduced: summon monster IX -> summon monster VI

---

Wow, that's an absolute disaster area. I don't think they get parity of access to any spells at all except cantrips and 1st level spells. In other words, every single spell they get after 1st level spells is at a later character level than a full caster. That breaks all kinds of traditions and was really, really un-needed. People were already complaining that the Summoner had nothing to do with its spells other than buff the Eidolon.

On top of that, they lost a bunch of good spells at the top end (every spell on the 6th level "removed" list is gone totally) and only gained the various "cloud/fog" spells, sleet storm, and prying eyes. That's an exceptionally poor trade. Now Summoners really don't have much to do except buff their pet, magically speaking.

Grand Lodge

Zurai wrote:

Wow, that's an absolute disaster area. I don't think they get parity of access to any spells at all except cantrips and 1st level spells. In other words, every single spell they get after 1st level spells is at a later character level than a full caster. That breaks all kinds of traditions and was really, really un-needed. People were already complaining that the Summoner had nothing to do with its spells other than buff the Eidolon.

On top of that, they lost a bunch of good spells at the top end...

I think you already answered the reasoning behind the changes with the bold quote. The summoner is about his eidolon and summon monster spells.

even without a spell list the summoner is an effective member of the party with just his eidolon and summon monster X+3 times per day lasting 1 min/level - by 2nd level thats a summon per combat for the duration of that combat. I don't know many combats that go beyond 20 rounds.

I think this shortened spell list and extended summon SLA give the summoner a balanced niche in the party rather than replacing the wizard/sorcerer. Yes they may only fill the 5th wheel aspect like the rest of these new classes but perhaps that is the intent. And the summoner does add a lot of flexibility to combat with the eidolon that the other classes still lack.

All in all I think the power of the summoner is higher than most classes but I'm still slightly concerned like you guys at the reduced spell list in relation to the summon monster spells. for me the idea that a level 16 summoner is limited to CR 7-9 creatures from his spell list does strike me as under powered and I would like to see at least a 1 level boost in the summoners summon spells (starting at summon monster 2 at level 1 to summon monster VII at level 16). I would also like to see a modified version of summon monster I as a cantrip (with a fixed duration of 1 round drawing monsters from the summon monster 1 list) for the summoner too but perhaps that would be too unbalancing.

As for the fog spells, well I can see some unique tactical advantages with these and a eidolon with the blindsense/blindsight/scent abilities.


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

Actually it does differentiate.

Playtest Final wrote:

A summoner cannot have more than one

summon monster or gate spell active in this way at one time.
Meaning that any summon monster spell you cast is treated separately from your SLA.

The limitation on the gate effect needs to be clairified a bit. By RAW, gate is a conjuration (calling) effect when it brings a creature. The creature brought is physically here and not summoned. Technically, ending the effect would end the control over the creature. It can do as it wants at this point. The creature is not sent back to its plane of origin.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

The summoner and his eidolon are not equal to...

...a cleric with the animal domain and his animal companion...
...a druid and his animal companion...
...a paladin and his mount...
...a ranger with his animal companion...
...a wizard with summon and calling spells...

...so one must wonder why the class exists at all. It has weaker spellcasting than most other classes, weaker combat ability, and a an eidolon which is roughly on par with animal companions (the latter of which have more HD, but not as many cool abilities).

I imagine, the way its going, most people won't want to play the class very often because they aren't playing the summoner so much as they are playing the eidolon itself. The summoner ends up just being there in a support role (and we all know how support roles, such as the cleric, are often looked over in favor of "an action class").

Shadow Lodge

And what happened to the Eidolon's health? When it is summoned, it had the same HP as last time, which means the party healer will be asked by the Summoner to heal a summoned creature, thereby cutting the amount of healing going to everyone else. And don't bring up Channel Energy, because if more party members are getting hurt, the Channels are going to be used up faster in order to keep everyone going.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Dragonborn3 wrote:
And what happened to the Eidolon's health? When it is summoned, it had the same HP as last time, which means the party healer will be asked by the Summoner to heal a summoned creature, thereby cutting the amount of healing going to everyone else. And don't bring up Channel Energy, because if more party members are getting hurt, the Channels are going to be used up faster in order to keep everyone going.

What's weird about this situation is that the current rules foster a strange incentive: it's probably better for the party's resources overall to simply coup de grace an eidolon who falls below 0 hp, because that way it will return the next day with half its hit points rather than draining party healing for a combatant that will still be likely to drop in the next fight anyway...


My groups summoner pointed out not only does the edilon have reduced health, but he now also more susceptible to spells since he has fewer HD. Examples are lvl 7 wiz/sorc power word blind, and lvl 7 cleric dictum would have better effects.

Just my observation.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Eidolon > Any animal companion, mount or whatever other pokemon.

Unless you can point me to anything that can have blindsight, fast healing, SR, DR 10/good and can fly.

Shadow Lodge

Gorbacz wrote:

Eidolon > Any animal companion, mount or whatever other pokemon.

Unless you can point me to anything that can have blindsight, fast healing, SR, DR 10/good and can fly.

Shouldn't this kind of argument be put in, oh I don't know, it's own thread? This is a thread for changes to the Eidolon, not one for what ever grief you've got for them.


Sorry, thought it was actually a change to the edilon since they reduced the overall HD it gets over the course of lvl 20.


I really don't like the changes made to how HP works for the Eidolon. My class feature now comes with a spell tax that applies to a different caster in my group. And unlike any other companions, he doesn't heal naturally at all. Especially in combination with the distance limit, HP is going to be a really big issue.


did you notice they increased the cost of the large evolution? not saying its good or bad i just pointing it out.

the re-wording was a good idea though


MaverickWolf wrote:
I really don't like the changes made to how HP works for the Eidolon. My class feature now comes with a spell tax that applies to a different caster in my group. And unlike any other companions, he doesn't heal naturally at all. Especially in combination with the distance limit, HP is going to be a really big issue.

I'm having a hard time finding this. Unless you unsummon your Eidolon it looks like it should still heal normally. If your Eidolon got face stomped and sent back it'll show up at half-health. I'm not sure if that is a good rule change myself. However this does drastically encourage a Summoner not to recklessly fling his Eidolon into combat if he hasn't summoned it that day. Even a quick unsummon won't undo any damage sustained.


Let me try to list all the major changes to the Summoner just to keep everyone on the same page.

Eidolon
HD reduced 2
8 less skill points due to HD
BAB reduced due to HD
Saves lowered due to HD
Maximum Attack limit added
One less feat

Summoner
Summon Monster ability lasts minutes instead of hours
Can't use summon monster class ability in conjunction with other summon monster spells
Spell list greatly changed, no longer similar to a full caster
(Look at Zurai's post for specifics)

I haven't got a chance to playtest with these yet, but it seems pretty harsh. The Max Attacks were desperately needed as I've seen from the earlier playtests, and the Eidolon seemed to be a little overpowered in play, but taking away several of the best spells a summoner gets, or moving them to higher levels will really make my summoner do less in combat. Considering he didn't do much anyways, that really disappoints me.

Like I said, I haven't got a chance to play yet, but the new spell list seems pretty harsh.

Planning to playtest soon. BTW Did I miss any other changes?

Sovereign Court

Sonchezz wrote:

Let me try to list all the major changes to the Summoner just to keep everyone on the same page.

Can't use summon monster class ability in conjunction with other summon monster spells

Where is this? If it's the last few lines of the Summon Monster SLA entry I'm not sure I read it the same way you do. The last line refers only to the Summon Monster Spell-Like ability, not the Summoners ability to cast summon monster spells.

--Vrock, Paper, Scissors

Scarab Sages

I believe like others that the SLA can be used with summon spells at the same time but you can only have one SLA up at a time

something I didnt like was the HD going down but at least they kept D10 instead of D8 like ACs - I personally would have preferred that they had same HD number & type as the ACs did eg start with 2HD which are D8


King of Vrock wrote:
Sonchezz wrote:

Let me try to list all the major changes to the Summoner just to keep everyone on the same page.

Can't use summon monster class ability in conjunction with other summon monster spells

Where is this? If it's the last few lines of the Summon Monster SLA entry I'm not sure I read it the same way you do. The last line refers only to the Summon Monster Spell-Like ability, not the Summoners ability to cast summon monster spells.

--Vrock, Paper, Scissors

If I got that wrong sorry, it's just how I read it, amd how I've heard other people talk about it.


"If this ability is used again, any existing summon monster or gate immediately ends."

RAW you can have as many spell summons up as you want, while only maintaining 1 SLA summon at a time.


I think all these changes are necessary.

I started a 1st level pathfinder society summoner with the old rules, and honestly wasn't planning on playing him again because he seemed so broken as to be unfair to the other players. Now, I'm thinking about having another go at it.

Ken

Shadow Lodge

Ceefood wrote:

I believe like others that the SLA can be used with summon spells at the same time but you can only have one SLA up at a time

something I didnt like was the HD going down but at least they kept D10 instead of D8 like ACs - I personally would have preferred that they had same HD number & type as the ACs did eg start with 2HD which are D8

This really doesn't matter because once you get past 5th level or so you are likely not using summoning spells much regardless. The power level of summons spells is moderate at full progression; with the new progression I can't imagine a lot of people taking Summon Monster III and SM IV at 10th level is pretty weak... it only gets worse from there.

The SLA and the eidolon are likely the only summoning going on for most summoners.

Shadow Lodge

Wizard with Conjuration focus is simply better than the summoner now without argument.

I loved the summoner class when it first came out, and while there definately needed to be changes, it seems like it was gutted and would be better served as a prestige class than a normal one.


Raestlin wrote:
Wizard with Conjuration focus is simply better than the summoner now without argument.

Derp herp.

- The summoner has HD 8 and a medium base attack bonus. This gives him more survivability as well as the chance to do some fighting of his own with the right customization.

- The summoner has the best companion, period. All these claims that it's comparable to a paladin's warhorse or a druid's animal companion (or even the ranger's/cleric's animal companion, lol) are ridiculous.

- The summoner has a spell list at least on par with the bard, with a lot of them being really powerful because he has the eidolon to work with.

- The summoner can summon monsters outside his regular casting of spells per day for a longer time than any other class.

Although the exact power level is debatable, the wizard is by no means "simply better".

Shadow Lodge

Ellington wrote:
Raestlin wrote:
Wizard with Conjuration focus is simply better than the summoner now without argument.

Derp herp.

.......

Although the exact power level is debatable, the wizard is by no means "simply better".

I could argue with you, but since a battle of opinions has no winner it would be worthless.

From my playtest, the summoner generally did little save buff his eidolon and summon meat shields. The medium attack bonus never really came up. Limiting the spell selection would just take away options on the summoners turn and weakening the eidolon just means its more likely that its going to die leaving the weakened summoner half a character class.


I think the only thing i would have like to have seen that didn't get added is the cure spells, bard gets them, and they took the progression from the bard, and it would make sense with the reduced HD for them to be able to heal their eidolon, and while they could never replace the cleric as a healer, it'd be a good addition to the party.


Raestlin wrote:
Ellington wrote:
Raestlin wrote:
Wizard with Conjuration focus is simply better than the summoner now without argument.

Derp herp.

.......

Although the exact power level is debatable, the wizard is by no means "simply better".

I could argue with you, but since a battle of opinions has no winner it would be worthless.

From my playtest, the summoner generally did little save buff his eidolon and summon meat shields. The medium attack bonus never really came up. Limiting the spell selection would just take away options on the summoners turn and weakening the eidolon just means its more likely that its going to die leaving the weakened summoner half a character class.

So if in my campaign the cleric did nothing but shoot with her bow and throw out a few cure spells, the cleric class is garbage? Just because your player isn't utilizing options, doesn't meen they're not there.

Shadow Lodge

Sonchezz wrote:

Summon Monster ability lasts minutes instead of hours

I want to know where it said in the older versions that the SLA lasted hours.


While I don't entirely agree with all the changes, they do tend to make the summoner be more careful with his Big E and also nearly forces them to really beef up the defenses.

In the prior iteration of them a summoner could get by fairly well with his buffs and then just having Big E spend all his points on offense. He'd rip any appropriately-CR'd critter to pieces long before defense became an issue.

With the resummon-changes, the lower HD and such taken into account; using alot of the defenses becomes alot more advantageuos. Spell resistance, fast healing, and all that become alot more attractive when the creature can't just barrel into a mob or two and mow them down.

Did it go too far? Maybe. I think now, by 20 if your E doesn't have the SR evolution then he's toast. If you don't take fast healing your party cleric will be using You as a target dummy for his heavy mace. While I agree that defense is good I'm afraid that it's just given you some absolutely mandatory evolutions that you either take or can't survive. That doesn't scream "versatility" to me.

Hopefully playtests won't bear that aspect of it to be true.

-S

Shadow Lodge

Raestlin wrote:
From my playtest, the summoner generally did little save buff his eidolon and summon meat shields. The medium attack bonus never really came up. Limiting the spell selection would just take away options on the summoners turn and weakening the eidolon just means its more likely that its going to die leaving the weakened summoner half a character class.

What level did you playtest at? We've been doing a playtest at 7th level and this simply hasn't been the case. The summoner generally drops one summoned creature at the beginning of combat and a then uses her bow or sometimes a longspear (Strength is her highest stat). She is not the most effective melee character in the group but she doesn't get torched either. If it looks to be a tough fight she spends more time buffing the Eidolon and the summons. With the change I expect she will have even more time since she can frequently summon creatures before combat.

The tests we did prior to the update had the summoner being pretty powerful compared to most other characters. We haven't tested the class at all since the change and I'm a bit worried that it got nerfed on both ends (Eidolon and casting).

Shadow Lodge

Selgard wrote:

Spoilered to make smaller:
While I don't entirely agree with all the changes, they do tend to make the summoner be more careful with his Big E and also nearly forces them to really beef up the defenses.

In the prior iteration of them a summoner could get by fairly well with his buffs and then just having Big E spend all his points on offense. He'd rip any appropriately-CR'd critter to pieces long before defense became an issue.

With the resummon-changes, the lower HD and such taken into account; using alot of the defenses becomes alot more advantageuos. Spell resistance, fast healing, and all that become alot more attractive when the creature can't just barrel into a mob or two and mow them down.

Did it go too far? Maybe. I think now, by 20 if your E doesn't have the SR evolution then he's toast. If you don't take fast healing your party cleric will be using You as a target dummy for his heavy mace. While I agree that defense is good I'm afraid that it's just given you some absolutely mandatory evolutions that you either take or can't survive. That doesn't scream "versatility" to me.

Hopefully playtests won't bear that aspect of it to be true.

-S

I cry for the Summoner, for now I feel his is dead...

EDIT: Not really, but I hope there are no more changes for the worse coming.


Hopefully not dead.

But, definately have to be abit more rounded in the building of his E than before.

(but then again with the points freed up from the maximum attack limit maybe it'll even out anyway.. who knows)

-S

Dark Archive

I was kind of sad at the Weapon Proficiency Evolution cost increase. I felt it was useable at the previous cost... now I can't really see taking it that often. I can take two of the following instead energy attacks/rake/grab/constrict. I can even take uber flight instead of martial weapon proficiency... Though why i'd do that instead of regular flight and wing buffet I'm not sure...


There is also the problem of Blasphemy, Dictum, Holy Word, Word of Chaos, dismissal and banishment. Once the Edilon has been sent back the summoner has to wait one day until he can bring it back. ..Unless he brought it back the previous day. But it still might be problematic.


Zark wrote:
There is also the problem of Blasphemy, Dictum, Holy Word, Word of Chaos, dismissal and banishment. Once the Edilon has been sent back the summoner has to wait one day until he can bring it back. ..Unless he brought it back the previous day. But it still might be problematic.

This is a possibly serious issue. Likely more so if your DM customizes the adventure. The Summoner's main power is in a creature that could be made to go away with a single spell. You can either be a power house or nothing. A SM with a CR of roughly half the monster you are fighting is not going to replace the Eidolon in combat. A way to bring it back when banished by a spell that is fair to the Summoner while also balanced has to be created.

You could get Dimensional Shackles if the prohibition on preventing creatures from going back to their home plane when the summoning spell ends doesn't apply to being forced to return to the home plane, but that is a rules discussion and not a solution.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Draeke Raefel wrote:
I was kind of sad at the Weapon Proficiency Evolution cost increase. I felt it was useable at the previous cost... now I can't really see taking it that often. I can take two of the following instead energy attacks/rake/grab/constrict. I can even take uber flight instead of martial weapon proficiency... Though why i'd do that instead of regular flight and wing buffet I'm not sure...

I'm not surprised they raised the price. Being able to wield a manufactured weapon with a high base attack bonus is easily the fastest way to make a big monster even nastier. A 15 HD ediolon with this evolution could potentially use a huge magical greatsword 3 times ALONG with almost all of his other natural attacks. That's pretty nasty.


Ravingdork wrote:

The summoner and his eidolon are not equal to...

...a cleric with the animal domain and his animal companion...
...a druid and his animal companion...
...a paladin and his mount...
...a ranger with his animal companion...
...a wizard with summon and calling spells...

...so one must wonder why the class exists at all. It has weaker spellcasting than most other classes, weaker combat ability, and a an eidolon which is roughly on par with animal companions (the latter of which have more HD, but not as many cool abilities).

I imagine, the way its going, most people won't want to play the class very often because they aren't playing the summoner so much as they are playing the eidolon itself. The summoner ends up just being there in a support role (and we all know how support roles, such as the cleric, are often looked over in favor of "an action class").

So you're saying you can't find a way to enjoy a caster that has a nice buff spell selection, an awesomely powerful pet, and can always summon the equivalent or better than the ranger/paladin/druid/cleric animal companion in addition to to Eidolon?

Essentially when you play the summoner, you get two characters instead of one. One is a good buffer, the other can be an awesome combat monster, with open access to all the bestiary feats.

As far as the changes go, all I can say is: Congratulations, you're no longer overpowered!


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Dedwrekka wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

The summoner and his eidolon are not equal to...

...a cleric with the animal domain and his animal companion...
...a druid and his animal companion...
...a paladin and his mount...
...a ranger with his animal companion...
...a wizard with summon and calling spells...
...a wizard with animate undead/create undead/create greater undead spells...

...so one must wonder why the class exists at all. It has weaker spellcasting than most other classes, weaker combat ability, and a an eidolon which is roughly on par with animal companions (the latter of which have more HD, but not as many cool abilities).

I imagine, the way its going, most people won't want to play the class very often because they aren't playing the summoner so much as they are playing the eidolon itself. The summoner ends up just being there in a support role (and we all know how support roles, such as the cleric, are often looked over in favor of "an action class").

So you're saying you can't find a way to enjoy a caster that has a nice buff spell selection, an awesomely powerful pet, and can always summon the equivalent or better than the ranger/paladin/druid/cleric animal companion in addition to to Eidolon?

Essentially when you play the summoner, you get two characters instead of one. One is a good buffer, the other can be an awesome combat monster, with open access to all the bestiary feats.

As far as the changes go, all I can say is: Congratulations, you're no longer overpowered!

Oh I'm sure I could find a way to have fun with it, but that has nothing to do with balance.

What I'm trying to say is that, as a complete package, the summoner/eidolon duo is weaker than many other duos you can get with the core classes already (some have misinterpreted my statement to mean that eidolons are weaker than other kinds of companion creatures, which isn't really true).


Yeah I'm not seeing the source of all the angst and anger in regards to the summoner. Previously the summoner was getting two characters for the price of one (a somewhat decent party buffer) + (a totally over-the-top melee badass) that means that the summoner had on average twice the action pool of the other non-pet using classes.

Now the summoner is a decent secondary fighter (d8 HP, medium BAB, light armor and simple weapons), decent team buffer/debuffer, decent battlefield controller (evard's, walls, fogs, etc), excellent creature summoner (SLA's plus spells like bindings), with a strong/flexible pet.

I'm not seeing much of a downside. He's less flexible than a wizard but we knew that was going to be the case. Comparing the eidolon to the paladin's mount is simply silly, and realistically the ranger's animal companion generally isn't that big of a threat.

So basically people are forced to pull out the druid to compare the summoner to. The druid definitely has some advantages over the summoner but honestly the animal companion isn't always a major help. It steadily gets outclassed by higher CR foes and while it provides a decent meatshield and flanking partner it simply isn't that flexible (you typically have a melee brute or a flanker as the options), further since it adds a body it can really mess up spells like teleport at midlevels (since those are basically built around 4 person parties).

I'm not saying that a summoner = druid because the druid (even in his toned down pathfinder ruleset) is one of the best all-around classes but in comparison to other half-casters like the bard it's pretty potent.

As for summon monsters not being useful, I'm not sure how most people play but in my campaigns party vs one CR +2 foe are uncommon encounters. It's much more common to face a CR +1 leader with a large number of CR-1/2 minions. In those cases being able to summon up a boatload of bodies to take up squares between you and the enemy means that they can't use numbers to overwhelm you. It also means that the party can focus on certain foes while the fodder takes the damage and by the time the enemy has cut through your meatshields they've taken damage and the PCs haven't taken nearly as much.

Personally I'd use the summons as disposable fodder (flanking attacks, some special attacks, etc) and reserve the eidolon and any planar bindings as my reserve force(losing them is more costly).

Sovereign Court

I think the nerf bat came out a bit big and a bit hard here. It seems they nerfed EVERYTHING on the Summoner. I would humbly suggest any of the following

1) Double cost of Armor Evolution but allowing it OR with restrictions
say the Eidolon must be 3HD/4HD to use Light Armor (2pt cost)
6HD/7HD to use Medium and finally (3 pt cost)
9HD/10HD to use Heavy (4 pt cost)
2) Allowing a Shield Only - Evolution with maybe 2pt cost for light/heavy shield and 3 to add tower capability. You could further limit this Evolution by stating that only arms can wield the shield and they must not possess the pincher or claw evolution. VERY REASONABLE IMO
3) I feel the reduced HD to the Eidolon should probably be reversed. Lets face it the Eidolon is really the Summoners damage contribution to most fights. Summoned monsters will probably most be used for meat shields and flanking and delay tactics rather than actual damage to opponents. This effects lower levels most especially <=6th lvl but is important.

Dark Archive

I like the changes on paper. We will playtest them this Saturday as the summoner in my ROTRL playtest switches over to the new rules.

love,

malkav

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