Irony, thy name is katana.
Do you see what you've started?
One of the truisms of weapon design is that they're generally built to overcome the defenses your opponents are likely to have.
We switched to smaller calibre bullets because body armor fell out of fashion, and for the same amount of weight, a soldier got more shots. Body armor is now coming back into fashion and larger calibre bullets are coming back into play.
By the height of the Medieval period, the sword was primarily a backup weapon, because it had difficulty penetrating the heaviest of the battlefield armors.
(This is where I generally say "go learn to play GURPS" to put this into a gaming context).
The reason why two handed swords and bastard swords had a non-sharpened part of the blade near the quillions was so the user could 'half-sword' with them and use a two handed thrust to try and get through armor.
An excellent discussion of this is in Driftwood Publishing's Riddle of Steel RPG.
(One of the grand disconnects of D&D and Pathfinder from reality is that about a third of the way into your character's career, the damage bonuses matter more than the damage does...)
You know, this reminds me of the time that I was watching TV with the kids, and I couldn't believe there was still a Power Rangers show on TV, and I was making fun of the current Power Ranger's "theme," and I said,
"what's next, some Power Rangers Monkey Force show?"
And the next day there was a commercial for this show:
Super Robot Monkey Team Hyperforce Go!
and my kids thought I was psychic for a while.
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I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine katana in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my katana.
Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.
Katanas are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.
Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their katanas of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the katanas first because their killing power was feared and respected.
So what am I saying? Katanas are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:
(One-Handed Exotic Weapon) 1d12 Damage 19-20 x4 Crit +2 to hit and damage Counts as Masterwork
(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon) 2d10 Damage 17-20 x4 Crit +5 to hit and damage Counts as Masterwork
Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Katanas in real life, don't you think?
tl;dr = Katanas need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block.
And that's the gospel truth.
I swear I'm not sorry for doing that.
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** spoiler omitted **
And that's the gospel truth.
I swear I'm not sorry for doing that.
Ok, I believe you. I really really do. I've seen studies, watched documentaries and wielded similar myself. I feel humbled to be around such a weapon let alone to hold it.
But here's the inherent bits that I hold in contention.
I have a replica shortsword that set me back $400US. Your katana, by your admission set you back $20k.
How many people in the modern era would fork that over?
How many swordsmiths work to this level?
How many swords can be produced to this quality?
How many are allowed out of Japan?
This is about a game rendition of a real weapon. In all writeups that I would consider proper, a katana deals damage similar to what you've stat'd out, but also runs upwards of 500gp. (I don't have my Rokugan/Oriental Adventures source laying around at work)
How many characters can afford that kind of (awesome, but mundane) weapon? By the time most PC's can throw that around, they can afford magical gear and thus render the entire discourse moot.
Just my 2cp, and with great respect intended.
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Words.
Ha ha ha, oh wow.
No, wait, what I posted was a joke, a 4chan meme, resulting from some super-serious arguments that had spread across several gaming forums a while back, IIRC, they even hit the Wizards forums.
Here, for your reference:
The meme, in all its glory, on 1d4chan.
TVTropes take on it (check the Tabletop Games Examples).
Sorry if anyone took that seriously.
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Ah, and that was all of the data I wanted on the subject in one place but didn't have the time to find myself.
I wish everyone who thinks katana are supernatural read this. And I wish I could afford one myself, just to say I had one.
The training, in my opinion, is the biggest thing. Thanks for all the linking!
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Words.Ha ha ha, oh wow.
No, wait, what I posted was a joke, a 4chan meme, resulting from some super-serious arguments that had spread across several gaming forums a while back, IIRC, they even hit the Wizards forums.
Here, for your reference:
The meme, in all its glory, on 1d4chan.
TVTropes take on it (check the Tabletop Games Examples).Sorry if anyone took that seriously.
Too funny.
I recall a recent show called "Weapon Masters", in which a fabricator went to Japan and was shown how a traditional katana is made - a process taking nearly 3 weeks from iron sand to finished blade, and involving several workers - smelting the iron in large clay tubs took 72 hours of constant attention. Ingots of that iron are sent to the smith, who sorts them by hardness, taking the ingots and breaking them on an anvil. Pieces that broke like glass become edge steel, pieces that didn't break cleanly became core steel. These ingots were then forged into rods - the core being roughly a flattened hexagon, and the edge being U or V shaped. Once both were ready, they were forged together into a single blade. The blade was then painted with a charcoal mixture, heated, and quenched to a proper temper - the charcoal mixture keeping the covered portion of the blade at a different temperature. During the quench, the blade takes on the characteristic curve - it's due to the steel changing shape at differing rates. A smooth perfect curve indicates a proper temper and a sword that will perform optimally. At this point, the sword is worked on by artisan sharpeners and polishes, for up to two weeks, to give it a flawless polish to prevent snagging during a cut.
Katanas are masterwork swords, there is no doubt.
Now, the same fabricator than went to an American swordsmith using modern high-grade steel (1095 Carbon Steel) and modern methods. He made a katana in an afternoon, shaping a single billet of 1095 instead of two rods of iron. He wasn't able to achieve the same level of polish (especially since he only had one night to polish it before testing) and it wasn't as pretty, but it was definitely a katana.
When compared to a traditional katana, wielded by an expert in kenjutsu/battojutsu, the modern sword performed probably at 90-95% comparatively, with the deficit being from the polish. When cutting mats, the modern katana snagged at 6 layers of mat, while the traditional cut a full 8 layers. When they hit hard material though - the iron skull of a kabuto - the traditional sword nicked very seriously - probably 2 cm of edge had chipped off. The modern sword damaged the helmet notably, without a scratch. All in all, the modern sword, if given the same level of polish, would probably have outshone the traditional blade it all aspects.
Also, re: katana vs tachi, the tachi was in use a bit earlier than the katana; the tachi was suspended from the o-yorio with the cutting edge down. A katana was worn through the sash, cutting edge up. As samurai began wearing lighter armor, such as the sendai-do and do-maru, the katana became the archetypical weapon. Construction-wise, they were quite similar, with tachi tending to have more curvature near and along the grip - some tachi are rather banana-shaped. The curve of a katana tended to be more along the blade, with a relatively straight grip.
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I recall a recent show called "Weapon Masters"
I was going to quote this, but couldn't remember the name of the show. Thank you for backing my play. *grins*
I thought that show was demonstrative, especially when they fired a .357 Magnum at both blades and the traditional sword sliced the bullet without a scratch. Can't remember how the modern blade fared on that one.
So what alignment is Batman anyway?
So what alignment is Batman anyway?Wrong-threaded, I think, from here perhaps ...
Rez
Actually, I was just referencing my derailment re: katanas in this very thread . . .
How Swords Kill:
Method 1: You managed to drill someone through the central nervous system (neck, spine, brain)
Method 2: You manage to drill someone through the upper thoracic cavity (heart, lungs, aortic arch)
Both of these are 'one shot kills' if you can manage them.
Method 3: Run someone though or slice through the abdominal cavity. The odds that you'll hit the trunk artery behind the internal organs is pretty high, and they'll bleed to death in a few minutes. Even if you miss, unless there's penicillin around or comparable, they're unlikely to recover.
Surprisingly, foil fencing gets this very right. Every place where a foil can score a point is a place where if you got hit, you'd very likely die, either instantly, within minutes, or within a few days. The entire rules of engagement for foil are built around "Whoever gets hit first loses."
Method 4: Take a deep cut on the inner thigh. The femoral arteries won't bleed out as quickly as the trunk artery in the back of the abdomen, but they're closer to the skin, and harder to armor. There is an analogous artery in the arm-pit for arms, but it's MUCH harder to hit.
Method 5: General body trauma. Anything that severs muscle tissue or tendons is likely to take someone out of the fight. It's certainly likely to render that limb difficult to use or worse. It will also leak blood; not as fast as hitting one of the main arteries will, and they may actually seal up, but blood loss is what kills people from knife wounds and similar.
In all, bigger, healthier people can take a bit more abuse in this fashion, but it's really a variance of about +/- 10%, not the D&D situation where the knight has more hit points than the warhorse. :)
One or two sword hits will kill you if they hit in the right spot. Most techniques for using swords teach how to hit those spots to some degree or another, or to disable limbs so you can kill someone by hitting those spots. It's a very straightforward application of force and cutting.
A katana's ability to kill is about the same as a rusty machete's - very high against an unarmored opponent, moderate against someone wearing chainmail or scale armor, and low against armor with rigid plates.
Again, this is where I recommend people play a few combat rounds of GURPS. After which, the itch to add realism to Pathfinder will go away.
I recall a recent show called "Weapon Masters"I was going to quote this, but couldn't remember the name of the show. Thank you for backing my play. *grins*
I thought that show was demonstrative, especially when they fired a .357 Magnum at both blades and the traditional sword sliced the bullet without a scratch. Can't remember how the modern blade fared on that one.
It was a Sig P226 in 9mm, and the modern blade fared just as well, except more lead was smeared along the faces of the modern blade - again, it was less polished.
Wait this thread was about wearing armor? :)
So, about that armor: Does any PC actually wear these armors?
Padded, Hide, chainmail, splintmail, banded mail, half-plate.
It seems there is very little monetary difference between these and the next better set of armor.
I've had PCs wear chainmail and half-plate. Some of that is a flavor decision - a noble type character who couldn't afford full plate went with half-plate because it was more impressive, even if it was slightly less protective than a less magnificent form of armor.
Padded, Hide, chainmail, splintmail, banded mail, half-plate.
I've seen all of the above at various points in time; of course this is usually in the early stages of a campaign where money can be an issue - especially in early editions of D&D (D&D/1ED/2ED) where starting cash was reaaaaaally low.
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Wait this thread was about wearing armor? :)
So, about that armor: Does any PC actually wear these armors?
Padded, Hide, chainmail, splintmail, banded mail, half-plate.
It seems there is very little monetary difference between these and the next better set of armor.
After the first couple of levels the only armor I ever see players wearing is Leather, Chain Shirt or platemail. Unless they just find a really good magic suit of some other type of armor.
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After the first couple of levels the only armor I ever see players wearing is Leather, Chain Shirt or platemail. Unless they just find a really good magic suit of some other type of armor.
Going for the highest 'bang for the buck' is never a bad idea. When you can afford the highest AC for the class of armor (ie Light, Medium, Heavy) just go for it.
Now I will obviously countermand myself by saying that sometimes there are a good number of reasons in RP for a character to wear a mid-grade of a tier of armor. And magical gear trumps logic.
Oh I was just talking about what I see the rest of my group always take. For some reason our resident rogue who 90% of the time plays the rogue he always goes leather or chain shirt and never studded for some reason.
Studded Sucks. Maybe OK for Rangers, but even that is an early edition blowback to yesteryear.
Honestly, its Leather, or a M/Work Chain shirt the whole way for rogues.
Mithril breastplates rock the world for Barbarians.
I'll accept that if you are rolling around with top end Dex that M/W Studded will hold an edge over the chain shirt, personally I just stick with good old Leather when it gets that high.
You sort of nudged on why I hold my opinion though, in so far as how you are playing out in combat. I tend to find that the group dynamics can sometimes find themselves placing the rogue more in harms way where the extra AC point (at the lower levels) will be significant enough to be seen as worth the trade off. If this isn't the case, then leather is good in terms of upper Dex limits, no Dex penalty, and low weight.
I'm an either/or guy, so tend to skip the studded which sits (in my view) as being a bit 'in the middle'. Its worthwhile gear, I just don't get much mileage out of it, and apparently neither does Dark_Mistresses.
It's a crying shame though, as I love the look and feel of the whole studded armour caper. I ALWAYS yearn for the good old days - like so!
And yeah, the Mith plate BP is awesome.
best armor for rogues?
Mithril Chain Shirt. +4 AC +6 Max Dex No armor check penalty 10% arcane failure. only 10 pounds. can be worn under clothing and thus easily concealed. every rogue i play tries to get one as soon as possible. as do most of my other pcs. even my clerics and arcanists.
only 1100 gold pieces net ac cap +10 (+6 touch)
for rogues with insane dexterity bonuses, (+8 mod or higher)
Masterwork thistledown padding (races of the wild)
+1 Ac +10 Max Dex No armor check penalty, no arcane failure, practically weightless. can be concealed if described just right. (padded bracers ala naruto) net AC Cap +11 (+10 touch) a rogue can have plate aptitudes with several times the touch bonus. and almost no wieght.
only 555 gold pieces
Mithril Chain ShirtI thought about mentioning it, but didn't. Unquestionably the best armor value in the game. I usually remove it, since it should cost a ilot more MHO.
R.
but masterwork thistledown padding can get so much better. mithril fullplate provides a much better AC cap (+12) the mithril chain shirt and masterwork thistledown padding require huge dexteirty investments. it's not that i think mithril shirt is underpriced, i think mithril/adamantine medium/heavy armor is overpriced for the effect.
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I'll accept that if you are rolling around with top end Dex that M/W Studded will hold an edge over the chain shirt, personally I just stick with good old Leather when it gets that high.
You sort of nudged on why I hold my opinion though, in so far as how you are playing out in combat. I tend to find that the group dynamics can sometimes find themselves placing the rogue more in harms way where the extra AC point (at the lower levels) will be significant enough to be seen as worth the trade off. If this isn't the case, then leather is good in terms of upper Dex limits, no Dex penalty, and low weight.
I'm an either/or guy, so tend to skip the studded which sits (in my view) as being a bit 'in the middle'. Its worthwhile gear, I just don't get much mileage out of it, and apparently neither does Dark_Mistresses.
It's a crying shame though, as I love the look and feel of the whole studded armour caper. I ALWAYS yearn for the good old days - like so!
And yeah, the Mith plate BP is awesome.
Yeah I would love to see a rework of armor so each armor has pro's and con's of different sorts. But then I feel the same about weapons. Of course I also miss the old weapon speeds too.
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Yeah I would love to see a rework of armor so each armor has pro's and con's of different sorts. But then I feel the same about weapons. Of course I also miss the old weapon speeds too.Hey, ask, and ye shall recieve.
Hmm thats interesting what you did. We have been using the conan rules for armor being dmg reduction. But the AoE aspect on yours is interesting.
Once you get past the smell, they're right comfy...so I hear.
It's probably also why adventurers can sleep right next to a stack of dead troglodytes--they're damn tired after all that armor-slogging!
[Han]"This may smell bad, kid, but it'll keep you warm until I get the shelter up... Ugh. And I thought they smelled bad on the outside."[/Han]
The reason we hand wave a lot of this stuff is the same as the reason we don't cover day to day activities such as going to the bathroom or washing our laundry etc. because that's not the stuff we're interested in. Our adventures are more like TV episodes or mini-series where we focus on the interesting parts of the adventurer's life.
Sure, but wouldn't the BBEG's crack Assassins be waiting for a time to strike when the guard was down or when the players were sans all their nice gear?
Players wearing their armour at all times simply doesn't make sense, however if you are just rolling through fairly superficial or stylised campaigns maybe that sort of detail wont come up.
Just remember even the Big Bad Assasins have to go to the can too.
Hey if the party wants to do their homework and apply a little "Greyhawk Karate" (Crossbow bolts through the toilet door) then all is fair in love and war!
There's the other shoe on that foot, if you're not wearing your armor, then WHERE is it? Most adventurers are spending months away from home if they have a home base at all. Without major magic to compact thier valuables, they simply won't be carrying too many changes of clothing. (one thing that is different between us moderns and those folks of elder eras is the tolerance of the inevitable consequences of fewer clothing changes and fewer occasions to bathe.)
Few people want their fantasy to be quite this accurate, but for those who are interested...
A 15th Century European knight on campaign would generally have several horses and a squire or groom to help care for them. He rode into battle on a destrier, a heavy warhorse. At other times, he rode a palfrey, a lighter horse trained to develop a pleasant gait. (Warhorses tended to have a heavy, bone-jarring gait that made riding them less than pleasant.) A third horse carried his spare gear, including several spare shields, as they were considered disposable and replaced after every major fight. Armor was often carried in barrels, since they were easily made waterproof: Rust never sleeps!
The knight might travel unarmored, if he deemed it safe. More dangerous locations caused knights to wear portions of their gear: Their greaves, cuisses, padded jupon, and arming cap, with panels of maille laced on to protect their arms, throat, and groin. This allowed them to quickly throw on their curiass (with attached spaulders), gauntlets, and helm: They could be ready to fight within seconds.
In places where battle could happen at any time, the knight wore his full kit except for the helm, shield, and possibly gauntlets. An open-faced bascinet might protect his head. Some were designed to fit under a great helm, while others had removable visors that could be quickly added to provide full face protection.