Rivers Run Red (GM Reference)

[Warforged Gardener]

Jason Nelson wrote:

DanP wrote:

Along the lines of the above posts, looking for some perspective here. I am running Kingmaker for some experienced players, and the troll lair was anticlimatic since the party used hold person (trolls are humanoids with bad will saves) and then coupe de grace full round actions before they could recover.

There are more trolls and giants in the future books, and I guess I will make sure they all have clerics with dispel magic hanging around to make things a bit more challenging. More than anything, I am frustrated that the spell - instead of hold monster - works on them and am considering some sort of house rule (though that would feel like a takeaway).

You could have lower level clerics with remove paralysis and it would automatically work, rather than having to roll vs. PCs' higher caster level.

Also, you can avert the tactic by simply having multiple enemies present at a time. Doing a coup de grace provokes AoOs; if multiple trolls are present with reach, they can wail on people trying to pull of a CDG. Single-target SoS spells become vastly less awesome when you can't gang up on single targets.

Coup de grace works on trolls? Wouldn't the trolls get at least another round to save while the fighters kept slicing away until they were wounded enough to kill with a lit match?

[Bigrin da Troll]

I would rule that the troll automatically succeeds on the FORT save vs death if its regeneration is functioning that round - though having just read the sections on regeneration and coup-de-grace I note the situation is not specifically addressed by the rules.

Though I must point out that most trolls are perfectly nice people who just want to be left alone to eat whatever they find - be it animal, vegetable, or mineral. We are woefully misunderstood by adventurers who have been listening to too much dwarven propaganda.

[Jason Nelson]

Warforged Gardener wrote:

Jason Nelson wrote:

DanP wrote:

Along the lines of the above posts, looking for some perspective here. I am running Kingmaker for some experienced players, and the troll lair was anticlimatic since the party used hold person (trolls are humanoids with bad will saves) and then coupe de grace full round actions before they could recover.

There are more trolls and giants in the future books, and I guess I will make sure they all have clerics with dispel magic hanging around to make things a bit more challenging. More than anything, I am frustrated that the spell - instead of hold monster - works on them and am considering some sort of house rule (though that would feel like a takeaway).

You could have lower level clerics with remove paralysis and it would automatically work, rather than having to roll vs. PCs' higher caster level.

Also, you can avert the tactic by simply having multiple enemies present at a time. Doing a coup de grace provokes AoOs; if multiple trolls are present with reach, they can wail on people trying to pull of a CDG. Single-target SoS spells become vastly less awesome when you can't gang up on single targets.

Coup de grace works on trolls? Wouldn't the trolls get at least another round to save while the fighters kept slicing away until they were wounded enough to kill with a lit match?

The way regen works in PF is that applying fire/acid (or whatever breaks regen for the creature in question - those are just the two most common) stops regeneration from working for 1 round. During that round, the monster doesn't heal damage and can be killed, whether by being beaten to -CON hit points or getting CDG'ed.

If you have a flaming weapon, you can get both in one action.

You might get away with being able to CDG with a lit torch as an improvised weapon, though your damage is going to be kind of low and the troll might just make the save.

You can't CDG with a flask of acid or alchemist's fire or a spell or similar effect that does fire acid damage; the CDG rule is specific: melee weapon, bow, crossbow. That's it.

HOWEVER, you can have one character hit the held troll for fire/acid damage and somebody ELSE CDG it. It only has to be damage, not a lot of damage. In fact, if you throw a flask of acid for 1 point of splash damage against two adjacent trolls, they BOTH lose their regeneration for 1 round.

[Jason Nelson]

Bigrin da Troll wrote:

I would rule that the troll automatically succeeds on the FORT save vs death if its regeneration is functioning that round - though having just read the sections on regeneration and coup-de-grace I note the situation is not specifically addressed by the rules.

If its regeneration is functioning, it can't be killed by normal means, including CDG. It's still subject to death at 0 CON from poison or disease, death from negative levels, and things like that.

CDG says "you die" on a failed save.

Regeneration says "you cannot die" except by effects that don't cause hp damage.

I guess you could try to argue that an attack for auto-crit damage that forces a Fort save isn't an attack that causes hp damage... but you'd be WRONG! :) Sez me.

Interestingly, since most "death effects" cause hp damage now, regeneration works against them too, unless they bypass hp (like, say, phantasmal killer, power word kill, and the like). I'd say destruction, which "if it slays you" consumes your body in un/holy fire, should probably work, even though it isn't TECHNICALLY killing you on a failed save, but that's just me.

Bigrin da Troll wrote:

Though I must point out that most trolls are perfectly nice people who just want to be left alone to eat whatever they find - be it animal, vegetable, or mineral. We are woefully misunderstood by adventurers who have been listening to too much dwarven propaganda.

But of course... :)

[wraithstrike]

Where is the missing Tannersen kid. I think in the future they should like quest to page numbers in the book.

[James Jacobs]

wraithstrike wrote:

Where is the missing Tannersen kid. I think in the future they should like quest to page numbers in the book.

He's at the isle of the lizard king; see page 39.

[Zen79]

Jason Nelson wrote:

Troll regeneration stuff

Does the regeneration allow trolls to make a forced march forever without suffering any consequences, as all non-lethal damage would be removed by regeneration the next round?

I ask because we had a scene where the group fled from a 2 Troll random encounter with a forced march. In the end, they had to leave a juicy horse behind to distract the trolls from their track... but would they have been able to outrun the Trolls if they had tried?

[Jason Nelson]

Zen79 wrote:

Jason Nelson wrote:

Troll regeneration stuff

Does the regeneration allow trolls to make a forced march forever without suffering any consequences, as all non-lethal damage would be removed by regeneration the next round?

I ask because we had a scene where the group fled from a 2 Troll random encounter with a forced march. In the end, they had to leave a juicy horse behind to distract the trolls from their track... but would they have been able to outrun the Trolls if they had tried?

Interesting. Regeneration doesn't help vs. starvation, thirst, or suffocation.

But apparently it does help vs. exhaustion. Looks like trolls are essentially as tireless as they want to be.

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

Jason Nelson wrote:

Zen79 wrote:

Jason Nelson wrote:

Troll regeneration stuff

Does the regeneration allow trolls to make a forced march forever without suffering any consequences, as all non-lethal damage would be removed by regeneration the next round?

I ask because we had a scene where the group fled from a 2 Troll random encounter with a forced march. In the end, they had to leave a juicy horse behind to distract the trolls from their track... but would they have been able to outrun the Trolls if they had tried?

Interesting. Regeneration doesn't help vs. starvation, thirst, or suffocation.

But apparently it does help vs. exhaustion. Looks like trolls are essentially as tireless as they want to be.

Although they can keep cutting chunks of themselves and eating it, regenerating the damage next round... ewww... But I could imagine a great encounter with a troll at the bottom of a pit driven mad due to self-cannibalism.

[thenovalord]

blimey

6 sessions into module 2, and even though we play fast, still the 2 big dungeony bits to do and kingdom is only 14 hexes or so

this mod is vast

12 sessions altogether, most of the party hit 6th level last week

no PC deaths yet!!

[Leonal]

My group eventually got to the troll lair yesterday after a bunch of searching in the forest due to not knowing the exact location, waiting to see if some trolls would attack their empire, and having to track down Munguk to get the location (they saw some of his tracks in the forest).

Maybe I GMed it poorly by not adjusting the DC 25 survival check needed to find the lair, but after both hearing about increased troll activity and getting a charter from Restov the party was rather upset that the only way to find it was either by getting a very high survival check or tracking down a giant whom they didn't really know would know the location.

I'd recommend lowering the DC if your group doesn't have anyone with a very high survival skill and/or tracking ability and/or letting some of the few in the forest know about it too.

They're well into 6th level with a wizard (conjurer), Sorcerer (draconic), Barbarian and a Cleric (negative channeling).

Had bigger success once they got to the lair though, and they've retreated outside to recover after clearing R2,R3,R4. Trolls surely hit hard!^^

[Leonal]

Leonal wrote:

stuff

I guess maybe I wrongly used the 25 DC for tracking increased troll activity too, and not just if they randomly stumbled into the hex.

A suggestion that the Old Beldame knew about the lair, or at least that the giant would know would have helped a lot for a still newbie GM with several years experience.^^;

[Jason Nelson]

It would probably also be worth your while to highly suggest that SOMEONE in the party be skilled in Survival, or that they hire a tracker or guide (or get a cohort or familiar or animal companion with good Survival), since for an outdoors exploration-focused AP like this it's going to be a mission-critical skill pretty often. It's most important in the first two mods, which you are mostly through, but it will continue being important on down the line.

[Leonal]

Jason Nelson wrote:

It would probably also be worth your while to highly suggest that SOMEONE in the party be skilled in Survival, or that they hire a tracker or guide (or get a cohort or familiar or animal companion with good Survival), since for an outdoors exploration-focused AP like this it's going to be a mission-critical skill pretty often. It's most important in the first two mods, which you are mostly through, but it will continue being important on down the line.

All things considered 3 of the 4 party members have maxed or nearly maxed survival (6-7 bonus). They felt very railroaded when I hinted them towards Munguk in order to find the place.

However, I guess I failed as I didn't explain to the group that the troll tracks stopped or disappeared in the hex the lair is and as such gave them no clue which hex the lair was in. Thus I should have allowed normal survival rules to find which hex, and then to take 20 to find the lair in the hex.

Hopefully will make for better GMing next session.^^

[thenovalord]

my party have made friendly contact with Munguk last session

The parties sorceress couldnt be persuaded to go 'enlarged' to make the contact even more 'giant friendly'.

They are on about 25,000xp now so on course for a level 7 finish (there is about 22k of xp in troll lair alone)

[Tolroy]

My players are currently working on expanding their cities a good bit, and I would love to have some clarifications on a few questions.

Question 1- The rules say that a multiple block building can cross roads. Does that mean a Castle can be built where one block of it is in four different districts? If a multiple building spans two districts, can a wall be placed between the districts?

Question 2- What happens when an event destroys a house that is needed for another building?

Question 3- The rules for selling magic items state that items need to be worth at least 4000 to be sold. If I roll a minor magic item that is worth less than 4000 gold, then should I allow the players to roll to sell the item with for no BP? This would allow them to clear the space for next month.

I also want to give a big thanks out to the writers of these rules. With a few homerules, the nation building rules will find a home in many campaigns I run later down the line.

[Jason Nelson]

Tolroy wrote:

My players are currently working on expanding their cities a good bit, and I would love to have some clarifications on a few questions.

Question 1- The rules say that a multiple block building can cross roads. Does that mean a Castle can be built where one block of it is in four different districts? If a multiple building spans two districts, can a wall be placed between the districts?

Question 2- What happens when an event destroys a house that is needed for another building?

Question 3- The rules for selling magic items state that items need to be worth at least 4000 to be sold. If I roll a minor magic item that is worth less than 4000 gold, then should I allow the players to roll to sell the item with for no BP? This would allow them to clear the space for next month.

I also want to give a big thanks out to the writers of these rules. With a few homerules, the nation building rules will find a home in many campaigns I run later down the line.

Unofficial answers would be:

1. Don't have buildings span districts; it's hardly necessary. If for some reason you want to do it, span away, but I'd suggest it would preclude building a wall along that facing of a district.

2. I'd say the accompanying building becomes non-functional until you can rebuild the housing block to support it (think of it as the displaced workers not showing up to work because they're too busy rebuilding).

3. Yes, they can buy them outright themselves (as they can always do) to clear the slot, or they can use one of their "one per city district" sales rolls to sell it off into the NPC-ether for no net gain, other than clearing the slot.

[Caineach]

Tolroy wrote:

Question 3- The rules for selling magic items state that items need to be worth at least 4000 to be sold. If I roll a minor magic item that is worth less than 4000 gold, then should I allow the players to roll to sell the item with for no BP? This would allow them to clear the space for next month.

Just on this one, I know that later on some people have gotten a lot of minor items clogging their stores never selling. Someone proposed that there should be a small chance that minor items sell each month for no bennefit on their own. A 5to25% chance would work for this, so that you get some variety. It depends on how many you have and if its a problem that they have become stagnant.

[William Morgan]

Question 3- The rules for selling magic items state that items need to be worth at least 4000 to be sold. If I roll a minor magic item that is worth less than 4000 gold, then should I allow the players to roll to sell the item with for no BP? This would allow them to clear the space for next month.

This i one thing that me and the other GM Running Kingmanker games do not understand. In RR it is $4000 for a build point and in WRK it is 500 gold for a build point. I belive that a build point gives you $2000 Gold if you cash it in.

[Tolroy]

Thank you Jason and Caineach. I will probably use Jason's suggestions for most of my questions, but it would be interesting to have items sell off on their own.

I might also use the random kingdom event where a sensational crime spree occurs in the kingdom to "help" the PCs move minor magic items out.

[thenovalord]

session 15 overall, and no 7 of RRR

maybe my fav session so far

6 excellent fights

2 social scenes

lots personal & campaign quests fulfilled

over 32,000xp earned in 4 hours!

my melee light party even beat 4 trolls in a straight up fight (id even added javelins & slings to the trolls to show they are adapting to the kingdoms rulers tactics)

tendrolicous swallowed the baron

2 wyverns attacked them while on the lake, some poison got through, but the party prevailed right on the shore of their town, so they looked good

hammered the forest drake

marvellous fun all round....all hail Paizo (& my group)

[thenovalord]

session 17 and RRR finished

through the whole dungeon at them more or less at once

the poor little owlbear got brutalised and taunted by the mirror imaged / AC 31 'touch-built' sorceress

very enjoyable, and cant wait for TVV!!

[Zen79]

Started RRR yesterday. The "cool move" of the evening happened when the elven monk dared to enter the swamp wich's yard unbidden and was promptly attacked by the scarecrow. Annoyed by its fascinating gaze, he successfully used the Dirty Trick combat maneuver to pull the scarecrow's hat down over its eyes, blinding it and giving the fascinated halfling cavalier a 2nd saving throw (my ruling, as the fascination comes from the glowing eyes). Great fun!

[Charles Evans 25]

(Edited, tidied up)
I'd like to comment that this adventure feels very witch unfriendly. The nature of the exploration mechanics makes it difficult anyway for spell-casters who have to prepare spells since they're never quite sure what they're going to end up facing, and the nastiest encounters on the random table all have a high degree of immunity to a witch. The various magical beasts, aberrations, dragons, and humanoid(giants) encountered tend to have high Fort saves which shrug off things like ray of enfeeblement, blindness/deafness, and burning gaze, and the really bad boys - the will-o’-wisps, trolls, and shambling mounds all variously ignore, regenerate, or worse still benefit from the only moderate level Reflex save damage spell in the witch's regular spell-list, lightning bolt. (Plus there aren't any corridors in a random wilderness encounter for larger groups of smaller animals to nicely line up in to be zapped by lightning bolt, and using a lightning bolt to damage one worg in a pack leaves half a dozen more unharmed. Granted an elements patron witch is somewhat better off here with fireball as a bonus spell once she reaches 6th level.)
The healing hex and fortune hexes are moderately useful, until you get a second random encounter in a day (as occasionally happens) at which point once a day per character hexes are of no use to characters who needed them in the first encounter. If a witch can get a misfortune hex to stick on a single big enemy that does rather swing a fight, with maintenance (if I understand correctly) of the hex round after round after round by constant cackling locking that enemy into much reduced effectiveness, but misfortune is an all-or-nothing hex which means the witch has wasted her action when a target does make a save.
As far as I can determine, a witch’s best bet for Rivers Run Red is to load up on summon monster spells and supply endless cannon-fodder (fire elementals are particularly humorous against most creatures with only natural attacks and no fire resistance), but at that point you may as well be playing a summoner, not a witch, given that the summoner does summoning (by definition) so much better…

Edit:
Hmm, Use Magic Device appears to be on the witch skill list, but unfortunately with Intelligence as the witch’s prime requisite, not Charisma, the odds of using a wand successfully at the levels Rivers Run Red is aimed at are *not* in a witch’s favour unless she aims her feats at bolstering Use Magic Device.

Further Edit:
The fact that (as far as I can see thus far) a witch is reduced to such a second string class by Rivers Run Red is more a comment I feel on the (still-newish) witch class than any fault of the overall good Rivers Run Red. (Even the fiction is by Mr. Pett and rocks. Enter this issue of Pathfinder for the Ennies next year if at all possible, I urge you! :D )

[Charles Evans 25]

Commenting here, not wanting to further occupy the kingdom building thread with my thoughts over treasure in Rivers Run Red, it seems to me to get *very* tight in terms of level appropriate gear if a four man PC party doesn't chop all and sundry NPCs to pieces plus loot their stuff and then can't use or miss out on two or more of the '+2 or equivalent' weapons. These weapons would cost in excess of 16,000 gp each on the open market, and represent a significant percentage of the magical gear available to bolster PC equipment in Rivers Run Red as far as I can see. After the BP and permanent modifiers available by completing various quests to boost kingdom stats, these weapons are the backbone of the rewards for the party, and there are four of them:

The Fey Bane weapon from the barrow, once repaired. (This is the equivalent of +3 once the bane quality is factored in and would cost over 36,000 gp on the open market if the PCs wanted to buy it - it's by far the best piece of treasure in the adventure for PCs to find, and the adventure does at least state it should be adapted to suit the weapon using needs of a party member.)

The +1 keen spear from the Hodag lair.

The +1 keen trident Vesket, king of the lizardfolk, wields.

The +1 large darkwood thundering morning star Hargulka uses.

Whilst the spear in the hodag lair is at least a simple weapon, usable by most characters, it may not actually be a weapon that any character is focused/specialised in... Still, at least a melee specialist with high strength specialised in something else could throw it as a ranged weapon to open a combat.

Vesket and Hargulka's weapons are more problematic. Parties which (after dealing with the will-o'-wisp) use Diplomacy on the lizardfolk may not get to kill Vesket and take his valuable weapon. This may well put them behind the wealth by level curve by the end of the adventure. Hargulka's weapon, being sized large, comes with a -2 penalty to use (-4 if non-proficient) if the user is only a medium sized creature, and small creatures will be unable to use it. If ever there was an item in Rivers Run Red which needed an option to trade it in for an equivalent GP worth of good's it's Hargulka's morningstar.
Okay, to some extent PCs can 'catch up' for unusable treasures by selling them at half price. Unless that gold can be turned back into items effectively by item crafters in the party, this act puts the PCs behind where they otherwise could be in terms of gear and wealth by level. And I think that if the PCs make peaceful overtures to the lizardfolk, they really need some sort of tribute or exchange of gifts very much in their favour to make up for the trident.
Hmm, maybe if the party signs a peace accord, Vesket could lay his weapon at the PCs' feet, as a gesture: 'You killed the false spirit, have forgiven our stealing of the man-child, and have spoken of peace. You are my tribe's protectors now.'

Edit:
The Old Beldame has a +1 spell storing quarterstaff, but the PCs are really doing themselves a disfavour given her high potential value as an ally (and possible kingdom official) if they kill her.
There is the +1 (conditionally human bane) dagger at Candlemere Tower, but fighting an endless procession of will-o'-wisps at 5th-6th character level when half the party may well be shaken and sickened is a nuisance, and hanging around to search the place is probably the last thing on a lot of PCs' minds. Besides, it has the activation condition of needing to coup de grace a human with it which reduces its value I suspect.
Eirikk's +2 Chain Shirt and Nagrundi's +2 Amulet of Natural Armor are the next most valuable items lying around I think...

Further Edit:
Okay, upon further reflection it looks tight - very tight - but is probably just the right side of character wealth by level for a four man party without BP raids assuming the PCs don't get carried away and start selling off permanent items to buy dozens of consumables to 'nova' encounters.

[thenovalord]

random encounters

CR 6 gives 2000gp of treasure

some beasties shoiuld have none, so boost in others

im working on every 3 encounters having about 6k or so of 'hoarde'

[avgbountyhunter]

Quick question about the Will-o'-Wisps. The Cleric in my group wants to use Purge Invisibility to see the Wisp and I'm not sure if it should work or not. Is the Will-o'-Wisp immune to ALL magic except for the spells that are listed? The beastiary says anything with an SR, but Invisibility Purge has no SR, so should it work? On the other hand, I sorta feel like it shouldn't work since the Will-o'-Wisp isn't technically turning invisible, it's just extinguishing its glow, and returning to its natural state. More like un-see-able rather than invisible, like oxygen. Thoughts?

[Jason Nelson]

avgbountyhunter wrote:

Quick question about the Will-o'-Wisps. The Cleric in my group wants to use Purge Invisibility to see the Wisp and I'm not sure if it should work or not. Is the Will-o'-Wisp immune to ALL magic except for the spells that are listed? The beastiary says anything with an SR, but Invisibility Purge has no SR, so should it work? On the other hand, I sorta feel like it shouldn't work since the Will-o'-Wisp isn't technically turning invisible, it's just extinguishing its glow, and returning to its natural state. More like un-see-able rather than invisible, like oxygen. Thoughts?

All invisibility is suppressed, so the WoW will be transparent, but not invisible.

It still has a Stealth modifier of like +25 or something, so it will still be plenty stealthy.

[Spyderz]

I've got a few questions on City issues.

1. Is it just me or are Loyalty rolls not used for much except events or if withdrawing money (which my players are unwilling to do anyhow)

2. Concerning magic item slots, since you can only make 1 sale per month per district...my players have felt that having multiple towns are a requirement. However, they think that once they have multiple districts they should be able to sell things there even if they were made available elsewhere as there's not obvious reason that they couldn't take them there to be sold. It would quickly become common knowledge that things would be available in each town. I've allowed this...but is that what was intended?

3. There's been talk about stagnant items sitting on the list for a long time...but that seems normal. Since my players have 3 districts, they're selling 3 items a turn. The economy rolls are pretty much a non issue...unless an event has caused unrest. Since they have access to 2 moderate items and several minor ones, they always move to sell the 2 moderate and 1 minor..though in a month or two that'll certainly be 3 moderate each month. They don't even care what the minor items available are..because they don't intend to buy any items...they're content to take what treasure they find from adventuring...and what they can make for themselves. Did I miss somewhere that all items have to be sold before they refresh or is there a reason why anyone would bother with minor items once moderate ones are available...especially if they aren't interested or couldn't afford them?

[Firstbourne]

Spyderz wrote:

I've got a few questions on City issues.

1. Is it just me or are Loyalty rolls not used for much except events or if withdrawing money (which my players are unwilling to do anyhow)

2. Concerning magic item slots, since you can only make 1 sale per month per district...my players have felt that having multiple towns are a requirement. However, they think that once they have multiple districts they should be able to sell things there even if they were made available elsewhere as there's not obvious reason that they couldn't take them there to be sold. It would quickly become common knowledge that things would be available in each town. I've allowed this...but is that what was intended?

1 - I agree. My group is in the 2nd book and the only Loyalty issues I have seen have been from events (my players don't withdraw cash).

2 - I believe the intended rules are that magic items must be sold in the city in which they were made (you can't sell a car in Cleveland to a guy in Chicago). I believe the RAW is that if a city has multiple districts, you could make an Econ check for each district. Notice that the magic items are listed on the city / district sheet, NOT the kingdom sheet. That is how I am ruling it for my campaign.

[Spyderz]

My players are hard core against taking cash. Before kingdom building started they were level 3...I proceeded with kingdom building until they made L4...as #32 suggests. Sadly they are way behind in personal resources. I didn't add it all up...but I think that #31 was perhaps a little light in treasure. In any case...I suggested they withdraw a little to help them out...and under no circumstances are they willing to take the unrest. I'm thinking I'll finish out the year since with kingdom building because they started with 1 festival a year purchased...and decided it was going to be the founder's day festival...and I'm going to have some of the citizens reward them with some gear.

[Jason Nelson]

Firstbourne wrote:

Spyderz wrote:

I've got a few questions on City issues.

1. Is it just me or are Loyalty rolls not used for much except events or if withdrawing money (which my players are unwilling to do anyhow)

2. Concerning magic item slots, since you can only make 1 sale per month per district...my players have felt that having multiple towns are a requirement. However, they think that once they have multiple districts they should be able to sell things there even if they were made available elsewhere as there's not obvious reason that they couldn't take them there to be sold. It would quickly become common knowledge that things would be available in each town. I've allowed this...but is that what was intended?

1 - I agree. My group is in the 2nd book and the only Loyalty issues I have seen have been from events (my players don't withdraw cash).

2 - I believe the intended rules are that magic items must be sold in the city in which they were made (you can't sell a car in Cleveland to a guy in Chicago). I believe the RAW is that if a city has multiple districts, you could make an Econ check for each district. Notice that the magic items are listed on the city / district sheet, NOT the kingdom sheet. That is how I am ruling it for my campaign.

By RAW, any items you make ANYWHERE in your kingdom are available for kingdom sell-through ANYWHERE in your kingdom.

Selling items is a kingdom-wide activity.

A. The number of item-producing improvements you have determines how many items you keep in stock.
B. The number of city districts you have determines how many places you can sell stuff.

There is no requirement that A and B are the same place.

If that strains credulity, remember that kingdom turns take an entire MONTH. You could easily find a buyer in one city and either send the item to them or send them to the manufacturer over the course of the month.

[Firstbourne]

Jason Nelson wrote:

Firstbourne wrote:

Spyderz wrote:

I've got a few questions on City issues.

1. Is it just me or are Loyalty rolls not used for much except events or if withdrawing money (which my players are unwilling to do anyhow)

2. Concerning magic item slots, since you can only make 1 sale per month per district...my players have felt that having multiple towns are a requirement. However, they think that once they have multiple districts they should be able to sell things there even if they were made available elsewhere as there's not obvious reason that they couldn't take them there to be sold. It would quickly become common knowledge that things would be available in each town. I've allowed this...but is that what was intended?

1 - I agree. My group is in the 2nd book and the only Loyalty issues I have seen have been from events (my players don't withdraw cash).

2 - I believe the intended rules are that magic items must be sold in the city in which they were made (you can't sell a car in Cleveland to a guy in Chicago). I believe the RAW is that if a city has multiple districts, you could make an Econ check for each district. Notice that the magic items are listed on the city / district sheet, NOT the kingdom sheet. That is how I am ruling it for my campaign.

By RAW, any items you make ANYWHERE in your kingdom are available for kingdom sell-through ANYWHERE in your kingdom.

Selling items is a kingdom-wide activity.

A. The number of item-producing improvements you have determines how many items you keep in stock.
B. The number of city districts you have determines how many places you can sell stuff.

There is no requirement that A and B are the same place.

If that strains credulity, remember that kingdom turns take an entire MONTH. You could easily find a buyer in one city and either send the item to them or send them to the manufacturer over the course of the month.

How would seller in City A know there was a customer who wanted his item in City B? The internet? A phone call?

No disrespect, but the RAW seems flawed, and seems as though it would allow for too many BPs to flood into the city.

I'm still not sure how my city benefits (in BP) from a merchant selling an item. The item belongs to the merchant, and BPs are supposed to be resources such as people, materials, etc.

I would understand if it was owned by the kingdom and the money went directly into the treasury to be used by the kingdom. I go along with it to make the AP function, but I don't understand what it is supposed to represent.

[Jason Nelson]

Firstbourne wrote:

How would seller in City A know there was a customer who wanted his item in City B? The internet? A phone call?

There is a great deal that is handwaved in the kingdom rules. The presumption is that, at some point during the month, the various merchants and crafters and all manner of folk are roaming hither and yon throughout the land. Bob tells Pete that he's looking for Item X. Pete doesn't have one but he tells Chris, who sends him on to Rex, who just came into town from East City. Rex says that Diana over in East City just finished a project and has an opening on her schedule to craft that item and goes back to talk to her. She agrees to take the job for Bob and crafts the item. She then pays Tom to include it in his caravan heading over to West City, where it arrives at the end of the month.

Firstbourne wrote:

No disrespect, but the RAW seems flawed, and seems as though it would allow for too many BPs to flood into the city.

How much is "too much" is entirely a matter of taste. The system can be used for a kingdom that is functionally resource-starved, always just barely making ends meet and having to save up for long periods to build improvements. It can also be built to emulate a kingdom that has a robust economy, where PCs are able to save up quickly, build items in multiple cities, etc.

Which is more fun or better is up to you. What will be too much or too little for one group will be just right for another. I didn't write the kingdom rules, but I believe they are calibrated more towards the "successful kingdom" end of the spectrum, anticipating that people building a kingdom will have more fun if they can expand and grow and build stuff regularly, rather than having to scratch and claw for just a trickle. Though, even with that, I think the first year of any kingdom is going to be a rough patch, especially if they hit any negative mods or events.

If it makes you feel better, the armies in mass combat rules collect consumption every WEEK that they exist, so your PCs are going to be paying out a lot once they decide to start fielding a military force.

Firstbourne wrote:

I'm still not sure how my city benefits (in BP) from a merchant selling an item. The item belongs to the merchant, and BPs are supposed to be resources such as people, materials, etc.

BPs also represent not only material resources but also productive activity. Take the example above. Rex is going back and forth between East City and West City as a go-between. Some of his business exists in between the cracks of the system (i.e., hundreds of penny-ante transactions that don't show up by themselves on any BP ledger sheet), but he and a dozen other merchants just like him are plying the roads and marketplaces of your kingdom working the low-grade item trade. They also are information brokers, making business connections. Think of them as headhunters, making a profession out of connecting potential buyers with potential sellers.

They are spending dough working the inns and markets looking for customers and clients. The inns and markets profit, because they're throwing money around on rounds of drinks and food and rooms for themselves and their guards (essentially, advertising). When they actually *DO* find a customer, they work with individual suppliers to connect them. Then merchants get into the picture to transport the goods. Then they hire guards and buy wagons and horses, and those guards need equipment, and now that those guards have equipment they, after they finish their first contract, can find other work with other merchants.

All of this spawned from that wand of bull's strength you rolled up, to get it from point A to point B, there is a teeming hive of economic activity associated with that transaction and implied transactions just like it... that economic activity moves the gears of your society and builds up BP worth of resources.

Now, you could argue it's just money changing hands, and nothing is really getting BUILT. Well, if you must then presume imports of good and services, new settlers attracted by the vibrant economy, foreign traders bringing in new goods and services to try to get in on the action.

The fact that the magic item transaction system relies on specific, discrete, tangible items is the glaring exception to the otherwise nicely abstracted BP system, because it keeps drawing the eye back to the idea of "BP = GP = specific tangible goods." It's not.

Accept the particular items as representative of the general trade that is happening and the BP produced by their "sale" as more an aggregate "economic stimulus that comes from selling these kinds of items, of which this ONE was a particular example."

Firstbourne wrote:

I would understand if it was owned by the kingdom and the money went directly into the treasury to be used by the kingdom. I go along with it to make the AP function, but I don't understand what it is supposed to represent.

Hopefully this will give you a better idea.

BP =/= GP. You can't store them in a vault. They aren't cash.

BP = the goods, resources, activity, effort, and output of everybody in your kingdom, from Farmer Frank's ant farm in Hex G-8 to Jennifer's Jewels and Luxury Shop in your capital city.

You (the kingdom rulers) are not selling a physical item (the magic item you rolled up) that belongs to someone else (Diana the wizard in the Caster's Tower on Vine and 2nd Avenue) resulting in cash to you (BP).

Instead:

You (the kingdom rulers) are overseeing and managing the economy of your kingdom, including trade in magic items (such as, the magic item you rolled up) that was created by people are a part of your kingdom (Diana), and their economic activity increases the wealth and success of your kingdom and its people as a whole (BP).

Clear as cy

[Firstbourne]

Thank you Jason.

That is why I love you guys and gals at Paizo and will continue to buy and promote your products.

I appreciate the time you took to illustrate that for me.

I have a new understanding of the system now, and it makes more sense.

By the way - Paizo should use this explanation in their Kingdom Building Hardcover when they release it.

[Jason Nelson]

Firstbourne wrote:

Thank you Jason.

That is why I love you guys and gals at Paizo and will continue to buy and promote your products.

I appreciate the time you took to illustrate that for me.

I have a new understanding of the system now, and it makes more sense.

By the way - Paizo should use this explanation in their Kingdom Building Hardcover when they release it.

Happy to help!

[Tomb Guardian]

The Tomb of the Lonely Warrior was my favorite part of the campaign so far (we're still working through it.) The only part I hated was the initial entry into the Tomb as the f-ing Bat Swarms were a pain! I very nearly died to them. I'm pretty sure if I died to a bat swarm I'd be denied entry into the after life! ;)

I loved the little story behind the Lonely Warrior. My character plans on converting the tomb into a full fledged crypt for our PCs at some point. The crypt would also serve for the training of more holy warriors of Pharasma and Abadar.

[stuart haffenden]

Does Tig's rescue grant a permanent loyalty bonus or is it just for that month?

[James Jacobs]

stuart haffenden wrote:

Does Tig's rescue grant a permanent loyalty bonus or is it just for that month?

All bonuses to kingdom stats granted by quests are permanent.

[recursive.faults]

So I'm running this currently and the players are doing pretty well with it. As they get more comfortable with the kingdom rules they are wanting to stretch them a little here and there. Here are some of the questions I'm having to deal with.

First, one player wants to have a background with the Scarzni and build a tavern in the kingdom to serve as his front. He and I agree that the Scarzni will want to take a cut of all proceeds there, but what I'm not sure of is how I should do this mechanically. I'm torn between handwaving a reasonable percentage of profit from the tavern, and having the PC make some kind of check to hide the bad accounting. I'm also not sure if this isn't a good place for faction points to go too. What suggestions do you guys have?

Second, my players went to Candlemere

Encounter Specifics:

and fought all 24 will-o-wisps in one encounter.

That has pushed their level up to 7 quicker than I anticipated, and now they are complaining that they don't have enough treasure to show. My response so far has been that doing things the hard way doesn't mean you get more treasure from spongy balls of air.

Third, one of my players was turned reincarnated into a Troglodyte. I'm thinking about giving one Unrest automatically and then have them do a Diplomacy check during their event phase to keep it from continuing to generate for keeping a "Monster" in nobility.

Basically, what are your thoughts on those things, and what neat things have popped up in your kingdoms?

[wraithstrike]

recursive.faults wrote:

So I'm running this currently and the players are doing pretty well with it. As they get more comfortable with the kingdom rules they are wanting to stretch them a little here and there. Here are some of the questions I'm having to deal with.

First, one player wants to have a background with the Scarzni and build a tavern in the kingdom to serve as his front. He and I agree that the Scarzni will want to take a cut of all proceeds there, but what I'm not sure of is how I should do this mechanically. I'm torn between handwaving a reasonable percentage of profit from the tavern, and having the PC make some kind of check to hide the bad accounting. I'm also not sure if this isn't a good place for faction points to go too. What suggestions do you guys have?

Second, my players went to Candlemere
** spoiler omitted ** That has pushed their level up to 7 quicker than I anticipated, and now they are complaining that they don't have enough treasure to show. My response so far has been that doing things the hard way doesn't mean you get more treasure from spongy balls of air.

Third, one of my players was turned reincarnated into a Troglodyte. I'm thinking about giving one Unrest automatically and then have them do a Diplomacy check during their event phase to keep it from continuing to generate for keeping a "Monster" in nobility.

Basically, what are your thoughts on those things, and what neat things have popped up in your kingdoms?

spoiler related:

How did they take on all of them. My party was almost killed by one. They have a high AC. They only need to make touch attacks, and spells do nothing to them.

Edit: For the building I would have him make profession checks to see how well the tavern is running, and he can take a percentage of that. If he has no ranks in profession(inn keeep/whatever you think would fit) he should hire someone(s).
I like the idea about the unrest for the monster. I might have it go away after a while once the PC's get the kingdom's loyalty high enough. Eventually enough people would accept it if he saved them enough, well maybe not, but it makes sense that they might come around.

[recursive.faults]

Quote:

Edit: For the building I would have him make profession checks to see how well the tavern is running, and he can take a percentage of that. If he has no ranks in profession(inn keeep/whatever you think would fit) he should hire someone(s).

I like the idea about the unrest for the monster. I might have it go away after a while once the PC's get the kingdom's loyalty high enough. Eventually enough people would accept it if he saved them enough, well maybe not, but it makes sense that they might come around.

That is a good idea with the profession checks. I think I'll do that. I had completely forgotten about that as a possibility.

As for the encounter, they had simply seen what they were up against earlier, and came very prepared. Two PCs died, and all the rest were nearly dead when it was all done, but they pulled it off. I'll also admit I fudged the monsters' strategy to give them an edge. I realize it was a mistake now, but I didn't want the TPK they so eagerly sought.

[PJ]

recursive.faults wrote:

Quote:

Edit: For the building I would have him make profession checks to see how well the tavern is running, and he can take a percentage of that. If he has no ranks in profession(inn keeep/whatever you think would fit) he should hire someone(s).

I like the idea about the unrest for the monster. I might have it go away after a while once the PC's get the kingdom's loyalty high enough. Eventually enough people would accept it if he saved them enough, well maybe not, but it makes sense that they might come around.

That is a good idea with the profession checks. I think I'll do that. I had completely forgotten about that as a possibility.

As for the encounter, they had simply seen what they were up against earlier, and came very prepared. Two PCs died, and all the rest were nearly dead when it was all done, but they pulled it off. I'll also admit I fudged the monsters' strategy to give them an edge. I realize it was a mistake now, but I didn't want the TPK they so eagerly sought.

Did anyone expand on the Gyronna cultists? What happened to the babies that they swapped? Where did they go? Are they really changeling babies like from Eberron? Thanks all my group really love this path so far.

s

[Neil Spicer]

Reposted from the "Blood for Blood" forum:
...the Gyronna cultists do make another appearance in the Kingmaker AP. Basically...

Spoiler:

...there are two more priestesses of Gyronna who serve as advisors/mentors/allies to the big, bad, barbarian warlord, Armag (i.e., the chief bad-guy villain in "Blood for Blood"). They stole him away as a baby from his barbarian tribe and then raised him on their own, filling his head full of grandiose visions. They told him he was the reincarnated spirit of the original Armag, a barbarian warlord from many years ago, who led a horde of warriors on a rampage across Numeria, Brevoy, and into Iobaria.

That said, you don't really gain any further insight into what Gyronna's cultists do with each child. Just an example of what they did with Armag. They're not changeling babies from Eberron, though. So, sorry. No dice on that one. Followers of Gyronna are basically very nasty, vengeful, temperamental people. They enjoy sowing mischief and chaos. And, stealing away a child to then purposefully shape its life so it will become a potent force for chaos and vengeance that they can direct is something I wanted to highlight with Armag's story.

So...I hope that helps,
--Neil

[Grendel Todd]

I have a slightly different trouble with the Gyrrona cultists, mainly being that I have a PC who has decided she is one :)

She is convinced her Witch Patron is Gyrrona herself, and is the main reason for the kingdom having a legal tradition of religious tolerance. She also managed to persuade a fallen female paladin to join her (eventually causing said fallen Paladin to become an Antipaladin of the hag goddess).

I'm getting to spring the event with ACTUAL Gyrrona cultists this next week, adding in the fun of the Duke having just had his first-born son having been delivered by their high priestess, leading to the possibility his heir may be a changeling, and putting our our Gyrrona-worshipper's loyalties to the test.

Knowing how that PC plays, I may end up with a High Priestess of Gyrrona joining Court...

[recursive.faults]

Quote:

I have a slightly different trouble with the Gyrrona cultists, mainly being that I have a PC who has decided she is one :)

Sounds like quite the potential for fun there. If I were running the game I would alter the event a little to make the cultists more of a problem. That way, no matter how the PCs resolve the event the spotlight will wind up back on your cultist and may have to seriously reconsider where their allegiances lie.

Or you could have her become contacted by the cult leader and join in and get caught red handed.

I'd say that if the PCs try to bring her in as an official, have a trial where she is proven innocent first or give the kingdom unrest because the populous is upset that known evil baby-snatchers are now in the government.

[Grendel Todd]

recursive.faults wrote:

Quote:

I have a slightly different trouble with the Gyrrona cultists, mainly being that I have a PC who has decided she is one :)

Sounds like quite the potential for fun there. If I were running the game I would alter the event a little to make the cultists more of a problem. That way, no matter how the PCs resolve the event the spotlight will wind up back on your cultist and may have to seriously reconsider where their allegiances lie.

Or you could have her become contacted by the cult leader and join in and get caught red handed.

I'd say that if the PCs try to bring her in as an official, have a trial where she is proven innocent first or give the kingdom unrest because the populous is upset that known evil baby-snatchers are now in the government.

Here's where it gets tricky (fun, but tricky). Obstensively all religions are equal under the law, yet religious zealotry is not tolerated, according to the Duke. So just BEING a Gyronna worshiper is technically fine, but baby-snatching and other proper forms of hag-goddess worship is not. If the cult (with or without the PC) play it quiet & clever, they're fine as long as they don't get caught - that being said, I think I may apply a small amount of unrest (or the potential through loyalty checks) each month over growing public concern, which kicks into a "Scandal" event if any actual criminal activities actually come out in the public eye.

And yes - where one's loyalty lies seems to be a major undercurrent in the game, and a much deeper aspect for party rp than alignment (PCs alignment range is currently NE, LE, CG & LG, while the kingdom itself is LN).

[PJ]

NSpicer wrote:

Reposted from the "Blood for Blood" forum:

...the Gyronna cultists do make another appearance in the Kingmaker AP. Basically...

** spoiler omitted **

So...I hope that helps,
--Neil

I appreciate in Neil. So were 'they' just saying that the babies were still born and stealing em huh?

thnx,
PJ

[Neil Spicer]

PJ wrote:

So were 'they' just saying that the babies were still born and stealing em huh?

Not always. In the case of the Gyronna priestesses appearing in "Blood for Blood":

Spoiler:

...I operated under the theory that sometimes they would just silently sneak in and flat out abduct a child to raise as their own, too. That was my backstory for where Armag (the younger) came from...