It just occurred to me that no-where in the discussions about this competition have I seen anyone mention the actual cash value of the first prize.
For me, and probably everyone else, the money are a long way down the list of motivations for entering this contest. But since this is likely to be a real opportunity for the winner (and many of the finalists) to work with game design professionally, I'm at least curious. After all, some of us have kids, car-payments and a regular nine-to-five job that we dream to be able to quit and design games full-time.
So, what does Paizo pay for a 32 page adventure? Is it a fixed fee, or does the winner negotiate an individual contract? And how does the pay compare to other freelance work?
I understand perfectly well if Paizo and/or the previous winners don't wish to discuss this publicly, but I thought I'd ask anyway.
So, what does Paizo pay for a 32 page adventure? Is it a fixed fee, or does the winner negotiate an individual contract? And how does the pay compare to other freelance work?
I'll answer you in somewhat non-descript terms...and if, someone from Paizo wants to elaborate, I'll leave that to their discretion.
- It's a fixed fee.
- They pay you by the word, not in royalties (which is far preferable for freelancers).
- Paizo pays freelancers one of the higher rates in the entire industry.
Hope that helps,
--Neil
Generally speaking, professional writing of this type is paid per word. Usually a fraction of a cent per word.
EDIT: Ninja'd!
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So, what does Paizo pay for a 32 page adventure? Is it a fixed fee, or does the winner negotiate an individual contract? And how does the pay compare to other freelance work?
This is Neil Spicer after he won so it must pay well.
...professional writing of this type is paid per word. Usually a fraction of a cent per word.
It's not a "fraction of a cent per word" unless you're working on something really small for a small-time publisher (probably just a PDF publisher). Most larger publishers pay you a few cents per word. That rate varies depending on their marketshare. And a "name" author can draw more, depending on the project.
Depends on your species. Illithids are paid 4kg in fresh brains.
I think there was a mix-up at my job, and I got the Christmas bonus intended for the illithid in the next cube over. I tried pawning them off to a research institute, but it turns out they came from politicians, several of which are still active in Congress as we speak. So, none of the institutes wanted them.
Hell, couldn't even pawn them off on the Mad Scientist section of craigslist.
You will not get rich off of a 32-page adventure. Heck, you won't even get to quit your day job.
Not to bring you down, but here's an anecdotal story. I bumped into Jim Butcher once and we had a talk about this subject. He writes the Dresden Files series. I wanted to know how many copies of a novel I needed to sell to become rich. After his 6th book was published (mind you, this was after several of his earlier books were "best sellers"), his wife could finally stop working as an engineer. He'd basically been a stay-at-home hubby writing while she paid the bills up till then. BUT even after book 6 (in early 2005), he still didn't make as much money as she had as an engineer.
Just some food for thought.
This is basically what I'm talking about.
Right now, I'm the primary breadwinner for our family, since my girlfriend is still a student. We have a small son and regular bills to pay, so as much as I'd love to be the stay-at-home hubby designing rpg on a freelance basis, that is unlikely to happen, at least until my GF gets a real job. And even then, our family should be prepared to take a hit in overall house-hold income, since my current job is fairly well paid.
So even if I (hopefully) make it further in the contest, I may want to get used to the idea that game design is most likely going to be a hobby project for the time being.
I just think that making these considerations is a part of taking this contest seriously and maybe look a bit beyond the goal line.
Dragon and Dungeon Magazines (in print and under Paizo) started at around 6 cents per word if I recall, and WoTC appears to be paying the same rate for the current, digital incarnations of those publications. This isn't stellar but it's fair compensation for your time and effort- more than a token rate. A page is something like 750 words, and 32 pages by that rate would run well over a thousand USD (writing a full-length adventure for Paizo these days might mean a better rate, but how much better I don't know).
Kobold Quarterly starts at 1 cent per word, which is more like a token rate, but a good token rate- similar (small-scale, amateur-driven) prints pay less, if anything.
By comparison, The Magazine of Science Fiction and Fantasy says it pays 6-9 cents per word, and I believe Realms of Fantasy offered 8 cents per word before they went under. If you can get a small-time publisher to print your first novel, you're probably looking at 5 cents per word, possibly with a cutoff to 3 cents past a certain wordcount.
Roger Moore (of TSR, not of 007) liked to say, "There are more professional astronauts in the USA than there are professional game designers."
It's hard to support yourself full-time as a writer, especially in the RPG industry, as half the job is writing and half the job is wrangling the next next project. Yes, I mean "not the next project, but the project after that."
Frogs are paid in butter...go figure...
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Roger Moore (of TSR, not of 007) liked to say, "There are more professional astronauts in the USA than there are professional game designers."
It's hard to support yourself full-time as a writer, especially in the RPG industry, as half the job is writing and half the job is wrangling the next next project. Yes, I mean "not the next project, but the project after that."
Game Developers are filthy rich though, right?
Game Developers are filthy rich though, right?Are they, at least, filthy?
That's a requirement! ;P
That's a requirement! ;PGame Developers are filthy rich though, right?Are they, at least, filthy?
~laughter~
Paizo pays well compared to elsewhere in the industry as I can gather, and also considering the industry and its state at the moment. I've never negotiated rates, but I've also never much paid attention to the per word rate I've gotten, and I don't rely on it for income. That said, I've been quite happy and it's a nice little bonus on top of having fun writing stuff that's just fun to write. :)
Put it this way, I earned enough on TGB to buy the original cover artwork from Wayne Reynolds at GenCon. I hated myself for a month for spending that much on one thing, but I'll be hanging it in my new house this week and I'm thrilled that I went for it.
Back to rate though. I'm pretty sure it went up a little since my first article in Dragon a while back, and that's probably similar for anyone. Once you establish that you can hit deadlines and/or word limits *wince* and a given publisher likes your stuff, they may increase your rate to keep you in their freelancer stable. Big names -which I am not- earn more, same as any other industry.
Here is my 1.73¢. Game design is a very unique niche. Not a niche market, or career path, it's a niche that encompasses a group of many disciplines to create a specific and successful product. Content, art, design, product management, and playtesting are all aspects to creating a single game. With over 11 years working at WotC and in that time having my hand in every game, yes, every game, I've come to grasp that not all games or concepts are marketable or should even be produced. The strive to invent the next Magic or Pokémon was/is the goal for the TCG market, but what does that compare to in the RPG realm? The limit is only what the RPG Game-Master and the accompanying players want to invest in a fresh idea or concept. Example 01: Setting scenario: Alien world with a powerful race of inhabitants gets invaded from an outside group of non-natives wanting to depleat the planet's unique natural resource. Sound familiar, original, or seen in about 10 different animes? It made James Cameron a little over a billion, but how would that translate into an RPG? Is the goal to make millions and be filthy rich? If you answered yes, you need to wear heavier shoes and come back down to Earth. The success does not come from one game alone, but the group of work that is produced from that company and the multiple disciplines of professionals that contribute to it. I know many game designers. I work them regularly to help concept games and product ideas. Some ideas are very good, others just needed to have a proof of concept made to determine that they sucked. "Sucked" is harsh, but constructive and honest feedback is a necessary and crucial part of building a product. It is also the trial and error and learning from previous game designs that help you to make the best "original" game or develop a concept that engages the player to bond with your game idea and help build a community to increase the popularity and adaptability into a successful product.
Game design is a large process. Some companies strive to adapt multiple games based upon one intellectual property while others devote their key strength to develop their own "world" and enhance the playability to one gaming genre. I think Paizo has done a superb job with the Pathfinder RPG. The RPG Superstar contest is also a great way to help potential game designers and developers get their feet wet in the creative process and exposure to many levels of the the gaming industry.
PS. I've come across a number of malodorous game developers.
To dovetail off of Corey's post and my previous comment, Ryan Dancey likes this joke:
Q: How do you make a small fortune in the RPG industry?
A: Start with a large fortune.
;)
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Paizo pays well compared to elsewhere in the industry as I can gather, and also considering the industry and its state at the moment. I've never negotiated rates, but I've also never much paid attention to the per word rate I've gotten, and I don't rely on it for income. That said, I've been quite happy and it's a nice little bonus on top of having fun writing stuff that's just fun to write. :)
Put it this way, I earned enough on TGB to buy the original cover artwork from Wayne Reynolds at GenCon. I hated myself for a month for spending that much on one thing, but I'll be hanging it in my new house this week and I'm thrilled that I went for it.
Back to rate though. I'm pretty sure it went up a little since my first article in Dragon a while back, and that's probably similar for anyone. Once you establish that you can hit deadlines and/or word limits *wince* and a given publisher likes your stuff, they may increase your rate to keep you in their freelancer stable. Big names -which I am not- earn more, same as any other industry.
The most I have been paid for game-related freelancing was 8 cents a word the last year or two I was writing webcolumns for WotC (started at 5c/line and gradually increased over the years). Then again, I had a series of friendly editors who liked my stuff, good hit rates on the columns, and was working for the biggest company in the biz at a relatively flush time for them (2002-2007).
And then the hush-hush pre-4th Ed consolidation began and *poof* went the outside freelancers and *tank* went the economy and let's just say I doubt anybody's paying 8 cents a word anymore for freelance unless you've got serious name recognition. Still, Paizo's rates are pretty good, so if you're gonna do freelance, it's a definitely a good place to do it.
It's definitely not a business that you get into to make big money, but it's a nice little something extra on top of my regular job.
As a small time publisher I will pipe in to say we pay
Royalties (50% of net sales) I have been a freelancer and when I pay royalties I try to give a significant percentage.
.01 cents a word if we are paying a flat fee
.03+ cents a word is only if we are actively seeking out a particular "name" author.
Steve Russell
Rite Publishing
Mmmm Something I always wondered... How many words on average is a 32-pages adventure? 20.000?
Mmmm Something I always wondered... How many words on average is a 32-pages adventure? 20.000?
Yes. That's generally an accurate figure, but it does vary a bit depending on layout constraints. "Realm of the Fellnight Queen" should be coming in right around 20K in actual words. A single page often equates to 800 words, I believe. But, you've got to make space for maps, art, etc. And those come in half-page to full-page increments.
Mmmm Something I always wondered... How many words on average is a 32-pages adventure? 20.000?Yes. That's generally an accurate figure, but it does vary a bit depending on layout constraints. "Realm of the Fellnight Queen" should be coming in right around 20K in actual words. A single page often equates to 800 words, I believe. But, you've got to make space for maps, art, etc. And those come in half-page to full-page increments.
I also happened to notice that you are doing one of the modules in the Kingmaker AP - I can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to that Adventure Path, just from reading the previews.
I also happened to notice that you are doing one of the modules in the Kingmaker AP - I can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to that Adventure Path, just from reading the previews.
That's correct. Pathfinder #34: "Blood for Blood"...the fourth installment in the Kingmaker adventure path.
It's got something to do with...bloodshed. I think. ;-)
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For my first (and so far, only) RPG writing credit, I was paid 1 cent per word by a PDF publisher to write 3,000 words (the entirety of the product). I think (hope) this is about the minimum you'll get writing for the RPG industry these days, and it's pretty much what I expected as a hopeful writer with no prior RPG credits to speak of, writing for a PDF publisher.
A 32-page adventure for Paizo? I suspect the rate is somewhat higher.
A 32-page adventure for Paizo? I suspect the rate is somewhat higher.
As someone who's written for PDF publishers, I can tell you the going rate for Paizo is quite a bit higher. :-)
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A 32-page adventure for Paizo? I suspect the rate is somewhat higher.As someone who's written for PDF publishers, I can tell you the going rate for Paizo is quite a bit higher. :-)
Orders of magnitude. Thousands of dollars. Never work again!
Or, you know, just something more than 1 cent per word.
That's correct. Pathfinder #34: "Blood for Blood"...the fourth installment in the Kingmaker adventure path.
It's got something to do with...bloodshed. I think. ;-)
Title kinda sounded like barter economics to me.
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Realistically I don't expect writing role playing game material will pay my bills. But it will buy me nice things as money i wouldn't otherwise have. Like gaming products... Oh you're insidious Paizo. Insidious.
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Roger Moore (of TSR, not of 007) liked to say, "There are more professional astronauts in the USA than there are professional game designers."
It's hard to support yourself full-time as a writer, especially in the RPG industry, as half the job is writing and half the job is wrangling the next next project. Yes, I mean "not the next project, but the project after that."
Where is Roger now? I loved his work.
I have some experience with what WotC pays freelancers, and I suspect Paizo pays close to the same amount. So, since a 32-page adventure comes out to 20,000 words, I'm going to ballpark the cash value for winning RPG Superstar between $1,000.00 and $1,200.00.
Honestly, though, the real prize is not the cash. The real prize is something that takes most writers years to accomplish, i.e., getting your foot in the door with one of the best RPG companies in the biz. Trust me, if you want to be a writer in the RPG industry, that's worth far more than a thousand bucks. =]
BD
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Chief Technical Officer
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I also happened to notice that you are doing one of the modules in the Kingmaker AP - I can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to that Adventure Path, just from reading the previews.That's correct. Pathfinder #34: "Blood for Blood"...the fourth installment in the Kingmaker adventure path.
It's got something to do with...bloodshed. I think. ;-)
It's also the medium in which Neil was required to sign the contract.
It's also the medium in which Neil was required to sign the contract.
Yes. And ever since my bone marrow has been working overtime to replace what was lost. :-(
It's also the medium in which Neil was required to sign the contract.Yes. And ever since my bone marrow has been working overtime to replace what was lost. :-(
So, eat lots of oranges until then?
So, eat lots of oranges until then?It's also the medium in which Neil was required to sign the contract.Yes. And ever since my bone marrow has been working overtime to replace what was lost. :-(
Nah. That messes with my acid reflux. :-D
Where is Roger now? I loved his work.
He left the industry after Wizards bought TSR, I believe it was family-related (as in, "wanted to spend more time with his family," or "evading the vampires who were the ancestral enemies of his Great Aunt Matilda").
Nah. That messes with my acid reflux. :-DSo, eat lots of oranges until then?It's also the medium in which Neil was required to sign the contract.Yes. And ever since my bone marrow has been working overtime to replace what was lost. :-(
Hrmmmm ... ooo, I know. Make a deal with Gulga Ginch :P
Honestly, very few people even knew where he was *then*. A real man of mystery, that one.Roger Moore (of TSR, not of 007) liked to say, "There are more professional astronauts in the USA than there are professional game designers."Where is Roger now? I loved his work.
The very MoM who bought the first article I ever sent out. Ever.
How much was I paid back in '87 as a first time author? 3 cents a word. Man, that price never went up in the industry, did it? <G> That was back when Dragon had a monthly circulation of 100,000.
Title kinda sounded like barter economics to me.That's correct. Pathfinder #34: "Blood for Blood"...the fourth installment in the Kingmaker adventure path.
It's got something to do with...bloodshed. I think. ;-)
Nah, that's obviously a currency exchange.
Put another way, consider this: I am currently doing some contract writing for a company that sells medical supplies. I'm paid at the rate of $0.02 per word for those blurbs.
Now, the major difference between getting paid 2 cents a word for doing THAT and 2 cents a word for writing RPGs (if I'm ever so lucky as to be published) is that the RPGs are a helluva lot more fun to write than anecdotes about wheelchair lifts and walk-in baths. :)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
aka Tarren Dei
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Put another way, consider this: I am currently doing some contract writing for a company that sells medical supplies. I'm paid at the rate of $0.02 per word for those blurbs.
Now, the major difference between getting paid 2 cents a word for doing THAT and 2 cents a word for writing RPGs (if I'm ever so lucky as to be published) is that the RPGs are a helluva lot more fun to write than anecdotes about wheelchair lifts and walk-in baths. :)
Could you mix the two together?
"Ever fail your acrobatics check climbing out of ordinary bathtubs? ..."
Put another way, consider this: I am currently doing some contract writing for a company that sells medical supplies. I'm paid at the rate of $0.02 per word for those blurbs.
Now, the major difference between getting paid 2 cents a word for doing THAT and 2 cents a word for writing RPGs (if I'm ever so lucky as to be published) is that the RPGs are a helluva lot more fun to write than anecdotes about wheelchair lifts and walk-in baths. :)
Could you mix the two together?
"Ever fail your acrobatics check climbing out of ordinary bathtubs? ..."
Don't SAY things like that. My players might read these boards, and they'll want to start paying for hydrotherapy to increase their skill bonuses. And that's just another annoying thing I'll have to stat out for Thursday.