I realize I may be posting a few too many threads regarding new stuff in the Advanced Player's Guide, but it's just something I'm really excited about since I think it could be the single most important supplement Pathfinder will get and we'd all like to see that done right. So, post your thoughts on Pathfinder spellcasting in general and what you'd like to see from the Advanced Player's Guide to change it for the better. I pretty much wrote this thread with regard to the sorcerer/wizard spell list, but don't limit the discussion to those!
For the wizard schools of magic, I pretty much think the conjuration, necromancy and illusion schools are all set with their staple spells, and to a lesser extent, the evocation school. Great schools which all do what they're supposed to, although the evocation school could use a boost in the blasting department. As for the remaining schools, we run into a few problems.
Abjuration has always been known as the defensive school of resistances, defense upgrades and dispelling. Although it pretty much has monopoly over the resistance and dispelling market, those are pretty situational uses and other schools continue to outshine it in the purely defensive field. while still being useful in other areas, conjuration being the strongest of the lot. Dispelling took a hit in Pathfinder and abjuration hasn't gotten a lot to compensate for it. Another underused feature of the abjuration school are the explosive runes (I'm not just talking about the single spell) which were always an interesting way to create a defensive offense/offensive defense. However, the only spells that do so are Explosive Runes, which is very situational and the glyph spells which are limited to clerics. Speaking of which, clerics with the rune domain gain a very interesting class feature which I think could be modified to be a low level abjuration spell for the wizards.
To summarize, the abjuration school could use:
- More variety
- Stronger, pure defensive spells
- More dispelling options
- More exploding runes! Something similar to glyphs but with a short duration and no material cost would be awesome.
Divination is really good at scrying and detecting stuff... and that's about it. Those are massively useful things because knowing is half the battle as we all know, but as with abjuration, they are situational and because Pathfinder has a heavy emphasis on combat, they don't really have a lot of use there. However, there are a few spells in the divination school that break the mold, like True Strike and Foresight, but those are few and far apart. I'd love to see spells like those that grant you combat bonuses because you know what's about to happen or you know the creatures weakness. An ability to bypass spell resistance or resistances would for example be great. I've always wanted a spell like detect thoughts that grants you combat bonuses against the target which thoughts you're reading.
To summarize, the divination school could use:
- More variety!
- Stronger and more combat options
I wish I could say something about the enchantment school, but I really don't know what could be done with it. The concept just seems too narrow to implement new and exciting ideas, unless you guys have some.
Well, discuss!
I think Abjuration could use some variants of Dispel Magic that have some carrier effects, like causing damage per spell level dispelled, healing damage per spell level dispelled, stealing the spell that was dispelled, stealing the spell energy that was dispelled (like a quickened/immediate use of a spell of the same level dispelled w/o losing the slot), etc. etc.
Divination could definitely use a combat boost, maybe providing insight bonuses to a variety of different combat aspects: Initiative, Attack Rolls, Damage Rolls, AC, Saving Throws, CL checks, opposed skill checks, maybe giving a free counter to an opponent's action ("I knew you were going to cast fireball, so I counterspelled it," or "I knew you were going to try to Bull Rush me, so I stepped out of your way.").
Also, Divinations that can tell the caster about an opponent's ability ("the Jabberwocky is vulnerable to cold iron weapons and cold, but immune to fire," or "The warrior in front of you has good Fortitude and Will Saves.").
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More interesting spells that have a utility use and aren't combat related! :)
HERE HERE!
Combat is a major part of the game to be sure, but not ALL of the game is combat. I want to see some spells that actually can be used in social situations, and investigations. I spend at least half the game in social situations and it seems like only the bard or rogue are any good in those situations- skills and such. Would be nice to see a wizard able to do something for once. Fighters and barbarians just grunt and say "yes."
You know what I'd like?
A variant of Dispel Magic/Greater Dispel Magic that's created purely for Counterspelling. Nobody ever uses counterspelling that I've seen due to the limitations (must have correct spell, or Dispel Magic for a 50% or so chance, must ready an action at the correct target).
A lvl 5-6 spell that was dispel magic, only for counterspelling, and cast as an immediate action would be quite fun I think.
Or a higher level Dispel Magic that automatically countered spells of lvl x or lower.
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I would like to see more spells that make use of rays, personally. Like, for instance, a 3rd level damage spell that uses a ranged touch attack...? But in all seriousness, if you want to be a sorcerer/wizard that specializes in ray spells, you're probably stuck with Scorching Ray pretty much until you get disintegrate. Don't get me wrong, Scorching ray remains useful for much of the time, but it gets boring having it be the only option for your ray spell for a full 4 levels of spells. Make something like an Freezing Ray, that deals damage and freezes your target to the ground. Some interesting attack options that have carrier effects, I guess is what I'm saying.
Also I notice a trend with higher-level damage spells being all area spells. Maybe have some that are more flexible, like a spell that is a line that you can make it turn and twist however you want. Or spells that have multiple blasts (like 4 ten-foot squares anywhere within the spells range, but at least 30ft from any other square, but stipulate that you can't place them over each other).
How about lower-level, shorter range teleportation spells? For instance, a 3rd level spell that allows you to teleport up to close range as a swift/move action.
A spell that allows you to create a pit, maybe even an extra-dimensional pit so that you can do it on the second floor of a building for instance, right underneath somebody? Give them a reflex save to catch the edge, otherwise they fall 10ft per caster level. Some half-way decent damage, plus it takes someone out of the battle (I would say the duration would be, at most, 1 round/level, at which point the pit raises them to where they were, assuming they didn't climb out already).
More minor-effect spells that can be cast as swift actions.
I would like to see more spells that make use of rays, personally. Like, for instance, a 3rd level damage spell that uses a ranged touch attack...? But in all seriousness, if you want to be a sorcerer/wizard that specializes in ray spells, you're probably stuck with Scorching Ray pretty much until you get disintegrate. Don't get me wrong, Scorching ray remains useful for much of the time, but it gets boring having it be the only option for your ray spell for a full 4 levels of spells. Make something like an Freezing Ray, that deals damage and freezes your target to the ground. Some interesting attack options that have carrier effects, I guess is what I'm saying.
Also I notice a trend with higher-level damage spells being all area spells. Maybe have some that are more flexible, like a spell that is a line that you can make it turn and twist however you want. Or spells that have multiple blasts (like 4 ten-foot squares anywhere within the spells range, but at least 30ft from any other square, but stipulate that you can't place them over each other).
How about lower-level, shorter range teleportation spells? For instance, a 3rd level spell that allows you to teleport up to close range as a swift/move action.
A spell that allows you to create a pit, maybe even an extra-dimensional pit so that you can do it on the second floor of a building for instance, right underneath somebody? Give them a reflex save to catch the edge, otherwise they fall 10ft per caster level. Some half-way decent damage, plus it takes someone out of the battle (I would say the duration would be, at most, 1 round/level, at which point the pit raises them to where they were, assuming they didn't climb out already).
More minor-effect spells that can be cast as swift actions.
Lots of great ideas!
Speaking of short ranged, swift teleports, one of my favorite things in the Tome of Magic is the flicker mystery for shadowcasters. It lets you teleport 5 feet per 2 CL as an immediate action once per round per level; if used in response to an attack, that attack has a 50% miss chance.
I had high hopes that Paizo was going to revise the rules for counterspelling and make it a fundamental part of the game. Nope. Still think games would have become even more interesting if wizards could counterspell like mad. They'd have something to do for once! lol
Please tell me you're joking, Wizards already carry far more than their weight in your standard adventure.
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Spells / effects I'd like to see;
Air spells that involve knockbacks, knockdowns, suffocation, suspending others off of the ground and holding them helpless, etc.
Earth spells involving throwing rocks at people, creating tremors, causing the earth to snare people or sweeping people around with waves of earth.
Water spells that throw water at people, to knock them down, inflict nonlethal bludgeoning damage, etc. Perhaps even one that animates water and causes it to grapple and attempt to drown someone.
More divination spells, with some that have unusual effects, such as making the character defensively focused, able to anticipate and avoid attacks, or offensively focused, able to bypass the defenses of others and anticipate their movements and strike their most vulnerable points, or spells to reveal information to others in a way that is harmful, such as giving a foe uncontrollable awareness of everything around him, making him effectively blind, as he sees the future, the past, distant places, all superimposed over his own perceptions, uncontrollably, or becomes able to read the subconscious minds of every living thing within miles, becoming paralyzes or even stricken unconscious by the thousands of voices clamoring in his skull. Pick through the Clairsentience powers of 2nd and 3rd edition D&D for some inspiration, if necessary.
More abjuration spells, including some free action 'blocking' spells (or a longer casting spell that gives the user the ability to block / magically parry a single attack each round as a move action) that cause an attack to be negated, or, at higher levels, reflected on it's sender. Different spells might have different ways of performing this function, with one spell blocking the attack with a temporary wall of force, and another causing the abjurers body to momentarily shift out of the way of the incoming attack, or something.
Some evocation spells that cause effects, such as area trip, or bull rushing an area, or blinding an area with dazzling lights or strobes or dancing shadows, instead of just hit point damage.
A minimal number of new transmutation effects. That school is already a bit top-heavy, being the 'catch-all' garbage bin of spells that didn't get assigned to another school.
I had high hopes that Paizo was going to revise the rules for counterspelling and make it a fundamental part of the game. Nope. Still think games would have become even more interesting if wizards could counterspell like mad. They'd have something to do for once! lol
I agree! My thoughts on the notion.
I'd like some kind of alternate spell use. Being able to cast spells as a swift action, but with reduced duration or damage.
I.e. you can cast all wall spells (example:Wall of Force) as an immediate action which reduces its duration to 1 round. Or you can cast a Wall of Force as a swift action which reduces its duration to concentration.
Or you can cast a buff spell that persists at least 1r/lvl as an immediate action, reducing its duration to 1 round. Or cast it as a swift action reducing it to 1 round but affecting 1 person/lvl.
There's undoubtly more to think of.
Also more spells like call lightning or flaming sphere would be nice. Spells you can use every round as either move or standard to affect someone/something.
You know what I'd like?
A variant of Dispel Magic/Greater Dispel Magic that's created purely for Counterspelling. Nobody ever uses counterspelling that I've seen due to the limitations (must have correct spell, or Dispel Magic for a 50% or so chance, must ready an action at the correct target).A lvl 5-6 spell that was dispel magic, only for counterspelling, and cast as an immediate action would be quite fun I think.
Or a higher level Dispel Magic that automatically countered spells of lvl x or lower.
During the Beta Playtest some suggestions like this were made by various people (there were a lot of discussion on this topic, one of those can be found here).
Among those, one that I found most intriguing was this (it was a little hard to find, since it was moved after the Beta Playtest ended):
While making it an immediate action (or AoO action) would be a great improvement, I still don't think anyone would ever bother to use counter-spelling as long as it requires the use of a precisely matching spell (or dispel magic's, which could generally be used more productively).
Here's an idea for another improvement:
At every spell level, create a new spell call Counterspell I-IX in the Abjuration school. These spells can only be used as counters, but can counter any spell of equal or lower level. Simplify the countering rules such that, when you attempt a counter a spell, the original caster has to make a caster level check (perhaps influenced by the difference between the level of their spell and the level of your counterspell?) to keep the spell from fizzling.
Basically, I'd like to be able to play a dedicated dispeller. It's a character I've wanted to play for a while, but the rules don't really allow for it as long as I have to try to guess what spells my opponents will be using.
Just my 2c.
I'd like some kind of alternate spell use. Being able to cast spells as a swift action, but with reduced duration or damage.
I.e. you can cast all wall spells (example:Wall of Force) as an immediate action which reduces its duration to 1 round. Or you can cast a Wall of Force as a swift action which reduces its duration to concentration.
Or you can cast a buff spell that persists at least 1r/lvl as an immediate action, reducing its duration to 1 round. Or cast it as a swift action reducing it to 1 round but affecting 1 person/lvl.
There's undoubtly more to think of.
Also more spells like call lightning or flaming sphere would be nice. Spells you can use every round as either move or standard to affect someone/something.
Actually, a lot of your ideas sound like Metamagic Feats.
Say...
Swift Spell (metamagic)
Requirements: Quicken Spell
Benefit: You can cast any spell you have have prepared (or know if you cast spells spontaneously) with a casting time of 1 round or less and a duration other than instantaneous or permanent as a swift action. The duration of the affected spell is reduced to 1 round. This does not increase the level of the affected spell.
Normal: A spell you cast has its normal casting time and duration.
Immediate Spell (metamagic)
Requirements: Quicken Spell, Swift Spell
Benefit: You can cast any spell you have have prepared (or know if you cast spells spontaneously) with a casting time of 1 round or less and a duration other than instantaneous or permanent as an immediate action. The duration of the affected spell is reduced to 1 round. This does not increase the level of the affected spell.
Normal: A spell you cast has its normal casting time and duration and can only be cast on your turn.
I'd like some kind of alternate spell use. Being able to cast spells as a swift action, but with reduced duration or damage.
I.e. you can cast all wall spells (example:Wall of Force) as an immediate action which reduces its duration to 1 round. Or you can cast a Wall of Force as a swift action which reduces its duration to concentration.
Or you can cast a buff spell that persists at least 1r/lvl as an immediate action, reducing its duration to 1 round. Or cast it as a swift action reducing it to 1 round but affecting 1 person/lvl.
There's undoubtly more to think of.
Also more spells like call lightning or flaming sphere would be nice. Spells you can use every round as either move or standard to affect someone/something.
Actually, a lot of your ideas sound like Metamagic Feats.
Say...
Swift Spell (metamagic)
Requirements: Quicken Spell
Benefit: You can cast any spell you have have prepared (or know if you cast spells spontaneously) with a casting time of 1 round or less and a duration other than instantaneous or permanent as a swift action. The duration of the affected spell is reduced to 1 round. This does not increase the level of the affected spell.
Normal: A spell you cast has its normal casting time and duration.
Immediate Spell (metamagic)
Requirements: Quicken Spell, Swift Spell
Benefit: You can cast any spell you have have prepared (or know if you cast spells spontaneously) with a casting time of 1 round or less and a duration other than instantaneous or permanent as an immediate action. The duration of the affected spell is reduced to 1 round. This does not increase the level of the affected spell.
Normal: A spell you cast has its normal casting time and duration and can only be cast on your turn.
great idea
I'd like short range movement spells. I was a fanatical fan of the transposition spells in the Spell Compendium, and things like Dimension Step and Dimension Hop. Lower level, small scale willing and unwilling teleportation spells would be a great addition for me. They are fun both in and out of combat, and have provided with some of the best moment's i've had in a game.
Boring, but what I want most to see are more Mass versions of the regular buffing spells. It drives me crazy that in every new edition of D&D, Mass Resist Energy turns up in splatbooks, but never makes it to the next corebook. Ridiculous! Without the Masses, preparing spellcasters are forced to sullenly pack their heads with redundant spells. We need help here!
Some more masses I'd like to see:
Fly (at the minimum!)
Endure Elements
Lesser Restoration
Remove Fear, Disease
Comprehend Languages, Tongues
Delay Poison
Magic Weapon, Fang
Undetectable alignment
Spider Climb
Mount
Id like to see save or dies come back but they wont =(
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Cleric spells specifically, but in general just new spells that deal with the various Domains (or Specialty Schools/Bloodines) that, while not unique to those classes that take that option, are somehow difficult for others to have access to.
I second the Save or Die's, though I wouldn't mind if they don't literally kill on a failed save (such as instant drop to -1).
Spells that offer affects that are not the norm. No more Resistance, Morale, Alchemical, or Enhancement Bonuses. Clerics (and Paladins/Druids/etc) need a lot more Sacred/Profane/Divine Bonuses, while Wizards/Sorcerers need more Arcane/something else Bonuses.
Low level spells that last all day (with minor magical effects). But also have a direct combat and noncombat point. Maybe a scholarly Wizard can cast magical eyes, which allows them to read 4 times as fast as normal, and gives a +1 to sense ambushes and to identify Wizard spells being cast. A Cleric might cast a Channel Mastery spell that lets them deal 1 neg energy (nonlethal damage) with any touch attack (that doesn't heal undead), and puts a magical holy symbol on their armor/shield/weapon of choice that gets +1 to te D.C.'s of all Domain spells. Or perhaps minor curses against true enemies of their faith.
More necromatic effects and more undead creation spells.
More spells for rangers that help them in combat and with stealth... swift spells would be nice for combat.
If they do a bunch of ray/ orb spells please keep them in the appropriate schools of magic. It would be nice to see the evokers remain the best blasters.
More spells for rangers that help them in combat and with stealth... swift spells would be nice for combat.
If they do a bunch of ray/ orb spells please keep them in the appropriate schools of magic. It would be nice to see the evokers remain the best blasters.
And how about some archery-related Ranger spells. Cmon, they're supposed to be the best archers, but right now Fighter blows them out of the water if they spec in archery.
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I think that more Divination is definitely needed. I can see that seeing into the future can be game breaking, but consider this, we are still talking about people who can summon demons and fireballs. I think that more spells that replicate the function / flavour of later divination spells, ie better location spells / sixth sense spells could be powered down for use by wizards. I think the lack of compensation for diviners springs off of it being a minor focus in 3.5, also i think abjuration needs to be shifted a bit more, it needs more than just dispell magic.
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I think that more Divination is definitely needed. [snip] also i think abjuration needs to be shifted a bit more, it needs more than just dispell magic.
Agreed. I'm always peeved to read Wizards guides that advise a Specialist not to take Abjuration as a forbidden school for that one single spell. Dispel Magic isn't a school! It's just one darn spell! Let the Cleric cast Dispel Magic! :)
Abjuration should definitely have more to it. (And, to flog that long dead horse, Mage Armor should have been Abjuration.)
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I had high hopes that Paizo was going to revise the rules for counterspelling and make it a fundamental part of the game. Nope. Still think games would have become even more interesting if wizards could counterspell like mad. They'd have something to do for once! lolPlease tell me you're joking, Wizards already carry far more than their weight in your standard adventure.
lol
Sort of was. But Wizards can get shoved into niches as well, like a cleric being a healbot. He can do other things and really can shine as a class, but 90% of the time he's a healbot. Wizards can get stuck in the fireball tosser niche if not careful.
But honestly all magic casting classes, even Ranger and Paladin should be able to counterspell better than they can. It is a nonexistent part of the game.
Yeah can we have a bit of a break with more spells for core casters?
How about a few nifty ones for Pallies, Rangers, and to a point - Bards.
'Non-combat' related spell additions would be pretty good as well.
What I'm not that interested in is more of the same - ie Snowball - Fireball using Cold Damage or any of that guff.
SnowBall Fight ... Hehe
As far as wizards go, I would love to see the weaker spell schools fleshed out and please don't water down evocation by giving blasty spells to all the other schools of magic. In general... there are plenty of ways to roll fists full of d6s, new spells that involve different flavor text and "this spell does Xd6 damage" are just pretty lame. (We'll call it the snowball effect).
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How about a few nifty ones for Pallies, Rangers, and to a point - Bards.Good point.
I'd be particularly interested in Bard spells that had nothing to do with sonic damage, sound effects or music. Some fun toys for the Bards who specialize in Oratory, or other non-musical forms would be nice.
How about spells for bards as dancers? :) Maybe a spell that summons a stage a pole? >;)
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How about spells for bards as dancers? :) Maybe a spell that summons a stage a pole? >;)
Oh sure, that's the special effect for my hypnotism / fascinate spell, the cast of the Motley Crue Girls, Girls, Girls video. Stops 'em in their tracks every time.
But seriously, a few dance related spells could be neat, giving the Bard some movement utility effects (combat movement that ignores attacks of opportunity, for example, so long as s/he makes a perform (dance) check each round of movement, or something, for instance).
Although unique Bardic spells does lend itself to some bad jokes; with spells like Pop (deafens a single foe for one minute), Rap (raps someone on the noggin, distracting them as if they'd suffered 1 hit point of damage, although they take no actual damage), Heavy Metal (all metal gear in the affected area doubles in weight, possibly encumbering wearers, and metal armor inflicts twice it's normal armor check penalty), Soft Rock (stone item or creature targeted is treated as having a hardness (or damage reduction) of 0 for the duration), Power Ballad (grants allied spellcasters a bonus to their effective caster level equal to the Bards normal inspire competence rating for 1 round / level in the immediate area), Elevator Music (levitates everyone in the area, so long as the Bard continues performing), etc.
And then there's the really bad ones, like Hair Band, Crowd-Surfing, Mosh Pit, Summon Groupies and Rock Opera... :)
We've had a spell in our group called Summon Dee Snyder. He's so annoying you have to make a Will Save or attack him instead of any other target.
I think it would be cool for Bards to get some really good buffing spells, or spells that enhance their musical buffing.
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How about spells for bards as dancers? :) Maybe a spell that summons a stage a pole? >;)Oh sure, that's the special effect for my hypnotism / fascinate spell, the cast of the Motley Crue Girls, Girls, Girls video. Stops 'em in their tracks every time.
But seriously, a few dance related spells could be neat, giving the Bard some movement utility effects (combat movement that ignores attacks of opportunity, for example, so long as s/he makes a perform (dance) check each round of movement, or something, for instance).
Although unique Bardic spells does lend itself to some bad jokes; with spells like Pop (deafens a single foe for one minute), Rap (raps someone on the noggin, distracting them as if they'd suffered 1 hit point of damage, although they take no actual damage), Heavy Metal (all metal gear in the affected area doubles in weight, possibly encumbering wearers, and metal armor inflicts twice it's normal armor check penalty), Soft Rock (stone item or creature targeted is treated as having a hardness (or damage reduction) of 0 for the duration), Power Ballad (grants allied spellcasters a bonus to their effective caster level equal to the Bards normal inspire competence rating for 1 round / level in the immediate area), Elevator Music (levitates everyone in the area, so long as the Bard continues performing), etc.
And then there's the really bad ones, like Hair Band, Crowd-Surfing, Mosh Pit, Summon Groupies and Rock Opera... :)
OMG TOO FUNNY! lol just priceless! But still good ideas! lol
Every post was talking of adding new spells, more, more, more. Spells need editing, not getting more of them. Wiz/Sors, clerics and druids are most powerful classes since 2.0 and remained that in 3.0 , 3.5 and now in pathf. Yes divination needs more spells maybe, but comments like more evocation, more conjuration and more transmutation spells are big FAIL! Primery caster classes, already counted above are all around characters already, school spec is no longer prohibiting spells so mage armour ( that should remain conj ) is not prob if that is only reason why u don't play abj spec. Mass spells are good thing, but are too strong thing, with summons or big party they make things too easy, like spell compedium mass fire shield with druid summonings or now even with summoner making mobs of monsters as move action. Evocation could use a change in spells but instead of d6 getting d8 is not going to make it more fun to use, it will only take more time since u'll have less of those dices, and on big ( epic ) lvls thigs already get too slow. I like personally almost all suggestions on divination spells, but think on buffs u get if u choose divination as ur spec school, with wiz getting boost on init is big thing, if u play first u can decide combat in first round. Ranger should get some archery boosts for sure but i think it's bad to search those things in magic, better make it class bonus.
Maybe you didn't read every post? Because the sentiment of bumping these things is far from universal on this thread.
I know it's difficult if English is a second language for you so I apologize if this is the case. Otherwise, consider using paragraphs, spelling, and punctuation they are really helpful if you want people to actually comprehend what you type.
What Dennis is saying is that walls of text do no one any good. Hit Return a few times to insert some white space and it will do your posts a power of good!
Honestly, I would like to see a few more conjuration spells with saves. If for no other reason than to let players that take Spell Focus (conjuration) get a little more use out of the feat.
These could range from offensive teleportation effects (swapping places or disrupting the body) to conjuring harmful or hinding effects (a wall of webs that require a Ref save to cross without getting stuck).
I'd like to second the call for an immediate Dispel Magic.
I'd also like to see a d4 0-level melee touch spell for Arcane Tricksters to use.
I'd agree with that. So far the only reason I see for Spell Focus: Conjuration was for Augment Summoning, and (in 3.5) I just changed the prereqs for Augment Summoning to Skill Focus: Knowledge Planes.
It also helps with the Will Saves of cure spells against undead....which is OK for druids, but clerics generally have better ways to deal with undead, and the arcanists (other than bards) lack healing spells.
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I'd agree with that. So far the only reason I see for Spell Focus: Conjuration was for Augment Summoning, and (in 3.5) I just changed the prereqs for Augment Summoning to Skill Focus: Knowledge Planes.It also helps with the Will Saves of cure spells against undead....which is OK for druids, but clerics generally have better ways to deal with undead, and the arcanists (other than bards) lack healing spells.
True, but I have never seen that done, so it would have been (for my groups at least), one more useless option for the useless feat. :)
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More interesting spells that have a utility use and aren't combat related! :)HERE HERE!
Combat is a major part of the game to be sure, but not ALL of the game is combat. I want to see some spells that actually can be used in social situations, and investigations. I spend at least half the game in social situations and it seems like only the bard or rogue are any good in those situations- skills and such. Would be nice to see a wizard able to do something for once. Fighters and barbarians just grunt and say "yes."
I agree with this completely, Also I liked some of Sets idea on his listed grouping of spells.
The only new damage spells I would like to see would be ones that did less damage then avg for their level but with some type of side effect. Like a cold spell that does some dmg and causes the target to be slowed for one round or something. Things like that.
My gaming group currently has a level 15 Gnome Bard, who frequently complains that she is useless outside of buffing. As a small character (without precision damage) she is a low-damage dealer in combat, but her spells aren't helping out much.
She is an excellent buff specialist, & she contributes solidly to each fight, but after her buffs go up... she sorta sits there.
High level foes often have good will saves, and that's if I pull them strait out of the book, unmodified & unbuffed themselves. The vast majority of Bard Spells require a Will Save, which really leaves her bored. She often has to burn 3 or 4 spells before a foe rolls badly enough to be affected, which leaves her aching.
Now, personally, I think the issue for Bards is this: the narrow limit of spells by Save DC. The VAST MAJORITY are Will Saves, a small number allow Reflex saves, and the very rare few call for Fort. Saves. As such, Bards are largely useless, except against characters with low will saves.
I think Bards need some more spells that target Reflex saves, and quite a few more spells that target Fort. saves.
Actually, in general, I'm in favor of a larger degree of diversity for all the secondary caster classes. Full Casters shouldn't be the only ones with a variety of solid attack spells.
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My gaming group currently has a level 15 Gnome Bard, who frequently complains that she is useless outside of buffing. As a small character (without precision damage) she is a low-damage dealer in combat, but her spells aren't helping out much.
She is an excellent buff specialist, & she contributes solidly to each fight, but after her buffs go up... she sorta sits there.
High level foes often have good will saves, and that's if I pull them strait out of the book, unmodified & unbuffed themselves. The vast majority of Bard Spells require a Will Save, which really leaves her bored. She often has to burn 3 or 4 spells before a foe rolls badly enough to be affected, which leaves her aching.
Now, personally, I think the issue for Bards is this: the narrow limit of spells by Save DC. The VAST MAJORITY are Will Saves, a small number allow Reflex saves, and the very rare few call for Fort. Saves. As such, Bards are largely useless, except against characters with low will saves.
I think Bards need some more spells that target Reflex saves, and quite a few more spells that target Fort. saves.
Actually, in general, I'm in favor of a larger degree of diversity for all the secondary caster classes. Full Casters shouldn't be the only ones with a variety of solid attack spells.
The addition of several rays to the Bard's offensive spells in the 3.5 spell compendium largely solved this. Rays in the hands of Bards are particularly effective (higher base attack than normal arcane casters) and leads to them being both good buffers *and* good debuffers. Currently their debuff spread is weak for the exact reasons you cite. The few non-Will save spells they have are potent, but they're few and far between.
I'm all in favor of adding several Fort/Reflex save debuffs as well as ray spells to the Bard's arsenal. Perhaps a little more crowd control that isn't based on Will saves as well. Grease may be a great spell, but it doesn't make a class all by itself.
My gaming group currently has a level 15 Gnome Bard, who frequently complains that she is useless outside of buffing. As a small character (without precision damage) she is a low-damage dealer in combat, but her spells aren't helping out much.
If she doesn't want to be a buffer then why choose bard? That's what they are good at. It is also quite possible to make bards effective archers or even decent in melee.