Dessic's page

I am glad that LoneWolf treats me as a criminal and I have to pay to prove otherwise. Also, I do not buy a vehicle and the dealer puts limitations as to where I can buy it or to whom service can be accomplished.

You also don't have the ability to make an infinite number of copies of the car you bought for free. Terrible analogy.

Gurg, a Gully Dwarf Bard. His Charisma was 16, his Intelligence was 6 or 7, his Wisdom not much higher. Gurg was convinced that he carried a magic mirror that was home to a very handsome dwarf who helped persuade Gurg to do heroic things.

Being a Bard, Gurg of course sang all of his spells (in a cheerful shrieking falsetto no less.) The tune was always the same, and the lyrics followed a fairly predictable pattern.

Expeditious Retreat: "This is the Running Song! You no catch me now!"
Cure (whatever) Wounds: "This is the Healing Song! You feeling better now!"
Eagle's Splendor: "This is the Pretty Song! You like me better now!"
Invisibility: "This is the Hiding Song! You no see me now!" (somehow, the enemy always found him...)

I've never had a problem with the idea that my wizard would eventually run out of mojo.

But Paladins could Detect Evil at will as early as 2nd Edition. The guys for whom magic was EVERYTHING? Tough luck, chump.

Looks good. I would merely suggest that Gliding can only be done when the Gargoyle has room to fully spread its wings, requiring a space at least 10' wide. So a Gargoyle can't glide to negate falling damage in a 5'x5' shaft (not counting Slow Fall for a Gargoyle Monk), but could do so in a 5'x10' shaft.

Edit: Hmm, how would a Gargoyle Monk's unarmed attacks work?

Hm, Penetrating Claws might be a bit much... Stone has a Hardness of only 8, so I could see them ignoring up to hardness 10, but I don't recall them slicing through iron doors or anything, let alone mithral or adamantium objects.

Instead of the straight +5 bonus to Climb, I might reduce it to +2, but also make Climb a class skill for any Gargoyle, or give them Skill Focus (Climb) as a bonus feat.

Agreed, I don't think any of the Gargoyles would be considered Small as far as the Pathfinder rules go. Goliath, Hudson, and Broadway were on the large end of the Medium size category, and Lexington and Bronx were on the small end.

KnightErrantJR wrote:

I'd rule that they can move their movement rate in a straight line or down, and they have the effect of a Feather Fall on themselves so long as they have their wings unimpeded.

I never saw the cartoon. How do they get back up again?

They climbed mostly. A racial bonus to Climb checks would be appropriate.

Legora wrote:

Thoughts/Comments?

Not bad. I'd add some lingo that poisons and diseases are cured by stone sleep as well (but not curses!).

If you were to insert these gargoyles into a setting like New York (as they are in the cartoon) I'd give them a bonus to Intimidate and make Stone Sleep last from sunset to sunrise.

Vice versa, actually, since the Gargoyles were nocturnal.

He invested 3 out of 5 feats on things that don't improve his damage per round (at least in this test). Not to mention short-changing himself by one feat for not being a human (or half-elf, for that matter, since he ended up taking Skill Focus).

True, but there aren't many other feat options to improve damage at 10th level. A half elf could get nearly the same Intimidate check (only losing the +2 racial bonus) plus take Improved Critical at 9th level, but as we've seen wouldn't be a huge boost.

Now, 11th level would be significant since the rage boost to STR and CON go up to +6, and the Barb could also take Critical Focus, which will mean an even greater likelihood of critting.

Dessic wrote:

If I'm doing the math correctly, she has an average DPR of 50.22 for a full attack when raging and using Power Attack.

Ouch. I knew the Barbarian wasn't going to look great, but that's still lower than I expected.

Wonder how much Improved Crit might help? I'll look at the numbers. Is the skill focus really necessary? He's pretty good at intimidation anyways...

P.S.: I just added Improved Crit (to raging/power attacking) and came up with 50.22 exactly. Looks like you used a .20 crit modifier for your crit calculations. Without improved crit you should use .10.

The correct DPR I believe for your build is 46.04. Wow. That's definitely less than I was expecting. More than 20 less than Falchion Fred.

Hmmm...speaking of Falchion...nope, 51.77 with improved crit, no big diff.

I knew the barbarian would be behind the fighter, but that's a bigger difference than I was expecting. I was thinking maybe 60 DPR.

Is there anything we can do to pick up the damage a bit more?

No, I'm using .1 as my crit multiplier... Not sure where we're diverging. Maybe average damage, but even adjusting that I'm not coming up with the same numbers as you are.

The damage formula is h(d+s)+tchd.

h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.
s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). Average damage is again assumed.
t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3.

With a target AC of 24, someone with a +19 to-hit will miss only on a 1-4 out of 20, giving an 80% chance to hit (.8). A +14 to-hit means a miss on a 1-9 out of 20, which drops your chance to hit down to 55% (.55).

Damage is 2d6+24. I was calculating average damage to be 31 (7+24), but even running through it with a 30.5 or 30 average damage the numbers weren't matching yours. I was doubling all damage on criticals, which only happened on a 19 or 20 (a 10% chance, or .1 multiplier).

With an average damage of 31, my calculations looked like this:

h(d+s)+ tchd + h(d+s)+tchd = DPR
.8(31) + (.1)(1)(.8)(62) + .55(31) + (.1)(1)(.55)(62) = DPR
24.8 + 4.96 + 17.05 + 3.41 = 50.22

(Edit: I think I got it. Don't double the damage automatically... 46.485 is what I get now.)

Throwing a Barbarian into the mix.

If I'm doing the math correctly, she has an average DPR of 50.22 for a full attack when raging and using Power Attack. This would go up by 3.63 DPR if she took the Animal Fury rage power for the bite attack. Powerful Blow would let Barbara add +3 to one damage roll, and Surprise Accuracy would let her add +3 to one to-hit roll, but since she could only do either ability once per rage, I didn't bother taking them.

Is my math correct?

the main problem is they would have to spend several feats to do this, and they do not get any bonus on that... It's not a bad build, but because of it, you would leave several good (must have) options behind, like cleave and such.

"Must haves" seem pretty subjective based on what you're trying to achieve. I'm sure someone could make a barbarian that causes more sheer pain, but this is more of a Controllerbarian, a guy who can scatter foes, watch them trample each other to get away, and then can kick their dropped weapons and magic items back towards his allies. And the few people who don't run away screaming get an angry greatsword to the face as a reward.

What kind of stats are you using? That looks like "roll 3d6 a hundred times and keep the best six."

Hm, let me crank it down to the elite array and see what we get.

Going down to a CHA of 8 didn't really hurt. And you could swap the starting STR and CON ability scores around, but I didn't want to reduce her hit points. With how easy it is for this barbarian to make people Shaken, you could easily go without Guarded Stance for some other rage power if you wanted, maybe increased DR instead. And yeah, that should have been the Intimidating Prowess feat.

Hmm, well here's a 10th level barb I built fairly quickly. She can deliver the pain as well as make nearly anything near her level shaken and possibly panicked.

Fighters might outdamage barbarians, but that doesn't mean Barbarians are bad at damage. Also a panicked foe doesn't fight back, and that helps keep the entire party safer.

Barbs can also be a decent debuffer to help their survival rate. A half orc Barbarian who makes a small effort to crank up Intimidate and combine that with Dazzling Display and Terrifying Howl won't have many opponents to face. Just getting your opponent Shaken negates the AC penalty for raging.

Tim4488 wrote:

Disciple of Sakura wrote:

Dessic wrote:

Skill Supremacy

You have become supremely adept at a given skill.

Prerequisite: Skill Mastery

Benefit: You may take 10 with the selected skill even when immediate danger or distractions would normally prevent it.

Normal: You may take 10 only when your character is not in immediate danger or distracted.

Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat, it must apply to a new skill with which you already have Skill Mastery.

Isn't that what skill mastery already does?

Yes, but this feat would allow characters with Skill Mastery to apply it to more, different skills. A good idea, I like it a lot.

Read the proposed feat's "Special" entry again. It only applies to skills that you already have Skill Mastery with. As the feat only gives you the benefit of skill mastery to a skill you already have skill mastery with, it doesn't actually do anything as written.

Oops, replace all instances of "Skill Mastery" with "Skill Focus." This would allow any character to essentially gain Skill Mastery with a single skill for which they also took Skill Focus.

Skill Supremacy
You have become supremely adept at a given skill.

Prerequisite: Skill Mastery

Benefit: You may take 10 with the selected skill even when immediate danger or distractions would normally prevent it.

Normal: You may take 10 only when your character is not in immediate danger or distracted.

Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat, it must apply to a new skill with which you already have Skill Mastery.

How does a 1st level Half Orc Sorcerer with a 10 Wisdom wind up with a +4 Perception check? Perception is not a class skill for Sorcerers, and your first level feat isn't Skill Focus.

(Edit): Oh duh, Draconic bloodline...

Interesting guide. Under the Ki pool info, what would be the color coding of the "Increase speed by 20 for one round" ability? From the text I am guessing orange.

I still feel kicking it in at 3rd would be ideal, due to everybody else who does melee using bigger and better weapons with more strength, however, level 6 is a decent spot to hit, granting a +2 bonus.

It works out well :)

(I agree 1/2 monk level is a bit much given the number of attacks they tend to throw down when they get a full attack. I'm not afraid of it in my games, but I can see alot more people not using it if it were 1/2 rather than 1/3.)

One possibility would be to make it 1 plus 1/3 (rather like the 3.5 feat progression actually) rather than delay all the stuff (except the ability to use it on non-monk weapons, that's a good delay) you could have it all hit at level 1 and then simply scale.

Yeah, it still needs tweaking, and I was doing it in my previous post. :/ After thinking about it, I don't know how appropriate it is for a monk to suddenly get +4 to hit and damage with any weapon. It might make more sense for that to happen gradually, like a fighter's weapon mastery ability. So I scrapped it. Monks could also do with a few more ki points, so I added that and a saving throw and Stunning Fist boost in instead. 1 + 1/3 seems like a good idea, too, but then I'd want to start everything from 1st level, and I think Monks get enough to start out in the early levels.

Warrior's Insight As Monks gain experience, they become better able to exploit weak points in their opponent's defenses and improve their ability to avoid attacks. Monks can add an Insight bonus to a variety of attacks and skill checks equal to 1/3 their total monk level rounded down, to a maximum bonus equal to their Wisdom modifier. At every 3rd Monk level they are able to add this bonus to more skills and abilities.

• A 3rd level Monk can add this bonus to all Acrobatics and Escape Artist checks.
  
• A 6th level Monk can add this bonus to attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and monk special weapons only. He also gains additional ki pool points equivalent to this bonus.
  
• A 9th level Monk can add this bonus to his CMB. He now also treats opponents who are larger than the monk as one size category smaller when attempting a Combat Maneuver against them.
  
• A 12th level Monk can add this bonus to the DC to resist the Monk's Stunning Fist attacks. Also, Stunning Fist attacks can be delivered when attacking with monk special weapons.
  
• A 15th level Monk can add this bonus to his CMD. He now also treats opponents who are larger than the Monk as two size categories smaller when attempting a Combat Maneuver against them.
  
• An 18th level Monk can add this bonus to his saving throws.

(Edit: Maybe swap 15th and 18th level ability?)

It's good Dessic, but I think the placement is wrong. I would suggest placing damage down at level 3 with attack (or possibly even bumping attack to level 6. Low levels Monk's attack bonuses are decent, it's the damage that they struggle with, especially before their unarmed strikes really kick in.)

If I get the chance I'll reallign it in a while, see what it looks like then.

How about this then?

Warrior's Insight As Monks gain experience, they become better able to exploit weak points in their opponent's defenses and improve their ability to avoid attacks. Monks can add an Insight bonus to a variety of attacks and skill checks equal to 1/3 their total monk level rounded down, to a maximum bonus equal to their Wisdom modifier. At every 3rd Monk level they are able to add this bonus to more skills and abilities.

• A 3rd level Monk can add this bonus to all Acrobatics and Escape Artist checks.
  
• A 6th level Monk can add this bonus to attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and monk special weapons only. He also gains additional ki pool points equivalent to this bonus.
  
• A 9th level Monk can add this bonus to his CMB. He now also treats opponents who are larger than the monk as one size category smaller when attempting a Combat Maneuver against them.
  
• A 12th level Monk can add this bonus to the DC to resist the Monk's Stunning Fist attacks. Also, Stunning Fist attacks can be delivered when attacking with monk special weapons.
  
• A 15th level Monk can add this bonus to his CMD. He now also treats opponents who are larger than the Monk as two size categories smaller when attempting a Combat Maneuver against them.
  
• An 18th level Monk can add this bonus to his saving throws.

(Edited to make a couple of changes.)

Something like this would more than make up for any areas in which the Monk is lacking

Warrior's Insight As a Monk gains experience, they become better able to exploit weak points in their opponent's defenses and improve their ability to avoid attacks. A Monk can add an Insight bonus to a variety of attacks and skill checks equal to 1/3 their total monk level rounded down, to a maximum bonus equal to their Wisdom modifier. At every 3rd Monk level they are able to add this bonus to more skills and abilities.

• A 3rd level Monk can add this bonus to attack rolls with unarmed attacks and monk special weapons only.

• A 6th level Monk can add this bonus to all Acrobatics and Escape Artist checks.

• A 9th level Monk can add this bonus to his CMB. He now also treats opponents who are larger than the monk as one size category smaller when attempting a Combat Maneuver against them.

• A 12th level Monk can add this bonus to his attack rolls with any weapon, and to their damage rolls with unarmed attacks and monk special weapons only. This replaces the ability gained at level 3.

• A 15th level Monk can add this bonus to his CMD. He now also treats opponents who are larger than the Monk as two size categories smaller when attempting a Combat Maneuver against them.

• An 18th level Monk can add this bonus to damage rolls with all weapons.

Tried a Monk with a more STR oriented build, 25-point buy, 82000gp of equipment.

I specifically wanted to avoid getting a Holy item to bypass the Bebelith's DR, as that's something any character could do. The idea is to illustrate what a Monk could do strategically as well as tactically. Against a Bebelith, this Monk would be a Power Attacking, Vital Striking, Spring Attacking pain in the neck. He has a high enough Acrobatics modifier and movement rate to be able to tumble in and out of the Bebelith's threatened area every round if he needs to, and if he fails his check (only on a 3 or less) his AC will be at least 31 vs. AoO against other targets who threaten the area he may move in. Wind Stance provides a 20% miss chance against any ranged attacks, like the Bebelith's Web ability. A Power Attacked Vital Strike would have as low as a +15 to-hit bonus and do as much as 2d6+14 dmg. And if the monk has any brains, he'll always move into a spot where he flanks if possible to keep his to-hit as high as possible.

And since this monk will never be flanking the Bebelith when any other party member gets his chance to attack, any rogue would have to rely on someone else to be a flanking buddy.

Prince That Howls wrote:

And why don't you show me a 11th level melee build that would do any better solo.

I linked one up the page. The rogue, TWF weak offhand Boots of Speed Jack, from the other thread, when advanced one level, does about 60 damage per round to a bebilith, despite the DR, as long as it has a flanker, while being able to absorb the damage it takes in that time if the bebilith focuses on him.

Someone who needs a flanker isn't really a good example of doing better 'solo.'

Dessic wrote:

A Man In Black wrote:

So if the enemy has a good fort save, what does it do?

Watches itself get disarmed?

The bebilith. What does your monk do to a bebilith? You were the one who suggested it. Now, your monk can't hurt it and thus can't stun it, can't trip it save on a 20, obviously can't disarm it...

...so what can it do to "harass" this bebilith? I challenged you with this:

Quote:

Show me this AC 30 level 11 monk who can threaten a bebilith.

You offered me a monk who can't even affect a bebilith.

The same way any other melee character would have to; get a magical weapon with a good alignment or have a cleric cast Align Weapon on a weapon you carry.

Care to show me a fighter who wouldn't have his armor ripped to shreds trying to fight a Bebelith?

first of all, why do you have TWF? and how did you get +17 to hit? i see +9 bab, +4 dex, +1 amulet, +1 weapon focus for +15. am i missing the extra +2 somewhere?

Under the Flurry of Blows description, it says that the Monk's BAB for FoB is equal to his Monk level, but the bonuses listed in the table are always the monk level -2; monks get only the additional attack as if they had TWF, but they are not granted it automatically. Actually taking TWF reduces the penalties for fighting with two weapons.

and i just browsed the list of cr 11 monsters. the things that can even be stunned you're only hitting about half the time at your best attack (assuming your numbers are right). even if you do hit, they only fail their save like 30% of the time. by my back of the envelope math, since you can only try to stun once a round, it's taking you an average of 3 rounds to stun anything, doing about 16 points of damage a round? most things on that list can kill you in two, though i'd doubt they'd bother to try if you're doing that little damage.

and have you seen the CMDs on these things? mid to upper 30s. you can't tumble reliably if at all, you can't trip, and you can't disarm.

i'm in the beginning stages of trying to do a guide to monks similar in style to treatmonk's guides, and let me tell you, as far as i've seen so far, going for dex is a losing proposition for monks. wisdom ups your armor class even when your surprised, your ki pool, and your stunning fist dc. your build here would be far better off ditching dex totally and putting all points into wis. or forgetting about stunning and going totally str for the damage and to hit. i mean, as you've built it, even if you hit with all five attacks every round, it'd still take you 4 rounds to to kill a cr 11 monster yourself. in reality prolly take you more like 8 rounds. that is not very stellar.

I'd be interested in seeing your guide when it's done. I think it's important to point out that these hypothetical battles rarely occur in a vacuum. There are several ways to further increase one's to-hit rolls that I didn't touch on, such as flanking bonuses, morale bonuses, etc., all of which can also be added to CMB rolls.

When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.

So in my example monk, Weapon Focus and Weapon Finesse apply when he attempts combat maneuvers with unarmed attacks. He would be more like +16, +18 to disarm. If the target is flanked, both go up by 2. Is there a Bard in the party? Add your morale bonus to hit. I'm not sure if the +1 from the Amulet of Mighty Fists would also increase unarmed CMB rolls, but it seems likely.

Also, Monks can apply a myriad of conditions to their foes that reduce the target's AC and to-hit and damage rolls.

And yes, a backup weapon is handy to have.

Caedwyr wrote:

One would almost think that this monk's strategy is something other than doing damage!

So if the enemy has a good fort save, what does it do?

Watches itself get disarmed?

Dessic wrote:

A Man In Black wrote:

Really. Show me this AC 30 level 11 monk who can threaten a bebilith.

Okay.

11th level Monk, Dex 16, Wis 18 (possible with a 15-point buy set of stats), Dodge and Mobility as feats, 1 point spent in his ki pool for an additional +4 dodge bonus to AC (all dodge bonuses stack with each other.) That alone would result in a 28 AC while moving through threatened areas to avoid AoOs, and we haven't even given this 11th level monk any magic items yet.

So... mind throwing up the damage your expecting for that monk? (include strength, items, all these buffs you expect the party to be spending their actions on him... etc)

What the rest of the party is doing is so variable that it's hard to list them all, but I'd build an 11th level monk like this.

11th level Half Elf Monk (15-point-buy build)

Ability Scores:
STR: 12 (+1)
DEX: 18 (+4) (14 (base) +1 (4th level) +1 (8th level) +2 (magic))
CON: 12 (+1)
INT: 10 (0)
WIS: 20 (+5) (16 (base) +2 (Racial) +2 (Magic))
CHA: 7 (-2)

hp: 11d8 +11(CON) +11(Feat) +11 (Favored Class)

Saving Throws
Fort: +8 (Immune to diseases and poisons)
Ref: +11 (Improved Evasion when applicable)
Will: +12 (+16 vs. Enchantment effects)

AC: 24 (Note that this is before using his ki pool for an additional +4 Dodge bonus and Mobility's additional +4 Dodge bonus when moving through threatened areas. In those situations he has a 32 AC.)

Special Attacks: Flurry of Blows +17/+17/+12/+12/+7, 1d10+2 dmg (19-20 x2); Stunning Fist 11/day, Can replace Stunned condition with Fatigued (1 round) or Sickened (1 minute), Fort save DC 21.

CMB: +12 (+14 to Disarm) CMD: 26

Feats: Skill Focus: Perception, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Improved Initiative, Dodge, Mobility, Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Unarmed), Improved Disarm, Improved Critical (Unarmed), Defensive Combat Training, Toughness

Skills:
Acrobatics: +18 (11 ranks, +4 DEX, +3 Class Skill)
Perception: +24 (11 Ranks, +5 WIS, +3 Class Skill, +2 Racial Bonus, +3 Skill Focus)
Sense Motive: +19 (11 Ranks, +5 WIS, +3 Class Skill)
(11 skill ranks left to sprinkle about as you like.)

Magic Items
Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2
Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2
Bracers of Armor +1
Ring of Protection +1
Amulet of Mighty Fists +1

A Dwarven Monk would have a higher Con and Wis and a lower CHA, resulting in more hit points and a slightly higher AC, but you miss out on having an extra +4 to your Perception checks if you're a Half Elf with Skill Focus: Perception for free.

Clearly the monk will have a hard time bypassing the Beblith's damage resistance, but the other party members will have a harder time surviving in melee against it than the Monk would. Again, though, expecting the Monk to be your tank is setting yourself up for disappointment.

(Edit: Forgot saving throws.)

Really. Show me this AC 30 level 11 monk who can threaten a bebilith.

Okay.

11th level Monk, Dex 16, Wis 18 (possible with a 15-point buy set of stats), Dodge and Mobility as feats, 1 point spent in his ki pool for an additional +4 dodge bonus to AC (all dodge bonuses stack with each other.) That alone would result in a 28 AC while moving through threatened areas to avoid AoOs, and we haven't even given this 11th level monk any magic items yet.

AC 22 childsplay? Hmmm, while flurrying the monk's got an attack bonus of +8 before modifiers (and don't even expect stunning fist to work, the Bebilith would save the majority of the time), so lets assume he has a +6 on his attack stat (totally reasonable, infact possibly a bit high considering the average points available and the AC you expect to have). That means he's got a 60% chance of hitting on each of his first rank attacks, and 35% with the third. It's a reasonable comparison, but hardly childsplay.

I am envisioning a Monk who takes Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Unarmed), and Weapon Finesse (Unarmed) combined with a 16 Dex, so that does give a +14/+14/+9/+9 FoB progression. One might also reasonably assume the monk to either have items to increase his chance to hit, or buffs from a friendly source, and would certainly be able to move into a flanking position.

Dessic wrote:

I'll take my chances with a Monk's Stunning Fist against a wizard's fortitude save.

Be aware, that you chances start to suck very quickly. If you don't believe me, check some adventure paths. By CR 10 spellcasters can have up to Fort +13. (And in my personal play experience, 3.X wizards easily cranked their Fort even higher than their Will, at least for low-medium levels; don't know about PF, though.)

By level 10 a well built Monk can perform a Stunning Fist attack 10 times a day or more, and they can use a FoB while doing it. So I remain confident.

Dessic wrote:

Stunned enemies can't cast spells. Against clerics who presumably need to hold a holy symbol to cast most spells, disarming them of it kind of ruins their day too.

Many combat spells, including curative ones, don't require DF. And a cleric can easily wreck monk's stuff in melee. In fact, majority of competent clerics bash heads in melee after a combat begins.

You're limited to Cure/Inflict Wounds, and spells that rely on the monk failing a saving throw. As for just attacking, they'll still have a pretty high AC to deal with, assuming the monk doesn't just take their weapon away next. A monk who builds to disarm foes is downright annoying.

Dessic wrote:

Someone casting spells to avoid the monk isn't casting spells that will hurt the party.

Ever heard about "pre-buffing"?

Are we assuming a battle in which the monk allows the cleric all the time in the world to buff up, or one in which the monk and cleric see each other at the same time and the monk is standing next to him in one round or so?

Quote:

Well by that logic anyone who relies on armor for their defenses will be turned into hatchling chow when fighting Bebiliths, while the Monk with no armor to worry about and all high saves will dance around it and hit it until it dies. Cherry picking enemies and using that to justify a belief in a class's overall weakness won't get you far.

The monk will dance around and get eaten to death. The bebilith does more damage, has more HP, has a better chance to hit, and has humongous reach. Really, you picked that woodchipper instead of a fire giant?

I sure did. The Monk will have a ridiculously high AC (right around 30) while moving through the Bebelith's threatened spaces that no amount of Armor Dismantling will change. While the Rogue and Wizard fail their Fortitude saves against the Bebelith's bite and the fighter and cleric get entangled in its web attacks and get their armor destroyed due to lower Reflex saves, the monk will remain largely unaffected. And a 22 AC is child's play for a 10th level Monk to hit, though its DR will slow him down a little.

Clearly this proves that the Wizard, Rogue, Fighter, and Cleric are all worthless classes.

We're still at the point where people are saying "The monk is super awesome against soft targets." Even if that's true (and it's not), what happens when the party is just fighting brutes? Does the monk stand in the back and throw shuriken?

Disarm them. Disarming someone with an unarmed attack lets you automatically pick up whatever they dropped. Throw whatever they held as far away as you can, or run off with it laughing as they try to keep up.

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

the issue is hitting and full attacking the right target, you aim at the heavy armored target, or the one with the most HP, or what have you and stand there trading blows every round, your not gonna last long. Sure you can do it, but your built to be a harasser, hit the caster, keep him from casting, on the defensive,

The only way to keep a semi-competent caster from casting is to make him die or disable him with your first hard-earned hit. Barring that, take so much HPs, that he switches from attacking to self-preservation. 3.X monk can do this, sort of, with enough optimization, pure PF monk can't.

I'll take my chances with a Monk's Stunning Fist against a wizard's fortitude save. Stunned enemies can't cast spells. Against clerics who presumably need to hold a holy symbol to cast most spells, disarming them of it kind of ruins their day too.

Besides that, where people ever take the ridiculous notion that the monk is meant to be a harasser, particularly a harrasser of casters? His already-bad damage output goes down the drain once he starts moving more than 5' per round. He has no special in-built tools to penetrate typical caster ways to defend themselves (flight, BC, invisibility, miss chances, heck, even high AC).

Someone casting spells to avoid the monk isn't casting spells that will hurt the party.

fixing monks is super easy.

Zen Master Bonus (Ex)

When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC, CMD, and attack rolls with unarmed strike. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC, CMD, and unarmed strike attack rolls at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.

The bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. He loses both attack and defense bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.

I would add CMB to the things the Zen Master Bonus should affect.

Zen Acrobatics (Ex)

At 5th level, a monk adds his level to all Acrobatics checks. In addition, he always counts as having a running start when making jump checks using Acrobatics. By spending 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action, a monk gains a +20 bonus on all Acrobatics checks for 1 round.

Fixed!

This is called High Jump, is it not?

Dessic wrote:

By itself, the Monk strikes me as more of a harasser, who can get to and occupy those who can decimate your melee fighters at range.

As opposed to the other classes, who can get to and kill those who can decimate, etc. Nevermind that many fights just won't have soft targets for the monk to occupy.

Other classes have finite resources they have to use to achieve this, or have to use ranged attacks themselves, or both. And a target doesn't have to be 'soft' for a monk to effectively deal with it.

Not only do monks not do this well (in either the "as well as or better than other classes" sense or the "effective against level-appropriate challenges" sense) but it's not a role that every fight will necessarily include. When you're fighting fire giants, having no abilities other than "hit a dude" and defenses that get you turned into hellhound chow does not make for a well-designed class.

Well by that logic anyone who relies on armor for their defenses will be turned into hatchling chow when fighting Bebiliths, while the Monk with no armor to worry about and all high saves will dance around it and hit it until it dies. Cherry picking enemies and using that to justify a belief in a class's overall weakness won't get you far.

If you're depending on an unbuffed Monk to be your party's primary damage dealer, you may have picked Wisdom as your dump stat. ;)

By itself, the Monk strikes me as more of a harasser, who can get to and occupy those who can decimate your melee fighters at range. Dodge bonuses to AC all stack with each other, so a Monk with the Dodge and Mobility feats can spend 1 point from his ki pool for another +4 Dodge bonus to AC at 5th level. Even with a 15-point buy set of stats, that can lead to a well-protected Monk (AC in the mid 20s) who can weave his way through a field of sword-wielding foes and get all up in the face of a cleric of wizard. Sure, a wizard on a Phantom Steed can get there too, but he has to think of his chance of being hit by ranged attacks.

Monks who build to Grapple, Stun, Trip, and Disarm will be of far more help to their party.

Thanks for the reply. I am playing in a group with two Sorcerers with Message, a wizard and a druid. If it's true that Message allows for multiple whispered messages and responses over the spell's duration, then the Druid might only be able to respond to whispered messages, and then only to the one sending the last whisper to him. Time for the Druid to invest in one level of Wiz or Sor, heh...

If that's the case, Message seems awfully powerful for a cantrip.

Also, is the verbal component of the spell the whispered message itself? If so, this would answer question 2 for me, and likely question 3. I don't think this is the case, but again the spell description is ... lacking.

The description for Message leaves me with a couple of questions.

1.) Does the spell allow for only one message from the caster and one reply from the target(s) within the duration of the spell? The spell description doesn't state this explicitly, and switched between the singular and the plural form when discussing the spell's effects.

2.) If I inform my companions that I have cast Message, do they have to wait for a message from me before sending one of their own? Can they use their 'reply' before I send my 'message'?

3.) Can I cast a spell with a verbal component as my 'message,' to almost mimic a spell cast with the Silent Spell feat? I suspect the answer is no, but I'm curious nonetheless.

Thanks in advance.