Well if you have the spells or ability to generate things from rocks then go wild. What the hell do you need a magic shoppe for?
I love these forums.
I once tried to solve a starvation problem by turning a certain amount of a rock wall into flesh with stone to flesh.
The DM ruled it was disgusting "wall-meat". No one ate it. Not even the troll rooming with me.
I'm sure it couldn't have been worse than the "meat" they serve at Taco Bell. Snooty troll ....
You, um, just redefined "discretion" to mean "all of the good stuff about GM fiat." Arbitrary decisions are still arbitrary decisions, whether they're good or bad. You can reframe the discussion if you want, but discretion = fiat = making a call = arbitrary decisions. All you're doing is shuffling semantic baggage around.
Whether you agree or disagree with my 'semantic baggage' shuffling, my point was made, even by your own admission, that I focused on 'all the good stuff about *whateveryouwanttocallit*' and I've reinforced that approach to GMing.
'Fiat', as a term, is a hot button word which evokes instant electrified opinion and visceral reaction - not unlike 'liberal' or 'neocon' in political discussions. Even the OP understood that, in beginning this discussion, he was potentially opening a pandora's box of angst, anger, and polarized opinion.
You may dislike that a person chooses to utilize another term to describe "all the good stuff about *whateveryouwanttocallit*" but I choose to equate GM'ing with this kind of "good".
phantom post.
One never knows when one might die in their sleep. It seems only fair to make the game as close to like as possible.Finally, someone else who recognizes that Gary is God.Auxmaulos, I think it's pretty much a clear case of religious debate.
I heard the Gygax required players to make rolls just to have their characters wake up in the morning.
Gee, when you put it that way...;)
You, um, just redefined "discretion" to mean "all of the good stuff about GM fiat." Arbitrary decisions are still arbitrary decisions, whether they're good or bad. You can reframe the discussion if you want, but discretion = fiat = making a call = arbitrary decisions. All you're doing is shuffling semantic baggage around.Whether you agree or disagree with my 'semantic baggage' shuffling, my point was made, even by your own admission, that I focused on 'all the good stuff about *whateveryouwanttocallit*' and I've reinforced that approach to GMing.
'Fiat', as a term, is a hot button word which evokes instant electrified opinion and visceral reaction - not unlike 'liberal' or 'neocon' in political discussions. Even the OP understood that, in beginning this discussion, he was potentially opening a pandora's box of angst, anger, and polarized opinion.
You may dislike that a person chooses to utilize another term to describe "all the good stuff about *whateveryouwanttocallit*" but I choose to equate GM'ing with this kind of "good".
uhuh.. whatever he said ^^
What is best as a DM?
"Crush your PCs, see them driven before you and to hear the lamenations of the players."
Dm Fiat should be used to move the story or to add background to the world. Example, The PC's are taken to a temple under attack by a high level NPC. The NPC has a flying chariot and a returning spear and a lot of levels. PCs arrive jump off the chariot, watch the NPC be a BAD ASS and then go fight in another area while the PC's fought their own battle. They saved the day, while the NPC closed the magical gates and prevented the attackers from leaving the temple grounds.
Rocks fall everyone dies is funny, but wrong.
Fiat is a powerful tool when used wisely.
Used unwisely the fiat is more destuction that a three day taco/pizza/beer bender.
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Hmmmn. Wall meat & Magic Shoppes.... well, i admit I am having trouble keeping up, but i will try, in the spirit of just sharing ideas....
Wall meat good. Yes, tapping rocks for water, or elven women for pleasure are all wonderful things. A great game one involved transmute flesh to stone, stone to mud, or something like that. I think there are governing "perameters" to what might be considered classic Dungeons & Dragons mileau. Some of these tropes are outlined in Gygax's Insidae, or Living Fantasy Realms by Troll Lord Games.
What most newcomers (last 0-15 yrs) might not recall, is that in the 1980s if you said, "In town you find Fizban's Arcane Magik Shoppe," you were generally laughed out of the DM chair. Such a display of misunderstanding of the mileau was laughable. It is important to note: THIS IS NO LONGER TRUE IN MODERN GAMING)
The modern RPG has generally blended and accepted many more fantasy tropes, including high magic campaigns, into what is considered the general game. GURPS opened the door to doing anything, and hundreds of off-shute games have blurred what was once Gygax's vision of classic D&D. In fact, the IP (intellectual property) owners even moved away from the classic D&D tropes in an effort to continue support for other marketed efforts such as Magic the Gathering, which seems to still be blending into 4e with the advent, and popularity of, gaming cards.
What the community struggles with most, I believe, is its inability to determine classifications for types of genres, tropes, mileaux's (forgive the spelling on that word), etc. If it were done, we might find that we agree more often than not, but until then, we have a mash up of disagreements where seemingly all gamers do is just argue about stuff - which is gravely disappointing, however much enlightening and enjoyable it may be.
For example,
Classic D&D (Gygax's vision that clerics will generally have a routine of activity within their church, that ressurection was scarce or costly, and magic shopps could only exist in a society that was magically advanced or teeming with magic (as some areas of Forgotten Realms by Greenwood later came to popularize).
Greenwood's D&D (High Fantasy with expansive histories and robust complicated deific interactions). This generally expanded upon Gary's mileau but dialed the magic level up to 8 or 9. It also set about codefying the most expansive chronologue of timelines in the spirit of Columbia Games' Harn World.
Cook's D&D (Monte curbed the wonkiness of the ruleset but also introduced some modern video-game tropes such as magic shopping, a lot of magic item crafting codification, and managed to make the most "game-playable" D&D yet by implementing the recently purchased d20 system and integrating it into D&D. Brilliant. Still brilliant. Very rich, modern, internally consistent, and wow - "high rolls are generally good" was an easier concept to make the game more playable. Finally, 3.0, v.3.5, Pathfinder RPG, continues to carry on the tropes and traditions of vancian magic, but with a more vivid art, and statistical detail. The sophisitcation of this system is said to slow play a bit, but its richness and attention to specific detail continues to be appreciated by gamers who are willing to improve and get better over time, rather than have instant, but shallow, game play as in 4.0 imho.
NOTE: It is not my intention to debate this.... this is just what I would think would be the start of perhaps a chart that players and gamemasters could use to better communicate with one another. If I were running 1e games, and I do once a month, I would let my players know that the game moves very very very fast, and I will be regulating things like passage of time, describing things like movement and location, and resolving things in a way that requires my players to ask a question if something is unclear. Similarly, I run Pathfinder RPG weekly, and all the players know we run Bulmahn's book RAW, yet as the GM, I am the ruleset and my descriptions, rulings, adjudications are final and supercede everything. (I do, however, use this position of power humbly, and never indicate just where or how I am deviating from rules.)
Rules are just a tool.
Rules used to be just ideas or descriptions meant to help a DM understand her world better. Sometimes the ambiguity of describing things unknown to players, including creatures and environs not easily described by rules, make for the most memorable games! There is a tension and a slight excitement from this ambiguity that helps players immerse themselves into the moment, like when we watch scary movies and feel that nervousness, players are called to action and heroism in those times.
Dice are a tool, the screen is a tool, books are tools, character sheets are tools, DM fiat is a tool.
Ultimately, the gamemaster is the players ultimate resource to help them know the world. Codefication of the game to any degree that ousts the respected GM from this position, or eliminates classic tropes, is truly a modern game. Yet, can be a fun game, if that is either all young or gamers know of the game, or perhaps is what they prefer.
It does not, and should not insult any modern gamer to learn the history of the game. Just as grognards should not be insulted by younger or newer players because they adhere to a more classic approach to the perameters and boundaries of the mileau.
Well spoken. Please accept this pie.
You, um, just redefined "discretion" to mean "all of the good stuff about GM fiat." Arbitrary decisions are still arbitrary decisions, whether they're good or bad. You can reframe the discussion if you want, but discretion = fiat = making a call = arbitrary decisions. All you're doing is shuffling semantic baggage around.Whether you agree or disagree with my 'semantic baggage' shuffling, my point was made, even by your own admission, that I focused on 'all the good stuff about *whateveryouwanttocallit*' and I've reinforced that approach to GMing.
'Fiat', as a term, is a hot button word which evokes instant electrified opinion and visceral reaction - not unlike 'liberal' or 'neocon' in political discussions. Even the OP understood that, in beginning this discussion, he was potentially opening a pandora's box of angst, anger, and polarized opinion.
You may dislike that a person chooses to utilize another term to describe "all the good stuff about *whateveryouwanttocallit*" but I choose to equate GM'ing with this kind of "good".
I hate it when you try to make a verbal distinction, and people say its just "semantics". (The study of meaning? Really? Awesome!) Now personally, I have no problem with the word "fiat," but there could be conceptual reasons for using another term, or lacking those, rhetorical reasons. I wish when someone tried to introduce a verbal distinction, which is something that is done in intellectual pursuits all the time, often because it is necessary, people would engage what's at the root of the move, rather than just superficially rejecting it as verbal. We would first need to know more about how fiat, arbitrary, and good/bad were really being used here before hard accusations were made.
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I hate it when you try to make a verbal distinction, and people say its just "semantics". (The study of meaning? Really? Awesome!) Now personally, I have no problem with the word "fiat," but there could be conceptual reasons for using another term, or lacking those, rhetorical reasons. I wish when someone tried to introduce a verbal distinction, which is something that is done in intellectual pursuits all the time, often because it is necessary, people would engage what's at the root of the move, rather than just superficially rejecting it as verbal. We would first need to know more about how fiat, arbitrary, and good/bad were really being used here before hard accusations were made.You, um, just redefined "discretion" to mean "all of the good stuff about GM fiat." Arbitrary decisions are still arbitrary decisions, whether they're good or bad. You can reframe the discussion if you want, but discretion = fiat = making a call = arbitrary decisions. All you're doing is shuffling semantic baggage around.Whether you agree or disagree with my 'semantic baggage' shuffling, my point was made, even by your own admission, that I focused on 'all the good stuff about *whateveryouwanttocallit*' and I've reinforced that approach to GMing.
'Fiat', as a term, is a hot button word which evokes instant electrified opinion and visceral reaction - not unlike 'liberal' or 'neocon' in political discussions. Even the OP understood that, in beginning this discussion, he was potentially opening a pandora's box of angst, anger, and polarized opinion.
You may dislike that a person chooses to utilize another term to describe "all the good stuff about *whateveryouwanttocallit*" but I choose to equate GM'ing with this kind of "good".
Come now, remember your sap pressure. But yeah, I really hate it when pople talk about semantics without really having a grasp of what it means also.
Fiat is a powerful tool when used wisely.
Used unwisely the fiat is more destuction that a three day taco/pizza/beer bender.
Don't forget the chili nachos toppled with jalapenos and habaneros.
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I really hate it when pople talk about semantics without really having grasp of what it means also.
Naw, what is much more annoying is troll posting with Aspect of Gygax/phantom post as a derail/threadcrap until you see something you want to actually comment on. Basically flipping the bird to all those involved in the thread until you decide on something which is worthy of your attention.
Mr. Fishy is a hungery, hungery fish. With lethal stomach problems.
I'm glad Pax has time for producing mighty posts. He's who I thought of when I saw the OP.
Just FYI, Auxmaulous, "phantom post" or ghosting is when new posts are made in a thread and you can't see them until you post something. A regrettable, but real phenomenon.
Just FYI, Auxmaulous, "phantom post" or ghosting is when new posts are made in a thread and you can't see them until you post something. A regrettable, but real phenomenon.
Hmm... what purpose does that serve?
Really? I thought waiting a few minutes fixed the problem - seems to work for other threads. Thanks for the info though.
Not necessarily. Sometimes it can drag on for over a half hour or longer -- depending on the activity of that particular forum (which tends to do in the quickly moving ones). Sometimes we can guess what's coming next for posts in the thread, but if we're anticipating a response and we can no longer wait, then the need for the 'dump post'. I learned the hard way myself when i began posting several months ago. :D
Gary explained to us why it happens, but he used all sorts of technical gobbelty-g*@#, so all I came away with is, "Due to technical reasons, the boards are charmingly wonky. Sometimes, very much so." Yeah, I am a humanities guy.
Wow, I can't say g00k. Well, if people can't tell when speech is racist and when it is not, I guess we can't expect AI to be smarter than people.
Gary explained to us why it happens, but he used all sorts of technical gobbelty-g&&!, so all I came away with is, "Due to technical reasons, the boards are charmingly wonky. Sometimes, very much so." Yeah, I am a humanities guy.
Oh, the inhumanities! :P
Mr. Fishy finds the above post offensive on the water that Mr. Fishy is not Human.
The unhmanities? The nonhumanities? Phish Tosh!
Well, if people can't tell when speech is racist and when it is not, I guess we can't expect AI to be smarter than people.
FORUM AI FIAT!!!!
Wow, I can't say g00k. Well, if people can't tell when speech is racist and when it is not, I guess we can't expect AI to be smarter than people.
Wow. Gobbletyg**k just took on a new meaning that I, before learning of the censorship, would never have considered.
/inappropriate giggle
I'm hungry for chinese right now.
Really? I thought waiting a few minutes fixed the problem - seems to work for other threads. Thanks for the info though.Not necessarily. Sometimes it can drag on for over a half hour or longer -- depending on the activity of that particular forum (which tends to do in the quickly moving ones). Sometimes we can guess what's coming next for posts in the thread, but if we're anticipating a response and we can no longer wait, then the need for the 'dump post'. I learned the hard way myself when i began posting several months ago. :D
I have a post I made in this thread that never showed up. I re-posted it and THAT one showed up. There are two identical posts in my "Recent Posts" list and both go to this thread, but only one is visible.
I think it's the phantom post on page 6.
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Wow, I can't say g00k. Well, if people can't tell when speech is racist and when it is not, I guess we can't expect AI to be smarter than people.Wow. Gobbletyg**k just took on a new meaning that I, before learning of the censorship, would never have considered.
/inappropriate giggle
Which is why language is more than just words.
I'm hungry for chinese right now.
My people are only delicious to large monsters.
Oh wait, that's a different group altogether.
Which is why language is more than just words.
Yeah, I love it when Japanese/Manga/Anime Fanbois go on and on about how great and complex the Japanese language is compared to English. LOL. English is just as complex and lively as any other language. And hilaaarious.
You should hear fish, or swear.
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Which is why language is more than just words.Yeah, I love it when Japanese/Manga/Anime Fanbois go on and on about how great and complex the Japanese language is compared to English. LOL. English is just as complex and lively as any other language. And hilaaarious.
According to most language instructors I have talked to, English is actually the hardest language to teach to non-native speakers.
Yeah, I love it when Japanese/Manga/Anime Fanbois go on and on about how great and complex the Japanese language is compared to English. LOL. English is just as complex and lively as any other language. And hilaaarious.
I spent 2 years studying japanese in college. And i would say amusingly enough, japanese is far simpler then English. If I didnt have such a problem writing kanji (my handwriting is attrocious and slowly getting worse as I write by hand less and less) I probably would have persued it further. But in terms of grammar and sentance structure, and even vocabulary, japanese is far simpler then the mish mash that is the english language.
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According to most language instructors I have talked to, English is actually the hardest language to teach to non-native speakers.
Which is why language is more than just words.Yeah, I love it when Japanese/Manga/Anime Fanbois go on and on about how great and complex the Japanese language is compared to English. LOL. English is just as complex and lively as any other language. And hilaaarious.
...does that count Americans?
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...does that count Americans?According to most language instructors I have talked to, English is actually the hardest language to teach to non-native speakers.
Which is why language is more than just words.Yeah, I love it when Japanese/Manga/Anime Fanbois go on and on about how great and complex the Japanese language is compared to English. LOL. English is just as complex and lively as any other language. And hilaaarious.
Yes if you are discussing the Queen's English or Australian English. In fact it is the similarities of the various forms of English that make it hard to transit from on to the other.
Yes if you are discussing the Queen's English or Australian English. In fact it is the similarities of the various forms of English that make it hard to transit from on to the other.
You say colour, I say color.
Mr. Fishy would like to point out that Americans haven't spoken "english" is more that a hundred years, you speak you're just to lazy to change the name, you would have to name it based on region "Southern", "Hick", "Redneck","NewEngland", "Califorina", "Valley", "Mid-western", you know what, not lazy you don't have time to rename it.
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Yes if you are discussing the Queen's English or Australian English. In fact it is the similarities of the various forms of English that make it hard to transit from on to the other....does that count Americans?According to most language instructors I have talked to, English is actually the hardest language to teach to non-native speakers.
Which is why language is more than just words.Yeah, I love it when Japanese/Manga/Anime Fanbois go on and on about how great and complex the Japanese language is compared to English. LOL. English is just as complex and lively as any other language. And hilaaarious.
Probably read it on a thread here a few years ago, "English doesn't borrow from other languages. It drags them into a dark alley and mugs them."
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I spent 2 years studying japanese in college. And i would say amusingly enough, japanese is far simpler then English.
Yeah, I love it when Japanese/Manga/Anime Fanbois go on and on about how great and complex the Japanese language is compared to English. LOL. English is just as complex and lively as any other language. And hilaaarious.
Mostly the difficulty of learning English is that we use similar sounding words to mean highly different things. To a non-native speaker a sentence such as "I went to the store to buy two tomatoes and she was there too," would be gibberish. Like wise the sentence "I read Redbook to see what Oprah says I should read." Most other languages that I am familiar with have very few if any homophones in them.
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Mr. Fishy would like to point out that Americans have spoken "english" is more that a hundred years, you speak your just to lazy to change the name, you would have to name it based on region "Southern", "Hick", "Redneck","NewEngland", "Califorina", "Valley", "Mid-western", you know what, not lazy you don't have time to rename it.
Of course Mr. Fishy should also know that the English have not spoken English for quite awhile either, based on a reading of 16th century English texts.
Mostly the difficulty of learning English is that we use similar sounding words to mean highly different things. To a non-native speaker a sentence such as "I went to the store to buy two tomatoes and she was there too," would be gibberish. Like wise the sentence "I read Redbook to see what Oprah says I should read." Most other languages that I am familiar with have very few if any homophones in them.I spent 2 years studying japanese in college. And i would say amusingly enough, japanese is far simpler then English.
Yeah, I love it when Japanese/Manga/Anime Fanbois go on and on about how great and complex the Japanese language is compared to English. LOL. English is just as complex and lively as any other language. And hilaaarious.
You know i misread that sentance about oprah the first time through. Its always a fun little game figuring out if you are using past or present tense of the word 'read', if you are not sure. But there was a comedian that liked point out.
Tomb, Comb, bomb
daughter,laughter
You know fun stuff like that.
I love American english. It's so alive. (Not to mean that other languages aren't... that statement was inclusive, not exclusive.)
Probably read it on a thread here a few years ago, "English doesn't borrow from other languages. It drags them into a dark alley and mugs them."
Yeah I heard a variation of that one:
English doesn't borrow from other languages. It mugs them and rifles their pockets for spare vocaubulary ...
Gotta love a Celtic-romantic-germanic-scandinavian mish mash..
Tell a gentleman from Britian, Americans speak English and see how he feels about it.
Tell a gentleman from Britian, Americans speak English and see how he feels about it.
Tell a freshwater fish that oceans rule and you'll get the same feeling ...
You know i misread that sentance about oprah the first time through. Its always a fun little game figuring out if you are using past or present tense of the word 'read', if you are not sure. But there was a comedian that liked point out.
Tomb, Comb, bomb
daughter,laughterYou know fun stuff like that.
Gallagher and Eddie Izzard had bits about this.
I'm having Beserker flashbacks from Clerks. \m/
Tell a gentleman from Britian, Americans speak English and see how he feels about it.
I have, its a fun conversation. Then I explain to him/her that english is ours now, we won it in the war.
... NewEngland" ...
Yer a wicked pissah mistah fishy! I wondah how'd you'd taste in chowdah!