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I LOOOve what they did with Summoner as a DM I found that the playtest Ive been running since the class came out has proven the summoner to be extremely overpowered. The player using the old summoner was at seventh level with two other chars at 9th in a lev 9-10 campaign. The summoner with its pet were outright slaying everything; and BUFF chars do matter and make a huge difference in gameplay so im not upset that the actual summoner is simply a buff and summon character.. that is the point no? I will change to these new rules and am willing to bet that it will make the class more balanced in comparison to other rival classes.
I'm not sure how viable the eidolon is at higher levels, though, its HD seem to be fairly unimpressive and people have already pointed the vulnerability to HD-related magic. Has anyone tried playing with an eidolon having the HD equal to its summoner's level? With the rest of the changes it shouldn't make that much of an impact on the power level of the class.
It's not that I think the summoner as a class should be buffed, I just want their defining feature to be stronger. Druids, animal clerics, rangers and paladins are full casters or warriors first, and have a pet as an additional ability. I see the summoner as a pet owner first, caster second. That is why I would prefer a stronger eidolon even if other skills suffer slightly.
This could, arguably, be resolved via PrCs, but when the name of the class is summoner, well, you kinda expect it to be really good at summoning;) .
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I'm not sure how viable the eidolon is at higher levels, though, its HD seem to be fairly unimpressive and people have already pointed the vulnerability to HD-related magic. Has anyone tried playing with an eidolon having the HD equal to its summoner's level? With the rest of the changes it shouldn't make that much of an impact on the power level of the class.
It's not that I think the summoner as a class should be buffed, I just want their defining feature to be stronger. Druids, animal clerics, rangers and paladins are full casters or warriors first, and have a pet as an additional ability. I see the summoner as a pet owner first, caster second. That is why I would prefer a stronger eidolon even if other skills suffer slightly.
This could, arguably, be resolved via PrCs, but when the name of the class is summoner, well, you kinda expect it to be really good at summoning;) .
This would effect the power a bit... You'd get more skill points(20), more feats(2), more stat bonuses(1), higher hp( obviously ) and +5 bab at max level.
Having HD equal to the summoner's level would be overpowered I think. The eidolon (when properly equipped) is now equal to or better than the party fighter in nearly every way.
Having HD equal to the summoner's level would be overpowered I think. The eidolon (when properly equipped) is now equal to or better than the party fighter in nearly every way.
Except, of course, that the party fighter can't be dismissed or banished and isn't poofed by anti-magic effects.
I think the sumoners class is a great idea that falls short due to exception rules specifically created for the summoner. Like patching a hole in a ship with some loose board laying around.
Other Changes I think are bad
I think the loss of HD at level 1 for the Eidolon was bad call.
With the current spell list changes I think summoner should be changed to sorcerer spell progression. They need high level summon spells that are not tied into the SLA.
Having HD equal to the summoner's level would be overpowered I think. The eidolon (when properly equipped) is now equal to or better than the party fighter in nearly every way.Except, of course, that the party fighter can't be dismissed or banished and isn't poofed by anti-magic effects.
and doesn't loose its hp if it is 100' of more away from the party.
Having HD equal to the summoner's level would be overpowered I think. The eidolon (when properly equipped) is now equal to or better than the party fighter in nearly every way.Except, of course, that the party fighter can't be dismissed or banished and isn't poofed by anti-magic effects.and doesn't loose its hp if it is 100' of more away from the party.
And doesn't disable another character by being properly equipped (you know, like other companions just take gold, and not magic item slots).
And doesn't disable another character by being properly equipped (you know, like other companions just take gold, and not magic item slots).Having HD equal to the summoner's level would be overpowered I think. The eidolon (when properly equipped) is now equal to or better than the party fighter in nearly every way.Except, of course, that the party fighter can't be dismissed or banished and isn't poofed by anti-magic effects.and doesn't loose its hp if it is 100' of more away from the party.
ya that is a silly rule. I wonder if Druids animal companions are going to get errated with the same rule. They also have a link. It only make sense.
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The one thing I'll miss from the evolutions list: armor training. I see the eidolon as either support front line dd or tank depending on the equipment and evolutions used. But that's just the way I would like to play it. With the loss of that evolution, there's going to be evolution points that I won't have a need for.
I think the sumoners class is a great idea that falls short due to exception rules specifically created for the summoner. Like patching a hole in a ship with some loose board laying around.
Other Changes I think are bad
I think the loss of HD at level 1 for the Eidolon was bad call.
With the current spell list changes I think summoner should be changed to sorcerer spell progression. They need high level summon spells that are not tied into the SLA.
There are a number of changes that could be made which would seriously improve the class. Access to all summoning spells in the spell list (why make a third class specifically to summon that can only access Summon Monster?). Full progression of all summoning spells in the limited spell list (like previously). Augmented Summoning as a free feat. Ability to use Summon Nature's Ally or Summon Monster as the SLA.
Remove the 1/day limit on resummoning the Eidolon. Keep the "return with same amount of HP as dismissed with" rule. To have both that and the 1/day limit is silly. Make the summoning ritual take 10 minutes, that way, you can't return it in combat if it has been Banished. The whole class is balanced around the Eidolon. The summoning stuff is a secondary ability. Also silly is returning with half-hp after being dismissed via damage. If you are going to have to wait 24 hours, just bring it back with full HP; it's a reset.And make the "too far away from Summoner" rules less absurd. Treat it as having 1/2 HD dice at X feet, 1/4 HD at Y feet, and go away at Z feet. If it goes too far away, treat it as being killed by damage (which I assume was the point). When it returns from being too far away, it is automatically treated as having the respective HD again (with full health).
Why not let the Eidolon have armor? I doubt it was breaking anything.
Why not let the Eidolon have armor? I doubt it was breaking anything.
Oh, yes, it was. Eidolons with armor could hit 60 AC without using Evolution points or even denting their Summoner's cash (level 20 medium bipedal Eidolon = 33 AC without even touching armor. Now add +5 full plate and a +5 heavy shield, which only cost ~52,000g out of 880,000g for a level 20 Summoner, and you have 54 AC. Again, that's without touching a single evolution point or feat, and barely using 6% of available funds). There's nothing in the Bestiary that can reliably hit AC 60. Hell, there's nothing in the Bestiary that can reliably hit AC 50 (the Tarrasque needs a 13 to do so, which is a 40% chance). Eidolons could get significantly more than 60 AC without sacrificing any offense at all. It was definitely broken.
The one thing I'll miss from the evolutions list: armor training. I see the eidolon as either support front line dd or tank depending on the equipment and evolutions used. But that's just the way I would like to play it. With the loss of that evolution, there's going to be evolution points that I won't have a need for.
I don't have an issue with this. You can spend the points on natural armor evolution. 2 points gets you 4 ac which is like a chain shirt.
Oh, yes, it was. Eidolons with armor could hit 60 AC without using Evolution points or even denting their Summoner's cash (level 20 medium bipedal Eidolon = 33 AC without even touching armor. Now add +5 full plate and a +5 heavy shield, which only cost ~52,000g out of 880,000g for a level 20 Summoner, and you have 54 AC. Again, that's without touching a single evolution point or feat, and barely using 6% of available funds).
I meant rather let it use evolution points or feats to qualify for armor/shield.
There's nothing in the Bestiary that can reliably hit AC 60. Hell, there's nothing in the Bestiary that can reliably hit AC 50 (the Tarrasque needs a 13 to do so, which is a 40% chance). Eidolons could get significantly more than 60 AC without sacrificing any offense at all. It was definitely broken.
I am curious how it could hit 33 without evolution points or feats...
I am curious how it could hit 33 without evolution points or feats...
A medium bipedal Eidolon has 12 Dex and +2 Natural Armor to start with. That puts it at 13. A level 20 Eidolon gets +8 Dex and +16 Natural Armor on top of that, for a total of +20 AC, bringing it to 33.
I think the +16 supersedes the +2...
so it is 10 + 16 + 5 = 31
But I will give it to you. +16 is a large amount of natural armor.
I think the +16 supersedes the +2...
so it is 10 + 16 + 5 = 31
But I will give it to you. +16 is a large amount of natural armor.
No, the +16 is a bonus to the natural armor, which means it goes on top of the +2.
No, the +16 is a bonus to the natural armor, which means it goes on top of the +2.I think the +16 supersedes the +2...
so it is 10 + 16 + 5 = 31
But I will give it to you. +16 is a large amount of natural armor.
Ah, I see it now. You're right.
Honestly, I would have preferred having the natural armor bonuses cut in half across the board, and keep the armor training in. So a level 20 would have 10+9+5=24 AC without evolutions or armor. That's not bad, but hittable. Add in a +5 Full Plate and you get 38 AC, but at a significant cost (bigger cost if it's barding for a quadruped).
I'm probably going to house-rule that change, I need to mull it over some more.
That's a far better idea. And you could add other armor enchantments to the Eidolon.
That's a far better idea. And you could add other armor enchantments to the Eidolon.
And that's mainly the reason I'd have done it that way. Currently there's no way to give the Eidelon armor enchantments that I know of. Can't give him bracers of armor (can you? If so, then the whole 'can't wear bracers' is broken). And I don't like the taking summoner's item slots, there is no other class in the system with a pet or a summon that shares item slots, it's clunky (IMNSHO, I would use IMHO but I'm sure someone would jump on me and say I'm in no way H. ;).
Honestly I think with the reduced HD, cutting armor in half and allowing the Eidelon to have equipment (that stays on it if it's dismissed) balances out. You still have to spend your money on two sets of equipment, and more than likely ALL that equipment is going to have to be special made at a premium (unless your Eidelon is a medium sized humanoid).
Honestly, I would have preferred having the natural armor bonuses cut in half across the board, and keep the armor training in. So a level 20 would have 10+9+5=24 AC without evolutions or armor. That's not bad, but hittable. Add in a +5 Full Plate and you get 38 AC, but at a significant cost (bigger cost if it's barding for a quadruped).
I'm probably going to house-rule that change, I need to mull it over some more.
Then that'd be yet another area where Animal Companions are better than Eidolons. ACs get +12 natural armor at level 20. The reason it's not as big a deal for them (before someone jumps in with that...) is their offense is lower.
Then that'd be yet another area where Animal Companions are better than Eidolons. ACs get +12 natural armor at level 20. The reason it's not as big a deal for them (before someone jumps in with that...) is their offense is lower.Honestly, I would have preferred having the natural armor bonuses cut in half across the board, and keep the armor training in. So a level 20 would have 10+9+5=24 AC without evolutions or armor. That's not bad, but hittable. Add in a +5 Full Plate and you get 38 AC, but at a significant cost (bigger cost if it's barding for a quadruped).
I'm probably going to house-rule that change, I need to mull it over some more.
See, I'd call that a wash, not better. If the AC's offense is lower, then a higher defense is perfectly acceptable. An AC might have an Armor Class (hate it when acronyms end up the same, AC = Animal Companion, AC = Armor Class) of 27 or 28, but, he's only cranking 2/3rds the damage of the Eidelon. The Eidelon would have a lower AC (sans equipment) but would crank more damage. Add in an evolution tax to wear armor (2 = light, 3 = medium, 4 = heavy, and limited by rank, light = level 3, medium = level 8, heavy = level 13) and you have something balanced against the AC, IMNSHO.
But Eidolons aren't supposed to be balanced against Animal Companions. They're supposed to be better. If they aren't better, than the Summoner fails, because the Summoner himself is very definitely worse than a Druid sans Companion.
One thing nobody has mentioned, not sure if anyone has realized it, but with the HD changes, a summoner is just about shut out of multiclassing, you pretty much have to be a summoner and nothing but a summoner. Unless they have a feat or something that lets you stack AC with Eidelon levels. Before someone jumps on that, I don't think it would be a big game breaker, say druid/summoner or ranger/summoner or paladin/summoner (whew, wouldn't that be nice, a paladin on a summoned mount, egads images of Odin summon from Final Fantasy).
They'd not gain their SLA or spells obviously (and honestly the SLA is a major power now that they nerfed the Eidelon and boosted the SLA back to it's starting position).
But Eidolons aren't supposed to be balanced against Animal Companions. They're supposed to be better. If they aren't better, than the Summoner fails, because the Summoner himself is very definitely worse than a Druid sans Companion.
I just meant that it was a wash in that particular aspect, that is, in offense vs defense. I think the Eidelon still wins out over the AC due to their mutability. A summoner can change his eidelon to fit the situation with a little notice (since he can alter his evolutions with a spell in the field). So if I know I'm assaulting a keep in two days, I can rebuild my Eidelon as a huge hulking brute with four arms and 30 strength and have him toss boulders at the wall. If I know I'm sneaking into a keep in two days, I can make him a small dextrous snake type with boosts to his stealth and perception, give him a set of arms and a skill boost to pick locks, and detect traps for giggles.
In regards to armour not being allowed it occurs to me that another reason they dropped the evolution is because it would be way to much of a headache to try and work pricing (Armour at the moment being based on being put on a human form)
No, there are already rules for that. In general, non-humanoid forms double the cost for the appropriate size of armor. Medium sized non-humanoid armor is 2x the cost, Large sized non-humanoid armor is 4x the cost, etc. The chart is on page 153 of the Core Rulebook ("Armor for Unusual Creatures").
In regards to armour not being allowed it occurs to me that another reason they dropped the evolution is because it would be way to much of a headache to try and work pricing (Armour at the moment being based on being put on a human form)
They already have rules for unusual armor shapes, like barding etc. You'd just use those. The big issue would be if you changed the base form, you are out all the cost of the armor (which again, is a self balancing factor).
Except those rules don't take into account things like six sets of arms, three tails, or having a mass of tentacles.
Actually, yes it does. It modifies the cost. As the GM, you could set a higher DC to make the armor for a 10 tentacle mosnter, but as far as cost goes, the rules say 'non-humanoid' not 'for quadruped'. Like many things in D&D/PF the rules are very generic to account for as many issues as possible. As a GM, you could always add an additional multiplier on as well of course.
Except those rules don't take into account things like six sets of arms, three tails, or having a mass of tentacles.
..and? "unusual creature" = "unusual creature"
I thought a summoner can only change the form/evolutions of his eidelon when he levels?A summoner can change his eidelon to fit the situation with a little notice (since he can alter his evolutions with a spell in the field).
No,
There will be a spell in the AGP (per Jason) that allows them to change it by casting the spell. They just didn't release that spell with the playtest.
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A summoner can change his eidelon to fit the situation with a little notice (since he can alter his evolutions with a spell in the field).
I thought a summoner could only change the form/evolutions of his eidelon when he levels?
EDIT: sorry, I deleted my original post, and reposted. but thanks for the reply mdt.
A summoner can change his eidelon to fit the situation with a little notice (since he can alter his evolutions with a spell in the field).I thought a summoner could only change the form/evolutions of his eidelon when he levels?
EDIT: sorry, I deleted my original post, and reposted. but thanks for the reply mdt.
Lol, and now it looks like I am psychic, I love it. :)
Where did you see this new spell, anyway?
It's mentioned in the Eidolon class feature (it's called transmogrify) and Jason explained in the first playtest that it will have an expensive materiel component but allow the re-evolving of an Eidolon. No more specific details were given. We do not know that it will allow a full "respec" so to speak.
Similar could be said of every other class. The feats that combine class abilities that benefit multiclassers don't exist in pathfinder (outside of 3.5 books) at present. Druids/rangers/clerics don't get better animal companions, spell slingers don't get better spells, about the only people that benefit from it at current are melee combatants. So it's not really a Summoner issue.One thing nobody has mentioned, not sure if anyone has realized it, but with the HD changes, a summoner is just about shut out of multiclassing, you pretty much have to be a summoner and nothing but a summoner. Unless they have a feat or something that lets you stack AC with Eidelon levels. Before someone jumps on that, I don't think it would be a big game breaker, say druid/summoner or ranger/summoner or paladin/summoner (whew, wouldn't that be nice, a paladin on a summoned mount, egads images of Odin summon from Final Fantasy).
They'd not gain their SLA or spells obviously (and honestly the SLA is a major power now that they nerfed the Eidelon and boosted the SLA back to it's starting position).
Not true, actually. There's a trait in one of the Pathfinder supplements that works like 3.5 Practiced Spellcaster for Animal Companions.
Having HD equal to the summoner's level would be overpowered I think. The eidolon (when properly equipped) is now equal to or better than the party fighter in nearly every way.Except, of course, that the party fighter can't be dismissed or banished and isn't poofed by anti-magic effects.
Yes one feature of the summoner class is vulnerable to a few 6th+ level spells. Many of which are not commonly prepared. However a summoner is not exclusively his eidolon. The pet is a massive bonus to the summoner but it's clearly not all there is in the arsenal.
The summon SLAs for the summoner are still incredibly useful (especially no GP cost Gate) and it has access to a decent number of battlefield control spells.
On top of that the summoner can easily be a decent supplemental fighter with his medium BAB and d8 HP. He'll probably want to be an archer summoner but that's still supplemental damage.
So realistically the summoner given time to prep will have the following action pool any given combat
- Summoner Actions - cast spell or archery
- Eidolon Actions - beat people down close combat
- Summoned Monster via SLA - function as meat shields, grapple, flank, use SLAs
- Summoned Monster via spell - see above
Later on we get to add yet another action pool for the inevitable planar binding victim. Need more actions during your turn? Leadership Feat (Summoner Cohort) :|
Basically the summoner needs to think like a general, he's got access to a lot of bodies and while none of them are individually as powerful as a member of another class (except those creatures called for free via the gate SLA) collectively they can wear down most foes the party is going to face.
Action spam is the name of game with the summoner and while others can do it as well, the summoner can do it in an extremely effective and efficient manner.
Now I do think that an argument can be made that full progression divine casting is greater than half progression arcane but the simple fact of the matter is that the designers do not agree with you. The Bard is a mediocre caster and mediocre fighter with some extra abilities. The summoner is a mediocre caster and mediocre fighter with extra abilities. I'm not seeing where summoner is out of line with the other arcane half-casters.
Yes one feature of the summoner class is vulnerable to a few 6th+ level spells. Many of which are not commonly prepared. However a summoner is not exclusively his eidolon.
The ONLY class ability the Summoner has aside from the Eidolon abilities is the Summon Monster SLA. That's it. I would say that is 50% of class abilities are Eidolon but given the very simplistic and weak nature of the SM SLA, I would say 80% of the class is Eidolon. *Discounting the 2/3 limited spell casting*
The pet is a massive bonus to the summoner but it's clearly not all there is in the arsenal.
Yes, it does have some fodder to help it stay alive until it can summon the eidolon again. Hopefully.
So let's take the Druid and prevent it from Wildshaping. That is maybe 1/3 as much of a hindrance as the Summoner without the Eidolon.
<snip very off-target rant>
ALL of that is besides the point. You didn't actually address my post or the post it was responding to at all.
This would effect the power a bit... You'd get more skill points(20), more feats(2), more stat bonuses(1), higher hp( obviously ) and +5 bab at max level.
Wait, the current Eidolon iirc caps at 17 HD. You seem to be calculating the bonuses for 5 extra HD, not 3.
And yes, this would make the eidolon somewhat stronger, that's the point. As I said, this is the Summoner's chief ability, I would like it to be notably stronger than the druid's pet or the cavalier's horse. If some of his other goodies have to be nerfed for it (slightly), I could live with it.
I am DMing a summoner (1st level). We just had our first session and he seemed fairly capable. His eidolon did go down a bit early, but that was the result of a critical fumble card from the ranger . . .
However, the summoner held his own and the sheer amount of summon monster I he had kept him engaged in combat.
This would effect the power a bit... You'd get more skill points(20), more feats(2), more stat bonuses(1), higher hp( obviously ) and +5 bab at max level.Wait, the current Eidolon iirc caps at 17 HD. You seem to be calculating the bonuses for 5 extra HD, not 3.
And yes, this would make the eidolon somewhat stronger, that's the point. As I said, this is the Summoner's chief ability, I would like it to be notably stronger than the druid's pet or the cavalier's horse. If some of his other goodies have to be nerfed for it (slightly), I could live with it.
They dropped the HD across the board. It now maxes at 15.
I thought a summoner can only change the form/evolutions of his eidelon when he levels?A summoner can change his eidelon to fit the situation with a little notice (since he can alter his evolutions with a spell in the field).No,
There will be a spell in the AGP (per Jason) that allows them to change it by casting the spell. They just didn't release that spell with the playtest.
Now that is interesting. That would really make the summoner's eidolon more versatile.
They said the spell (transmogrify) would have a "costly component". Anymore elaboration however wasn't given, that I know of.
I'm not really sure what to make of the magical item change. On the one hand I can understand it. Esp at middle/high levels, the Summoner would just be in the 2nd tier set of gear while Big E was what he got for his primary stuff. Sure, its still money but you are still fairly well setup and actually end up with two fairly well geared out "characters" (so to speak).
On the other hand though- now you end up with either a crappy summoner with no gear (who will just end up dying very easily due to not having appropriate gear) or a strongly geared summoner with an eidolon who'll die with a mob glances in their direction. (a problem at mid-high levels more so than the early ones).
The more I think about it though the more I lean towards the second being the bigger problem than the first. Choosing whether or not your character or his pet has to live when he's the primary class ability seems very, very weak to me.
While I want to play the class, this seems like a very big deal breaker to me. Its something that you can't just change tactics for or work around. You have to choose to either give your summoner enough gear to survive, or to buff your eidolon. Its a very severe decision that really shouldn't have to be made, imo.
-S
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What's up with losing the spells that made the summoner good (not better than a Conjurer at, but at least able to keep up with a Wizard in what level they get a spell at) at what they would logically be good at, spell-wise?
As for eidolon healing... Well it makes some sense to treat it more as a companion than a summoned monster, and noone complains about having to heal animal companions, however, as others have pointed out, right now it makes sense to intentionally kill an almost-dead eidolon to get it back at half HP and that's not right. (It would help if the summoner had some way to heal his eidolon -- perhaps the ability to spontaneous cure (at competitive levels, IE cure critical wounds if you sacrifice a 3rd level spell -- or maybe at regular levels, but certainly not at worse levels like the Witch as he's already not a full caster) but only on his eidolon? Maybe he's just expected to UMD a wand of cure light wounds (or lesser vigor if you've got 3.5 material allowed))? Giving it natural healing, or perhaps even letting it heal 1/2 its HP with an eight hour rest?
Also, while it makes flavorful sense, the fact that a class can be crippled so horribly by even a 4th level spell (dismissal) seems bad from a balance perspective. (Sure, a wizard is rendered useless by an antimagic field, but that's a 8th level spell and it covers only a small piece of the battlefield! Also it affects whoever cast it as well). I'm not sure what a good alternative that respects the flavor is though... Perhaps it takes damage or suffers a status effect instead?
...an eidolon which is roughly on par with animal companions...
?!?
please, if this statement sounds even remotely sensible, read my post beginning the thread "summoners are outrageous"