Reverse the ridden and Topper the Eidolon... re-posted.
1. Reverse buffs himself with mage armor, heroism, barkskin, and sometimes greater magic fang(for a +1 on all his natural weapons). He puts mage armor and heroism on topper. All these buffs last at least 10min/CL.
2. Reverse crafts and has the hedgemage trait and thus he will get more out of his wbl than a non-crafter.
3. Reverse uses PaO to turn into a huge dragon. Something PaO is not very specific on. Anyway, getting the spell cast costs 1200 gp and having its duration doubled by having someone cast arcane concordance costs another 210 gp. His current bonuses assume he gets the usual benefits one gets for turning into a huge dragon. I might also post a half elf build that turns into an a huge animal since PaO has specific rules for that.
4. also I had to pick up improved unarmed strike through an item. If this is not ok with people, then you can just imagine poor toppy getting AoO'd a bit. This item is a deep red ioun stone inserted into a wayfinder. This is from the source seekers of secrets.
reverse the ridden kobold summoner:
Lvl 10 reverse the ridden kobold summoner( PaO’d into Adult Blue Dragon)
Str 14-4racial+10size+2enhancement=22
Dex 10+2racial=12
Con 12-2racial+8 size+2 enhancement=20
Int 15+1lvls=16
Wis 8
Cha 13 +1lvls=14
HP=8+4.5*9+50=98.5
AC=10+4 mage armor+2 shield ally+1 dex +12NA(8 from being a dragon and 4 from barkskin) -2 size=27
Fortitude save=3 base+5 con+2circumstance from shield ally=+10(+12 w/heroism)
Reflex=3 base+1 dex+2 circumstance from shield ally =+6(+8 w/heroism)
Will save= 7 base+-1+2 circumstance from shield ally =+8(+10 w/heroism)
fly speed 120ft
Skills:fly(+11) use magic device(+15), spellcraft(+16),knowledge:arcane and planes(+16),
Bab=7 to hit=13, +1 gmf,+1 when hasted,+2 heroism,
+16 Bite=2d8+ 9, +16 claws= 2d6+6, +14 wings=d8+3, +14 tail slap=2d6+9
+3 when using arcane strike
Breath weapon= 12d8 electricity, dc 24 reflex save for half 100 ft line or 50ft cone
Feats:arcane strike(swift action for +3 damage), craft wondrous item,ability focus(breath weapon), multiattack.
Traits: hedge magician(crafted items cost 5% less), reactionary.
Spells known
1st(6 uses) lvl: mage armor, shield, enlarge person, expeditious retreat, rejuvenate eidolon.
2nd(5 uses) lvl: barkskin, haste, invisibility, protection from arrows, resist energy
3rd(3 uses) lvl: enlarge person(mass), heroism, stoneskin, greater magic fang.
4th(1 use) lvl:, overland flight, greater evolution surge
Equipment(50975 out of 62k spent plus 1200 spent on PaO): ioun stone of con+2, ioun stone of str+2(3.8k)
reverse the half elf summoner:
Lvl 10 reverse the ridden half-elf summoner(Permanently PaO’d into a Mastadon)
Str 14+6sizet=20
Dex 10-4size=6
Con 12+2racial+2 enhancement=14
Int 15+1lvls=16
Wis 8
Cha 13 +1lvls=14
HP=8+4.5*9+20=68.5
AC=10+4 mage armor+2 shield ally-2 dex +10NA(6 from being a mastadon and 4 from barkskin)-2 size=22
Fortitude save=3 base+2 con+2circumstance from shield ally=+7(+9 w/heroism)
Reflex=3 base-2 dex+2 circumstance from shield ally+1 trait =+4(+6 w/heroism)
Will save= 7 base+-1+2 circumstance from shield ally =+8(+10 w/heroism)
fly speed 40ft when buffed with overland flight.
Skills:fly(+19) use magic device(+15), spellcraft(+16),knowledge:arcane and planes(+16),
Bab=7 to hit=13, +1 gmf,+1 when hasted,+2 heroism,
Melee gore +13 (2d8+6), slam +13 (2d6+6)
+3 when using arcane strike
To hit and damage increased when buffed with gmf.
Trample attack(dc=21 reflex save or take 2d8+9 damage)
Spells known
1st(6 uses) lvl: mage armor, shield, enlarge person, expeditious retreat, rejuvenate eidolon.
2nd(5 uses) lvl: barkskin, haste, invisibility, protection from arrows, resist energy
3rd(3 uses) lvl: enlarge person(mass), heroism, stoneskin, greater magic fang.
4th(1 use) lvl:, overland flight, greater evolution surge
Equipment(53825 out of 62k spent plus 1200 spent on PaO): ioun stone of con+2, 1 lesser rod of silent spell(1425), 1 rod of silent spell(5225)
topper:
Topper the Quadraped Eidolon:
Str 26+2lvls+4enhancement=32
Dex 16+2 enhancement=18
Con 17
Int 7
Wis 10
Cha 11
Hp=8*5.5+24=68 avg
AC= 10+4 dex+12 NA+ 4 mage armor-1 size+1monk=30
Natural Armor(2 base+8 from lvls+ 2 large evolution)
Fortitude=6 base+3 con+3 resistance=+12
Reflex= 6 base+4 dex+3 res=+13
Will= 2 base+3 res =+5(7/w heroism, 11 /w devotion)
Bab=8
To hit=8bab+11str+2morale+1for being mounted-2 mwf=+20
Main hand Gauntlet attack=2d6+d6 shock+13=23.5
Off hand Gauntlet attack= 2d6+d6 shock+7=17.5
Bite attack=d8+d6shock+7=15
Skills=Ride(+20), Stealth(+11), Sense Motive(+12), Craft:exotic saddes(+9)
Evolutions: large, skilled(ride), pounce, limbs: armsx3, simple weapon prof
Feats: Two-weapon fighting(replaced by when he gets more than 2 arms), mounted combat,ride-by-attack, spirited charge, and improved unarmed strike(free from wayfinder).
Equipment: shocking Amulet of mighty fists +2(21,375), monk’s robe(6,175),cloak of resistence+3(4275gp), belt of giant strength+4(7.6k), wayfinder with deep red ioun stone inserted(4k), 4 pairs of mundane gauntlets(16gp), personally crafted military exotic saddle(30gp).
Topper stays the same with either summoner. The half elf has 2 extra evolution points but he needs to spend those on his aspect to get arms when he is an elephant. An Elf could turn into a huge dragon for 2 weeks at a time if he has PaO extended and thus his eidolon build could have 2 more evolution points to work with. Most likely those points would just go to getting the eidolon 2 more arms.
Either way, I re-present my mounted eidolon build be he riding a dragon or a flying elephant. The earlier dpr calculation is still mostly accurate. I am thinking of posting an additional dpr calculation that has dpr without the +1 to hit against targets smaller than my mount just so we know what the dpr is against huge and bigger enemies.
topper dpr:
Topper's to hit bonus=8bab+11str+2morale-2 mwf+2when charging=+21
Main hand Gauntlet damage=2d6+d6 shock+13=23.5
Off hand Gauntlet damage= 2d6+d6 shock+7=17.5
Bite damage=d8+d6shock+7=15
All of the above are doubled on a mounted charge.
DPR of Topper on mounted pounce w/heroism and against large or smaller opponents:
+22/17 main hand gauntlet attacks
.95*47+.05*.95*70.5= 47.998
.70*47+.05*.7*70.5=35.367
DPR of Topper on mounted pounce w/heroism against huge or bigger opponents:
21/16 main hand gauntlet attacks
.9*47+.05*.9*70.5= 45.473
.65*47+.05*.65*70.5=32.84
DPR of Topper on mounted pounce w/heroism,haste, and against large or smaller opponents:
23/23/18 main hand gauntlet attack
.95*47+.05*.95*70.5= 47.998
.75*47+.05*.75*70.5=37.894
Looks a lot better. Now I still have issues with the wealth by level (which I maintain is total wealth by level, not "double this by crafting yourself" -- after all wealth by level doesn't care how you got what you did -- only that you have it).
I'll point out (again) that with the gauntlets topper doesn't need improved unarmed strike, and the gauntlets interacting with the amulet of mighty fist has been an issue to some in the past (not an argument I want to really get into -- I'm simply mentioning it for purpose of thoroughness).
All in all a much better post up.
Some points for general consideration:
1. Spells from outside sources are generally considered a "no-no" however it is possible to have scrolls or what not -- simply expensive.
2. This looks a lot like some pass druid builds where the druid would wild shape into a ride able form and have his animal companion be something that could ride him. it's also similar in general principle to my Camel Bob a few pages back.
Looks a lot better. Now I still have issues with the wealth by level (which I maintain is total wealth by level, not "double this by crafting yourself" -- after all wealth by level doesn't care how you got what you did -- only that you have it).
I can understand what you are trying to say. IE wealth by level is a balancing factor and a GM can modify his handouts to accomplish the total wealth he wants regardless of whether crafting happens or not.
But. I find the intent behind crafting is 2 things.
1. You get to make what you want instead of being at the mercy of the GM and what he decides to hand you or have readily available to ye old magic store.
2. Crafting often costs half as much as buying.
Considering they also made the hedgemage trait(whose only purpose is lowering the cost of crafting items), there is some clear intent that crafting should get you more equipment than can regularly be achieved with your total WBL.
You are expending several feats toward this goal so some benefit should exist.
Now I can understand that buying spellcasting services is usually frowned upon, but if the duration the buff is permanent or long term(ie 2 weeks) then I can see it being similar to buying equipment or getting permanency cast on you.
I had already posted a regular eidolon dpr build in this thread. This one was more of a April fools joke so the first build post was quickly written up. I was definitely expecting more chuckles than serious line by line examinations.
This is what I get for not going with the elephant example first.
Anyway, as they say, "In Mother Russia, Eidolon rides you."
and not to nitpick since Abraham spading didn't bring it up. but I was to understand pounce didn't interact very well with mounted combat. ant least it was suggested it didn't. but this may be a question for the rules forum.
Looks a lot better. Now I still have issues with the wealth by level (which I maintain is total wealth by level, not "double this by crafting yourself" -- after all wealth by level doesn't care how you got what you did -- only that you have it).
I can understand what you are trying to say. IE wealth by level is a balancing factor and a GM can modify his handouts to accomplish the total wealth he wants regardless of whether crafting happens or not.
But. I find the intent behind crafting is 2 things.
1. You get to make what you want instead of being at the mercy of the GM and what he decides to hand you or have readily available to ye old magic store.
2. Crafting often costs half as much as buying.
Considering they also made the hedgemage trait(whose only purpose is lowering the cost of crafting items), there is some clear intent that crafting should get you more equipment than can regularly be achieved with your total WBL.
You are expending several feats toward this goal so some benefit should exist.
Now I can understand that buying spellcasting services is usually frowned upon, but if the duration the buff is permanent or long term(ie 2 weeks) then I can see it being similar to buying equipment or getting permanency cast on you.
I had already posted a regular eidolon dpr build in this thread. This one was more of a April fools joke so the first build post was quickly written up. I was definitely expecting more chuckles than serious line by line examinations.
This is what I get for not going with the elephant example first.
Anyway, as they say, "In Mother Russia, Eidolon rides you."
Some DM's allow you to bypass WBL and some don't. In some games the crafting benefit is that you get custom made items. It varies from DM to DM. In this DPR thread certain rules were establish. We can't make you follow the rules, but there will be an asterisk besides your builds if you don't.
You also need the mount evolution for the eidolon to be a mount.
Quote:
Mount (Ex)
An eidolon is properly skilled and formed to serve as a combat-trained mount. The eidolon must be at least one size category larger than its rider. This evolution is only available to eidolons of the quadruped and serpentine base forms.
and not to nitpick since Abraham spading didn't bring it up. but I was to understand pounce didn't interact very well with mounted combat. ant least it was suggested it didn't. but this may be a question for the rules forum.
As far as I can see and tell pouncing works fine with mounted combat provided you charge when your mount does.
realize that the mount has its actions, and you have yours, you simply take them at at the same time.
For instance my wizard when mounted can have the mount attack the goblin at its feet, then move its move speed while the wizard draws a wand (as a move action) and then uses it (as a standard action), or casts a full round spell like summon monster 1.
The barbarian can have the mount charge, and then charge himself as part of his mount's charge too. Now he doesn't get increased bonuses but he does get to use the increased movement of the mount instead of his own. when he hits if he has pounce since he charged he can full attack -- if his mount also has pounce then it can full attack as well.
This is the premise behind my previously mentioned "Camel Charlie and Hammy" (on page 13 of this thread).
and not to nitpick since Abraham spading didn't bring it up. but I was to understand pounce didn't interact very well with mounted combat. ant least it was suggested it didn't. but this may be a question for the rules forum.
Well the summoner's aspect allows him to pick up the evolution limbs:arms thus allowing him to grow arms and polymorph spells allow class abilities that let you add features(like a sorcerer's ability to grow claws) to still function.
So somatic component is taken care of. then he has still spell, and 2 rods of still spell( 1 lesser and 1 regular). If we had 11 lvls to work with, I could pick up a lvl of oracle and be deaf(also not terribly appealing) to take care of all my casting woes. I might switch around equipment to more thoroughly cover the casting issues.
Either way, the mastadon version is supposed to be sub-par but it has clear cut rules for working so it is listed as well.
On the issue of crafting, I do not see how it breaks wbl rules. the practical value of an item is what you can get it for. In that sense, a crafter's wbl differs from a non-crafters. Also, now even non-casters can craft magical arms, armor, and wondrous items. So it is hardly exclusive. I have not personally seen games run the way you guys describe. In every game I have played, crafting has always been a method of increasing your wealth because it costs feats and time.
Well the summoner's aspect allows him to pick up the evolution limbs:arms thus allowing him to grow arms and polymorph spells allow class abilities that let you add features(like a sorcerer's ability to grow claws) to still function.
So somatic component is taken care of.
I disagree.
There's a difference between the sorcerer's ability to grow claws, and say a Dragon Disciple's natural armor.
The later is based upon his natural form. If that is altered then it can be lost, and the same with your summoner's extra arms.
The summoner's aspect allows the summoner to HAVE an extra set of arms, not to grow them on command.
well actually it is not "have" extra arms, but "grow" extra arms.
polymorph subschool text:
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function.
Just by reading this it is pretty clear. you lose abilities that depend on your original form (senses and such) as well as natural attacks and movement types. Aspect-evolution- limbs is none of these. You lose class features that depend on your form but ones that allow you to add features still function. Aspect allows you to get an evolution. If you pick one that allows you to add features then it is legit. It does not say that the abilities need to work temporarily or on command. A class ability that adds a new feature permanently is still an ability that adds features.
I believe you are reading more into the rules than exists.
I believe you are reading more into the rules than exists.
Then we disagree.
You have a class feature that allows you to have 4 arms instead of 2.
You cannot, for example, walk around with 2 arms then decide to grow out your other pair of arms, but rather always have 4 arms.
When you change your shape those 4 arms, as part of your form, change to match your new shape.
If your evolution were claws for example, you'd certainly lose them, right?
Your eidolon without being remade (via spell or leveling) doesn't get to change his extra limb evolution from say extra arms into extra legs on whim.. Moreover the eidolon doesn't get to grow them out during combat (who knows what kind of action this would be, or the time it would take) or the like.
You're misreading 'grow' here... it's an EX ability, not the SU one that you are envisioning here.
well actually it is not "have" extra arms, but "grow" extra arms.
** spoiler omitted **
Just by reading this it is pretty clear. you lose abilities that depend on your original form (senses and such) as well as natural attacks and movement types. Aspect-evolution- limbs is none of these. You lose class features that depend on your form but ones that allow you to add features still function. Aspect allows you to get an evolution. If you pick one that allows you to add features then it is legit. It does not say that the abilities need to work temporarily or on command. A class ability that adds a new feature permanently is still an ability that adds features.
I believe you are reading more into the rules than exists.
You missed what he was saying.
The character you described Above does not have Limbs he is a Mammoth. i looked it over 4x and could not find it.
From a Mechanical sense your Silence Rod idea is sound, from an Actual play point of view it has alot of holes in it. You would Use up your Rods in the First Two fights. Then be forced to full round casting For buffs.
If you had hands that is which you do not appear to. But this could be a formatting issue.
I believe you are reading more into the rules than exists.
Then we disagree.
You have a class feature that allows you to have 4 arms instead of 2.
You cannot, for example, walk around with 2 arms then decide to grow out your other pair of arms, but rather always have 4 arms.
When you change your shape those 4 arms, as part of your form, change to match your new shape.
If your evolution were claws for example, you'd certainly lose them, right?
Your eidolon without being remade (via spell or leveling) doesn't get to change his extra limb evolution from say extra arms into extra legs on whim.. Moreover the eidolon doesn't get to grow them out during combat (who knows what kind of action this would be, or the time it would take) or the like.
You're misreading 'grow' here... it's an EX ability, not the SU one that you are envisioning here.
-James
Look, fact remains that is it not on the list of things removed by polymorphing. The arms are also not a part of my original form. My original form is a half elf with 2 arms. Also what if you are incorrectly interpreting the order of things.
What do you think would happen if the order is reversed. What if the summoner is PaO'd permanently into a mastadon and then gets his arms? Lets say he either gains a lvl and gets his aspect or he transmogrifies and then his aspect changes(you can change the evolutions you get when your eidolon has the chance to change his evolutions).
In this order it is exactly like a sorcerer growing claws after his polymorph.
The arms are grown as part of your original form and are supernatural -- which is something you specifically lose when you polymorph. It says:
rules wrote:
At 10th level, a summoner can divert up to 2 points from his eidolon’s evolution pool to add evolutions to himself.
It doesn't say it works with any other form he takes, and PAO is a polymorph spell that alters your form -- basically putting you in a "monster suit" until it is dispelled or wears off (which by the way could be a huge issue for this build -- dispelling would definitely hurt your build).
It's also a class feature that depends on form as such you lose it again based on the very text you quoted.
I'll writ eon this one Final Time then Leave it to others. I think a part of the problem with this is You are really bending the Spirit Of the Threads Exercise somewhat.
In order for your character to have Multi attack, You had to get somone to cast a lvl 8 spell permanencied on you at lvl 8. (in order to pick the feat as your lvl 9 feat)
Based on your last Post This means In essence Your Concept here Requires that The character Spent an /entire/ level as a mammoth unable to speak or Cast spells?.
Isnt that a little impracticle without even addressing where lvl 8-9 characters find high level wizards to cast spells on them.
Anyhow i'll leave the Rest of this to others. Sincw while im sure alot of what your trying to do Bends things strongly im not firm enough on the rules to argue them.
From what I understand the point of the thread was not to get a high DPR under any circumstances, but under a very controlled set of circumstances so things would be mostly even with respect to items and so on, across the board.
The point is basically to see what is possible with a practical build(one most of us can see in a game), not a theoretical build, which is normally intended to use the most favorable interpretation of the rules, and has few limiting qualifiers.
What do you think would happen if the order is reversed. What if the summoner is PaO'd permanently into a mastadon and then gets his arms?
In this order it is exactly like a sorcerer growing claws after his polymorph.
PaO doesn't change your true form. For example if I see you with a true seeing spell I see the summoner, while with normal eyes I see a mastadon (or whatever) with a silly rune on their head.
You are taking an evolution that affects your real form, and as such would not be present while polymorphed. Likewise it would not be present if you were magic jaring a mastadon (or other creature).
It is also NOT like a sorcerer that grows out claws. If you go back to 3e there was a warshaper PrC that could actually take a move action to grow out a claw, tentacle or the like as a move action. Evolutions are not the same thing.
How long do you think it takes to grow out these extra limbs and what sort of action are you thinking that it is? I don't see it as this mind you, but since you do then you should have answers to this.
2. Yeah I used PaO to turn into a huge dragon because PaO lets you turn one object or creature into another. I used the bonuses from form of the dragon 4 because they are the bonuses for turning into a huge dragon. I apologize if that was a mistake. But then again, even on a re-reading, I am not sure what you are supposed to use as PaO seems to have 2 sets of conflicting rules(partly because they tried to incorporate the new polymorphing rules with the old 3.5 PaO text.
Since PaO is a big part of your build, and you are so confused on it. Here.
PaO functions as greater polymorph, except it allows for the target to be an object or creature. It also changes the duration.
So now we look at greater polymorph. "If the form is that of a dragon, the spell functions as form of the dragon I."
Pretty simple, lets look at that. "You become a Medium chromatic or metallic dragon"
Oh, well, there ya go. Can't be a dragon. You're stuck with the elephant build that can't cast. Unless you metamagic everything to be stilled/silenced.
From a Mechanical sense your Silence Rod idea is sound, from an Actual play point of view it has alot of holes in it. You would Use up your Rods in the First Two fights. Then be forced to full round casting For buffs.
On the point that he will very quickly run out of uses of his 2 metamagic rods, well I could add 1 more lesser rod but the need is not great. Treat the build like you would a non-caster. Most combats, his long term buffs are enough and he will spend every round pouncing something. He is only consistently putting on a total of 5 buffs(2 mage armor, 1 barkskin, 2 heroism). Only the barkskin and heroisms are going to need recasting. So most adventuring days he will go through 8 spells and 1 or 2 of them will have to be done normally with still spell instead of a rod.
Abraham spalding wrote:
The arms are grown as part of your original form and are supernatural -- which is something you specifically lose when you polymorph. It says:
rules wrote:
At 10th level, a summoner can divert up to 2 points from his eidolon’s evolution pool to add evolutions to himself.
It doesn't say it works with any other form he takes, and PAO is a polymorph spell that alters your form -- basically putting you in a "monster suit" until it is dispelled or wears off (which by the way could be a huge issue for this build -- dispelling would definitely hurt your build).
Actually, the evolution doesn't even mention form. Only you guys do. Also dispelling won't be a big worry for awhile because the minimum caster level of bought PaO is 15th. Not too many lower lvl caster enemies that we can actually beat will also have the ability to consistently dispel it. Also, we could aim for a higher caster level and we could later boost the caster level using 1 of several means(check a how to boost cl thread for examples).
still spalding wrote:
It's also a class feature that depends on form as such you lose it again based on the very text you quoted.
No it isn't a class feature that depends on form. It is a class feature that form depends on. IE, it does not rely on your form, it changes your form.
There is a list of things that polymorph gets rid of(abilities that depend on form, natural attacks, and movement types). This is not on it.
There is a list of things that polymorph lets continue to function(class abilities that let you add features. this adds a feature) and this is on it.
james wrote:
PaO doesn't change your true form. For example if I see you with a true seeing spell I see the summoner, while with normal eyes I see a mastadon (or whatever) with a silly rune on their head.
You are taking an evolution that affects your real form, and as such would not be present while polymorphed. Likewise it would not be present if you were magic jaring a mastadon (or other creature).
It is also NOT like a sorcerer that grows out claws. If you go back to 3e there was a warshaper PrC that could actually take a move action to grow out a claw, tentacle or the like as a move action. Evolutions are not the same thing.
How long do you think it takes to grow out these extra limbs and what sort of action are you thinking that it is? I don't see it as this mind you, but since you do then you should have answers to this.
-James
Except, the extra arms might not even be part of my true form either(since true seeing sees the true form of polymorphed, "changed", or transmuted things). Though that is hardly relevant to this discussion.
The action required and how long it takes to pop out is irrelevant. Once again, you guys are adding language to the rules that does not currently exist(in multiple areas).
wraithstrike wrote:
From what I understand the point of the thread was not to get a high DPR under any circumstances, but under a very controlled set of circumstances so things would be mostly even with respect to items and so on, across the board.
The point is basically to see what is possible with a practical build(one most of us can see in a game), not a theoretical build, which is normally intended to use the most favorable interpretation of the rules, and has few limiting qualifiers.
I understand that as well. But as I said several times, the build was mostly a joke. As in amusing... haha the eidolon is riding the master and the master is sometimes an elephant... this was first posted on April 1st. I considered using the dragon idea because I wished to avoid disussing how an elephant spell casts(which is clearly with difficulty). The only thing shown in my small dpr workup was the eidolon whose damage is the same regardless of whether the summoner is a dragon or an elephant.
This guy is hardly part of the competition if such a thing existed in this thread. His numbers come out high because it combines multiweapon fighting, pounce, and spirited charge. I never once said, haha my numbers wreck yours.
But people seem to wish to nitpick for the sake of nitpicking and I have had to go to great effort defending a joke build. Worst of all, I have to defend against rules interpretations that do not even include any rules(all for a joke build).
Towards Tarantula- You are likely correct. I was originally reading it as works as greater polymorph except when doing things greater polymorph doesn't do. IE, turn someone into a pebble(though that would likely be like replicating flesh to stone). I ran the idea through a rules thread and didn't get much negativity and in the past I have looked at PaO threads and found very little information(though I may not have found good threads).
But I have found a way for my elephant to cast. I have not seen any actual rules thrown my way on that one. I on the other hand have directly quoted polymorph subschool rules that verify you get to polymorph and keep arms added from a class feature.
the nit pickyness comes mostly from the fact that your build comes close or actually does break game rules. you don't seem to understand how key components of the character work.
case I'n point the use of aspect is not even mentioned I'n his stat block and I suspect the eidolon was built with full evolution points. yet the character needs this to work. stuff like having a lvl 8 spell cast on you at lvl at just hits nerves for me I guess. but homely someone will post something new to pull the attention away.
case I'n point the use of aspect is not even mentioned I'n his stat block and I suspect the eidolon was built with full evolution points. yet the character needs this to work. stuff like having a lvl 8 spell cast on you at lvl at just hits nerves for me I guess. but homely someone will post something new to pull the attention away.
Well you are correct that I forgot to put it in his stat block, but in the same post
me wrote:
The half elf has 2 extra evolution points but he needs to spend those on his aspect to get arms when he is an elephant.
So it shouldn't be too confusing. Also, having a lvl 8 spell cast on you only takes 1200 gp and it is permanent. Getting spellcasting services is not be related to what level you are but whether you are in a big enough city and have enough money. Considering the cost, I do not see the big deal? This is just like buying equipment. Furthermore, I could skip this entire issue by buying an elephant mount for 1000gp(source adventurer's armory)or by buying a heavy horse and PaO'ing that into a huge creature.
So lets go over the "rules of the thread" you've broken.
WBL - crafting was barred.
Buying permanent spells.
As far as "rules" issues I'll start with your arms.
Aspect is a Su ability which grants you the Ex ability of the Limbs evolution. Okay so far.
Polymorph, Core 212, "While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form."
Alright, here's where the fun comes in. You lose Ex and Su abilities that depend on your original form. Since it specifically references sorcerers growing claws as an exception, lets look at that first.
Core, 73, "Claws (Ex): At 1st level, you can grow claws as a free action. These claws are treated as natural weapons, allowing you to make two claw attacks as a full attack action using your full base attack bonus."
Okay, so it takes an action to do, and then lets you get claw natural weapons. Does limbs let you choose to add a feature? No, it is part of your normal self, and not something you can turn on and off. Since it is permanent (until evolutions are changed), it goes away when you polymorph.
Okay, this leaves you the problem of how to wield wands as an elephant. I guess you could get 1 in your trunk, and that might work, if your GM is super nice. But if you're getting this by, we'll assume he lets it.
Anyway, yes, its funny, maybe you should've thrown it in its own thread or a different forum if you didn't want us to rip it to shreds. Sorry. I do agree, its kinda funny. I can see it working better with just summoning monsters for your eidolon to ride. (Btw, I didn't even give a detailed look at the build, just trying to clarify rules discussions that are ongoing, so if I nailed something you've covered and I missed it, my bad.)
Alright, here's where the fun comes in. You lose Ex and Su abilities that depend on your original form. Since it specifically references sorcerers growing claws as an exception, lets look at that first.
the ability doesn't depend on my form, it changes my form. So wrong for reasons already stated. lets continue.
tarantula wrote:
Core, 73, "Claws (Ex): At 1st level, you can grow claws as a free action. These claws are treated as natural weapons, allowing you to make two claw attacks as a full attack action using your full base attack bonus."
Okay, so it takes an action to do, and then lets you get claw natural weapons. Does limbs let you choose to add a feature? No, it is part of your normal self, and not something you can turn on and off. Since it is permanent (until evolutions are changed), it goes away when you polymorph.
Adding a limb is definitely adding a feature. It is not part of your normal self. My half-elf's normal self has 2 arms. Being able to activate it or turn it on and off is not a requirement specified in the rules you just quoted. Though one could activate their aspect when they lvl or use transmogrify. Thus for reasons already stated in other posts as well, polymorphing does not take the ability away and it allows the ability to continue to function.
tarantula wrote:
Anyway, yes, its funny, maybe you should've thrown it in its own thread or a different forum if you didn't want us to rip it to shreds. Sorry....
while some of what you guys have said has been accurate(some skill were at the wrong value, issues with turning into a huge dragon) other points have been baseless. The argument against the aspect working has largely been based off of things that do not exist in the rules. I mean you guys repeatedly claim that the ability to grow extra arms is an ability that relies on your form. Its the opposite, it is an ability that changes your form. Notice that all the example abilities you lose are related to your senses(sight,hearing, and smell actually do depend on your form. If your new form is blind, deaf, and doesn't have a nose then your senses have an issue). The aspect nets me an evolution that grows arms. You have been equating form reliant abilities with a form changing one. Which is incorrect.
It is clear cut unless one has some other source to bring forward.
the ability doesn't depend on my form, it changes my form. So wrong for reasons already stated. lets continue.
Lets try this again.
You are correct, it changes your form.
First, lets go with the sorcerer with claw example, as that is explicitly allowed.
How it works:
Sorcerer grows claws, yay, they are now a half-elf with claws.
Sorcerer polymorphs, sorcerer is now a mastodon.
Sorcerer grows claws, and now is a mastodon with claws. This is because the claws were added after having been changed to a mastodon.
You:
Summoner gets aspect, picks extra arms, yay!
Summoner polymorphs, summoner is now a mastodon.
Summoner doesn't have an action to get extra arms, and so will only get them when his polymorph wears off, unless he has a way to re-select evolutions while he is still polymorphed. Then he could get arms as a mastodon.
That is the reason the claws work, because you can add them after you are polymorphed. You can't add the arms, and nothing say they stay.
Another example. Say you took the claws and bite evolutions instead. These also do not carry over to polymorphed forms. Natural attacks are explicitly lost. I could even argue that because fists are a natural attack, you lose the arms for that reason. (Since you are not a monk, you make unarmed attacks with your hands.)
unless he has a way to re-select evolutions while he is still polymorphed. Then he could get arms as a mastodon.
No, he could not.
Nor could he take the improved natural armor evolution to improve his mastadon natural armor.
But if he did take the improved natural armor evolution and his PaO were dispelled then he would have a thicker skin than a normal half-elf.
Likewise if he took the claws evolution, these claws would not be there in his mastadon form, nor wings from the wings evolution or any other evolution that is altering his normal form.
Core, 73, "Claws (Ex): At 1st level, you can grow claws as a free action. These claws are treated as natural weapons, allowing you to make two claw attacks as a full attack action using your full base attack bonus."
Okay, so it takes an action to do, and then lets you get claw natural weapons. Does limbs let you choose to add a feature? No, it is part of your normal self, and not something you can turn on and off. Since it is permanent (until evolutions are changed), it goes away when you polymorph.
Adding a limb is definitely adding a feature. It is not part of your normal self. My half-elf's normal self has 2 arms. Being able to activate it or turn it on and off is not a requirement specified in the rules you just quoted. Though one could activate their aspect when they lvl or use transmogrify. Thus for reasons already stated in other posts as well, polymorphing does not take the ability away and it allows the ability to continue to function.
PRD wrote:
You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function.
Aspect does not let you add features. It alters your body so that you have those features. The distinction is the difference between "I am a creature with claws" and "I can grow claws at will".
A sorcerer with the draconic bloodline can choose to grow claws or wings - no matter what form they're in, they can activate that power and add claws or wings. If they polymorph while their claws or wings are out, they lose them - but they can just readd them to their new form. A summoner could add arms to his current form, even if that form is a polymorphed one, provided that he is in that form when he can distribute his evolution points. If he wasn't polymorphed already, he could change into something else, he would lose the arms until he either could readd them, or until he returned to the form which had them. If he was polymorphed already, I'd rule that the ability would stay with him, but it's a grayer area.
The key word is add. You have to be able to add the features to the form you're currently in in order to benefit from it. A sorcerer adds his claws to his form at will. So no matter what form he's in, he can add claws. A summoner only adds his arms when he levels up, so he can only add them to the form he's in when he levels up.
I'd allow a PoO'd summoner who has respent his evolution points since being PoO'd to add arms to his new form. But they don't just stick with you because you changed forms.
That is the reason the claws work, because you can add them after you are polymorphed. You can't add the arms, and nothing say they stay.
Well actually we have already thoroughly gone over an explicit list of things you lose when you polymorph. Using aspect to get the limbs arms evolution isn't on that list. That ability is not lost. Meaning you are still gaining an extra set of arms when you are a mastadon.
This is not how you guys imagine it working right. But how you imagine it working is not in the rules. I am sorry that your notion of things does not match up to reality.
@bobson, even under the very specific interpretation that add implies the abilities need to be activated to work, one still has ways to reactivate/change the aspect after turning into a mastadon. We could say that the current summoner turned into a mastadon at lvl 9 and then turned lvl 10 gaining his aspect and grows some arms(this would cover any issues the above build supposedly has).
We could have a still/silent transmogrify. If this were a lvl 11 build, I could incorporate a lvl of oracle, and the trait magical lineage(which allows you to pick a spell and modify it with metamagic at 1 less adjusted lvl) That is a lvl 11 character that can transmogrify still and silently. 2 castings of Arcane Concordance would be another option but one would need to clarify when it had to be cast(beginning, end, or both) of the 1 hour transmogrify).
But, just as reasonably, one can interpret that adding a feature means adding something new. An evolution that gives you arms does "add" a new feature. I think that turning 'add' into 'requires activation' to be a stretch though.
That is the reason the claws work, because you can add them after you are polymorphed. You can't add the arms, and nothing say they stay.
Well actually we have already thoroughly gone over an explicit list of things you lose when you polymorph. Using aspect to get the limbs arms evolution isn't on that list. That ability is not lost. Meaning you are still gaining an extra set of arms when you are a mastadon.
Arms are a natural attack. You lose natural attacks. You lose your arms.
That is the reason the claws work, because you can add them after you are polymorphed. You can't add the arms, and nothing say they stay.
Well actually we have already thoroughly gone over an explicit list of things you lose when you polymorph. Using aspect to get the limbs arms evolution isn't on that list. That ability is not lost. Meaning you are still gaining an extra set of arms when you are a mastadon.
This is not how you guys imagine it working right. But how you imagine it working is not in the rules. I am sorry that your notion of things does not match up to reality.
Actually it is exactly how it works -- it states you lose supernatural abilities and extra ordinary abilities based on form while polymorphed -- you have an supernatural ability to gain an extra ordinary ability in your base form. Not in a polymorphed form.
It's quite explicitly exactly what the rules state. It's almost a verbatim case in fact.
Disclaimer: while the rules of this thing state potions/items with charges cannot be used, might I politely point out that:
(1) that is the main strength of the alchemist and
(2) this guy boasts 40 min of mutagen and 80 min(!!!) of an unlimited Heroism potion (due to alchemical allocation, extend potion and enhance potion) per use. So I think he will have those buffs up for the vast majority of fights.
Anyway, the idea is to combine the feats, armor and BAB of the fighter with the amazing self-buffs of the alchemist.
Executive Summary:
Full Attack Damage/round: 88.47 (77 without enlarge person) (137 with haste... get haste 10 rounds/day through armor).
Single attack/round: 48.36 (43 without enlarge person)
AC: 24 (assumes mutagen and enlarge person... 28 with Shield... 30 with haste...)
HP: 84
Saves:
Fort: +15 (+13 without Heroism) Ref: +12 (+10 without Heroism) Will: +8 (+6 without heroism)
Note that with Enlarge Person, Lunge and Step up, Fal is able to full attack anyone within 20 feet... which means he should be able to full attack a fair amount. Also, at level 15 he hits level 11 fighter and gets the Mobile Fighter feat that allows him to move and full attack (Rapid Attack). At that point, things just get silly.
Not bad, eh? Nevermind the extra utility of being able to use various extracts in non-combat situations/tailor self-buffs to specific encounters as well as the extra skills.
Spoiler:
Class: Fighter(6)/Alchemist(4)
Race: Half-Elf
Str: 24/30 (18 base +2 level increase +4 magic item)/+4 extract (13) and +2 Enlarge person
Dex: 12
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 10
Cha: 8
Mobile Fighter/Alchemist
Traits: Defender of the society (+1 AC)
Reactionary (+2 initiative)
Gear: 62k
Elven Curved Blade +2 (8k)
Mithril Full plate of speed +1 (26k)
Ring of protection +1 (2k)
Belt of Giant Strength +4 (16k)
Cloak of resistance +3 (9k)
Potion of Heroism .75k
Hmm. It seems there's no point in an unarmed fighter. Replace tempest ted's weapons with gauntlets or UAS. Which does nothing but lower the dice damage and critical threat of the weapon. And the DPR goes down drastically..
1. So twice a day you can reuse a potion and have it work at caster level 4 and extended.
That gives you 160 minutes twice a day, or a total of 3 hours 20 minutes.
Not 'unlimited' on the per day for sure.
2. The extract only lasts for 40 minutes too and I'm not seeing your penalties for using it in there anywhere.
3. The thread did say these are supposed to be single class character -- this is both fairly minor and fairly major.
1. 3 hours and 20 minutes is a pretty dang long time. I suppose there will be the odd occasion where I lose a move action or something while I drink the next batch in combat... but that won't happen too often. I should be able to prep ahead of time. That said, I concede that you make a fair point.
2. -2 penalty to intelligence (if boosting strength), I believe, right? No combat effect.
3. Ah, now THAT is a good point and disqualifies my dude, I suppose. Still, fun build. In fact, I think I will use him in the next campaign.
That said I think you could get fairly close to something similar with a straight alchemist -- after all your level will be higher and the potions will last longer because of that... and you'll have more extracts... that also have long durations.
Look, fact remains that is it not on the list of things removed by polymorphing. The arms are also not a part of my original form. My original form is a half elf with 2 arms. Also what if you are incorrectly interpreting the order of things.
I like this line! The class from a book that came out 12 months after the core book does not have the powers listed specifically in the core book spell description, therefor it is not against the rules.
That said I think you could get fairly close to something similar with a straight alchemist -- after all your level will be higher and the potions will last longer because of that... and you'll have more extracts... that also have long durations.
The alchemist drunkard isn't a bad build.
The Alchemist/Master Chymist is not a bad build... but DPR ends up around 62 or so on a full attack with claws and bite, I think. Pretty good, but not as good as the figher/alchemist. Furthermore, by the time one hits level 15 and has rapid attack and can ensure full attacks every turn, you will leave the pure alchemist far behind, I think.
Also, you lose AC.
On the other hand, you get many more extracts, useful bombs and more skills.
Certainly a fair trade... but it looks like the fighter-alchemist (when fully buffed) wins out over a pure alchemist melee guy.
Note that when not buffed the fighter-alchemist still does a respectable 50 DPR in a full round attack and 30 for a single attack even when not buffed.
EDIT: I am asusming an enemy AC of 24 at level 10
Also, made a math error above... Fighter/Alchemist ave damage should actually be:
Full Attack Damage/round: 79 (124 with haste... get haste 10 rounds/day through armor).
Single attack/round: 45
That is the reason the claws work, because you can add them after you are polymorphed. You can't add the arms, and nothing say they stay.
Well actually we have already thoroughly gone over an explicit list of things you lose when you polymorph. Using aspect to get the limbs arms evolution isn't on that list. That ability is not lost. Meaning you are still gaining an extra set of arms when you are a mastadon.
Arms are a natural attack. You lose natural attacks. You lose your arms.
lol, amusing joke. unless you are serious at which point some dots need to be connected.
spalding wrote:
Actually it is exactly how it works -- it states you lose supernatural abilities and extra ordinary abilities based on form while polymorphed -- you have an supernatural ability to gain an extra ordinary ability in your base form. Not in a polymorphed form.
It's quite explicitly exactly what the rules state. It's almost a verbatim case in fact.
You can pretend otherwise but the ability is clearly not based on my form. It is an ability that modifies my form. The extra arms aren't part of my base form. These are extra arms I get from a class feature for until I switch them out with something else.
shar tahl wrote:
I like this line! The class from a book that came out 12 months after the core book does not have the powers listed specifically in the core book spell description, therefor it is not against the rules.
Yet errata have come out regarding the apg since then. They changed cloud step because it interacted poorly with the core rules.
Also I was not saying that the polymorph rules should specifically mention the aspect ability or the evolution limbs ability. I was saying that any class ability that gives you extra arms is not removed by polymorph. For polymorph you lose natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form(its not one of these), you lose ex or su abilities that depend on your original form(it is clearly not one of these), and you lose class abilities that depend on your form(not one of these). Cut and dry.
I seriously do not care that much anymore, if you don't like my elephant summoner mount, you can just pretend he isn't there. I grow disinterested with this since the discussion is becoming repetitive and other builds are being posted that shouldn't be buried under piles of rules text.
And the master chymist will not be losing AC I can just about guarantee that... neither will the plain alchemist either I wager.
Really? Man. Because my armor alone gives me +10 to AC alone.
How are they making that up?
At level 10 their armor is liable to be giving them +6 easily. Mutagen offers 2 more points right off. Then we add in barkskin for another +4?
If they spend a feat on medium armor they can have the breastplate at +2 for a +8 bonus.
IF you go master chymist then you have the following too:
Quote:
Nimble (Ex): The master chymist’s lithe physical frame gives her an alchemical bonus on all Dexterity checks, Dexterity skill checks, and CMD, and a natural armor bonus to her Armor Class. The bonus is equal to half the master chymist’s class level.
So we have:
+6 (chain shirt +2)
+6 (natural with mutagen and barkskin)
Before we get fancy with shield extracts or other equipment.
If instead the alchemist burns a feat for medium armor he's up to:
+8 (breastplate +2)
+6 (natural armor with mutagen and barkskin)
This is before extracts like: haste, displacement, greater invisibility, beast shape/elemental form or a few others.
And the master chymist will not be losing AC I can just about guarantee that... neither will the plain alchemist either I wager.
Really? Man. Because my armor alone gives me +10 to AC alone.
How are they making that up?
At level 10 their armor is liable to be giving them +6 easily. Mutagen offers 2 more points right off. Then we add in barkskin for another +4?
If they spend a feat on medium armor they can have the breastplate at +2 for a +8 bonus.
IF you go master chymist then you have the following too:
Quote:
Nimble (Ex): The master chymist’s lithe physical frame gives her an alchemical bonus on all Dexterity checks, Dexterity skill checks, and CMD, and a natural armor bonus to her Armor Class. The bonus is equal to half the master chymist’s class level.
So we have:
+6 (chain shirt +2)
+6 (natural with mutagen and barkskin)
Before we get fancy with shield extracts or other equipment.
If instead the alchemist burns a feat for medium armor he's up to:
+8 (breastplate +2)
+6 (natural armor with mutagen and barkskin)
This is before extracts like: haste, displacement, greater invisibility, beast shape/elemental form or a few others.
Right. So I get the mutagen bonus.
And barkskin, if I like
And Shield extract too
No haste extract for me... but I get 10 rounds of it from my armor.
So really the difference is... nimble? And the Master Chymist at level 10 will not have nimble. He will have taken the bonus damage in his mutagenic form.
And barkskin, if I like
And Shield extract too
No haste extract for me... but I get 10 rounds of it from my armor.
So really the difference is... nimble? And the Master Chymist at level 10 will not have nimble. He will have taken the bonus damage in his mutagenic form.
I think I should end up with higher AC.
Your barkskin will only net you a +2. your mutagen doesn't last very long, and if you use barkskin you won't have heroism up -- which I can have up too.
The damage boosters in master chymist amount to either Growth or the damage increasers for natural weapons... which I wouldn't bother taking... though I might take Growth.
In the end you also won't have displacement, blur, or stoneskin -- as well as air walk.
All of which I will have as a normal alchemist.
And IF I take growth as a master chymist then I'll also have reach on you too with three natural attacks -- which will be each made at maximum bonus to hit and with maximum effect from power attack in addition to brutality -- however I would lose out on fourth level extracts.
So to recap:
IF I take the medium armor (and there isn't a good reason not to) then I have:
+8 armor
+6 natural
as an alchemist.
IF I take master chymist to I have:
+8 Armor
+7 natural
and with your armor mutagen and barkskin (which means you can't heroism) you have
+10 armor
+4 natural
Meaning +14 total...
Which I am matching with an alchemist only mine lasts longer, and if I want I can still go up to heavy armor.
If I'm using the master chymist I'm actually a point ahead.
lol, amusing joke. unless you are serious at which point some dots need to be connected.
Sure. You cannot make an unarmed attack without a free hand as a human/half-elf/other humanoid. Thus, the arm is what provides the attack. (Exception: Monks, as they specifically state they don't need a free hand)
