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So I've finally had a chance to sit down and read through Seekers of Secrets and as much as I love a lot of it (especially the breakdown nation by nation of Pathfinder activities). The concept of "Pathfinder Bootcamp" akin to the military or Jordan's Aes Sedai really bugs me.
It just seems to go totally against the flavor of the Pathfinders and doesn't seem to mesh with what's been established by Crypt of the Everflame or even 3.5 era books. I would think (and in my games this is how it will be) that the method of joining would be more akin to say, the Elks. You are sponsored by an existing member (someone who either accompanied you on a treasure hunt or heard about a find of yours) and then perhaps given an initiation test by the local Venture Captain. Even in the Field Commissions section it suggests that they send people back to Absalom to spend some time as an initiate even if it isn't as much as someone who goes there on their own.
Just didn't click right with me and I wanted to put that out there.
Actually, I raised the same concerns back when the book came out. My thread was Here, and I had my problems somewhat allayed, but I'm going to have to scale back the organization somewhat in my own games. Anyway, hope it helps.
I was really surprised at the "boot camp" concept as well. It wasn't how I had depicted them from what I had read earlier.
I'm actually kind of surprised to see so many people being surprised by this or reacting negatively to it. The "field promotion" method really explains a lot of PC Pathfinder characters, and a character that wants to start out as a Pathfinder and wants to have gone through the training really only needs to make sure they max out their starting age.
Given that the material, from the start has pointed out how particular the Society is about what gets into official volumes and about who has access to the volumes, I wasn't really expecting them to allow people to just wander in off the streets and call themselves Pathfinders and write some books for them to publish.
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Replying to something Sean said in the other thread on this subject:
See, considering that lodges are independently run, it's entirely possible for some semi-rogue venture-captain to start training people the way HE thinks they should be trained, and all of a sudden he's cranking out "fully-trained" Pathfinders, or giving field commissions to anyone he thinks is appropriate. I can see Absalom HQ having a problem with that, and insisting that anyone who's going to be called a Pathfinder go through their screening process and testing before actually getting the name.
After all, your local Army recruiter may have the authority to recruit you, but he doesn't have the authority to put you through a local "boot camp" and then declare you a fully-trained member of the Army.
There is a big difference between an army, and the Pathfinders. Armies are about structure, following orders, doing what you're told even if you don't agree etc. Members of the army are always working together in hierarchial units.
Pathfinders are expected to be able to operate independently, they have two ranks (Venture Captain and not Venture Captain) can tell their superiors to "sod off" if they don't want to go on a mission, and can use any damn methods they want to carry out their tasks (Oh this door requires a virgin sacrifice to open it? Let's run out to the nearest village and get us a virgin then. Pick the nerdy guy not the hot chick just to be sure).
A Pathfinder should sponsor a new member, Venture Captain sets him on an initiation task, sends the report from the task to the Decemvirate and the Decemvirate confirms. And an initiation would be essentially a Pathfinder Society type adventure.
All imho.
KnightErrantJr is right on the money, in my opinion. The intention with the field promotion sidebar was to allow people to play the Pathfinders either way - joining up on the fly via their great accomplishments or going through more formal channels. The latter makes more sense to me, as they're a powerful organization with ties throughout the world, not just a loose consortium of whatever adventurers want to lay claim to their name. But again, the Pathfinders should be whatever you need them to be in your game, and with so many conflicting personalities and hardcore individualists, there's no question that various Pathfinders (and venture-captains, and maybe even Decemvirate members) have different views on what the organization should be. Heck, the second Pathfinder Lodge to be established almost split the Society in two, and resulted in the creation of the venture-captain rank. The captains in your favorite region can be anti-establishment zealots who pass out commissions like candy as a thumb in the eye of their superiors, should you so desire, and the new Pathfinder's Journal deals precisely with the kind of self-aggrandized hero who doesn't want to wait for a commission to start being a Pathfinder....
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Yeah, that bit threw me off as well. "I'm gonna train for three years for the exciting priviledge to go adventuring and hand over the best swag to my bosses? Oh, hey, I've got an idea, I'm gonna start adventuring three years earlier, and *keep* the best swag for myself!"
Field-commision, all the way.
CEO
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There isn't also a Paizo boot camp where writers who don't meet Paizo's standards are trained to become better freelancers by the Paizo editorial staff. Those who aren't ready are just passed over in favor of those who are.
I totally wish we had the time, money, resources, and people to pull that off. If I could run a Paizo freelancer bootcamp to train people to be great RPG designers, that would be awesome. But Paizo doesn't have any of the 4 things listed above in any great quantity, so the best we can do is RPG Superstar (which is a bit like a freelancer bootcamp) and seminars at Paizocon and GenCon.
-Lisa
...the best we can do is RPG Superstar (which is a bit like a freelancer bootcamp) and seminars at Paizocon and GenCon.
I went to...or through...all of those "boot camp" elements. And, frankly, I'm glad I did. They really, really help. And even then, the education continues as a freelancer gains experience. To me, that's pretty closely in line with how I'd imagine the Pathfinder Society to go. It's an organization. So there's got to be some kind of implied structure to it. Hence, I'm okay with the "boot camp" concept to become a Pathfinder.
As others have pointed out, there's still an alternative method for those who "skirt the rules" and skip "boot camp" altogether via the field commissions. I'm glad that option got included, too. But I'm also appreciative that the Pathfinder Society has a process for vetting and training their explorers. You don't just want to let anyone head out and claim affiliation with you...or send ill-prepared or ill-suited "adventurers" to their untimely deaths. Deaths that you'll have to take responsibility for...and that might cost you the opportunity to discover the next great thing for the Pathfinder Chronicles.
But that's just my two-cents,
--Neil
There isn't also a Paizo boot camp where writers who don't meet Paizo's standards are trained to become better freelancers by the Paizo editorial staff. Those who aren't ready are just passed over in favor of those who are.I totally wish we had the time, money, resources, and people to pull that off.
-Lisa
You just want to force some freelancers to crawl through cold mud and stuff like that, while you stand by and shout at them. Come on, admit it! ;-)
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Maybe this is where I'm inappropriately mixing my Pathfinder Society experiences with my concept of the core rules campaign setting. I've played about 30 PFS mods now, with tables ranging from 4-8, say 6 average, a lot of the same co-players but not always, meaning I've probably adventured with 60 different fellow Pathfinders. And as far as I know, none of them have gone through Pathfinder training in Absalom. They've all got great backstories and different explanations of how they came to be Pathfinders, but everyone I've delved with seems to be a field promotion. In my experience, it's just more common.
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Sounds like I may skip this book. It made sense to me that the Pathfinders were like a National Geographic organization. They don't accept just ANYBODY to the field, but there isn't a bootcamp either. In fact why would ANY country allow Pathfinders in? Your talking about allowing some powerful Quasi-military commandoes into your country with no restrictions? I don't think so.
No, sounds like a flop to me. I think I'll pass on that book. Thanks for the heads up
You'll be passing up a lot of really cool stuff, especially considering the term "boot camp" is kind of being loosely thrown around. Its more like a multi-year "Indiana Jones" camp than a military training course. In fact, this is why I kind of get perplexed when people "shorthand" concepts too much.
In fact, if you read through that section, it with the exception of having "classes" full of prospective Pathfinders, its much more like a group of apprentices being put through their paces to prove that they will be willing to do what they are told by the Venture-Captains.
Sounds like I may skip this book. It made sense to me that the Pathfinders were like a National Geographic organization. They don't accept just ANYBODY to the field, but there isn't a bootcamp either. In fact why would ANY country allow Pathfinders in? Your talking about allowing some powerful Quasi-military commandoes into your country with no restrictions? I don't think so.
No, sounds like a flop to me. I think I'll pass on that book. Thanks for the heads up
You should seriously give this book a chance. The boot camp idea was the only thing that irked me with the book, the rest is pure gold.
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The bit about the pre-existing cyclopes civilization seemed a bit out of nowhere to me. Have we heard previously of this? (And by 'we,' I mean, 'people not me.')
On the other hand, I think it's comedy gold (to a certain rarified set) that one can legitimately refer to an ancient ruin as 'cyclopean' on Golarion.
If only there was a race called the Squam, so we could get away with calling their relics squamous...
If only there was a race called the Squam, so we could get away with calling their relics squamous...
Just carve some scales into it. And with a few bas-relief wrinkles, you can get away with rugose!
..."Xymolosely polydactile" would require a bit more thought, though. :)
The bit about the pre-existing cyclopes civilization seemed a bit out of nowhere to me. Have we heard previously of this?
Yes. Look into the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting and read up on the sections detailing Casmaron and Iobaria. Also, if you consult the Pathfinder Bestiary, the ancient cyclopean civilization gets examined a bit there, too.
The bit about the pre-existing cyclopes civilization seemed a bit out of nowhere to me. Have we heard previously of this?Yes. Look into the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting and read up on the sections detailing Casmaron and Iobaria. Also, if you consult the Pathfinder Bestiary, the ancient cyclopean civilization gets examined a bit there, too.
Ditto this, central Casmaron is littered by various ruins, as far as I remember.
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You should seriously give this book a chance. The boot camp idea was the only thing that irked me with the book, the rest is pure gold.
Ditto. The training part is really a small part of the book. Otherwise it has some interesting feats and Pathfinder-related prestige classes, new equipment, a very thorough write-up on ioun stones, and insight into many parts of Golarion via the lodges-of-the-world section. Maybe not a 5 in my book, but at least a 4.
I don't understand the problem with the idea of applicants to become Pathfinders to have to go and attend a school of sorts at the Absalom lodge that spends three years honing applicants abilities to analyze situations and be more informed adventurers, on top of making sure the people they are bring into the fold can remain loyal to both the Society and the Decimverate.
Really only a small portion of the whole program is actual boot camp like regimens, unless you were a pathfinder who wants to focus solely on physical combat. From what I gathered the programs for each individual Pathfinder is tailored to build on their style of adventuring, so to speak.
In my game I plan on the PCs around level 2 or 3 to aid a high ranking Pathfinder in the field, and in return he will give them a strong recommendation to the Pathfinder Society, and take them to Absolom. I won't really make many game sessions or encounters focussed on this time, since it will be unlikely the entire group will be together in force before the final test. I will most likely narrate what passes to each player, and maybe even have a few small individual encounters that won't bore the rest of the party.
I intend on the 3-year schooling for the PCs be meant to make them much more talented and skillful adventurers, so I will be giving all of them, upon completion, a bonus feat that boosts skills, like Athletic, Deceptive, etc, etc. And then upon the completion of their exit test to go from Initiate to full fledged Pathfinders, they might even get another level.
When you join the Pathfinders you are joining a world-spanning club. They provide for you as long as you continue to remain loyal, and when you get in trouble you have a powerful ally to get you out. Therefore for people to become members off the street should be very, very rare. That's why when players go through the APs and run up against an NPC Pathfinder, a sort of reverence should go across the faces of the PCs (Like they did at my table when they met Ailan in CoT,) for here must be a very powerful adventurer indeed to be counted among such a group.
Maybe this is where I'm inappropriately mixing my Pathfinder Society experiences with my concept of the core rules campaign setting. I've played about 30 PFS mods now, with tables ranging from 4-8, say 6 average, a lot of the same co-players but not always, meaning I've probably adventured with 60 different fellow Pathfinders. And as far as I know, none of them have gone through Pathfinder training in Absalom. They've all got great backstories and different explanations of how they came to be Pathfinders, but everyone I've delved with seems to be a field promotion. In my experience, it's just more common.
Recall that this book is fairly new, hence people with established PFS characters aren't going to match info presented in it exactly. Also, it's been emphasized before, but while org play scenarios fit as well as possible into the canon of the world, we have zero control over players or GMs (nor would we seek to have any)... we just set the stage.
I don't understand the problem with the idea of applicants to become Pathfinders to have to go and attend a school of sorts at the Absalom lodge that spends three years honing applicants abilities to analyze situations and be more informed adventurers, on top of making sure the people they are bring into the fold can remain loyal to both the Society and the Decimverate.
Yeah, I really don't get the problem with the idea, either. There are wizards' academies, does that bug people?
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In my game I plan on the PCs around level 2 or 3 to aid a high ranking Pathfinder in the field, and in return he will give them a strong recommendation to the Pathfinder Society, and take them to Absolom. I won't really make many game sessions or encounters focussed on this time, since it will be unlikely the entire group will be together in force before the final test. I will most likely narrate what passes to each player, and maybe even have a few small individual encounters that won't bore the rest of the party.
I intend on the 3-year schooling for the PCs be meant to make them much more talented and skillful adventurers, so I will be giving all of them, upon completion, a bonus feat that boosts skills, like Athletic, Deceptive, etc, etc. And then upon the completion of their exit test to go from Initiate to full fledged Pathfinders, they might even get another level.
This makes more sense to me, where going through the Pathfinder training program actually explains how players advance in levels and gain now skills. Pathfinder as prestige class. So far I've been thinking of starting level 1 as a Pathfinder, where the whole training program would have happened prior to level 1, Pathfinder as background. That didn't really make sense, too much training to come out with measly level 1 skills. But if you look at all the low level stuff (including Pathfinder Society mods) as part of the interview process rather than you're an actual member already, then it makes more sense. At some point later, you actually curry enough favor with a venture captain that he/she sends you to Absalom for initiation and training. That might actually make a fun adventure - Training in Absalom.
On wizard academies, I've actually had the same issue. Who the heck graduates from a wizarding academy able to cast one or two 1st-level spells a day? I've always assumed most wizards were a) self trained, b) drop-outs who then self train, or c) enrolled in school and adventuring during vacations. I know Harry Potter isn't the definitive D&D wizard, but jeez, 7 years of school and he could do some pretty high level stuff by the time he graduated (er, or didn't graduate). Attending wizarding academies seems to be the fluff between adventures that everyone mostly forgets about.
But I do like the idea of Pathfinder training happening at higher level much better than looking at it a part of a character's background. Thanks DeathCon.
Who the heck graduates from a wizarding academy able to cast one or two 1st-level spells a day?
... and the ability to cast three cantrips an UNLIMITED number of times per day. That's nothing to sniff at. After all, nobody on Earth can do that....
Who the heck graduates from a wizarding academy able to cast one or two 1st-level spells a day?... and the ability to cast three cantrips an UNLIMITED number of times per day. That's nothing to sniff at. After all, nobody on Earth can do that....
Plus, didn't the Academae graduate get a little some extra? I have that campaign's materials packed away, right now, but my memory says yes.
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On the other hand, I think it's comedy gold (to a certain rarified set) that one can legitimately refer to an ancient ruin as 'cyclopean' on Golarion.
It always makes me wonder, when it turns out that the builders of those cyclopean ruins out in the jungle / desert / hills were actually Cyclops’ … did the author actually know what ‘cyclopean’ means in this context?
It always makes me wonder, when it turns out that the builders of those cyclopean ruins out in the jungle / desert / hills were actually Cyclops’ … did the author actually know what ‘cyclopean’ means in this context?
On the other hand, I think it's comedy gold (to a certain rarified set) that one can legitimately refer to an ancient ruin as 'cyclopean' on Golarion.
He's actually a little too dead to ask him.
But I do like the idea of Pathfinder training happening at higher level much better than looking at it a part of a character's background. Thanks DeathCon.
Not a problem. I've never seen an NPC pathfinder lower than 3rd level, the exception being player characters in the low tier pathfinder society scenarios.
Maybe my concept of boot camp is different then some of the posters here (and keep in mind I actually went through US Army boot camp in '97) but nothing I read in the Seekers of Secrets book indicates anything at all like a boot camp. Yeah, they get their possessions taken away for a while and live in a dorm and study, but that just sounds like an exclusive private college training explorers to be the best explorers possible to me. I've always thought of the Pathfinder school for admission at the Grand Lodge to be something more akin to the maesters in the George RR Martin A Song of Ice and Fire books: they need to be trained to operate as effective independent thinkers because once they're set loose in the world, they'll have to do that on a daily basis. And where's the benefit in sending out a bunch of untrained explorers operating as members of your organization who all get killed on their first romp through a trap-laden dungeon? To me, Pathfinders are elite explorers and delvers, which is why field commissions as a Pathfinder are completely possible when they find anyone else who already seems to grasp the basic survival needs of every Pathfinder.
As for the Pathfinder Society OP campaign, this book was written well after we established that campaign. Yes, more people in that campaign will be field commissions and yes it's possible that future characters may wish to have been trained at the Grand Lodge, but that's really outside the scope of the campaign--have whatever background you want, really.
I'm also surprised that folks are surprised that the Pathfinders are a large organization. Our setting is the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting--heck, Pathfinder is our most important brand name. Why wouldn't the Pathfinders be a large, important part of the world? They're not military large either--it's not like they could field an army and conquer a country. But they are everywhere, and they are constantly seeking new knowledge, new locations, and new items of power. And, to counter a comment I read above, they're not sending *all* of it back to HQ--just the dangerous or really important stuff. They are, after all, at their heart adventurers--and adventurers need "stuff" to keep getting more "stuff."
Yeah, they get their possessions taken away for a while and live in a dorm and study, but that just sounds like an exclusive private college training explorers to be the best explorers possible to me.
There certainly were monasteries in the pre-modern world that did this as well.
It always makes me wonder, when it turns out that the builders of those cyclopean ruins out in the jungle / desert / hills were actually Cyclops’ … did the author actually know what ‘cyclopean’ means in this context?
Maybe this?
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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And where's the benefit in sending out a bunch of untrained explorers operating as members of your organization who all get killed on their first romp through a trap-laden dungeon? To me, Pathfinders are elite explorers and delvers, which is why field commissions as a Pathfinder are completely possible when they find anyone else who already seems to grasp the basic survival needs of every Pathfinder.
Josh, I can't speak for anyone else here, but my concerns with the required years of training is that there's already a mechanism for the very rare field promotion: the Prestige Class. that is, the entry requirements would keep the adventuring tyro out, and provide organizational support, or class benefits, for the Pathfinder PC.
Until I had read "Seekers," I figured that this was the description of the typical member of the Pathfinder Society. The book purports, though, that the vast majority of Pathfinders have this Absalom training. And how do we reflect that in the game?
I start a Pathfinder Society Organized Play character and claim that he's a graduate of the Pathfinder training program, as the preponderance of Pathfinders are. So, what has all that training provided him? Nothing. He's just a first-level character. It would seem that the Society does send out a bunch of untrained explorers, or at least no better trained than the characters who head out for their initiation into adulthood in "Crypt of the Everflame".
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I start a Pathfinder Society Organized Play character and claim that he's a graduate of the Pathfinder training program, as the preponderance of Pathfinders are. So, what has all that training provided him? Nothing. He's just a first-level character.
well... he has a level of a PC class instead of being an expert 1
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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well... he has a level of a PC class instead of being an expert 1.
As do all the starting PCs who haven't had three years of specific training in adventuring. Compare them to the characters starting "Bastards of Erebus" or "Crypt of the Everflame".
The solution I would have proposed:
1) Make field promotions the rule, not the rare exception.
2) Create a training facility in Absalom that is run on behalf of prospective Pathfinders, but not by the Society itself. (In the same way that the College Board doesn't run all the "SAT-prep" classes.) Somebody recognized an economic want --Pathfinder wannabes looking for coaching-- and founded a company to meet it.
By the way, what are the entry requirements for the Aspis Consortium?
To be certain, once you start mixing crunch and flavor so intimately you end up with with conflicts that might break someone's verisimilitude about the OP system.
In nearly every roleplaying game of which I've been a part, there necessarily always comes the point where you have to shrug and say, "it's like *this* in the world, but like *this other thing* in actual game rules."
So, yes, the Society has a training system and you might say, "My new 1st level fighter trained at the Grand Lodge for three years" and you'd need to say that because, in PFS OP, you can't start above level 1. But in a non-PFS game, what's to stop you from saying, "I just graduated from the PFS school in Absalom *and* my character is now a 3rd-level fighter?" Answer: nothing. What's to stop you in PFS OP from saying, "My 1st level Fighter was a field commission because a venture-captain saw some extra special attitude in my PC that he generally doesn't see in new recuits." Answer: nothing. Heck, a campaign that began with the players as 1st-level recruits at the school, played through some non-typical shenanigans at the school until they graduated at 3rd level or so and then went out into the world to learn more about said shenanigans sounds like a fun campaign to me.
I just don't see how the mention of training is in anyway limiting. It might not fit your original perception of the Society (and I mean the general "you," not you in particular, Chris) but it's also not imposing a PFS-shattering rule that makes your current character unplayable either.
Yep, it's all about how you define your backstory. Wizards supposedly train for years before they hit level 1; for Pathfinders, perhaps part of that training comes from the Grand Lodge.
We also don't define what happens when you're a guy with an NPC class who (as part of his backstory) decides to become an adventurer; we generally hand-wave level 1 people who clearly would have levels in commoner, expert, or warrior and want to have a character class... that's why Hellknight armigers can be level 1 warriors, yet all of the experienced Hellknights don't have a single level in warrior, they just have PC class levels. Does that warrior level "translate" into a level in a PC class? Do they trade it in for a level in a PC class: Answer: It doesn't matter, what matters is what the character can do now and if you can build your character in a way that satisfies your backstory and your goals for the character in play. Sometimes that means your PC is an established adventurer who gets recruited by the PFS with a field commission. Sometimes that means your PC starts out at level 1 as a "graduate" of the Grand Lodge. Either way, you're ready to explore, chronicle, and have fun.
And where's the benefit in sending out a bunch of untrained explorers operating as members of your organization who all get killed on their first romp through a trap-laden dungeon?
I think several people (including myself) assumed that you would do some dungeon-romping on your own before joining the Pathfinders. That's like saying: "Where's the benefit of letting scientists join the Royal Society if they haven't gone to Royal Society school for three years?"
No, it would be more like saying, "Where's the benefit in letting anyone call themselves a member of the Royal Society without first vetting that they, in fact, have something scientific to add to our organization?"
Nothing says you can't have been a dungeon-romper who either got into the Society with a field commission or got into the Society by joining through the Grand Lodge in Absalom.
I appreciate that everyone's perception of the Society and the reality of it might not jive, but I don't see how the tiny training paragraphs in the book make it impossible for someone to play whatever Pathfinder they want.
[Traveler's Aid Society International's] Mission: To advance and support a network of human service provider organizations committed to assisting individuals and families who are in transition, or crisis, and are disconnected from their support systems.
How exactly?
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Not that one, this one.
The Travellers' Aid Society is a private organization which maintains hostels and facilities at all class A and B starports in human space. Such facilities are available (at reasonable cost) to members and their guests.
Yeah, sorry, I don't really see the similarities to that one either. :-)
Not that one, this one.
The Travellers' Aid Society is a private organization which maintains hostels and facilities at all class A and B starports in human space. Such facilities are available (at reasonable cost) to members and their guests.
I don't get it, that at a snatch glance is hotel for heroes, the Pathfinder society is an organisation dedicated in name at least to the discovery of lost places, times, and objects of great value and antiquity.
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Not that one, this one.
The Travellers' Aid Society is a private organization which maintains hostels and facilities at all class A and B starports in human space. Such facilities are available (at reasonable cost) to members and their guests.
Perhaps TwoWolves is implying that the Traveller's Aid Society is ubiquitous and influential in Traveller as the Pathfinder Society is prominent in Golarion. There seems to be that much in common -- and the fact that both organizations have names tied to their respective games.
Mind you, it would seem that there are many more ways to join the Pathfinder Society than the Traveller's Aid Society. Both, however, can be used for adventure hook in their respective settings. (I would argue that the Pathfinder Society is more interesting as it is a more active organization.)
By the way, 2010 marks the 350th year of the Royal Society. I see that organization as having a lot of parallels with the Pathfinder Society. (I have not read the book, and only just finished reading the Core Rulebook.)
