Since I made one about the Inquisitor it seems fitting that there should be one for the alchemist as well.
1) An ability somewhere early that allows him to ready his bombs as a swift action. Using up a full-round action every time you want to throw a bomb does not sound fun.
2) Mutagen scaling with levels to some degree. This has been covered pretty well in another thread.
3) The Infusion discovery a core part of the class.
4) Some way to combine Bomb effects. Possibly a high level discovery.
5) A bomb that dispels magic would be pretty sweet.
And that's it. I really like the Alchemist and just think he needs some minor adjustments.
Mr. Fishy thinks that the Alchemist pet bomb is too powerful. A full round action to damage a radius is too much power. Mages and sorcerers can do it with a standard action, (burning hands). Also it levels and can be modified at higher levels (fire ball and meta magic). Silliness that a class feature should improve with levels.
Mr. Fishy also believe that adding the Al Key's int mod to bomb damage make the class interesting and fun.
Mr. Fishy stands againist anything interesting or fun. NO PIE for Alchemist.
Mr. Fishy lights fuse and walks away.
|
I posted something about this in another thread so i will just copy and paste here what I would have liked to have seen. Personally i would like to see almost a complete rebuild which just won't happen. But maybe a 3pp will do one like 4 winds.
Alchemist, not a fan. i get what Jason was going for and thats fine. i think it does a fine job in that regard. But really not what I was hoping for. I was more hoping for a none spell caster able to make a wide range of alchemy things. The mutagen is nice but I think it would have been better. To allow them to make as much as they want, but only allow the Alchemist to only drink one so often with out running the risk of bad things happening to them.
Like they can only drink one a hour safely. After that they have to make a Fort Save or something. failing results in something bad happening to them. Each time they drink more after the first the save gets harder and the penalty gets worse. Like say -3 to save on the 3rd one -6 to the 4th and so on. Then add the same number a mishap chart. Chart say ranged 1-30 and you just roll a die 10 or 20. I would favor a d10 and have more powerful alchemy things have built in adjustments. Like the more powerful ones have a built in +5 mishap roll. Anyways thats what I was hoping for.
I posted something about this in another thread so i will just copy and paste here what I would have liked to have seen. Personally i would like to see almost a complete rebuild which just won't happen. But maybe a 3pp will do one like 4 winds.
Alchemist, not a fan. i get what Jason was going for and thats fine. i think it does a fine job in that regard. But really not what I was hoping for. I was more hoping for a none spell caster able to make a wide range of alchemy things. The mutagen is nice but I think it would have been better. To allow them to make as much as they want, but only allow the Alchemist to only drink one so often with out running the risk of bad things happening to them.
Like they can only drink one a hour safely. After that they have to make a Fort Save or something. failing results in something bad happening to them. Each time they drink more after the first the save gets harder and the penalty gets worse. Like say -3 to save on the 3rd one -6 to the 4th and so on. Then add the same number a mishap chart. Chart say ranged 1-30 and you just roll a die 10 or 20. I would favor a d10 and have more powerful alchemy things have built in adjustments. Like the more powerful ones have a built in +5 mishap roll. Anyways thats what I was hoping for.
+1 across the board. Not a bad class, but I was also hoping for a non-spellcaster with more alchemical use...
Mr. Fishy lit a dud.
Mr. Fishy is sad, Mr Fishy would have like to have seen a magic crafting gageteer.
"I have just the potion for this," potion eats though a door. "I got a potion for this to," throws a bomb into a group of enemies.
"Watch this," drinks a potion and grows into a giant monster. Pretty much a mage in a bottle fireball gernades and glitter dust bombs
Since I made one about the Inquisitor it seems fitting that there should be one for the alchemist as well.
1) An ability somewhere early that allows him to ready his bombs as a swift action. Using up a full-round action every time you want to throw a bomb does not sound fun.
2) Mutagen scaling with levels to some degree. This has been covered pretty well in another thread.
3) The Infusion discovery a core part of the class.
4) Some way to combine Bomb effects. Possibly a high level discovery.
5) A bomb that dispels magic would be pretty sweet.
And that's it. I really like the Alchemist and just think he needs some minor adjustments.
I think those are all great suggestions. I would add:
(a) Free Brew Potion feat.
(b) Mutation gives a non-enhancement bonus.
(c) Ability to learn new extracts, either by anazlying a potion or from another alchemist's repertoire.
(d) Faster progression for new discoveries (e.g. 1/3 levels instead of 1/4 levels).
(e) An extract list that's based on spell (sub)schools rather than an idiosyncratic list (e.g. "Alchemists can learn an extract based on any spell that has a target of one or more creatures or a target of 'You', and is in one of the following schools: transmutation, divination, conjuration (healing), illusion, or abjuration").
I'll have to try actually playtesting the class before confirming my initial suspicions, of course.
More support, more alchemical items alleviating this handily.
The ability to brew potions. Learning new extracts. Better use of alchemical items.
More discoveries, at more levels - they don't do enough to restrict them 1 every 4 and they screw you up bad if you don't focus on a single path.
Better mutagens and extracts. A larger list of extracts.
Research journal.
Golem-creation, chimera-making, and maybe a few nods to Fullmetal Alchemist's Alchemy flavor without actually -making- it a transmuter would be pretty neat.
Lead to gold without wasting a discovery. Seriously.
(a) Free Brew Potion feat with text that allows an Alchemist to qualify for any and all spell requirements necessary in the crafting of potions (they'd still have to fork out the material component cost)
The specific text you mention isn't really necessary since it's fairly trivial to bypass the requirement to actually cast the spell you're making a potion of (it's just a +5 to the Craft (alchemy) DC).
But you need a spell level to pick up Brew Potion IIRC.
Adding to this list of desires:
Mix-n-match bomb elements. Lightning-Smoke, Electro-Flame, Sonic Fireball, whatever. Why can't we do this? What -possible- use is there to limit it? Half damage to one, half to the other.
More mutagen effects. If you're that concerned about Mutagens being overpowered, tweak them at least so they can stack with Extracts.
Higher-level Extracts. Form of the Dragon I is the best we get? Really?
I love everything that you just suggested, especially the golem/chimera creation stuff.More support, more alchemical items alleviating this handily.
The ability to brew potions. Learning new extracts. Better use of alchemical items.
More discoveries, at more levels - they don't do enough to restrict them 1 every 4 and they screw you up bad if you don't focus on a single path.
Better mutagens and extracts. A larger list of extracts.
Research journal.
Golem-creation, chimera-making, and maybe a few nods to Fullmetal Alchemist's Alchemy flavor without actually -making- it a transmuter would be pretty neat.
Lead to gold without wasting a discovery. Seriously.
+1 for all of this.
I really do not see the logic in preventing the ALCHEMIST learn new ALCHEMICAL FORMULAE. You know, like an alchemist would. Really
That's the impression I got too, Talon. It would also help if people remembered that unlike the base classes in the core book, these don't have years of development to work off. All in all, I would say that all of them are very solid for the amount of time available to develop them, and I look forward to seeing the revisions in January, as well as the final product.
Here is an idea I thought would be cool for the Alchemist. I put it in another post so I'll repost here.
In a post elsewhere Jason hinted that part of the Inquisitor play test may actually be for the cavalier, which is a great idea. It tests out the mechanics of a certain different groups of abilities to see which actually works better, with the better of them possibly being used in both classes albeit with different nuances.
Along these lines I would like to see the eidolon type customization cross over to the alchemist. I like that the alchemist can already focus his research in a particular direction refining his bombs or mutagens to become his primary offensive form, but I would like to see personalized recipes. I think it would be interesting if every level the alchemist received so many research points, and they could use those points to refine their own personal elixir. Their elixirs, like eidolons would have basic forms bombs, mutagens, or enhancement, from there however the alchemist could add his own twists to his creations to personalize them to his needs. This is after all at the very heart of alchemy.
I would break from the eidolon format in one regard. I would allow the alchemist to conclude one recipe and move on to others. If a recipe ever gets to the point that the alchemist doesn't want to add any more to it, he can move on and start on another. All the research points used on the original are permanently used up, and the alchemist cannot add to or take away from it once he has finalized his creation.
Anyway I think this would be yet another way to customize the alchemist, and it utilizes the evolution point system, which I think is a really great idea and should be spread around to other classes.
1 -- Trapfinding -- they are almost there already, having the class skills, and it seems like something an alchemist would be good at. This doesn't have to be as good as the rogue gets, just give them the ability to find magical traps and they would be set.
2 -- More Discoveries -- I get this is supposed to be a specialization sort of thing, but right now without spending at least one or two discoveries into any one path it sucks (bombs as fire only, mutagen without greater or grand, extracts without infusions) they all seem to have at least one mandatory thing and all the good parts come way too late. Possibly bumping the progression up to 3,6,9,12,15,18,20 would allow the Alchemist to access these just a little sooner (but not so earlier as to be at odds with the normal access for other classes) and have enough to spread out a little instead of solely focusing on one single aspect.
3 -- Bombs -- just a slight bit more umpf would be nice... at minimum some clarification on how these interact with feats already available (deadly aim, vital strike, and improvised weapon mastery to use the flask as a source of slight bludgeoning damage). Possibly defaulting the Bombs to a "fragmentation" bomb that simply deals slashing damage.
Things I think the alchemist needs:
#1 The ability to make potions/alchemical substances that go up to 9th level, on par with a 17th level Artificer or a Wizard 7/Master Alchemist 10.
#2 The ability to make alchemical substances that are not on the standard list, such as magical smoke bombs, gasses, incense, oils, unguents and perfumes.
#3 The ability to make magical poisons.
#4 Both eternal youth and the philosopher's stone as a capstone ability, without an either/or. Maybe Eternal Youth + 1 philosopher's stone per year, rather than month.
#5 Less insistence on the "magical aura" business and more on actual science or at least pseudo-science. I'd rather play MacGyver than Gambit.
#6 Fireworks. Really, you've got exploding stuff and no one's making fireworks?
|
|
Mr. Fishy lit a dud.
Mr. Fishy is sad, Mr Fishy would have like to have seen a magic crafting gageteer.
"I have just the potion for this," potion eats though a door. "I got a potion for this to," throws a bomb into a group of enemies.
"Watch this," drinks a potion and grows into a giant monster. Pretty much a mage in a bottle fireball gernades and glitter dust bombs
+1
Things I think the alchemist needs:
#1 The ability to make potions/alchemical substances that go up to 9th level, on par with a 17th level Artificer or a Wizard 7/Master Alchemist 10.
#2 The ability to make alchemical substances that are not on the standard list, such as magical smoke bombs, gasses, incense, oils, unguents and perfumes.
#3 The ability to make magical poisons.
#4 Both eternal youth and the philosopher's stone as a capstone ability, without an either/or. Maybe Eternal Youth + 1 philosopher's stone per year, rather than month.
#5 Less insistence on the "magical aura" business and more on actual science or at least pseudo-science. I'd rather play MacGyver than Gambit.
#6 Fireworks. Really, you've got exploding stuff and no one's making fireworks?
+2
YES, YES, AND MORE YES!
How about allowing the formulae work through entering the bloodstream, like injury poisons? It could reduce the need for infusions, since you could heal or buff your allies by attacking or injecting them. (I'd say the extract stays "in your possession" if it's on a weapon or in a syringe)
And then if you add a couple of damage-dealing "spells" to the formula list, it would add some synergy between the poison-use aspect and the extract-making aspect.
How about allowing the formulae work through entering the bloodstream, like injury poisons? It could reduce the need for infusions, since you could heal or buff your allies by attacking or injecting them. (I'd say the extract stays "in your possession" if it's on a weapon or in a syringe)
And then if you add a couple of damage-dealing "spells" to the formula list, it would add some synergy between the poison-use aspect and the extract-making aspect.
I thought of the same thing: you use a formula of invisibility by drinking it yourself, and you use a formula of phantasmal killer by throwing it at someone.
Specifically, I think that an alchemist should be able to turn any spell into a formula as long as it's from a given subset of spells (e.g. "any spell that targets one or more creatures or targets 'You' and that is from the school of transmutation, abjuration, divination, conjuration (healing), illusion, or necromancy").
I thought of the same thing: you use a formula of invisibility by drinking it yourself, and you use a formula of phantasmal killer by throwing it at someone.
Throwing formulae would be fun, to be sure! But I'd like it even better if we could add them to our weapons like poisons, and get both the weapon damage and the formula effect at the same time. (provided the alchemist makes his attack roll, of course.)
I agree that Brew Potion should be given away for free AND I'll add that he should get it at 1st level. He should also get to brew his extracts and mutagens and alchemical items for less gold.
Bombs I feel should be made more customizable. Also, let the alchemist create the bomb before-hand. The whole "make-it-on-the-fly" mechanic seems kinda unnecessary. Just make it so it goes inert in a day if it isn't maintained.
Also, give the alchemist the ability to extend the "expiration date" on any extract/bomb/mutagen that he makes somewhere in his progression and I'd like to see rockets added to his repertoire.
I agree that Brew Potion should be given away for free AND I'll add that he should get it at 1st level. He should also get to brew his extracts and mutagens and alchemical items for less gold.
Bombs I feel should be made more customizable. Also, let the alchemist create the bomb before-hand. The whole "make-it-on-the-fly" mechanic seems kinda unnecesary. Just make it so it goes inert in a day if it isn't maintained.
Also give the alchemist the ability to extend the "expiration date" on any extract/bomb/mutagen that he makes somewhere in his progression.
If you take the delay bomb discovery you can premake all your bombs.
I would simply allow him to count them against the next days preparations personally and not make him remix them. (on the expiration date thing)
Though I'm personally looking forward to playing an alchemist and selling cheap cure light wounds potions (ONLY 30 GP!) for one day only!
...holy crap, this is the perfect Snake Oil Salesman class isn't it?
My doubts and sorrows have instantly evaporated! (Not really, but now I'm actually interested in playing this class!)
I would like to see an ability to mix extracts to get the benefits of multiple extracts at the same time. Say at 10th level or so he gets the ability to combine to extracts but of no higher level total than the highest level of extract he can prepare f.ex. this could increase to three effect at 20th level. There could be a fun side effect table for mixing extracts to add some risks to the process. Also the ability to add metamagic effects to his extracts.
When it comes to bombs I would like to see a class feature or discovery which allowed him to throw multiple bombs in one round.
I would also like the alchemist to be able to prepare all spells that affect a creature as extracts, but he has to learn it just like a wizard learns spells and put it in a book of recipes. I really hate classes with new spell lists, it makes it so hard to implement material from other sources like the spell compendium, and if it is one class that should have a large list of spells it should be the alchemist. This would be very easy with this class just list a number of schools and sub-schools appropriate for the alchemist and a note that only effects that affect a creature can be learned. Have him progress much like a wizard and with no limit to how many recipes he can learn, but he has to add them to his recipe book at the same cost it takes for a wizard to add spells to his spellbook.
Not to sure about the poison use aspect of the class, I think this should be a discovery so that those who wanted to explore such avenues could, but it wouldn't be an essential class ability.
Though I'm personally looking forward to playing an alchemist and selling cheap cure light wounds potions (ONLY 30 GP!) for one day only!
+1 for THAT.
Gods, you're a genius.
Maybe its just me, but I feel that the Craft(alchemy) skill should play a bigger part in this class than it does now. What preform is to the bard craft(alchemy)should be to the alchemist.
Again maybe its just me.
Thoughts?
Maybe its just me, but I feel that the Craft(alchemy) skill should play a bigger part in this class than it does now. What preform is to the bard craft(alchemy)should be to the alchemist.
Again maybe its just me.
Thoughts?
I completely concur. NOT having Craft(Alchemy) playing a key role in this class really, REALLY is a disappointment. I like the direction this class is headed, but the flavour of the class is a bit...off.
I also agree that Brew Potion should be a bonus feat at some point in the path. Due to the specific alchemical nature of this class, possibly allow the Alchemist class to craft potions of spell level 4 (just an off-the-cuff idea that I have not really thought about so please keep flames to a minimum).
Some interesting elements here. I will be watching this one closely.
|
My suggestions mirror many here, so forgive me if I restate some in my own list:
A) Infusion is a class ability gained at Level 1
B) Discoveries every 3 levels
C) BREW POTION
D) Mutagens need to grant an alchemical bonus, not enhancement
E) Bomb mixing might need to be eventually sped up to swift actions
F) More Discoveries such as
F1) Concentrate poison: combine 2 doses into 1 to increase the save DC by +4
F2) Distill Extract/Potion: using time and/or money, precombine 2 extracts/potions (but not 1 of each) into 1 dose
F3) Potion Breakthrough: The highest level spell you can make into a potion is increased by +1, you can take this multiple times (4th lvl potions, 5th lvl potions, etc).
F4) Recombination: Combine a Mutagen with an Extract, drink 1 vial of Recombined Mutagen/Extract and have both take effect in 1 action.
G1) Alchemical Lab Notebook: like a spellbook, allow alchemists to add new formulae to their book. If the class has such a limited "spell" selection, let them add to their book. I wouldn't mind if that meant the "spontaneous" aspect of their "casting" went away too. Have a notebook full of formulae, spend 1 minute each (or 1 minute per spell level) mixing it up, tote them around all day.
OR G2) Greatly expand the list of possible formulae (or let them brew potions of any spell, not just alchemist spells).
Just a few random thoughts. I think these would make the class a LOT more party friendly/playable.
Why do Alchemist get Disable Device as a skill? I'm not seeing the connection between mixing elixirs and alchemical concoctions and the ability to disarming traps and picking locks?
Why do Alchemist get Disable Device as a skill? I'm not seeing the connection between mixing elixirs and alchemical concoctions and the ability to disarming traps and picking locks?"Hold on, you purse-cutting twit! That's a gelatinous acid spray trap! If you botch the job you'll melt your fingers off! Let me handle it..."
Good, if not colorful, justification. +1
Good, if not colorful, justification. +1Why do Alchemist get Disable Device as a skill? I'm not seeing the connection between mixing elixirs and alchemical concoctions and the ability to disarming traps and picking locks?"Hold on, you purse-cutting twit! That's a gelatinous acid spray trap! If you botch the job you'll melt your fingers off! Let me handle it..."
"Ya know, I wouldn't touch that door if I was ya... see that there has a needle in it with a poison on the needle... I should know I sold the poor bloke the poison. Not something ya wanna git in ya."
His major thing is bombs, extracts, poisons and potions... how could he not have something to do with traps?
Which is why I want him to get trapfinding...
Good, if not colorful, justification. +1Why do Alchemist get Disable Device as a skill? I'm not seeing the connection between mixing elixirs and alchemical concoctions and the ability to disarming traps and picking locks?"Hold on, you purse-cutting twit! That's a gelatinous acid spray trap! If you botch the job you'll melt your fingers off! Let me handle it...""Ya know, I wouldn't touch that door if I was ya... see that there has a needle in it with a poison on the needle... I should know I sold the poor bloke the poison. Not something ya wanna git in ya."
His major thing is bombs, extracts, poisons and potions... how could he not have something to do with traps?
Which is why I want him to get trapfinding...
Honestly guys, I'm with sysane here. Being a whiz with chemicals is hardly automatic justification for being able to spot a pit trap or knowing how to disable a falling blade without injury.
I could see it as a discovery type of thing - elective, for alchemists who actually do specialize in trap-like things, but it's hardly something that all of them should get.
.......G1) Alchemical Lab Notebook: like a spellbook, allow alchemists to add new formulae to their book. If the class has such a limited "spell" selection, let them add to their book. I wouldn't mind if that meant the "spontaneous" aspect of their "casting" went away too. Have a notebook full of formulae, spend 1 minute each (or 1 minute per spell level) mixing it up, tote them around all day.
and G2) Greatly expand the list of possible formulae (or let them brew potions of any spell, not just alchemist spells).
+1
the elixir part of the alchemist should work more like the wizard, elixirs picked at the start of the day. with the bombs working more free form. just because it has the spellcasting progression of the bard doesn't mean it has to work exactly like the bard.
on top of a lot of the above stuff, i would like to see the bomb making work faster (even if only as the alchemist levels up). and oh god do they need to throw farther than the normal person. it could be a leveled ability 10' at first ending at 100', or so. who throws a explosive devise only 10' away when it does damage in a radius.
A) Infusion is a class ability gained at Level 1
While I'm not so big about this one, I understand why others are, so I'll agree here.
B) Discoveries every 3 levels
I'd prefer every other level, like rogue talents (and way more discoveries to choose from for all available abilites - bombs, extracts, mutagens, & poisons).
C) BREW POTION
I'm fairly certain we'll be getting this one, and I hope they'll be way better at it than most.
D) Mutagens need to grant an alchemical bonus, not enhancement
Definitely.
E) Bomb mixing might need to be eventually sped up to swift actions
Bomb making just needs to be clarified in general. As someone else pointed out in another thread, it's damn near impossible to do at the moment without suffering from a severe butt-kicking from AoOs (especially with the 10 ft range increment).
F1) Concentrate poison: combine 2 doses into 1 to increase the save DC by +4
F2) Distill Extract/Potion: using time and/or money, precombine 2 extracts/potions (but not 1 of each) into 1 dose
I approve of all of these.
F3) Potion Breakthrough: The highest level spell you can make into a potion is increased by +1, you can take this multiple times (4th lvl potions, 5th lvl potions, etc).
I disagree. Not that this one shouldn't exist, but that this is one of the things that should be an automatic thing. If we're going down the magical alchemist route (which I'm getting more and more comfortable with, especially after someone making a Dresden comparison that made things click in my head), then potions are the one thing every alchemist should be doing better than anyone else.
F4) Recombination: Combine a Mutagen with an Extract, drink 1 vial of Recombined Mutagen/Extract and have both take effect in 1 action.
This one is interesting, but could have balance effects due to extending extract durations. (Lowering the mutagen durations, considering the time it takes to make them, is just not an option)
G1) Alchemical Lab Notebook: like a spellbook, allow alchemists to add new formulae to their book. If the class has such a limited "spell" selection, let them add to their book. I wouldn't mind if that meant the "spontaneous" aspect of their "casting" went away too. Have a notebook full of formulae, spend 1 minute each (or 1 minute per spell level) mixing it up, tote them around all day.
OR G2) Greatly expand the list of possible formulae (or let them brew potions of any spell, not just alchemist spells).
I'm voting for both here. The list is far too small, and I think there should be offensive extracts that get used like poisons.
I've just had a good idea for a breakthrough: Rockets. They're basically the same as a bomb, but self-propelled. You could make it so that any rocket you make trades off power for range.
I've just had a good idea for a breakthrough: Rockets. They're basically the same as a bomb, but self-propelled. You could make it so that any rocket you make trades off power for range.
This is not a horrible idea at all. I like it.
1) Brew potion!! or the ability to make potions using craft(alchemy) modified by spellcraft or knowledge(arcana).
- If brew potion then speed up brewing time when you get swift alchemy and later instant alchemy
- On that note, why is swift alchemy at lvl. 3 and instant not until lvl. 18? Just seems kind of odd to me . . .
2) More fromulae, lose the spontaneous and gain a book that you can add more too. Alchemists were tinkerers who would have volume after volume of notes so why all of the sudden are they spontaneous and sparadic.
3) As bombs increase damage they should also increase range and area ass well as add energy types.
- Some way to avoid the AoO maybe at later levels.
4) Mutagens advance as you level(lvl.1 +2, lvl.5 +4/+2, lvl.10 +6/+4/+2, lvl.15 +6/+6/+4, lvl.20 +6/+6/+6)
- Make the bonus something other than enhancement . . . alchemical maybe seeing as you are a bloody alchemist.
- Make the player chose the ability score and not be able to change it.
- - For example: Str at lvl.1, Dex lvl.5 and, Con at lvl.10 or Dex at lvl.1, Con lvl.5 and, Str at lvl.10.
5) Discoveries don't necessarily need to be more often but if you get rid of overlaps you reduce the list by a couple and if make the bombs advance on their own you could get rid of 7 or 8 more.
|
|
This one is interesting, but could have balance effects due to extending extract durations. (Lowering the mutagen durations, considering the time it takes to make them, is just not an option)
F4) Recombination: Combine a Mutagen with an Extract, drink 1 vial of Recombined Mutagen/Extract and have both take effect in 1 action.
I didn't mean to alter the duration of either, just make the equivalent of the "Quicken Spell" feat for Alchemists.
If anyone is interested, I've posted a new thread called Alchemist Rebuild Based of Numerous Suggestion Posts that is a rebuild of the Alchemist based on many of your suggestions,and others from other threads. Go check it out and comment.
I'd like to see craft(alchemy) play a bigger part of this class. How, I'm not sure. I could come up with a few things with time.
As I've mentioned in another thread, what Preform is to Bards, Craft (alchemy) should be to Alchemists.
I agree Sysane. It'd be nice to have his primary feature be incorporated more fully, and usable for a variety of things, like the bard's Perform. Perhaps use it to double as Feats or Skills needed to create potions, elixirs, alchemical-like wondrous items, perhaps wands, etc.