A player in my game is asking about Orisons, specifically Guidance, Resistance and Virtue.
Are the effects of these spells stackable? What's stopping a cleric from casting Virtue on a target 100 times? Or, how about casting Resistance 10 times on the party thief before disarming a trap?
Other DMs are running into similar questions. For example, 'Create Water' is another recent post. If you can create an infinite amount of water with a 0-level spell, many wilderness hazards simply disappear.
I'm tempted to rule that a target can only benefit from a single Orison or Cantrip at a time. But, what's the consensus out there?
Read the Magic section. The general rule is, no spell stacks with itself.
One interesting wrinkle about having infinite Orison spells, and the "most broken" situation I can readily imagine:
If a companion of yours is at negative hp and dying, cast Virtue on them every turn. The 1 temporary HP they are granted will offset the 1 HP they lose if they fail their Con check to stabilize. By doing this until they do, you can help to save their life even if, for some reason, you are out of healing spells and can't stabilize them with a heal check.
Even that is stretching it in terms of "broken" in that I think calling it broken is a stretch. In my experience so far the Cantrips and Orisons are well balanced with infinite use in mind.
If a companion of yours is at negative hp and dying, cast Virtue on them every turn. The 1 temporary HP they are granted will offset the 1 HP they lose if they fail their Con check to stabilize. By doing this until they do, you can help to save their life even if, for some reason, you are out of healing spells and can't stabilize them with a heal check.
In my opinion this is not broken, as it is the equivalent of a patient receiving continuous care from a healer.
Besides, keeping a character alive is not broken.Killing the PCs is not the point of the game.
Radu: Of course, there's stabilize...
Which is a lot easier.
Radu: Of course, there's stabilize...
Which is a lot easier.
Absolutely true, but the OP was asking about Virtue, Guidance, and Resistance.
I actually had exactly that virtue-until-stable situation come up recently, actually. Nothing seemed wrong with it. I mean, it ate every one of the cleric's actions. Not something you can really do in-combat!
If a companion of yours is at negative hp and dying, cast Virtue on them every turn. The 1 temporary HP they are granted will offset the 1 HP they lose if they fail their Con check to stabilize. By doing this until they do, you can help to save their life even if, for some reason, you are out of healing spells and can't stabilize them with a heal check.
Heh, not only is that cool I can see players yelling "clear!" before doing it Evey round to they stabilize :)
Now if there was only an electrical version of acid splash, we could cross streams with the other cantrip thread...
Now if there was only an electrical version of acid splash, we could cross streams with the other cantrip thread...
NEVER cross the streams!
NEVER cross the streams!Now if there was only an electrical version of acid splash, we could cross streams with the other cantrip thread...
Except when battling destructive forces the likes of which the world hasn't seen for ages. So, uh, no crossing the streams until 20th level.
well 2 per level can be an issue. Kinda why I houserule everyone has at lest 4/level. It's good to take skills
The ability of create water in infinite amounts indeed changes the game.
The difference is that a cleric can now take an entire army through the desert, not just a party of adventurers as in older versions of the game.
Does that break the game? I think not. Deserts just aren't real barriers for armies any more and oasises (is that the correct plural?) aren't nearly as important as in the real world.
I can's say that I particularly like these implications though.
The ability of create water in infinite amounts indeed changes the game.
The difference is that a cleric can now take an entire army through the desert, not just a party of adventurers as in older versions of the game.
Does that break the game? I think not. Deserts just aren't real barriers for armies any more and oasises (is that the correct plural?) aren't nearly as important as in the real world.
I can's say that I particularly like these implications though.
I've generally found that bags of holding do the same thing anyhow, not to mention items of "create food/water" x/day.
Bags of holding are significantly harder to come by than lvl 1 clerics. And they have a weight limit (1500 lb. fot the largest version), which further reduces their effectiveness as water storage.
Say a warrior in the desert needs 5 lb. of water a day (and that is a low low estimate) - than the largest bag of holding can sustain 300 warriors one day in the desert.
Or 30 warriors 10 days.
So they aren't nearly as useful as the lvl 1 cleric who generates 74 litres (or 165 lb.) of water PER MINUTE. And can hardly be used to sustain an entire army of several hundred or thousand individuals in a desert.
The ability of create water in infinite amounts indeed changes the game.
The difference is that a cleric can now take an entire army through the desert, not just a party of adventurers as in older versions of the game.
Does that break the game? I think not. Deserts just aren't real barriers for armies any more and oasises (is that the correct plural?) aren't nearly as important as in the real world.
I can's say that I particularly like these implications though.
This is nothing new. Anyone who can afford to raise an army can afford a decanter of endless water, which can produce 432,000 gallons of water per day. That's enough for an army of ~400,000 men, even in a desert (64 ounces, or half a gallon, per day is the usual recommended amount, so doubling that for marching through a desert seems fair).
This is nothing new. Anyone who can afford to raise an army can afford a decanter of endless water, which can produce 432,000 gallons of water per day. That's enough for an army of ~400,000 men, even in a desert (64 ounces, or half a gallon, per day is the usual recommended amount, so doubling that for marching through a desert seems fair).
Ok, thats right.
I would challenge the ~400,000 though. It´s a not easy to have the decanter running all day long. And in its "geysir mode" a lot of water is probably wasted. Lastly, you would have to develop pretty sophisticated logistics to get the water from the bottle to each and every member of a several 100,000 men army.
Thats nitpicking, of course.
Well if you can afford a decanter of endless water then you can probably afford a cleric to stoneshape you some aqueducts or a wizard to fabricate them out of the sand.
If you organized an army I'm sure you'd probably have more then one 1st level cleric for every 50 men and that would be pretty easy for them to provide the water rations for. That's only 5 minutes worth of work two or three times a day to refil their water bags, if you're giving it to them one at a time.
I'd be more concerned about feeding that army myself.
Most of the time, magic would change a lot of things from the way they work in reality (obviously). Most of the time, that gets pretty much ignored in-game. As an example, mediaeval castles are not planned to deflect aerial warfare, of course, so dragons or even flying wizards with protection from arrows active attacking such a castle would wreak serious havoc to it before being brought down. But almost no castle layout in any fantasy game takes this into consideration.
So, having a cleric producing near-infinite (2 gallon per level per round) amounts of water will imply changes to the game world, yes. But what are the consequences of that? In a village of, say, two hundred souls, a 1st level cleric would have to cast that spell a hundred times to fulfill the basic water needs of the community (if a gallon a day is sufficient for a human, which sounds about right). Animals? Right, there go another 100 castings. If you are in an area in the need of irrigation, poor cleric better sees that he does not get hoarse... Of course, quite some crafts are in need of water, like pottery andf smithing. At that point, it gets impractical to rely solely on the cleric.
That spell is probably more like an emergency water source, like the water trucks seen in real-world disaster areas. It can provide water if the local wells are fouled, but not as a matter of course. The same goes for the army-in-the-desert example.
How many clerics are there, anyway? I seem to recall that at most one percent of the population has an adventuring class. Of these, most again are fighters. Judging from that, if there is one cleric for every 500 people in any given population, it is probably about right. This one cleric probably has other things to do than casting that spell virtually all day long.
Pretty much the same goes for the castle example - dragons and especially wizards do other things than attacking castles or villages most of the time. That is not to say it never happens, but when it happens, it calls out for an adventure anyway.
I would not worry overmuch about that orizon.
Stefan
That were some interesting thoughts, thanks for sharing.
In the DMG p. 139, there is a sample 200 person hamlet. There are usually one 3rd level cleric and 2 1st level clerics.
So about 8x your estimate. PC classes are not rare in the default D&D setting.
As for the decanter of endless water... it costs 9000 gp. That's... nothing.
Houses cost 1000 to 5000 gp, a Keep costs 150,000 gp... if we're talking about urban planning, it'd be easy to set up decanters of endless water wherever you need convenient fresh water.
If you can build roads, houses, and any fortifications, a decanter is easy.
In the DMG p. 139, there is a sample 200 person hamlet. There are usually one 3rd level cleric and 2 1st level clerics.
So about 8x your estimate. PC classes are not rare in the default D&D setting.
Right, you got me there. There are 13 PC-class NPCs in that example, so we are looking at something like 5-7 percent of any given population, with fighters and thieves getting the lions share.
Still, the clerics - no matter how many there are - will not spend their time producing water if the villagers can just use a well or a stream.
As for the decanter of endless water... it costs 9000 gp. That's... nothing.Houses cost 1000 to 5000 gp, a Keep costs 150,000 gp... if we're talking about urban planning, it'd be easy to set up decanters of endless water wherever you need convenient fresh water.
If you can build roads, houses, and any fortifications, a decanter is easy.
Money-wise, yes. But you need a 9rd level spell caster with the wondrous item creation feat and access to the control water spell willing to build it for you. These requirements will ensure that this decanter will not be a common feature in urban planning. Building a keep requires droves of unskilled laborers, which are cheap and easy to get. A village of 2000-5000 inhabitants has a 1 in 6 chance of having a cleric or a druid of the required level. A small city will probably have at least one caster of the required level. (according to the city building rules mentioned above). They still need the feat. A decanter might be used in one special place, like the fountain before the palace of the local ruler, but not as a common everyday household appliance.
What I´m saying is no matter how many spellcasters are there in a setting, it will still not be commonplace to use magic for everyday needs, as they still will be rare. Neither spells nor magic items are mass produced like in todays industry. Which keeps their impact much less than might be anticipated.
Stefan
I disagree. If there is a clear and sustained need, why wouldn't the civic leaders just send someone to the Great City to commission one?
Why wouldn't a king, responsible for the well-being of his kingdom, use some of his taxes to outfit at least the larger communities with reliable water? He's building towers and keeps and so forth for the defense of the city, and presumably has mages and clerics in his employ for magical warfare.
As for common everyday household appliance... sure, but a single device that can sustain hundreds or thousands of people is somewhat of a different category.
As for keeps... uh. Yes, there are unskilled laborers hauling, but you also need skilled masons and architects. Probably not 9th level, but still.
It is almost precisely the reasons cited in the thread above that I maintain relatively low- to mid-level magic game worlds. The one and only high-magic world that I have developed had flying carriages, a Fire Elemental in every stove, and eventually suffered a mass rebellion by all the confined spirits, elementals, demons, and constructs that the empire used to sustain itself.
As to the mention about castles and towns that don't have defenses against airborne opponents, well, in a world where giant lizards fly through the air, cast spells, and breath gouts of elemental death and doom, your best bet is to RUN, not see if you can hit it in the chest with a ballista bolt.
Just sayin'. ;)
I've never had a problem with the idea that my wizard would eventually run out of mojo. He keeps a staff and dagger just in case that happens. Do I want him to use them? Hell to the no. But it helps my suspension of disbelief to imagine that he can run out of mojo then have to resort to fending off goblins with his gnarled staff or trusty dagger he always keeps just-in-case.
The idea of trying to make sure a spellcaster always has magic options is, to me, another example of what I call the "creeping wussification" of D&D. The idea is that if something 'makes people sad' then that thing should be gotten rid of. Running out of magic 'makes people sad' so bye-bye. Counting every other diagonal square as two squares makes people sad, so, in 4E at least, bye-bye. Running out of hit points 'makes people sad' so, in 4E at least, hello healing surges, bye-bye sad boo hoo times.
Appealing to people who cry about running out of spells is kinda lame but oh well, there it is. In my campaigns we stick with the 3.5 cantrip/orison rules. If you run out you run out. So sorry.
That may sound harsh but a year ago it was the norm and people weren't all freaking out about it, nor were they discussing infinite create water or acid splash scenarios. Just go back to 3.5 rules and all that silliness goes away.
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This is nothing new. Anyone who can afford to raise an army can afford a decanter of endless water, which can produce 432,000 gallons of water per day. That's enough for an army of ~400,000 men, even in a desert (64 ounces, or half a gallon, per day is the usual recommended amount, so doubling that for marching through a desert seems fair).
Half gallon a day in the desert? Military units today allocate about 4 gallons of water per soldier per day for drinking if work is being done all day under normal conditions.
A year ago I wasn't freaking out about it because Complete Mage added Reserve feats and I could always just get a wand of MM or some other relatively continuous magic.
As for wussification... well, when I was a kid the fantasy I read didn't have mages pop their spellwad and then hobble around like idiots.
No, if you were a mage, YOU WERE A MAGE, and it was an inherent utter part of what you did. Sure, maybe you can't pull down the heavens all the time, but the idea of wandering around going 'welp, out of spells, guess I'll throw rocks at lizardmen' was ludicrous.
A year ago I wasn't freaking out about it because Complete Mage added Reserve feats and I could always just get a wand of MM or some other relatively continuous magic.
As for wussification... well, when I was a kid the fantasy I read didn't have mages pop their spellwad and then hobble around like idiots.
No, if you were a mage, YOU WERE A MAGE, and it was an inherent utter part of what you did. Sure, maybe you can't pull down the heavens all the time, but the idea of wandering around going 'welp, out of spells, guess I'll throw rocks at lizardmen' was ludicrous.
While it may seem ludicrous, it has been how D&D worked for ummm about 35 years now? Only in the last ummm 4 months has a version of D&D (not counting 4E mind you) had a concept of never-running-out-magic.
Except Reserve Feats and magic items and...
It's not that new, really.
I think that this will all become relevant when we get Kingmaker.
Except Reserve Feats...
A bolted on option to appeal to people who like that sort of thing. Not "core" however. Before you ask, by core I mean, in the Player's Handbook or SRD.
and magic items and...
A few give extra spells but I am not familiar with any "core" (there's that word again) items that give infinite uses of spells per day. Even if there are, they are again, an option.
I don't see a few random magic items and a relatively recent, completely optional feat as being the same as "everyone gets infinite magic mojo every day now". Maybe you do, so meh whatever.
It's not that new, really.
Yeah, it kind of is. Especially to someone who's been playing since around 1980.
Half gallon a day in the desert? Military units today allocate about 4 gallons of water per soldier per day for drinking if work is being done all day under normal conditions.
This is nothing new. Anyone who can afford to raise an army can afford a decanter of endless water, which can produce 432,000 gallons of water per day. That's enough for an army of ~400,000 men, even in a desert (64 ounces, or half a gallon, per day is the usual recommended amount, so doubling that for marching through a desert seems fair).
Which is why I (it wasn't Hyla that said that, it was me) said that one gallon per day is fair. Remember that in D&D you're assumed to only be actually traveling for 8 hours every day, and walking (even in the desert) is significantly less draining and dehydrating than "working" (presumably meaning construction or combat or other high-stress, high-energy activities). Also, they'd be traveling at night and resting during the day, at least if their leader wasn't brain-dead.
EDIT: And can we keep the "You're all having badwrongfun!" out of this, please? I'm talking to you, jreyst. You don't like it. Fine. Don't tell us we're pansy wusses if we do, unless of course your intent is to troll and start flame wars.
Yeah, it kind of is. Especially to someone who's been playing since around 1980.
When your Magic User cast his single spell and spent the rest of the adventure lobbing darts...I miss those days...
A year ago I wasn't freaking out about it because Complete Mage added Reserve feats and I could always just get a wand of MM or some other relatively continuous magic.
As for wussification... well, when I was a kid the fantasy I read didn't have mages pop their spellwad and then hobble around like idiots.
No, if you were a mage, YOU WERE A MAGE, and it was an inherent utter part of what you did. Sure, maybe you can't pull down the heavens all the time, but the idea of wandering around going 'welp, out of spells, guess I'll throw rocks at lizardmen' was ludicrous.
Quick Thread Jack --- Those Reserve Feats Balanced For PF play or not?
Quick Thread Jack --- Those Reserve Feats Balanced For PF play or not?
Yes. They're actually slightly less valuable in PF because they're intended to fill the same basic hole that infinite orisons/cantrips do. They fill that hole differently and more powerfully, but the existence of infinite-cast spells does reduce their usefulness slightly. In other words, they're weaker than in 3.5, so if you had no problem with them in 3.5, you'll have no problem with them in PF :)
Well if you can afford a decanter of endless water then you can probably afford a cleric to stoneshape you some aqueducts or a wizard to fabricate them out of the sand.
If you organized an army I'm sure you'd probably have more then one 1st level cleric for every 50 men and that would be pretty easy for them to provide the water rations for. That's only 5 minutes worth of work two or three times a day to refil their water bags, if you're giving it to them one at a time.
I'd be more concerned about feeding that army myself.
The General who leads his army throught the desert and relies on a decanter of endless water as his only source of water should be most concerned about thieves.
Steal or destroy that thing, and his army is doomed.
Thank you Zurai.
And the Capt. is right about that ><
Major Cripple upon the Captains army ><. Err, General's, sorry.
When your Magic User cast his single spell and spent the rest of the adventure lobbing darts...I miss those days...
Well we always had magic-users get extra spells due to high intelligence just as clerics did for high wisdom. However, in the best case scenario that generally meant that instead of 1 1st level spell per day, you had 4. Certainly more powerful, and certainly a house rule, but still pretty much the same. Once you cast 4 spells you resorted to your darts or staff. You hid in the middle, between the meat-shields and constantly counseled "its time to rest!" while said meat-shields made disparaging comments about the color and fabric your undergarments were made of, all the while merrily cutting the flesh off the bodies of your enemies.
Yes, I did enjoy those days.
When your Magic User cast his single spell and spent the rest of the adventure lobbing darts...I miss those days...Well we always had magic-users get extra spells due to high intelligence just as clerics did for high wisdom. However, in the best case scenario that generally meant that instead of 1 1st level spell per day, you had 4. Certainly more powerful, and certainly a house rule, but still pretty much the same. Once you cast 4 spells you resorted to your darts or staff. You hid in the middle, between the meat-shields and constantly counseled "its time to rest!" while said meat-shields made disparaging comments about the color and fabric your undergarments were made of, all the while merrily cutting the flesh off the bodies of your enemies.
Yes, I did enjoy those days.
These young whipper-snappers don't know when they are well off...every class getting multiple attacks...death doesn't actually mean death but a minor set back...doing more than 20hps of damage with a longsword...hitting high levels in a matter of months...
*mutters and lights pipe*
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Half gallon a day in the desert? Military units today allocate about 4 gallons of water per soldier per day for drinking if work is being done all day under normal conditions.
This is nothing new. Anyone who can afford to raise an army can afford a decanter of endless water, which can produce 432,000 gallons of water per day. That's enough for an army of ~400,000 men, even in a desert (64 ounces, or half a gallon, per day is the usual recommended amount, so doubling that for marching through a desert seems fair).
And, in the case of extreme heat, and especially extreme humidity, that jumps to minimal work, loosen any tight clothing, keep in the shade as much as possible...and one gallon per hour per soldier to maintain healthy hydration. Just my two cents from personal experience. Heat Cat 5 is nothing to sneeze at, when its so hot and humid that you can experience severe heat exhaustion from just stepping out of the barracks, never mind trying to do any sort of labor. Something to think about.
A bolted on option to appeal to people who like that sort of thing. Not "core" however. Before you ask, by core I mean, in the Player's Handbook or SRD.
It's still 'D&D,' and part of the experience.
and magic items and...A few give extra spells but I am not familiar with any "core" (there's that word again) items that give infinite uses of spells per day. Even if there are, they are again, an option.
Now you're moving the freakin' goalposts. There's a system for making magic items, and continual magic missile is a pretty obvious, simple option for anyone who wants it. Same with continual cantrips... I think there's a listed item for constant 'mage hand,' for example.
I don't see a few random magic items and a relatively recent, completely optional feat as being the same as "everyone gets infinite magic mojo every day now". Maybe you do, so meh whatever.
Whatever, but you're still wrong that this is completely new to D&D.
Yeah, it kind of is. Especially to someone who's been playing since around 1980.
And I phrased that last because of this attempt to silence by authority.
It's still 'D&D,' and part of the experience.
My point was that it was not core, or ingrained in every spellcaster, and characters were, by default, *not* infinite casters.
Now you're moving the freakin' goalposts. There's a system for making magic items, and continual magic missile is a pretty obvious, simple option for anyone who wants it. Same with continual cantrips... I think there's a listed item for constant 'mage hand,' for example.
Whoa, getting kinda excited here. My point, and I'll make it again, is that it was never "core" or part of a default character. A player could, with permission from his DM, maybe, get some feats from splatbooks that gave him similar abilities. That doesn't mean it was there all along, or that its "part of the core game experience" or anything. I don't know anyone who has used any such feats or magic items and I've played 3.x since the beginning* in multiple groups with many different players. Obviously I'm not saying no one has done it, merely suggesting its not the default.
*Not an attempt to silence by authority lol.
And I phrased that last because of this attempt to silence by authority.
I wasn't attempting to silence by authority. I was simply putting the recentness of this never-ending magic idea in context of the age of the game. In the big picture, having core spellcasters be able to cast anything, an infinite number of times per day, is only as recent as 4E (and now Pathfinder). When you consider how long 4E has been out compared to the entire lifetime of the game, I find it hard to believe you can't consider that a "recent development". However, to each his own. If you prefer neverending mojo, go to town, you got your way. PF gives it to you and so does 4E so you're golden either way.
I'll just keep doing it the pre-4E/PF way, as I prefer.
I just find it odd to point to anything as a 'recent development' when so many games and houserules and stuff has gone on since Chainmail.
Yes, it's somewhat new to core default by-the-book D&D, but the idea of it being a strange recent idea at all threw me for a loop.
Hrmm. With all the casters I've played I'm not sure I've actually used more then two days worth cantrips. Except for Detect Magic.
Seriously though, these are cantrips. I'd like to know how a wizard can save the day with infinite cantrips in any encounter above a CR 2. Even the drought scenario (which we've talked about being very sketchy) is gonna have the rest of the PC's smacking him on the back of the head so they can follow the giant glowing quest sign.
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Hrmm. With all the casters I've played I'm not sure I've actually used more then two days worth cantrips. Except for Detect Magic.
Seriously though, these are cantrips. I'd like to know how a wizard can save the day with infinite cantrips in any encounter above a CR 2. Even the drought scenario (which we've talked about being very sketchy) is gonna have the rest of the PC's smacking him on the back of the head so they can follow the giant glowing quest sign.
For me it is not about saving the day. It just goes against my preferred view of magic. Which is magic is powerful but limited resource. It was a big reason i don't like other games where magic never runs out. It is not gaming breaking how it is, just rubs me the wrong way is all and it to me really can break any type of low magic feel for a setting. If cantrips never run out. Makes things like droughts or other problems less of a factor unless spell casters are pretty rare.
To put this in some perspective....
We have the tale of Moses striking the rock and producing the water to fill the jugs of the ENTIRE nation of Israel during the wandering. That qualifies as miraculous, that's the sort of thing you want your PC cleric to be able to think about doing. When you talk of 400,000 gallons of water...
Let's do some math...
400,000/8 the amount of water you want created divided by the amount a per level created by a cleric. At first level that's 50,000 castings at 6 seconds per cast or 83 hrs of casting. He's going to lose his voice before he gets all that casting done. Even a 5th level cleric at 40 gallons per cast is looking at 10,000 casts to fill that order. Only about 17 hrs of casting but still long enough to make him have difficulty casting anything with verbal requirements for the next couple of days. Even at 20th level you are looking at over 4 hrs of casting. Infinite it might be, but no one is going to attempt that and not face some serious consquences.
In order to irrigate a town in the desert you would be looking at millions of gallons, not hundreds of thousands. You would need an army of clerics to achieve that. Keep in mind that not every follower working in the shrine/temple/church is an actual cleric. Clerics are a hero class, the people that "get things done" everyone else are the people that make sure the wheels keep rolling when the heroes aren't there.
The system itself is not broken, but breakable ... yes. Since most of the spells don't stack, and the amount of damage created for the most part is minimal (1d3 is about 2 pts per round, your wizard/sorcerer is better off trying to hit something with his staff.) If there is one spell to worry about... Mending. How much damage to the economy could that spell cause?