Is it possible for the mount to do an over run/trample attack and the rider to do a mounted charge at the same time? It seems to me that the horse would charge, then get its over run trample attack. The rider of course gets an attack as part of the charge I guess the real question is a natural attack the only option for the mount at the end of its charge?
The problem arises in that the charge attack from the rider comes at the end of the charge, while the trample/overrun happens in the middle. So, I would rule that, no, the rider does not get an attack on an overrun by the mount. At least not a charge attack.
I would rule (should the rider have the Ride-By Attack) that he/she could make an attack mid-charge, but could not then make an attack at the end of the charge.
The problem arises in that the charge attack from the rider comes at the end of the charge, while the trample/overrun happens in the middle. So, I would rule that, no, the rider does not get an attack on an overrun by the mount. At least not a charge attack.
I would rule (should the rider have the Ride-By Attack) that he/she could make an attack mid-charge, but could not then make an attack at the end of the charge.
So, according to the book, The rider only gets a charge attack if the horse charges. that would rule overrun out, as a method of getting a charge attack, because like power attack, it cannot be used as part of a charge, as it is itself a standard action. I'm not sure how this changes if you are using a Cavalier or Paladin, as their mounts are a little different than normal and have their own feats. They have their own actions and are a little more complicated. I have houseruled that moving more than 15ft on horseback gives you the double dmg personally, but that is a houserule. The book does not say that. I also went so far as to allow the mount to practically be a seperate entity all together. Its more like real mounted combat that way, and man, does it make combat fun. Lots of hoofing, and awesome blow for a horse has created a new sport.. Hobgoblin bowling.
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Can you overrun targets between you and your charge target? So could I overrun a goblin on my way to an orc?
How do you guys rule reach from horseback? If a Medium creature is riding a Large creature can they attack adjacent targets with a non-reach weapon?
Also, a lance is listed as a two handed weapon. Does this mean I can't use a shield and lance? What if I am using a shield and lance and attack without charging, is that possible?
I haven't used mounted combat much but with Paladin and now Cavalier I see it becoming a more common occurrence in my games.
Can you overrun targets between you and your charge target? So could I overrun a goblin on my way to an orc?
You could not set up the charge in the first place, the goblin would block your path(you need a straight unobstructed line). You need two rounds to do this
1) Bullrush the goblin(charge or not as you like) to get adjacent to orc.2) Attack the orc, no charge benefit.
How do you guys rule reach from horseback? If a Medium creature is riding a Large creature can they attack adjacent targets with a non-reach weapon?
Consider the mount + rider as a single large creature.
Typical mounts like horses have 5' reach.The medium rider uses it's own reach 5' also unless wielding a longspear or such..
Also, a lance is listed as a two handed weapon. Does this mean I can't use a shield and lance? What if I am using a shield and lance and attack without charging, is that possible?
Lance: A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount. While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand.
Yes, you can use a shield.
No charge= normal damage.
I haven't used mounted combat much but with Paladin and now Cavalier I see it becoming a more common occurrence in my games.
Have fun!
Can you overrun targets between you and your charge target? So could I overrun a goblin on my way to an orc?
How do you guys rule reach from horseback? If a Medium creature is riding a Large creature can they attack adjacent targets with a non-reach weapon?
Also, a lance is listed as a two handed weapon. Does this mean I can't use a shield and lance? What if I am using a shield and lance and attack without charging, is that possible?
I haven't used mounted combat much but with Paladin and now Cavalier I see it becoming a more common occurrence in my games.
It should also be more common with the Summoner as well.
Summoner is my new favorite class!
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Have fun!
Thanks for the replies, those are what I figured but wanted to make sure I was doing it right. So far it's been a lot of fun, with the exception of figuring out movement for a large creature charging and what does/doesn't block them. Halfling on a dog, no problem. Half-orc on a horse...more work.
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Can you overrun targets between you and your charge target? So could I overrun a goblin on my way to an orc?You could not set up the charge in the first place, the goblin would block your path(you need a straight unobstructed line). You need two rounds to do this
1) Bullrush the goblin(charge or not as you like) to get adjacent to orc.
2) Attack the orc, no charge benefit.
Quick thought. Could you do this in one round by overrunning the goblin and then hitting the orc for no charge?
Quick thought. Could you do this in one round by overrunning the goblin and then hitting the orc for no charge?Can you overrun targets between you and your charge target? So could I overrun a goblin on my way to an orc?You could not set up the charge in the first place, the goblin would block your path(you need a straight unobstructed line). You need two rounds to do this
1) Bullrush the goblin(charge or not as you like) to get adjacent to orc.
2) Attack the orc, no charge benefit.
If the mount is intelligent enough, it can do the overrun or trample while you do the other attack.
If the mount is intelligent enough, it can do the overrun or trample while you do the other attack.Quick thought. Could you do this in one round by overrunning the goblin and then hitting the orc for no charge?Can you overrun targets between you and your charge target? So could I overrun a goblin on my way to an orc?You could not set up the charge in the first place, the goblin would block your path(you need a straight unobstructed line). You need two rounds to do this
1) Bullrush the goblin(charge or not as you like) to get adjacent to orc.
2) Attack the orc, no charge benefit.
All this is about how many actions you can do in a round.
One std plus move or full attack.Either way the overrun eats your std action or the attack part of the full action. That's why you cannot attack the orc.
But as QOShea says, your mount can do the overrun/trample for you, leaving you free to attack in the same round.
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Hmmm... if you have taken the 'Trample' feat, you do not have to spend an action on Overrun, i.e. your mount does it + gets to trample? And you can still benefit from charge?
This thread deals with issues that are important for me, because I'm going to run a combat encounter against an NPC cavalier (plus some cannon-fodder "minions") during this weekend.
Hmmm... if you have taken the 'Trample' feat, you do not have to spend an action on Overrun, i.e. your mount does it + gets to trample? And you can still benefit from charge?
This thread deals with issues that are important for me, because I'm going to run a combat encounter against an NPC cavalier (plus some cannon-fodder "minions") during this weekend.
You, well, your mount really, can do it anyway.
Trample is just an added benefit.scenario:
your mounted PC, a goblin and an orc are in a straight line.
you want to charge the orc.
If you were not mounted you could not overrun the goblin and attack the orc because overrun is a std action.
Likewise you could not charge the orc ignoring the goblin because you would not have a clear path to your charge target, the orc.
But since you're mounted the combined actions of your PC and mount allow you to charge the orc while overruning the goblin.
This way:
You drive your mount though the goblin's square charging. You and your mount are both charging and get the +2 to attack rolls and -2 AC.
The mount is overrunning, not you.
On entering the goblin's square you and you mount provoke an AoO if you don't have Improved Overrun.
Also the goblin can choose to avoid you giving you auto success but avoiding becoming prone if you succeed.
CMB check Mount vs goblin's CMD.
Failure=stop. You can still attack the goblin.
Success=you and your mount continue moving towards the orc.
You reach the orc. You attack with the benefit(and drawback) of the charge.
End turn adjacent to Orc(if he survives).
Trample just adds the benefit of your munt getting to attack(hoof) the goblin on a successful overrun.
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scenario:
your mounted PC, a goblin and an orc are in a straight line.
you want to charge the orc.If you were not mounted you could not overrun the goblin and attack the orc because overrun is a std action.
Likewise you could not charge the orc ignoring the goblin because you would not have a clear path to your charge target, the orc.But since you're mounted the combined actions of your PC and mount allow you to charge the orc while overruning the goblin.
This way:
You drive your mount though the goblin's square charging. You and your mount are both charging and get the +2 to attack rolls and -2 AC.
The mount is overrunning, not you.On entering the goblin's square you and you mount provoke an AoO if you don't have Improved Overrun.
Also the goblin can choose to avoid you giving you auto success but avoiding becoming prone if you succeed.CMB check Mount vs goblin's CMD.
Failure=stop. You can still attack the goblin.
Success=you and your mount continue moving towards the orc.You reach the orc. You attack with the benefit(and drawback) of the charge.
End turn adjacent to Orc(if he survives).
Trample just adds the benefit of your munt getting to attack(hoof) the goblin on a successful overrun.
Okay, but who needs the Improved Overrun feat? If it's just my Halfling Cavalier's mount who'll be performing overruns (and let's face it, he's not gonna be overrunning things himself, unmounted) would I then have to pick up Power Attack and then Improved Overrun for my mount? And in that case, would my little guy not be subject to the AoO because he's not doing the overrun (and thus not provoking the AoO)?
Then to step outside PF RPG content for a moment. I am thinking the following Feat "trees" for my Cavalier and his mount:
Cavalier: Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Trample, and then Cavalry Charger tactical Feat from Complete Warrior. That last feat references being mounted, so I assume it's got to the be rider with the Feat.
Mount: Power Attack and Improved Overrun.
But then there's the Shock Trooper tactical Feat, also from Complete Warrior. But with this one, it's a little iffier. If I wanted my Cavalier to get the nice benefit of having Power Attack penalties offset by AC rather than a a reduced chance to hit, I assume he'd be the one who would need to take Improved Bull Rush (again, don't see when he'd be using this other than mounted, but might use it often then) and then Power Attack. Not especially bad for them both to have Power Attack, especially when he's an Outrider, dismounts, and they flank an enemy. Go Power Attack and have the flank offset the penalty.
Thoughts?
