Eventually some SCA-guy will get on this thread and talk about the weight-distribution of armor and how easy it is to wear all day long.Well, not really...But they always do ;-P
Actually, go back and read your post and you'll notice that you basically validated the claim. Your main disagreement with wearing armor for extended periods was one of hygiene, not fatigue.
"Bearable" is not the same thing as "easy."
People in decent shape can wear/carry 30-100+ lbs of stuff for several hours a day, several days in a row, even while traveling and performing short bursts of strenuous activity (see multiple posts above regarding hiking, ruck-marches, etc.). No one is saying that it's "easy," only that it's possible in real life.
Also, IIRC, overland movement rates assume frequent meal/rest/water breaks (i.e., a 10 min rest period every hour). This is distinct from a "hustle/forced march," which does cause fatigue (at least in D&D 3.x/PF RPG).
I think the conversation about STR stats means that in essence you can carry the gear, however it is exhausting and draining and you wont be about to do it for too long, or do anything strenuous in it without your CON running out of gas.
Mud, wet weather, and a whole load of other natural phenomenon means that a prolonged journey through the wilds will see you with nasty sores (often getting infected) and a range of other hygiene/comfort issues.
Personally, I take claims of knights learning to run and jump and climb walls in full plate with a big grain of salt... the Middle Ages were certainly not known for their big base of buff body builders, more for the notion that they were generally smaller than the average person today - due to the quality of food, medicine, and a range of other advancements made in our general understanding of health.
All physical fitness and comfort aspects aside, there's also the notion that walking around town in your bling-bling full plate is probably going to attract a lot of unwanted attention - from the City Watch.
MY VIEW is that in a civilised environment, wearing anything heavier than light armour or carrying 'unreasonable' displays of weaponry will get the town militia fronting you in short order.
So yeah, there are going to be times when you just aren't going to be wearing Heavy Armour 24/7 - but that comes down to you and your playstyle.
Some people just dont like any realism in their fantasy, and thats fine, others of us obviously like it too much...
Some folk watch WWF style Wrasslin, some of us watch UFC.
As an aside: While we may reasonably argue aboout where the line between realism and heroic fantasy should be drawn, please be careful about engaging in flippant comments or sarcasm in the forums. Something intended as a humorous jab can come across very differently on the boards.
I like a lot of "gritty realism", but I'm willing to allow characters to wear their gear 24/7 if that's what the player prefers. He'll just have to explain how he overcomes the problems caused by his paranoid approach.
Bodkin-point arrows often failed to penetrate plate armor, but evidence suggests that they posed a substantial threat to any opponent within point-blank range (30 feet to 30 yards, depending who you ask). It's not directly related, but Miyamoto Musashi's Book of Five Rings recommended archers fight near the front ranks to ensure their arrows could penetrate.
Jousting harnesses weighing around 200 pounds (easily triple the weight of normal combat gear) seem to have been limited to those noblemen who absolutely, positively couldn't afford to be hurt in the lists. I suspect their opponents often found it politically wise to let their rulers win, as such gear must have encumbered both the horse and rider. More "normal" jousting armor weighed much less.
Based on archeological finds, the average fighting man of the Middle Ages was little smaller than modern men. While the average Medieval man was significantly smaller, European warriors tended to be around 5' 8" in height, a normal average for 19th-Century Americans and Europeans.
A knight was expected to be able to quickly remount if unhorsed. Typical training included mounting without using the stirrups and mounting without using the arms. The training of the time produced powerful arms and shoulders, but often neglected the legs.
As an aside: While we may reasonably argue aboout where the line between realism and heroic fantasy should be drawn, please be careful about engaging in flippant comments or sarcasm in the forums. Something intended as a humorous jab can come across very differently on the boards.
Not sure where that one is aimed at.
It's not directly related, but Miyamoto Musashi's Book of Five Rings recommended archers fight near the front ranks to ensure their arrows could penetrate.
Ahh Musashi; whilst being a fairly reasonable strategist, he was, first and foremost, a SWORDSMAN. I can have a few guesses what other motives he might have to see the archers deployed up close :p
That's how I view a lot of these stories of the feats of knights.
Indeed, I am prone to agree.
And swimming in Japanese armour might have been a tad easier when one considers the materials it was made of :p
... and some of us avoid all forms of TV "combat-tainment" and just head to the dojo to train a bit more :-)
See you there!
...but just before bed its a bit of telly, and I have a soft spot for 'reality based' fight shows.
I think the conversation about STR stats means that in essence you can carry the gear, however it is exhausting and draining and you wont be about to do it for too long, or do anything strenuous in it without your CON running out of gas.
This is something I meant to point out before but somehow forgot. High strength does not equal high endurance and this is at least partially illustrated in the rules by how much can be carried for extended periods versus how much can be picked up and held versus how much can be lifted. Sure, building up your strength will raise your constitution some as a natural side effect, but you still need to do endurance training as well if you want to be carrying heavy weight for long periods of time. How does it go in our modern gyms, weight lifting for strength and cardio for endurance?
|
FWIW, I think OP is a B-Type who has been hanging around As and can't get his head around the High-Fantasy aspect of it.
Yep. I like more gritty fantasy. Think Black Company or Raymond Feist. Also I don't mind "morally ambiguous" PC's who are still good aligned or lawful evil aligned heroes (I rescued the virgin, but I also murdered and tortured people to do it). I expect characters to be much tougher than the average joe and being capable of heroic level deeds, but I still like the "human" element to mundane things. Bringing enough water and food, not weighing yourself down too much. I could even go so far as making PC's drop their packs during the first round of combat or take a penalty on rolls until they do. But this is getting more off topic.
FWIW, however, the Japanese did have among their martial arts that...
Wow, that guy has a light saber!
And another thing unrealistic about plate armor, other than weight and maneuverability, was proved by the English longbowmen against the French knights. A single well-placed and powerful longbow arrow will kill you, even with all that armor.You refer, presumably, to the Battle of Agincourt.
Information on this point is conflicted, however. According to the Battlefield Detectives the contribution of the longbow was vastly overstated. In fact, the English-forged bodkin points of the time were made with a lower-grade iron than the recent metallurgical advances of French armor steel, and hence would generally have mushroomed on impact. The bodkin, though penetrating against lightly-armored foot soldiers, would not have been as effective as several other types of anti-personnel heads.
FWIW,
Rez
I saw that show, and they made a crucial mistake: they didn't temper the arrowheads. I've made bodkin points from pipe metal that penetrate 2mm of mild steel, from a half-drawn bow much lighter than a yew longbow. Joe and I tempered the bodkins and they were so hard he couldn't scratch them with a file. Yes, if the craftsman hadn't quenched the arrowtips for hardness, they might have mushroomed. But that's like saying that if you make a sword out of tin foil, it won't cut very well, so swords must not have been effective weapons.
As others have said, this is largely a difference in preference for feel and tone...and the core engine for PFRPG has some serious serious biases towards "Trampling Gods Clanking With Gear of W00t!"
A fourth level fighter typically has twice the hit points (12+7+8+7=34) as his horse (10+6=16), and can fall 60' without fear of injury. Attempting to 'fix' this problem means that all of the game preparation aids in the rules no longer work.
In the real world, there are two kinds of killing shots: A direct hit to the central nervous system or heart/lung apparatus, or a hit that bleeds out after about 20 minutes, with the person collapsing from shock and bloodloss somewhere around a quarter of the time needed to bleed out. Far more common are maiming injuries.
In historical periods, most cultures pretty much had 2-3 types of armor available, tops, and it was in the best interests of anyone who could A) afford it and B) afford the upkeep and C) afford an extra horse to carry it, to buy or wear the best of the line.
Gamers have no clue what a Medieval or early Renaissance economy looked like. Here's a quick example:
"Imagine that this (hold up a good joisting nail or a wood screw) cost $25. Each. And there was a 4 month waiting list to get them."
Most medieval societies needed 10-12 people working the fields for every person who got to live in a city. Ones on the coasts fared better - fish are richer in nutrition than grain, so you need about 8 people working the fishing boats for every person living in the city.
I enjoy playing quasi-realistic/historical fantasy, where Gandalf the Gray is a Mysterious Wizard, not a 5th level, indoor friendly source of haste spells and impromptu artillery. :) For that kind of game, I play GURPS in a low mana setting, or I negotiate with my fellow players, and we use Minimus.
My current face to face GM is trying to do that sort of thing with Pathfinder; it will probably stop working spectacularly around 8th level. :)
I don't even think there is much topic for debate here, as groups will hone in on the amount of realism that they think is fun. It is really only important to make sure that the GM and players basically agree what is fun. I think makng use of fatigue, exhaustion, and the Endurance feat is great. That and the donning/sleeping in armor rules. These things are there as a resource.
Anyway, to the servicemen weighing in on this, all I can say is thanks. You make us geeks look good by reminding everyone that this game is about heroism at a fundamental level. Cheers!
You make us geeks look good by reminding everyone that this game is about heroism at a fundamental level. Cheers!
Indeed, and we like the struggle before the glory, as it forges us into better men :)
...except the parts about shaving in a foxhole, I wish the RL GM could just handwave that part.
I think adventurers know when they're "adventuring" and when they're not. I don't think boogie-men jump out at them with great frequency. I do think that real-men wear bracers of armor in town, even if they are Fighters.Dude you have not been in the games I have been... Cities are where you go when you have to, because every freaking corner alley has some freak ready to ambush you.
Okay an exaggeration, but still, in most games I have been in, cities are NOT SAFE!
And really as far as realism goes and historically accurate goes... mmm MAGIC armor and MAGIC weapons, FIREBALLS, and ELVES and DWARVES!
Heeelllloooo not shooting for realistic nor accurate... shooting for fun!
:)
Your confused. We intentionally make changes from the rules of the real world, such as including the existance of gods, magic and dragons, none of which appear to exist in the real world. The inclusion of such things makes sense, they have internally consistant rules and don't threaten our suspencian of disbelief. If dragons start breathing out custard however, that does damage our suspencion of disbelief, because it is not playingf by the rules of what a dragon is.
But as your shooting for fun rather than realism, i have to ask, how do you feel about the inclusion of mecha in your current game?
There is such a thing as fantasy realism. Some setting allow PCs to put aside concerns such as how the rules of physics function for for normal people on a day to day basis, but most actually bother to explain how this occures. Why? Because it is very damaging for the suspencion of disbelief of many players for a PC to go to sleep in full plate armour, without ill effects.*
*for the record, i believe there are actually rules in 3.5 that cover sleeping in armour and make it a bad idea.
There is a penalty for sleeping in Medium or Heavy Armor.
Page 150 of Core Rulebook: "Sleeping in Armor: A character who sleeps in medium or heavy armor is automatically fatigued the next day. He takes a –2 penalty on Strength and Dexterity and can’t charge or run. Sleeping in light armor does not cause fatigue."
Just my 2 cp.
There is a penalty for sleeping in Medium or Heavy Armor.
Page 150 of Core Rulebook: "Sleeping in Armor: A character who sleeps in medium or heavy armor is automatically fatigued the next day. He takes
a –2 penalty on Strength and Dexterity and can’t charge or run. Sleeping in light armor does not cause fatigue."Just my 2 cp.
And the Endurance feat negates the Medium Armor fatigue penalty.
I think it's unrealistic to compare our "hobbyist" experiences with armor to men that were trained from a young age to wear it for long periods of time. To a knight or samurai etc, their armor was like a second skin. I've read books on the training of knights that descried how they had to stay in it for days at a time, even sleeping in it, to get them accustomed to the weight. And to make sure their body was totally accustomed to the armor for battle they probably wore it more often then not.
And as far as 'modern' vs. 'ancient' soldiers are concerned regarding str and con I would have to give it to the older generation. On a general health level, yeah we're healthier, but they would kick our butts in the strength and endurance categories. Back then they had to pretty much do everything the hard way. They used their bodies a hell of a lot more than we do today. We might be 'bigger' but we're also 'softer'.
I think it's unrealistic to compare our "hobbyist" experiences with armor to men that were trained from a young age to wear it for long periods of time. To a knight or samurai etc, their armor was like a second skin. I've read books on the training of knights that descried how they had to stay in it for days at a time, even sleeping in it, to get them accustomed to the weight. And to make sure their body was totally accustomed to the armor for battle they probably wore it more often then not.
There are plenty of historical accounts about how the armor was carried in baggage trains and strapped on just before a medieval battle. Recall that you're dealing with medieval logistics - these are people who are foraging for their meals, stealing chickens, eating whatever they can get out of the local residents.
Most of the people who made up the fyrd (medieval militia) were farmers, and when it was harvest time, armies melted away.
And as far as 'modern' vs. 'ancient' soldiers are concerned regarding str and con I would have to give it to the older generation. On a general health level, yeah we're healthier, but they would kick our butts in the strength and endurance categories. Back then they had to pretty much do everything the hard way. They used their bodies a hell of a lot more than we do today. We might be 'bigger' but we're also 'softer'.
This is demonstrably false. The people of Afghanistan use their bodies 'harder' every day - growing crops in Afghanistan with manual labor is backbreaking work with a very shallow payoff (it's why poppy fields for heroin are so popular; the same amount of work gets you a thousand-fold increase in money.)
You can take a look at modern Punjabi and Pashtun tribal warriors as being roughly equal to medieval soldiers with modern guns. There is no comparison to modern troops from a first world country, even discounting gear.
Modern US soldiers can run faster in full kit, run farther in full kit, are generally 2-3 inches taller, are generally about 30-40 lbs heavier, most of which is muscle mass, and the difference in training is enormous, and the difference in education is so vast that it beggars comprehension.
Another way that this is demonstrably false is looking at the NFL and its records. The Indianapolis Colts have what's called an 'undersized, quick strike' defense. EVERY SINGLE MEMBER of that defense is a good 30 lbs heavier, and often an inch taller, than vaunted Pittsburgh Steel Curtain defense of the 1970s.
Every single member of that defense can bench press more, can run faster, and can sustain the level of effort for a greater number of plays than the 1970s counterpart. Teams like the Baltimore Ravens are even more terrifying; it's why you really can't compare players from the 1950s to the 1970s and from the 1970s to the 1990s - every 20-25 years, the level of strength, conditioning and athleticism increases and the record books largely get rebuilt. We're seeing it again now.
All of that is from better nutrition, use of steroids, human growth hormone, and vastly better and more scientific training regimens. The players of today are stronger, faster, and can keep it up for longer than the players of former years.
Now, this doesn't mean that the hobbyists are better than the medieval counterparts. We aren't. I've taught the basics of sword work with live steel. I've worn historical replica armor from a couple periods.
During my most athletic year ever doing this, I probably spent about 600 hours in armor and working the pell posts - I was doing 4 hours of practice 4 days a week.
But it sure as heck wasn't my job, day in, and day out. It was less drill in full kit than modern soldiers wear for training and deployment.
And, all that said, those considerations really don't apply to Pathfinder.
I'm with AdAstra on this one.
I am also skeptical about all the claims of 24/7 full plate training etc that everyone seems so keen to press on with.
Consider that the average 'professional soldier' way back when wouldn't have had the funds nor capacity to get full plate armours, this means that such gear was only really available to the select few - and those few would have been people of significance - members of the Court etc.
The average footslogger was decked out in Medium armours, ie Chain, and often in significantly less than that. The Romans did it a little tough with the whole 'big shield' thing, but their field load was still on par with todays average Infantryman.
Prince Humperdink would also not be spending 24/7 training in all his armour, as that would certainly have created timetable clashes with the rest of his tutors teaching small stuff like literacy and vocational skills.
So where does this leave us in a game?
Well Mr Medium and Heavy armour may well sleep in the quilting he wore UNDER his mail (ie Padded Armour) but he's probably not sleeping in Medium/Heavy plate - as its going to be an awful nights sleep, and this will lead to a poorer state the next day when he is more likely to be fighting.
Unless they sited their camp poorly, there shouldn't be that many creatures staggering in looking for trouble.
On the reference to Samurai - They certainly weren't doing all that in O-Yoroi (weighing in at 30kg) but they may certainly have been doing it in the rather significantly lighter (and designed for freedom of movement) Do-Maru - but once again we are comparing Heavy v Medium armours. So the 'best in the world' comparisons are still only getting to Medium at best.
I think one of the main issues here is the difference between an adventurer and a soldier. (and everything after)
+1, Soldier life on a day-to-day basis was as boring as any other job, but with mandatory exercise and a camoflague uniform. Thankfully I never saw any combat myself. Someone(on these boards) once compared Adventurer's to adrenaline junkies who are basically ALWAYS looking for trouble, even if they don't start it... sounds about right to me.
Though having also been in the military I can agree with the Senmont's feelings. I didn't so much mind the heavy load: Weapon(s)/Ammo, Flak and Rucksack, it was damn Gas Mask drills/training that irritated me to no end. But you can bet your arse if I NEEDED to wear it, I'd slap that vision narrowing, asthmatic breathing, latex sweat monger of a device to my face as I was trained to do and live in it until told otherwise... eagerly awaiting the ALL CLEAR signal!
I think it's unrealistic to compare our "hobbyist" experiences with armor to men that were trained from a young age to wear it for long periods of time. To a knight or samurai etc, their armor was like a second skin. I've read books on the training of knights that descried how they had to stay in it for days at a time, even sleeping in it, to get them accustomed to the weight. And to make sure their body was totally accustomed to the armor for battle they probably wore it more often then not.There are plenty of historical accounts about how the armor was carried in baggage trains and strapped on just before a medieval battle. Recall that you're dealing with medieval logistics - these are people who are foraging for their meals, stealing chickens, eating whatever they can get out of the local residents.
Most of the people who made up the fyrd (medieval militia) were farmers, and when it was harvest time, armies melted away.
And as far as 'modern' vs. 'ancient' soldiers are concerned regarding str and con I would have to give it to the older generation. On a general health level, yeah we're healthier, but they would kick our butts in the strength and endurance categories. Back then they had to pretty much do everything the hard way. They used their bodies a hell of a lot more than we do today. We might be 'bigger' but we're also 'softer'.This is demonstrably false. The people of Afghanistan use their bodies 'harder' every day - growing crops in Afghanistan with manual labor is backbreaking work with a very shallow payoff (it's why poppy fields for heroin are so popular; the same amount of work gets you a thousand-fold increase in money.)
You can take a look at modern Punjabi and Pashtun tribal warriors as being roughly equal to medieval soldiers with modern guns. There is no comparison to modern troops from a first world country, even discounting gear.
Modern US soldiers can run faster in full kit, run farther in full kit, are generally 2-3...
Think what you will, but I just recently saw an anthropologist demonstrate ancient man's physical superiority. I'll try to look for a link but there are no promises. I recall one example of him measuring the length and depth of foot prints found in either Africa or Australia and calculated that the man who mad them would have left the 'modern fastest man in the world' in the dust. Let’s face it: 95% of modern Western people are pretty soft and would have a hard time keeping up with people who preformed heavy labor on a daily basis. So in the 'caveman vs. astronaut' combat scenario I would put my money on the cavemen.
I'll try to look for a link but there are no promises. I recall one example of him measuring the length and depth of foot prints found in either Africa or Australia and calculated that the man who mad them would have left the 'modern fastest man in the world' in the dust.
A tribal hunter gatherer would certainly have been a very fast runner, no doubt. Either he could run really fast, or he would go hungry (or fall victim) and die.
ANCIENT man lived this way, sure, but this is not C12 Europe guy.
The other thing is, Turbo-Feet Ancient man would have also weighed in at a whopping 80 pounds, and would have had a hard time lifting heavy weights. Google up some images of Marathon runners - they are small and light, and not made for heavy lifting.
What we are talking about (the grind of wearing stacks of armour AND balancing endurance) simply can't be done by such a guy.
http://dmc-news.tamu.edu/templates/?a=8232
here's a link to what I'm talking about.
Think what you will, but I just recently saw an anthropologist demonstrate ancient man's physical superiority. I'll try to look for a link but there are no promises. I recall one example of him measuring the length and depth of foot prints found in either Africa or Australia and calculated that the man who mad them would have left the 'modern fastest man in the world' in the dust. Let’s face it: 95% of modern Western people are pretty soft and would have a hard time keeping up with people who preformed heavy labor on a daily basis. So in the 'caveman vs. astronaut' combat scenario I would put my money on the cavemen.
Which is why the Boxer Rebellion expelled the Europeans from China in the 1890s in your timeline. When you came back from the dead, didn't they give you an updated time line locus for the differences between your history and the one you ended up in? :)
Human beings and their bodies are remarkably adapted for a wide range of things...but a Chimpanzee is about half the weight of Arnold Schwarzenegger, and about 7x as strong pound for pound.
Constant 'hard labor' results in the body breaking down in the late 20s to mid-30s. People who do constant hard labor into their 30s look like Westerners in their 50s. People who do constant hard labor into their 40s look like people in their 60s to us.
Talk to people who work in the building trades swinging hammers and carrying heavy loads - see how many of them stick past it once the warranty on the human body wears out.
Look at the careers of professional athletes to see what *well regulated* hard labor does to their bodies with protective gear.
As to the claims, based on 'depth of footprint and stride length' that Australopithecus was faster on a footrace than a modern human, I've seen them, read the original papers, and have some doubts. Australopithecus was remarkably well adapted to its environment...but that's still not the same environment as a medieval fyrdman using a spear and wearing studded leather to hold off the Sea raiders wearing chain and swinging long-axes.
We can find people who do hard labor all their lives in the modern world. Afghanistan. Africa. Indonesia. Malaysia. India. Lots of places have agricultural methods that are incredibly labor intensive.
None of them are being aggressively recruited to play professional sports or do Mixed Martial Arts, and US soldiers are trained to levels that are comparable (at the very least) to college level athletics, and SOCOM soldiers are trained at levels comparable to professional athletics.
Throughout history, the average 'full kit' for a soldier has been about 80 to 100 lbs, because that's about what a man can carry on his own for 10 hours a day with rest breaks and still keep in fighting condition.
One of my truisms when I teach people swordwork is that what I'm teaching them will, if taken to the extreme, lead to ligament damage and joint damage, muscle tears and more. By the time they master it, they'll be the most dangerous person with a game hip and a shoulder hitch on their block.
And what proper sword work does to your wrists and forearm muscles isn't polite discussion for anyone. It's like tennis elbow, if you're swinging a tennis racket that weighed twice as much and was balanced to be tip heavy.
|
Ah, Sean, why did you have to go and bring Rob into this? Now I have visions of Seoni twisting at multiple places along her torso, and Valerous having six fingers on one of his hands, and Harsk carrying a ballista instead of a crossbow . . .(Liefeld's characters are a perfect example of this).
I had to go google him to see who that was, found a top 40 worst list of his... thats 15 mins of my life I will never get back. So he's a professional artist huh? No wonder I like WR and others that paizo use.
I had to go google him to see who that was, found a top 40 worst list of his... thats 15 mins of my life I will never get back. So he's a professional artist huh? No wonder I like WR and others that paizo use.
I'm sorry I inadvertently led you down that accursed path. I used have added some suitably strong disclaimers as a warning . . . ;)
Think what you will, but I just recently saw an anthropologist demonstrate ancient man's physical superiority. I'll try to look for a link but there are no promises. I recall one example of him measuring the length and depth of foot prints found in either Africa or Australia and calculated that the man who mad them would have left the 'modern fastest man in the world' in the dust. Let’s face it: 95% of modern Western people are pretty soft and would have a hard time keeping up with people who preformed heavy labor on a daily basis. So in the 'caveman vs. astronaut' combat scenario I would put my money on the cavemen.Which is why the Boxer Rebellion expelled the Europeans from China in the 1890s in your timeline. When you came back from the dead, didn't they give you an updated time line locus for the differences between your history and the one you ended up in? :)
Human beings and their bodies are remarkably adapted for a wide range of things...but a Chimpanzee is about half the weight of Arnold Schwarzenegger, and about 7x as strong pound for pound.
Constant 'hard labor' results in the body breaking down in the late 20s to mid-30s. People who do constant hard labor into their 30s look like Westerners in their 50s. People who do constant hard labor into their 40s look like people in their 60s to us.
Talk to people who work in the building trades swinging hammers and carrying heavy loads - see how many of them stick past it once the warranty on the human body wears out.
Look at the careers of professional athletes to see what *well regulated* hard labor does to their bodies with protective gear.
As to the claims, based on 'depth of footprint and stride length' that Australopithecus was faster on a footrace than a modern human, I've seen them, read the original papers, and have some doubts. Australopithecus was remarkably well adapted to its environment...but that's still not the same environment as a medieval fyrdman using a spear and wearing studded...
It's all about conditioning and muscle memory. A lot of what you're talking relates to general health and longevity which I'm in no way debating: modern man lives longer and healthier lives. What I'm talking about is day to day strength and endurance. Modern man simply does not have to endure the rigors of our ancestor’s daily life and so we are soft in comparison. Most of us would not be able to keep up the pace if we were suddenly transported back in time.
I had to go google him to see who that was, found a top 40 worst list of his... thats 15 mins of my life I will never get back. So he's a professional artist huh? No wonder I like WR and others that paizo use.Ah, Sean, why did you have to go and bring Rob into this? Now I have visions of Seoni twisting at multiple places along her torso, and Valerous having six fingers on one of his hands, and Harsk carrying a ballista instead of a crossbow . . .(Liefeld's characters are a perfect example of this).
You can also spot a Liefeld by the way he draws faces, because they pretty much all look the same.
|
|
Not to take this off topic... anymore than it already is.
But all i remember about the gear as a US army soldier was at the age of 18 my total gear load nearly weighed as much as I did. I just remember that 10.. 12 mile? ruck march in basic. I forget how long it was but it felt like forever and a day to carry all that. Been many moons since i was in the military though.
But I on a personal note agree with the idea of adventures should not wear full armor constantly. We always did that armor wore you out and you could suffer from exhustion wearing it all day, so if you got ambushed late in the day you suffered for it. Plus you move slower taking you longer to get where you are headed.
So in our games most of the fighter types would have a set of light travel armor (chain shirt is popular) and then their heavy armor for when they go into the dungeons or if they know a fight is coming and change.
|
|
To the OP's response. I was in USMC recruiting pool in 1994, had tested in for MOS 2336 EOD tech. One month before ship to MCRD, I washed out due to some mental health issues. I still carry with me a lot of the USMC idiom, and amaze everyone that I remember NATO phonetics. And I still respect the Devildogs, because they've earned it.
Now to return to topic, I think I'll agree with a lot here on the thread. No one would WANT to wear that much gear ALL the time. Furthermore, some of the most dramatically tense moments in my games to this point have been when the party lets their guard down and gets jumped.
I had to go google him to see who that was, found a top 40 worst list of his... thats 15 mins of my life I will never get back. So he's a professional artist huh? No wonder I like WR and others that paizo use.Ah, Sean, why did you have to go and bring Rob into this? Now I have visions of Seoni twisting at multiple places along her torso, and Valerous having six fingers on one of his hands, and Harsk carrying a ballista instead of a crossbow . . .(Liefeld's characters are a perfect example of this).
Doh! I was unfortunate enough to be reading comics steadily back when he was with Marvel trying to pawn off his various character rip-offs on the masses. His artwork is hideous, one of the other threads has a link to a site (HERE) that rips on some pretty rediculous things like the ones KnightErrant mentioned, funny stuff. Someone definitely owes Dark Mistress 15 minutes.
It's all about conditioning and muscle memory. A lot of what you're talking relates to general health and longevity which I'm in no way debating: modern man lives longer and healthier lives. What I'm talking about is day to day strength and endurance. Modern man simply does not have to endure the rigors of our ancestor’s daily life and so we are soft in comparison. Most of us would not be able to keep up the pace if we were suddenly transported back in time.
You're comparing medieval peasants with office workers from the 21st.
I'm comparing modern US soldiers to medieval peasants because we actually have medieval peasants working in the world now, in places where US soldiers patrol.
Now, unless you're saying that Pashtun and Punjabi farmers, who plow fields with oxen, harvest things by hand, live at about 4,000 feet of altitude, and live in places with the most extreme climates on earth are 'Modern Man', and are softer and weaker than, say, a medieval peasant living much the same lifestyle in a pleasanter place, it looks like my comparison is valid:
Trained modern soldiers are in better shape, are stronger, have more endurance, than someone who spends 10 hours a day watching the south end of a north bound mule dragging a plow.
And trained modern soldiers, with those advantages, find wearing the equivalent of medium body armor and heavy encumbrance, annoying, irritating and frustrating.
Therefore, the historical accounts of soldiers going back to Babylon ditching bits of armor on a road march because it was heavy and they were tired of it are also probably valid, and the medieval peasant superhero who can wear a chainmail shirt for 24/7 is probably a D&Dism. :)
(The number of life or death fights a D&D character gets into over the course of a career is staggering when compared to real people, even real people who serve in a war zone.)
Shouldn't someone have brought up katanas by now?
|
|
Doh! I was unfortunate enough to be reading comics steadily back when he was with Marvel trying to pawn off his various character rip-offs on the masses. His artwork is hideous, one of the other threads has a link to a site (HERE) that rips on some pretty rediculous things like the ones KnightErrant mentioned, funny stuff. Someone definitely owes Dark Mistress 15 minutes.I had to go google him to see who that was, found a top 40 worst list of his... thats 15 mins of my life I will never get back. So he's a professional artist huh? No wonder I like WR and others that paizo use.Ah, Sean, why did you have to go and bring Rob into this? Now I have visions of Seoni twisting at multiple places along her torso, and Valerous having six fingers on one of his hands, and Harsk carrying a ballista instead of a crossbow . . .(Liefeld's characters are a perfect example of this).
Yeah that was the top 40 list I was talking about.
It's all about conditioning and muscle memory. A lot of what you're talking relates to general health and longevity which I'm in no way debating: modern man lives longer and healthier lives. What I'm talking about is day to day strength and endurance. Modern man simply does not have to endure the rigors of our ancestor’s daily life and so we are soft in comparison. Most of us would not be able to keep up the pace if we were suddenly transported back in time.You're comparing medieval peasants with office workers from the 21st.
I'm comparing modern US soldiers to medieval peasants because we actually have medieval peasants working in the world now, in places where US soldiers patrol.
Now, unless you're saying that Pashtun and Punjabi farmers, who plow fields with oxen, harvest things by hand, live at about 4,000 feet of altitude, and live in places with the most extreme climates on earth are 'Modern Man', and are softer and weaker than, say, a medieval peasant living much the same lifestyle in a pleasanter place, it looks like my comparison is valid:
Trained modern soldiers are in better shape, are stronger, have more endurance, than someone who spends 10 hours a day watching the south end of a north bound mule dragging a plow.
And trained modern soldiers, with those advantages, find wearing the equivalent of medium body armor and heavy encumbrance, annoying, irritating and frustrating.
Therefore, the historical accounts of soldiers going back to Babylon ditching bits of armor on a road march because it was heavy and they were tired of it are also probably valid, and the medieval peasant superhero who can wear a chainmail shirt for 24/7 is probably a D&Dism. :)
(The number of life or death fights a D&D character gets into over the course of a career is staggering when compared to real people, even real people who serve in a war zone.)
I was a Hospital Corpsman for 3 of my 7 years in the Navy so I know what it's like to carry heavy loads. But today’s military relies heavily on transports to get troops where they're going. Sure they might have to march a day or two to get into more rough terrain, but that doesn't compare to ancient armies having to march hundreds or even thousands of miles--the Mexican army marched over 800 miles before the Alamo. So I'd be dropping stuff to if I had to march that far.
Yeah that was the top 40 list I was talking about.
Doh! I was unfortunate enough to be reading comics steadily back when he was with Marvel trying to pawn off his various character rip-offs on the masses. His artwork is hideous, one of the other threads has a link to a site (HERE) that rips on some pretty rediculous things like the ones KnightErrant mentioned, funny stuff. Someone definitely owes Dark Mistress 15 minutes.
Oops, sorry about that, didn't mean to further the torture.
|
|
Oops, sorry about that, didn't mean to further the torture.Yeah that was the top 40 list I was talking about.
Doh! I was unfortunate enough to be reading comics steadily back when he was with Marvel trying to pawn off his various character rip-offs on the masses. His artwork is hideous, one of the other threads has a link to a site (HERE) that rips on some pretty rediculous things like the ones KnightErrant mentioned, funny stuff. Someone definitely owes Dark Mistress 15 minutes.
He is just a really really horrible artist. I just can't believe he makes a living at being a artist with drawings like that. Granted I can't even draw stick figures but still.
Shouldn't someone have brought up katanas by now?
*grin* What, it's a bastard sword used one handed?
I suppose someone will bring up the chestnut about how they were used to slice off machine gun barrels in WWII, too.
When I make make melee characters, I usually have them have a warhorse, a riding horse and a pack horse.
The Mexican army that besieged the Alamo didn't haul cannons on their backs; they had wagons and horses doing most of the carriage work.
Medieval armies used horses and oxen when they could.
Modern soldiers in Afghanistan don't always get to ride in vehicles; they do in Iraq because Iraq has these marvelous innovations called 'roads'. With pavement and drainage.
Pashtuns and Punjabis regard strange foreign concepts like paved roads with deep suspicion, because it means vehicles are going fast enough to outrun ambushes.
Sean also goofed up on the Alias bit. If you read the book, yes, that actually IS chain +3, and the protective effect is actually centered over the, um, 'gap'. At least twice during the story, people attempt to stab the 'open area' and the blow is deflected aside.
Kinda like Batman wearing that big target on his chest for people to shoot at...with the kevlar backing it.
==
As for adventuers, in anything resembling a 'real world', the #1 magic item for all adventurers, and most soldiers, would be a Ring of Sustenance.
Unlimited energy...no food or water to carry...two hours of sleep a night. Let's not talk about what an extra six hours of activity would do, but not having to forage or carry victuals would be a freaking godsend, and only having to rest two hours to be firm and fit again? totally awesome.
Mix it with Endure Elements and you can set aside anything resembling weather and temperature concerns, too.
IN my experience, Adventurers will try to keep their armor on as often a possible. Why? Because someone is waiting to either a) attack them as soon as they take off their best protection or b) steal it when they aren't wearing it. Seriously, would you rather attack the paladin when he's in his plate+5 or when he's in civvies with a +4 mage armor from a spellcaster providing all his protection?
Lesser bracers of mage armor make a nicely discreet way to keep some AC, but the whole 'armor issue' is one reason why people often build to dex and light armor, so they can avoid the penalties and keep their AC.
==Aelryinth
Shouldn't someone have brought up katanas by now?
They ARE only the best sword EVER, and completely underpowered in D20...
In my experience, Adventurers will try to keep their armor on as often a possible. Why? Because someone is waiting to either a) attack them as soon as they take off their best protection or b) steal it when they aren't wearing it. Seriously, would you rather attack the paladin when he's in his plate+5 or when he's in civvies with a +4 mage armor from a spellcaster providing all his protection?
Magical armor really does not fit into this discussion, seeing as how one of the standard properties, at least in all my games, is that magical armor weighs less than the mundane version. So that +5 plate would weigh about 1/5 the weight of non-magical plate.
Magic items that alter warfare in D&D are easy to find.
A cauldron that could create food and water - or even purify water - so changes the logistical constraints of a medieval army (or defending city) that it's hard to map out all the changes.
Katanas are only superior in relative beauty and at performing drawing cuts. The shape of the blade and the extremely sharp edge allow for extremely deep cuts when it is drawn along a target. The chisel point allows for adequate thrusting, though thrusts are awkward with a katana, and the weight distribution of the blade is completely wrong for hewing. In addition, the sharpness of the edge made it very brittle, and indeed there are records of katanas breaking when striking hard armor during the invasion of Korea in the 1500s. In contrast, the bastard sword of the 15th C. could thrust, hew, slice, and was made to batter against plate armor without shattering.
Irony, thy name is katana.
[katana] ARE only the best sword EVERWell, Damascus steel was pretty good stuff, and the Vikings made excellent blades as well.
The great irony is that the "best" swords were produced in places that had the "worst" quality iron ore. The low-grade ore forced the smiths to make great advances in metallurgy, one of which was the technique of folding and hammering to eliminate high levels of impurities, with the increased strength and quality of the blades a serendipitous byproduct of that process.
R.
I don't know anything about swords, other than they're sharp pointy metal bits made to jab people.