|
I just used the drought as a example. None of them are game breaking it is to me changes the feel of magic. If cantrips never run out, then to me they feel less special. The lessen the effects of certain problems etc.
I just always imagine casters more along the lines of. Magic is powerful but taxing on spell casters. They can do amazing things but it leaves them mentally and physically exhusted after awhile. Being able to cast a cantrip over and over and over all day breaks that illusion for me.
That was what I meant. It is not about balance or power but the Illusion of the feel it presents.
See, in the vast majority of stories and other games, mages are magic. They live and breathe magic. They can't always do big things, but being in tune with the universe means they can often do minor things all the time.
The whole 'you have N spells, and that's it' is relatively rare in the stories I've read, at least, with the exception of D&D fic, Dying Earth, and stuff heavily derivative of D&D.
What you like is what you like, of course.
Say a warrior in the desert needs 5 lb. of water a day (and that is a low low estimate)
So low he'd soon be dead.
If he's at all encumbered etc you can EASILY double (or more) that figure.
Anyhow, its conversations like these that make me favour the low-magic item campaigns :p
Infinite cure minor wounds can get pretty crazy on its own.
Infinite cure minor wounds can get pretty crazy on its own.Which is why they got rid of Cure Minor Wounds. Stabilize is the healing Orison now, but it only works if you're at 0 hp or less.
lol. Totally missed that one.
without completely overhauling the pathfinder system I am considering a few changes :
* orisons become spell-like abilities with a somatic component, usable
a number of times per day (each)equal to your ability modifier that determines your bonus spells.
* Clerics can use Cure Minor wounds at will, though it can only restore a creature up to half his maximum hitpoints. you could damage undead without limit, though they have a save to negate the damage.
* increase the damage of acid splash and similar spells to 1d4 +1 though I'd not let them negate SR
* possibly make a few of them a little more powerful, less than a 1st level spell in any case though and more limited ability to grow in power with caster level.
* I'd also get rid of Channeling prefering something akin to Divine Feats, giving the cleric bonus Divine Feats, selectable from a list of not yet excisting Feats.
Higher level options will probably be more impressive. This means not every Cleric can automatically heal / damage undead though likely a less powerful option that allows that will be included.
The cleric will get these feats much like a wizard gets bonus feats, and I might include metamagic and certain item creation feats among the options.
I'd like to hear some feedback :-)
No, if you were a mage, YOU WERE A MAGE, and it was an inherent utter part of what you did. Sure, maybe you can't pull down the heavens all the time, but the idea of wandering around going 'welp, out of spells, guess I'll throw rocks at lizardmen' was ludicrous.
Even though the limits weren't noted as x per day in fiction, few fictional mages in more traditional western fantasy use spells a lot. Gandalf doesn't blast the wolves to pieces or summons a Hell Hound - he lights sticks on fire and throws them on the wolves.
Sparrowhawk from Ursula K. Leguin's books rarely use magic unless necessary, and certainly not anything that creates anything. And he's probably the most powerful mage in that world at a certain point.Eilonwy, the sorceress in Lloyd Alexanders works, rarely use spells.
And the list goes on. I don't think I've ever read a book where the good wizards used spellcasting in such a trivial manner as most D&D characters do. Sometimes the evil ones would, but those are commonly far more than mere humans.
In a game of Pathfinder, what is the likelihood that someone is just going to stand there, pointing their finger and zapping something every 6 seconds to fill it with water/mildly irritate it with acid/illuminate it, etc.?
You can, yes. But I reckon that any PC who does that is eventually going to get smacked in the head by their fellow party members (except in certain circumstances where it's useful, and I see no problem using cantrips in that way). If not the player getting smacked in the head by the GM (solves most of these gameplay "problems" I've found) ;)
And NPCs... "Lord Sims, that acolyte is trying to flood the canal with one of his prayers. Mind, it'll take him a few hours before it hits the canal's saturation point, these things being designed to withstand a certain amount of overflowing, and he'll probably get hungry or tired eventually, but..."
"Well, arrest him for sabotage. If he resists, the next moment he casts the damn spell, have your men shoot him."
Town guards ready an action to shoot as soon as he casts the spell after their captain talk to him. He can't do anything that round since he's already cast his spell, and after that point he's got to decide whether to continue slowly flooding the canal, fighting, or running.
Usage of Create Water in a desert... I see no problem with that. As someone pointed out, most adventurers don't go out into a desert without being prepared to anyway. And there's plenty of other desert hazards to worry about besides. Create Water won't save you from a sandstorm (at least not outside of unusual circumstances).
there never is a real issue to using a cantrip in combat, except for getting left behind by your party for being a useless waste of treasure.
cantrips should not take away careful preparation though, according to this argument alot of information in the rules could just be scrapped because it never comes into play anyway.
As is most cantrips wont do much, a few cantrips are decidedly more powerful, and I can't really see what makes them less powerful than some first level spells.
Some others I do not think should flavourwise be always available so that they negate or are superior to basic adventure gear.. like torches.
I rather like them being available as spell-like abilities usable a limited ammount of times though, honestly I am only interested in limiting idiotic spamming of orisons and cantrips, like filling a pit by casting create water 4 hours in a row, always having detect magic on, always having light on and so on
no, though unlimited uses seem 'a bit' much.
there isn't really a great deal wrong with a wizard resorting to 'mundane' weapons at low level though. combat potential of other 1st level characters isn't that great either.
I rather have a wizard resort to his mundane goods once in a while rather than having permanent magic effects ongoing.
limiting every cantrip prepared to intelligence modifier per day or something like that would be fine, and no more people will drown by evil clerical magic.
no, though unlimited uses seem 'a bit' much.
there isn't really a great deal wrong with a wizard resorting to 'mundane' weapons at low level though. combat potential of other 1st level characters isn't that great either.
I rather have a wizard resort to his mundane goods once in a while rather than having permanent magic effects ongoing.
limiting every cantrip prepared to intelligence modifier per day or something like that would be fine, and no more people will drown by evil clerical magic.
Even a 1st level Rogue has a larger combat capacity than a 1st level Wizard. I fail to see how exactly Cantrips being unlimited is even remotely unbalanced.
And Create Water is easily fixed, limit daily amount of water that can be created by it. Simple !Even a 1st level Rogue has a larger combat capacity than a 1st level Wizard. I fail to see how exactly Cantrips being unlimited is even remotely unbalanced.
ofcourse it can easily be fixed, I am not a rookie GM :p
The limitation is mostly flavourwise, I just don't like it.
I like to keep the tone of the game a bit less magic cheap, rather have them use torches then light spells they can use at will, I do like them to carry rations and waterskins at least on low level, the instant minor magic tricks bypasses hardships of adventuring from day 1 of the campaign.
Even a 1st level Rogue has a larger combat capacity than a 1st level Wizard. I fail to see how exactly Cantrips being unlimited is even remotely unbalanced.
Can anyone give an ingame example of how unlimited cantrips has "broken" the game please.
I just don't get it.
Stringburka:
Gandalf is a weird example, because he doesn't really cast 'spells' as such. But there's also little indication he runs out of whatever magic he does, he just doesn't do much overt stuff.
Given the small things he does, none of them show signs of running out. Like, say, making his pipe smoke do weird things.
Sparrowhawk is, similarly, a bad example. Sparrowhawk doesn't run out of magic, ever. He might get tired from the more powerful stuff. And he's certainly capable of casting magic almost constantly -- you said it yourself. He CHOOSES not to, because of the philosophy of interference in the world. On the island where wizards train, students cast magic all the time, generally minor things like illusions.
Which sounds like 'at-will' cantrips to me, though the system as a whole is different since, again, no fixed/prepped spells.
I'm not familiar with Eilonwy, but I'd ask... does she have a limited list of prepared spells that run out, or does she just choose when to cast?
Let me be clear, I have no problem with folks preferring magic to run out. But there's this tone from some of those folks that that kind of magic is the 'more natural' format or somehow better on a level beyond taste.
Look, D&D is a universe with permanent walls of fire, permanent teleport travel between large cities, decanters of endless water providing continuous fresh water in any moderate to large community.
It's already a hugely magic-drenched implicit setting unless you make deep surgery. This sparing approach to magic doesn't really make much of a deep impact on the setting.
at least gandalf uses a torch, he is prolly a fraud though
Doesn't he make the end of his staff glow?
at least gandalf uses a torch, he is prolly a fraud though
Thats strange, as i recall in the lord of the ring movie. In the Mines of Moradore, he stuck a crystal on his staff and then spent 3 days walking throw those mines.
Sounds like he used the light cantrip to me for most of the trip
Then he uped it to Daylight spell in the Dwarf Hall.
yea he prolly just uses a torch to smack random creatures around
I've never had a problem with the idea that my wizard would eventually run out of mojo.
But Paladins could Detect Evil at will as early as 2nd Edition. The guys for whom magic was EVERYTHING? Tough luck, chump.
As for those of you who question why someone would spend hours creating water...
...can be easily explained by saying it is part of their holy ritual.
For example, say a team of 100 1st-level clerics (with a few higher level ones mixed in) cast create water over and over again for two hours (approximately the same length someone goes to church in real life) every single day.
This would make a lot of sense if they were water clerics, community clerics (allowing citizens to wash/drink, etc,), nature clerics (plants/crops drink too), or something similar.
Such a team of clerics would produce at least 240,000 gallons of water each day for themselves, their citizens, their crops, their deity, or whatever.
If it was something like a metropolis, you could potentially have enough clerics that you could have them take shifts, so that you have a team working on creating water 24/7.
|
|
Well as someone pointed out. It is not about them being over powered or even abused. It is about how lots of even minor magic can change things and more important the flavor. This isn't just about wizards. As someone mentioned paladins and detect evil. Personally I don't like anyone being able to do a magic effect at will forever.(by forever I of course mean till they feel like stopping or are forced to stop by thirst, others or what ever)
For me at least it is mostly the flavor and while the default DnD setting might be high magic, high fantasy it isn't the only way DnD can play and play well. The never ending magic just kills some of my immersion and kills some of my joy of playing. My group is the same way. i get how others disagree.
I was mostly posting to show the OP he is not alone in his views is all. Not to start a debate about it.
I did like one of the idea's posted of letting them cast each cantrip they know X number of times. That might be interesting or just be able to cast x number of cantrips per day. X being caster level + stat mod or something.
Anyways to OP I suggest if you have a problem with cantrips being never ending, just make adjustments to fit what makes you happy and go from there.
As for those of you who question why someone would spend hours creating water...
...can be easily explained by saying it is part of their holy ritual.
For example, say a team of 100 1st-level clerics (with a few higher level ones mixed in) cast create water over and over again for two hours (approximately the same length someone goes to church in real life) every single day.
This would make a lot of sense if they were water clerics, community clerics (allowing citizens to wash/drink, etc,), nature clerics (plants/crops drink too), or something similar.
Such a team of clerics would produce at least 240,000 gallons of water each day for themselves, their citizens, their crops, their deity, or whatever.
If it was something like a metropolis, you could potentially have enough clerics that you could have them take shifts, so that you have a team working on creating water 24/7.
haha now I am sure I am stopping this silliness in my campaign
|
0 level spells are now no longer limited uses, but at will abilities. Spontaneous casters may cast their known cantrips at will, and prepared casters may prepare their regular allotment and cast them at will. As such, certain tweaks must be made. Dancing Lights can only have one casting in effect at a time. Caster level for all 0 levels is 1, but can be maintained by concentration. Cure Minor may be cast at will, but only heals Stamina damage and stabilizes targets.
I feel that without the boost to caster level increasing things, cantrips are not overpowered. I haven't yet had a chance to see them in action, but hopefully will this Saturday when I start the campaign.
haha now I am sure I am stopping this silliness in my campaign
Silliness? An idea such as this could enrich a campaign by making a given city or religion unique and not, you know, bland.
And Create Water is easily fixed, limit daily amount of water that can be created by it. Simple !Even a 1st level Rogue has a larger combat capacity than a 1st level Wizard. I fail to see how exactly Cantrips being unlimited is even remotely unbalanced.
You failed to notice how I said no Cantrips were broken.
Stringburka:
Gandalf is a weird example, because he doesn't really cast 'spells' as such. But there's also little indication he runs out of whatever magic he does, he just doesn't do much overt stuff.
Given the small things he does, none of them show signs of running out. Like, say, making his pipe smoke do weird things.Sparrowhawk is, similarly, a bad example. Sparrowhawk doesn't run out of magic, ever. He might get tired from the more powerful stuff. And he's certainly capable of casting magic almost constantly -- you said it yourself. He CHOOSES not to, because of the philosophy of interference in the world. On the island where wizards train, students cast magic all the time, generally minor things like illusions.
Which sounds like 'at-will' cantrips to me, though the system as a whole is different since, again, no fixed/prepped spells.I'm not familiar with Eilonwy, but I'd ask... does she have a limited list of prepared spells that run out, or does she just choose when to cast?
Yes, I agree that there is a large difference, but that's because D&D has quite a unique system. Much like how fantasy rarely uses a "mana" concept in the way computer games usually do.
My objection weren't to the very specifics of limited spell per day use, but rather to what seemed to be a notion of how a spellcaster would cast spells for everything - especially the note about throwing rocks, as Gandalf throws sticks.
It's easy to see though that some system for limiting magic is needed, because many players would abuse a system that was based on "you can do anything with magic, but you really shouldn't" like there is in LeGuin's books. Personally I'm commonly more in favor of a skill-based magic system where you go tired by casting too many spells, but traditionally D&D has had spells per day. You can see that limitation as "I don't have enough energy to cast spells", or if you want an alternative feeling something more along the lines of LeGuin: "I don't want to cast more spells than this because it could really upset the world".
Basically, it will be that you have one free spell per day per spell level below the highest you can cast, and that any spell apart from these cause 1d6 damage per spell level and fatigue to the caster, unless he makes a will save dc 3+3*spell level to convert damage into subdual and remove the fatigue effect.
Personal alternative solution:
Congratulations. You've just converted Shadowrun to D&D. :)
Not being snide, seriously. That's how Shadowrun handles it. You can cast all you want, but you take damage if you cast too much too often.
You might want to change that to ability damage that heals with sleep instead of HP damage though. Otherwise two clerics will keep each other up and casting spells all day. Or a paladin and a cleric... or a druid and a cleric, or you get the idea.
Or specify that the HP damage can only be healed after a full nights rest, or something else equally restrictive.
|
I don't recall who mentioned Gandalf, but to you I say this:
This discussion would not apply to him anyways, as he was assuredly a paladin maybe with a hint of bard. He fought a Balor Toe-to-toe, is quite ridiculously proficient with his longsword, can heal, has a horse mount that is faster and stronger than all the other horses (the Father of Horses, as I recall). Likewise, he never used any particularily wizardly spells. Much of his "arcane magic" can be centered on his ring and staff, both of which qualify as artifacts in their own right.
Temporary hit point do not constitute healing. They're actually more closely related to damage reduction.This isn't necessary. As soon as a character recovers even 1 hit point from magical healing, they are stable. A single application of the virtue spell would do it.
From Stable Characters and Recovery, core book pg. 190:
If any sort of healing cures the dying character of even 1 point of damage, he becomes stable and stops losing hit points.
Yeah, I realized my error and deleted my post, but apparently not quickly enough. Sorry 'bout that. :(
Please leave LotR alone. Gandalf was an agent of the Valar, specifically called "Wizard" in the books. It's somewhat closer to say he was a Solar with a few Wizard levels. Anyway, he just doesn't fit into the D&D Wizard concept. Conceptually, sure, but not mechanically.
Personally, we were allowing spontanious casting of any cantrip or orison (yes, ANY, even Sorcerers) a # of times = 0-level spells allowed + casting stat mod in 3.5. Which meant an 8th lvl Sorc with a 20 CHA would get 11 cantrips a day, of any cantrip they wish. It didn't break anything or cause any major headaches.
I do not think there is any reason to panic over infinite cantrips.
yea that works I suppose I rather let them memorize the tricks they can do though. I might upgrade some, maybe slightly downgrade others or upgrade and make 1st level.
Well we always had magic-users get extra spells due to high intelligence just as clerics did for high wisdom.
So in earlier posts you try to claim others are wrong for using "non-core" stuff, and then admit you never used it...
and btw, I suggest you re-read the 3.5 magic item rules as it was very core to have infinite use items.
also the idea of stuff outside of the SRD being optional is the same as everything in the SRD being optional. A GM does not have to allow anything he/she doesnt want into the game. The fact is the complete mage was a D&D book, made by the game creators for use in the game. It was an add on to the game, not an optional rule.
Well as someone pointed out. It is not about them being over powered or even abused. It is about how lots of even minor magic can change things and more important the flavor. This isn't just about wizards. As someone mentioned paladins and detect evil. Personally I don't like anyone being able to do a magic effect at will forever.(by forever I of course mean till they feel like stopping or are forced to stop by thirst, others or what ever)
I tend to agree with that. It's nothing gamebreaking, but the concept of infinite spells (event if they are merely cantrips/orizons) means infinite resources. In other universes/settings, that may be fine. But in D&D, resources are usually limited and its a reality that both characters and players alike have to deal with on a daily basis. Its part of their world as much as it is part of our game.
Even at-will spell-like abilities usually involves some infinite power source to tap into (such as a deep-connection with outer-planes or being an outsider etc).
I tend to think everything outside DMG, PHB and MM was optional.
I hated the reserve feats though, my players agreed, though some had potential if revised.
I figured out what to do with cantrips and orisons though, character level + ability modifier seem to be a nice limit per day, something players in normal use won't often go across using.
I might enhance a few of the cantrips slightly, to make up for a little limited use and make them more fun at low level.
So, you plink that Acid Splash 4 times and it's back to crossbowing people for the rest of the day ? Not very wizardry.
I disagree, it was very wizardy to conjure acid out of thin air in the first place.
I know D&D is supposed to be high fantasy, but magic in D&D has lost much of its... magic. I understand the balance issue and the limits of diversity of the non-spellcasting classes compared to spellcasters etc. Yet between D&D high fantasy and low-magic settings, I feel like there's place for a "standard-fantasy" level where magic exists without being overdone.
lol well, I dont think it is well err.. a direct request.. I mean who would want to be a god if that is true.
more importantly, clerics should know it is their deity's power they are using and are supposedly responsible in their use, it is only borrowed power afterall.
Tastes are finicky like that.
Personally, I find the ease of, say, Teleport does a lot more to diminish the feeling of magic as magical than acid splash at-will.
I'd find it a lot more compelling and 'magical' to have easy minor magic and much more difficult big magic.
I can do surgery on D&D to make this happen, but just pointing out it's not a simple spectrum.
lol well, I dont think it is well err.. a direct request.. I mean who would want to be a god if that is true.
more importantly, clerics should know it is their deity's power they are using and are supposedly responsible in their use, it is only borrowed power afterall.
Well yeah I was exaggerating the thing a bit for the sake of the gag, but the point remains...
Any cleric in my game who is THAT willing to flout something so sacred and significant as their granted and divine gifts from their deity are going to end up losing their powers or on the wrong end of a lightning bolt when their annual deific performance review comes along. :P
And to counter that, I could see some situations where a cleric would stand there and cast water over and over and over. For example, keeping an amphibious friend alive in a desert (that whole teleport check gone wrong). Or, flying over a forest fire on a flying mount and casting create water continuously, a few dozen clerics doing that for hours could put a damper on a forest fire. Or for that matter, slow moving lava (Ala Tommy Lee Jones in Volcano) and they are trying to adjust it's flow by hardening it to form a channel or something.
Again, it comes down to the circumstances. If you're doing it to annoy the fighters guarding the castle by casting create water out of a tower window to rain down on them all day long, then your god is likely to get upset. If you're doing it to cast create water to keep the castle roofs damp so the fire arrows don't catch, then that's a different story.
So in earlier posts you try to claim others are wrong for using "non-core" stuff, and then admit you never used it...
I never said I never used house-rules, nor do I think I suggested that doing so was a bad thing. I never suggested that doing anything other than "core" was a bad thing. All I *meant* to suggest was that, and I maintain still, that the idea of a spellcaster walking out of magic school, at day 1, as a 1st level character, with infinite magic, has never been part of the "core" rules.
Now certainly we may disagree as to what is "core" or not, but for the purposes of this argument I have already explained my definition of core. I have a feeling it matches most peoples definition of core, but who knows, maybe not. I'll say it again, core, to me, is Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manuals 1-n. d20srd.org reprinted whatever open content there was but even that site contained content many people didn't consider "core" such as psionics and the Unearthed Arcana variant rules. If you are suggesting that there was a way that a character could have infinite spellcasting ability, in that context, then I'm not aware of it, which further illustrates my point that it pretty much never happened. Did some people maybe create or purchase some magic items that may have given them something LIKE infinite magic? I dunno, maybe, but I've never seen it, and still, you were not walking out of mage school going "woot woot look at my never-ending mojo!".
and btw, I suggest you re-read the 3.5 magic item rules as it was very core to have infinite use items.
Dude, I get that with some magic items you could have infinite use items. No character, in (my definition of) core rules, walked out the gate with infinite spells. Magic items cost $$$ and especially ones with unlimited uses. Could it be done? Sure, but again, it cost money and wasn't the default power level for spellcasters to always have teh boom boom.
...also the idea of stuff outside of the SRD being optional is the same as everything in the SRD being optional. A GM does not have to allow anything he/she doesnt want into the game. The fact is the complete mage was a D&D book, made by the game creators for use in the game. It was an add on to the game, not an optional rule.
Well duh. Obviously a GM can say whatever he wants. That's not my point. I'll say it... again.. the idea that characters walk around with infinite mojo is, in my humble opinion, an attempt to appeal to those who get upset that they can't bring teh boom all day long. Its sort of a tiny uptick in the fantasy/magic level, sort of a nod to the "new school" who tends to favor higher magic fantasy. Is it wrong? Of course not, that's not my point. My point is that its different, its the norm now, and it never was before. If you persist in feeling differently I don't know what else to say.