I know you need a free hand for Lay on Hands, but I'm pretty sure you don't need one for spell casting. Heck there's a picture of Seltiel firing a ray from the hand with his sword in it and a rod in his other hand.
I think it looks like a solid build.
You need at least one hand free to use lay on hands or cast a spell with somatic components. With a heavy shield, its too heavy to use that hand for anything else, but a light shield is light enough to hold an item in the hand although you can't wield weapons with it.
Now does that mean you can use lay on hands with the shield hand? I dunno, maybe, maybe not. You can't use it to cast spells with that hand though (you specifically can do this with a buckler, but since the other shields don't say so then it seems that you can't...plus you lose the AC bonus to the buckler for a round). I'd be inclined to think you could use lay on hands with a light shield hand...if you can hold something, you can just as easily touch something with it.
And light shield will definitely be preferable to a heavy shield in your build. Even with Shield Master, using a heavy shield in the off hand will put a -4 penalty to your primary attacks instead of a -2. The tradeoff in extra damage in your offhand won't be worth it.
As for spellcasting, you'll have to figure out something, either to drop the weapon or shield and then cast the spell, or what not. (usual way is to drop the weapon as a free action, cast the spell as a standard, and pick up the weapon as a move, but that provokes an AoO). But really, how often do you plan to cast a spell in combat? Thats not what paladins do. Plus you're concentration check will be crap.
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Or you could use Quick draw. Cast as a standard and draw for free to be ready to go next round.
I don't know that I would worry about Wis either. Casting is now in Cha so the only advantage Wis gives is for Wil saves and wis based skills which aren't really the Paladins thing. Drop the Wis down a couple and capitalize the points somewhere else.
I don't know that I would worry about Wis either. Casting is now in Cha so the only advantage Wis gives is for Wil saves and wis based skills which aren't really the Paladins thing. Drop the Wis down a couple and capitalize the points somewhere else.
+1, Will save will go up by +3 at 2nd when you get your Divine Grace.
Though I'm not sure I would go below a 10 if I had 20-25 build points kicking around, not really necessary.
I'll also add that as long as your with a party, Perception isn't really a concern for you, nor is it a class skill making it somewhat tedious with a Ranger or Rogue about... and a 7 INT worth of skill points.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Even if the DM was pretty harsh on the free hand requirement for LoH, I doubt it will ever be a serious constraint. There are 3 uses:
1) Heal self as a swift action
2) Healing a 30' burst
These are the better uses of LoH. Neither of these require a touch, unless the DM requires you to touch yourself which would be exceedingly odd.
3) Healing one person
Doing this out of combat is not very effective, if anyone else is a decent healer. Doing this in combat is a bad plan. It eats an action, and it isn't enough healing to turn the tide of a combat. It is really only useful to clear a condition with Mercy. I would guess this use doesn't come up much.
Other suggestions:
Get the Dex with an Ioun stone. You don't want to eat the cost of the Dex on a Dex/Str belt, nor is it the best use of your ability scores as you level up.
Strength is probably better than Cha. Strength always adds to both attack and damage. Cha sometimes adds to damage and AC, and always adds to saves. You need all the bonuses to hit that you can get, and Str is the reliable way to get there.
On a much less significant level, Int > Wisdom. You have a couple skills that key off wisdom and it affects your will save. But, Will is a strong save and over time you get immunities to most of the nasty things Will saves prevent. Int gives you skills, and skills are nice to have.
Improved Crit is a good feat, a great feat if you have a scimitar or Falchion.
Look into the erratta/board interpretation of Shield Master.
I like Shield Slam, it's a nice tripping feat. You just aim the weakling toward an adjacent wall and...boom free trip. The actual Bull Rush isn't as good. Unless you can reliably get your allies into position to make AoOs, I would spend my feats differently. You want full attacks (if possible with the effective +4 t hit a prone opponent). Flinging people across the room doesn't facilitate that.
I'm never a fan of dumping both Int and Wis down into the -2 penalty area.
Even with Divine Grace and a good will progression taking a -2 to will save is asking for trouble. A -2 to perception and sense motive isn't exactly fun either.
A human paladin can afford to dump int because he has the option of getting extra skill ranks from racial abilities and possibly favored class (although most Paladins will take the HP). I personally dislike playing borderline retarded characters but it's a mechanically smart move on 2 Skillpoint classes.
Unless your game is geared around Diplomancy the 18 Charisma is pretty much over kill and is a major point sink. A 14 + 2 Racial is way cheaper and virtually as effective.
I'm fairly new to DPR calculations, but what I have worked out tells me that Power attack is bad for this build. Double slice works out at a higher DPR when shield bashing.
I agree with the above posters, light shield is the way to go with this build. Swift action heals and -2 instead of -4 to on-hand attacks is better than +1 AC.
I also think you should have a higher starting Str rather than Cha. Cha will effectively give +1 to attacks on a smite, and +1 to saves, Str is +1 attack and damage on all attacks. Both decent choices, but you're going to spend more time not smiting than smiting.
I'm playing a very similar character starting in a few weeks, i'm going to put my level 8 stat into Dex to grab improved TWF at level 9 so i'll have a potential 5 smite hits per round at level 11 (6 with haste).
I also don't fancy the Bull Rush feats so will probably take Weapon focus or Extra LoH depending how much i'm using it.
Other suggestions:
Get the Dex with an Ioun stone. You don't want to eat the cost of the Dex on a Dex/Str belt, nor is it the best use of your ability scores as you level up.
Is this possible? My DM told me that you need an inherent stat score to qualify for feat prerequisites.
Good advice on STR instead of CHA.
I'm also strongly leaning towards PA vs the double-slice TWR route. I'm not sure I want to pour all my attribute gains into Dex, and PA seems to deliver more damage.
I'm also curious how keen from divine bond stacks with improved critical?
I think thats a good decision. Really you just don't have the feats and ability points available to a be a super TWFing machine like a shield fighter could. You are instead using the shield for the extra tactical abilities from Greater Bull Rush; aside from the AC bonus thats the big benefit to using the shield for you.
Sure, the extra damage doesn't hurt, but you just aren't going to be able to take that 2nd and 3rd attack and hit as often or as hard as a fighter can. And getting your dex up to a decent level for it won't give much benefit (you're armor will limit your dex to AC anyways; a fighter can usually take full benefit of it). And a fighter doesn't need the points in Cha like the Pally does.
Also, I think its a wash as far as whether you should boost Str or Cha. The Cha does more than just better saves (which is pretty big), it gives extra lay on hands as well, which can increase your staying power to deliver more attacks. And it boosts your spellcasting and spells per day. Granted thats not usually a big deal for a paladin, but an extra 4th lvl spell can be pretty significant.
I think you're safe on dumping Int. The general consensus is that the human still gets his extra skill point even with a super poor Int. So whether your Int is 7 or 9 won't affect your skill points at all. And you can always take the extra sp from favored class, so you could conceivably get 3 sps a level if you want them. Just depends on what all you want to be able to do. I probably wouldn't take Wis too low though; penalties to Perception and Sense Motive suck.
Keen won't stack with Improved Crit, whether its from Divine Bond or not. As a paladin though, something to consider is the Bless Weapon spell. A weapon under the effects of this spell automatically confirms critical threatss against evil creatures. This effect of the spell won't work with a keen weapon, but will work with Improved Crit. Not saying you should take Improved Crit, but its something to think about if this is what you are looking at doing.
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With a full paladin going with a very high dex is not really going to help you much.
With a 20 point buy
Str 18 ( +2 Human )
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 14
With a 25 Point buy
Str 18 (+2 Human )
Dex 10
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 14
The Reason for the lower Dex is you can cap your max dex in heavy armor with using items. To cove the one to three point mod you can use with heavy plate. Picking con over cha is more a point of preference exta hp over saves. All level points in to Str. You will need a high Str at high level because of damage reduction and to hit. Yes your smites will by pass DR but you don't have enough for every monster you encounter in a day. At high level almost every thing you come across with have DR 5 or better.
Feats
H Toughness
1 Exotic Weapon Bastard Sword
3 Power Attack
5 Cleave
7 Vital Strike
9 Improved Critical Bastard Sword
11 Critical Focus
13 Bleeding Critical
15 Great Cleave
17 Improved Vital Strike
19 Greater Vital Strike
The reason for the Bastard Sword is so that you start using a shield. If you feel you need the damage you can drop the shield as a move action and go two handed for the extra damage.
Skills this is probably the most over looked by some players. They are as important as feats or more so depending on what skills you take. Max out your UMD. This is by far the most over powered skill in the game. With a maxed UMD at around level 10 you can use raise dead scrolls with little chance of failing. Second max Acrobatics. There are way to many reason why its a good idea to max that skill. And you have one more skill you can max out.
I like builds that can do multiple rolls.
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Is there a character story or RP reason for using a shield? You can get pretty good DPR out of two-handed weapons and not needing more than a 12 in Dex will get you better Strength. Plus, you're not shoveling feats into two-weapon fighting feats and shield feats. With swift action self healing, Paladins don't really need much AC. You get ouchies, you get bandaids.
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The thinking on using the shield was to get an extra attack when smiting, and I'm just interested in trying the shield-as-weapon route for something interesting.
Gotcha. Having an extra attack is certainly beneficial when you're smiting but IIRC from the DPR Olympics, generally your DPR is higher with a 2hander. Toss up between better damage in most fights and more feats freed up and wildly better damage in a few fights and better AC I guess. I don't think there's a right answer on this just a preference.
The scimitar at 11th level doesn't look too impressive, but with power attack + divine bond + 15-20 threat for crit, I think it'll do OK. Again, not as good as a straight fighter, but a paladin's never going to keep up with a straight fighter.
...I think the bastard sword build posted above is pretty good too. I'll load it in the spreadsheet and see how it compares.
You definitely want the high crit range when possible. You multiply Smite damage on a crit so doubling your damage becomes even sweeter. I'm meh on a bastard sword build. I think it a great thing to allow a Fighter that kind of flexibility because of the sh*t ton of feats they get. If you want to shield bash, though, I don't think you can readily afford the feat. If you're not going to bash I say grab a falchion and just go to town with it. Again, Lay on Bandaids is going to keep you up and in the fight so AC ought not be a primary concern. You'll have 8 of them, enough to top yourself off in probably every or almost every fight you get into in a day.
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You definitely want the high crit range when possible. You multiply Smite damage on a crit so doubling your damage becomes even sweeter.I know flaming doesn't multiply with crit, but does holy?
Also, you can only divind bond disruption on a bludgeoning weapon, correct? Since the difference between a shield vs. spiked shield is 1d3 vs 1d4, I wonder if it's better to carry a regular light shield for the option to divind bond disruption on it when fighting undead?
Only those magic qualities that specify the effect of a crit have any additional effect. Like the Bursting ones.
Disruption is a trick. The DC of the will save is pitifully low and never scales. Against a CR7 or 8 undead you're talking about +9 will. Not gonna work 75% of the time.
Better question is, what's the benefit of choosing a shield/shield spike for your divine bond instead of your weapon?
The thinking on using the shield was to get an extra attack when smiting, and I'm just interested in trying the shield-as-weapon route for something interesting.
The scimitar at 11th level doesn't look too impressive, but with power attack + divine bond + 15-20 threat for crit, I think it'll do OK. Again, not as good as a straight fighter, but a paladin's never going to keep up with a straight fighter.
And for undead that you can't crit, the smite damage is pretty huge.
I think the bastard sword build posted above is pretty good too. I'll load it in the spreadsheet and see how it compares.
Here's the full character up to level 11, and like I said, I'll compare with the bastard sword build above.
(assumes no magic weapons, armor, or buffs, so this is a worst-case)
Male human Paladin 11
LG Medium humanoid
I think it looks good.
I'd try to pick up Greater Bull Rush as soon as possible. Personally I'd take that before Imp Crit, since you can always get a keen weapon or use the divine bond to keen it or have a partymember cast keen edge on it, whereas theres no way to replicate the awesomeness that is Greater Bull Rush without taking the feat.
I'd agree with Yeungling that EWP (Bastard Sword) isn't worth it for a paladin. You can do the same thing with a longsword for free, you'll just average 1pt less of damage per hit. I don't think 1pt of damage is worth a feat in a feat hungry build.
Oh don't forget to take his spellcasting into consideration.
It looks like you have chosen mercies that you couldn't actually choose. You have both cursed and diseased but you could only have one at 11th lvl. Personally I'd take sickened and nauseated, since nausea is a condition that can be tough to remove, and you would be able to remove it with ease even off of yourself.
Given the types of builds you are looking at, I don't think you're going to find any clear cut right or wrong answers. None of these builds will suck and each of them will be able to do what they need to in slightly different ways. So it really will come down to your preference as to how you want your paladin to be.
With a full paladin going with a very high dex is not really going to help you much.
what if you wanted an Erastil archer paladin?
