An overall assessment of the Oracle


Round 1: Cavalier and Oracle


The Oracle being a spontaneous divine caster lends itself to a comparison to the Cleric much as Sorcerer does to Wizard.

Looking at the overall balance of the oracle vs cleric:

BAB - equal
Saves - Cleric better Fort
Skills - Oracle
Weapons and armor - Cleric gets Medium armor and Deity's weapon.

Cleric's get Channel Energy. Oracles get Focus Revelations. I'll call this about even between flexibility, usefulness and power.

Oracle's curse balances out about equal to domain granted abilities.

Clerics get 2 domains to pick bonus spells from but only get to cast 1 domain spell per day. Oracles only get bonus spells from one focus, but can use all their slots for that level to cast them. Close, possibly slight edge to Oracle.

Spell casting -

Clerics get entire spell list known but fewer spells per day - Oracles get more spells per day, but limited spells known.

Clerics get spontaneous cure/inflict. This is actually a big plus for the Cleric because while the Oracle is a spontaneous caster, they must choose cure/inflict spells for their limited number of spells known to cast them.

The Cleric's flexibility of spell selection (boosted by spontaneous cure/inflict) really offsets the Oracle's spells per day advantage and puts them clearly ahead on the spell casting

The biggest weakness I see in the Oracle class is a combination of the spell list and limited number of spells known. The Cleric spell list is chock full of very situational spells. Tying up one of your few spells known on something you may use 1 in 15 encounters is a major drawback.

The extreme solution would be to allow spontaneous casting from the entire spell list, but this would be too good. What I would propose is to allow the Oracle to select a number of spells known each day as per the current table selecting from the entire cleric spell list. I understand this would make them more flexible that the cleric, but would fit in thematically with the whole "oracles see the future" concept and the idea of Oracles (battle focus excepted) being less martial than Clerics.

As for the lack of certain types of spells that are needed for the benefits of some of the foci, I recall Jason already stating that appropriate spells would be added. Granted, depending on the number and nature of the spells added, the limitations of the Cleric spell list may become a moot point.

I won't nitpick options based on my own preferences and play style. I find the class playable and consider the spell selection the only outstanding issue with the class, and even that is not quite crippling and relatively easily addressed.


Freesword wrote:
Cleric's get Channel Energy. Oracles get Focus Revelations. I'll call this about even between flexibility, usefulness and power.

I'm sorry, what?

Clerics get to heal *roughly* 35 hit points to each party member 3+CHA times per day at 20th level, or they can hurt enemies and heal undead the same amount. This is laughable, and pretty much only takes the edge off of having to heal up your party.

Now, what do oracles get?

  • Full access to several spells not on their class list; not the 1/day domain thing clerics are dealing with.
  • Battle Oracles get access to fighter proficiencies, combat maneuver abilities worth their salt, access to stoneskin without having to pay the material component, and initiative options that rival Diviners.
  • Bone Oracles get easy access to DR/bludgeoning, the ability to heal via negative energy, the ability to become incorporeal, and command undead based on their primary stat.
  • Flame Oracles get easy access to fly, great boosts to their maneuverability, groovy scrying abilities, elemental shape on par with a druid, energy resistance, and free elemental weapons.
  • Stone Oracles get easy access to energy resistance, ranged trip attempts via spells and trip bonuses, the ability to see through stone, earth glide, the ability to sunder weapons that attack you, and free elemental weapons.
  • Waves Oracles gain defense bonuses, the ability to traverse water with little effort, easy access to DR/piercing, energy resistance, baleful polymorph with a scaling DC, elemental shape similar to a druid, the ability to see through fog/mist (including obscurring mist) as well as scry easily, and free elemental weapons.
  • Wind Oracles have access to 50% concealment vs. all ranged attacks, gaseous form & invisiblity broken up as they see fit, elemental resistance, the ability to deafen enemies a few times per day (thus affecting spellcasting ability), free elemental weapons, the ability to stagger enemies whom you crit with spells, and easy access to fly.

How is that on par with 35 healing to your allies a few times a day?


At level 20, foci are better then rebuking, but at level one, for most foci, it's the other way around.

I'm not sure why we're comparing foci to rebuking, though. Foci and revelations are the themed abilities that grant extra spells known, and are as such a much closer parallel to domains.

by that comparison, clerics get two domains, but an oracle can choose only a single focus. At later levels revelations will have a stronger impact then most domain granted powers, but at early levels that's questionable. Oracles have free access to their foci spells, but Clerics have access to two domains, making it far more likely that they'll have a useful choice of domain spell for each level. By comparison many of the oracle foci spell lists are half filled with highly situational spells. On top of everything else, a cleric gains access to their domain spells as soon as they have access to spells of that level. Not only to Oracles have to wait an extra level to attain a new spell level, but they have to wait another level yet to gain access to their bonus focus spell. So an oracle doesn't gain their 5th level focus spell until a cleric is capable of casting 6th level spells, including their choice of two domain spells.

So oracle revelations will eventually be better then cleric domain granted powers, but the spell casting aspects, like all spellcasting comparisons between oracle and cleric, greatly favor the cleric class.

Frankly, limited spells known vs. knows the full spell list, when the spell list in question is so full of situational spells likely to come up only once or twice a campaign, but certain to be really really necessary when they do come up, just cripples the oracle by comparison to the cleric, who again can spontaneously cast cure spells anyway.

With the possible exception of the battle focus oracle, who's focus abilities are actually good.

I do like the idea of choosing new spells known every day, though, with perhaps fewer spells known then a sorcerer.


Sean FitzSimon wrote:
Freesword wrote:
Cleric's get Channel Energy. Oracles get Focus Revelations. I'll call this about even between flexibility, usefulness and power.

I'm sorry, what?

Clerics get to heal *roughly* 35 hit points to each party member 3+CHA times per day at 20th level, or they can hurt enemies and heal undead the same amount. This is laughable, and pretty much only takes the edge off of having to heal up your party.

Now, what do oracles get?

  • Full access to several spells not on their class list; not the 1/day domain thing clerics are dealing with.
  • Battle Oracles get access to fighter proficiencies, combat maneuver abilities worth their salt, access to stoneskin without having to pay the material component, and initiative options that rival Diviners.
  • Bone Oracles get easy access to DR/bludgeoning, the ability to heal via negative energy, the ability to become incorporeal, and command undead based on their primary stat.
  • Flame Oracles get easy access to fly, great boosts to their maneuverability, groovy scrying abilities, elemental shape on par with a druid, energy resistance, and free elemental weapons.
  • Stone Oracles get easy access to energy resistance, ranged trip attempts via spells and trip bonuses, the ability to see through stone, earth glide, the ability to sunder weapons that attack you, and free elemental weapons.
  • Waves Oracles gain defense bonuses, the ability to traverse water with little effort, easy access to DR/piercing, energy resistance, baleful polymorph with a scaling DC, elemental shape similar to a druid, the ability to see through fog/mist (including obscurring mist) as well as scry easily, and free elemental weapons.
  • Wind Oracles have access to 50% concealment vs. all ranged attacks, gaseous form & invisiblity broken up as they see fit, elemental resistance, the ability to deafen enemies a few times per day (thus affecting spellcasting ability), free elemental weapons, the ability to stagger enemies whom you crit with spells, and easy access to fly.

...

In the end the Oracle appears to be better with their revelations when compared to Channel Energy. The thing is getting to 20th level though. Right now at low level Channel Energy is much better than the two revelations that Oracle gets by 3rd Level. In my game it's a Battle focus Oracle who took the Skill at Arms and Weapon Mastery revelations. Weapon mastery appears to be weak as revelation as you don't really get any use of it till level 8 and 12. Weapon focus for revelation is kind of weak as that's a feat you could just normally take anyways. Might be better if Weapon Mastery gave you Weapon Specialization as well at 4th level.


I haven't played the Oracle any yet, but I did play a similiar class--the Dragonlance Mystic--quite a few times. The Mystic is very similar, getting the same spell progression and spells known progression but getting a single domain and access to those domain spells, resulting in the same amount of overall spells known as the Oracle.

That being said, I think the Oracle looks like a very playable class.

What I noticed with the Mystic is that I would be much more focused in my spell casting, and was much much better at those spells than the Cleric was. Why? Because I could call upon any of those spells as needed, and the Cleric would have to have it prepared. If he didn't have it prepared or had already cast it he was out of luck.

Having played lots of clerics too, I can say that the Oracle with the right spell selection would be a better healer than a cleric, at least at higher levels. Why? Because the Oracle can spontaneously spam heals and mass heals if he took those spells. Most clerics will prepare one, maybe two heal spells a day. Now, until 6th level spells come along, the cleric will be better, but after that the Oracle will be better.

This also comes up with those spells that clerics almost always prepare, such as Freedom of Movement and Deathward. How many FoM's does a cleric have prepared every day? I found that the ability to spontaneously cast as many of those as needed to be invaluable. Far more so than the ability to prepare restoration the following day. (Having enough FoMs for the entire party can be the difference between people living and people dying; not having restoration means having to spend resources to find somebody who can cast it.)

Also, at higher levels, the cleric spell list thins out considerably. There just aren't that many spells most clerics will prepare, and the spell lists will tend to look pretty much the same. The Oracle can spam any of those powerful spells, such as Holy Word and Holy Aura. And don't get me started on spontaneous Miracles.

Oracles, like the sorcerer, also benefit more from metamagic. Extend spell is sick in the hands of a spontaneous divine caster. With that feat, a high level Oracle will almost always have FoM and Airwalk active
during waking hours. A cleric doesn't have the slots free to do that.

Now what it comes down to is, like with the sorcerer, what spells does an Oracle know. He'll generally want a few healing spells (I would generally take cure light and switch it out to sure moderate at higher levels to take advantage of the increased caster level cap. I'd almost always take mass cure light as well.) and that will eat up some of his lower level spell slots. But once the mid levels come around, the Oracle will come into his own, having enough spells to keep the party healthy, but also able to do the things he needs to do.

What you'd see is a properly built Oracle being better at what hes focused in (get it?) than a cleric. And this is just like the difference between a sorcerer and a wizard. Notwithstanding the Battle focus, an Oracle built for battle will outshine the cleric, thanks to spontaneously cast divine powers and righteous mights. The Oracle can walk into almost every encounter with either or both of those spells active; the Cleric will have to pick and choose his encounters. An Oracle focused on Summoning can spam his summons, a cleric simply cannot do this. An Oracle can blast greater dispel magics as needed, a cleric will only have one or two of these prepared each day.

Now if the question is which is better or more powerful, then probably the answer is Cleric. The channel ability is nothing to sneeze at, and effectively works out as free castings of the highest level Mass Cure spell the cleric has access to. (Mass Cure Critical at 20th lvl does avg. 38, Channel at 20th does avg. 35). The better fort save is big too. And being wisdom focused instead of charisma focused tends to be better in terms of game mechanics (better will save, better perception check), although I would actually prefer the charisma focus (better social skills). I'd also note that a Paladin 2/Oracle X with the battle focus can be a seriously deadly do-gooder thanks to the Charisma focus.

So all in all, I think that the Oracle is a pretty well laid out class. It has benefits and drawbacks relative to the cleric, but its in no way a weak class. And if put together well it could be quite powerful.


In the camp i'm currently playing in we have an oracle. at first glance i thought it was a damn good class, maybe not equal to the cleric in healing but useful none the less. i was very wrong. the character is 2 levels ahead of the rest of the party and has repeatedly run out of things to do, except hit it with a crossbow. it reminded me of a first level, 2nd edition wizard, "I cast magic missile" then i shoot at it with a crossbow while the rest of the party kills it.

i felt sorry for the player who was frustrated with the lack of options. to add to it, if she used her spells for anything except healing the party needed to wait days before being fully healed. we spent two days on the top floor of a building in a zombie filled city, because she couldn't even take out the zombies like a cleric could.

the class turned out to be below average.


Freesword wrote:

Cleric's get Channel Energy. Oracles get Focus Revelations. I'll call this about even between flexibility, usefulness and power.

Oracle's curse balances out about equal to domain granted abilities.

I'd like to say that nothing the Oracle gets is really up there with Channel Energy.

The oracle's revelations are generally on par with the Cleric's domain-granted abilities once you get into middle levels. The oracle's curse is about on par with these abilities as well when you're in middle levels.

But right now, a 1st level oracle having any of the curses provides a minor benefit to a very large detriment. It isn't exactly a bonus. Let's assume they're battle and they took Skill at Arms as their first rev, so now they can use a martial weapon and maybe scale mail. Meanwhile, the cleric gets to enjoy the same bonuses (hide armor, scale mail, a martial weapon).

While an oracle can do like 4 cure light wounds per day, the cleric can just channel for 1d6 to each party member 3+CHA per day. Assuming the party consists of the standard 4 players, the oracle, rolling max, could get 36 healing on the entire party. Each heal of 9 takes his whole standard. If the cleric had a charisma mod of 2, he could roll a 3 5 times in a row and do 15x4=60 healing, taking only one more standard action than the oracle. That's just throughput. In-combat healing is more valuable when you need bigger numbers, and then the cleric still shines through because still has his spell slots and can then turn them into cures. The oracle just takes swipes with his weapon.

Oracles just aren't built for healing and keep being compared to clerics in terms of that-- they shouldn't be, because Clerics are still marginally more suited for most of the roles you might use an Oracle for, save the Fire, Wind and Waves foci. Through first to maybe 7th level an Oracle really falls flat compared to a cleric in terms of healing and spell usage, and after that high point of 7th level the Oracle doesn't recover from not gaining the Cleric's domain-granted abilities. The Oracle falls flat again until 11th or 15th when they can gain revelations like Iron Skin or Blizzard and their curse's penalties stop outweighing their benefits.

And then they have bad fort, and light armor.

Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Playtests & Prerelease Discussions / Advanced Player's Guide Playtest / Round 1: Cavalier and Oracle / An overall assessment of the Oracle All Messageboards
Recent threads in Round 1: Cavalier and Oracle
A Cavalier's Oaths