One kooky idea I had was to increase the number of formulas that the alchemist could use per day, and then change the Bomb ability into a special formula that he can spontaneously convert to. Then the various bomb Discoveries could be changed into bonus "metamagic feats".
For instance, in that system an alchemist could spontaneously convert any 1st level formula into a "Light Bomb", or he could spontaneously convert a 3rd level formula into a "Serious Bomb" or an "Empowered Light Bomb" or an "Acid Moderate Bomb".
(I doubt that we'll see such a radical rewrite of the alchemist class, though.)
One kooky idea I had was to increase the number of formulas that the alchemist could use per day, and then change the Bomb ability into a special formula that he can spontaneously convert to. Then the various bomb Discoveries could be changed into bonus "metamagic feats".
For instance, in that system an alchemist could spontaneously convert any 1st level formula into a "Light Bomb", or he could spontaneously convert a 3rd level formula into a "Serious Bomb" or an "Empowered Light Bomb" or an "Acid Moderate Bomb".
(I doubt that we'll see such a radical rewrite of the alchemist class, though.)
Serious bombs for serious business.
I've just had a good idea for a breakthrough: Rockets. They're basically the same as a bomb, but self-propelled. You could make it so that any rocket you make trades off power for range.
A cool idea, but I'd say he should trade precision for range. I doubt one could make a very precise rocket.
A few of the ideas that I would like to 2nd:
-Brew Potion.
That's an obvious one.
-Mutagens Giving "Alchemical" bonuses.
Again, an obvious idea.
-More Discoveries
Honestly, two or three more would suffice.
-Trapfinding
I am violently opposed to the idea that someone with a high skill can't find magic traps w/o a special class feature, but if it's going to be a rule, you need to give this skill to Alchemists.
-Fireworks
That was a glaring oversight.
-Throw Anything
Honestly, adding the Alchemist's Int. bonus to all thrown damage rolls (instead of just splash weapons)... not that game breaking. And, it makes for a decent Thrown Weapons character as well.
Now, onto my biggest Alchemist observation:
Alchemist's have 4 + Int. Mod. skill points, which would normally make them a side "expert" class... until you realize that the Alchemist naturally has a very high Intelligence.
I'm currently playing an alchemist who gets over 10 skill points/level & who is wearing a headband to bump my intellect (which gives me even more skills).
What I'm saying is, Alchemists never lack for skill points, but they haven't been approached as a skill class, & that is something I would like to see addressed.
Here are my ideas on how:
1) Expanded Skill List: Linguistics, Knowledge (Geography), & Knowledge (planes) would be easy to justify. And really, why can't the Alchemist have some movement skills, like Climb, Acrobatics, & Swim. They do have to go out & gather ingredients! Finally, this may be a personal bias, but if a class has Disable Device as a class skill, then Knowledge (Engineering) should be added to the list as well.
2) Special Skill Options: Three words: "Epic Alchemy Items."
3) Unique Extracts and/or Mutagens based on Skill Ranks.
The # of skill points do NOT need to be increased. I'm serious on this one. The Alchemist has plenty of skill points, they just need something to do with them.
Serious bombs for serious business.One kooky idea I had was to increase the number of formulas that the alchemist could use per day, and then change the Bomb ability into a special formula that he can spontaneously convert to. Then the various bomb Discoveries could be changed into bonus "metamagic feats".
For instance, in that system an alchemist could spontaneously convert any 1st level formula into a "Light Bomb", or he could spontaneously convert a 3rd level formula into a "Serious Bomb" or an "Empowered Light Bomb" or an "Acid Moderate Bomb".
(I doubt that we'll see such a radical rewrite of the alchemist class, though.)
The name is negotiable.
;-)
non-magic variant... bombs, extracts, etc., mundane and not magical...
Thats an interesting premise. I could see the alchemist creating non-magical bombs that could work in dead magic areas, punch through spell resistance, ignore anti-magic field or globes of invulnerability. It would fill an interesting niche.
Might be overpowered however. Making it a Discovery that could be applied to bombs may balance it out somewhat.
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Well I see very nice ideas and all but can someone actually give solutions. Explain how would the progression would be if you put Discovery every 3 levels instead of 4 and what ability do you put were Discovery was in some levels (were you only gain that), or how would alchemy would you rewrite the alchemy ability to work properly acording to how you think it should.
PS: Sorry for any bad spelling, english is not my first language.
Best Regards to you all!
After playtesting the alchemist I have figured out his description. He is not the labrat you get the feeling of at first glance. He is an adventurer who goes out in the big nasty world to discover new stuff. He is a clever one with a solution to most problems in somewhat unorthodox ways. When you really scrounge the books (and then I mean all the books) for alchemical items you see there are helpful non magical contraptions and alchemical items for almost every situation. Who needs the light spell? He has sunrods, who needs the darkvision spell? He has night drops. Can't get to the top of that building? Grapple shooting crossbow etc. It's not the class abilities that forms most his role, it's his equipment. To me he is an alternative rogue, a jack of all trades, a joker, a wild card. Yes he has certain flaws that stop him in certain areas. But with a good bag of holding and a handy haversack filled with random stuff, many of these obstacles can be countered. There is only one problem, everything he can do the other classes can do as well. At this moment he is a partial rogue with some minor arcane beef and divine healing. Which to me is not a bad idea at all, he just need something to make him unique.
When that is said I would like to issue the problems of bombs.
I don't think the bombs in themselves are the problem. They're good, they just don't have enough options. In my head the alchemist makes a two component mix wich is rather harmless untill he infuses it temporal volatile energy. In other words he pulls out the flask/bottle/container and gives it the little "umph" it needs to make it's rather destructive point, before he throws it towards his adversary. I think it's rather important that the "umph" bit is a swift action so he can actually draw it, "umph" it and throw it in the same round. Maybe even on a later level let him give up to two bombs the little "umph" they need so he can actually throw two in a round if he have them ready in his hands. But then again that is just random thoughts.
Mutagens
I haven't tested this one yet, but I agree with the charisma damage since it keeps it at bay. In other words you don't use it as a standard buff in every fight. You don't want to use it until it's really needed, but then again the "power" you gain is not that impressive, neither on the paper or in game visually.
Extracts
YOU drink it, and something happens to YOU. I think that's a rather important part to remember. I am not to fond of thrown extracts, though I can see the point to some examples. But if you make a hole in the dam it will sooner or later burst. Keep it rather simple, give him a "Research Journal" and he has only the Target: you, and beneficial target: creature per level spells, except it only would work on the person that drinks the actual extract. And yes I say person, it's not the end of the world to give him the possibility to give his extracts to other people as default. If the extract must be used within a day the problem is solved. Something that would make him unique would be to make the extracts "permanent" so to speak. As long as he saves a daily slot to maintain the extract it can go on forever or until used. In that way he could give an extract with shield to the monk who could use it whenever he wanted to. Unless the alchemist stops maintaining the power needed and makes a different one. Just a thought.
Poisons
I don't really know about this, yes I agree with the poison use ability. He got steady hands, done deal. I also agree with the poison resistance, considering how much unhealthy stuff he consumes over the time. But in general poisons should be a choice not something they are all trained in. And it should be given a bigger role if you would go for it.
Discoveries
One every fourth level is a bit harsh, a couple extra. Tone them down if you have to, but give him more. It is not just power it is also flavor, and to me that's more important.
Stuff that people often mention is:
Trap Finding
I think he deserves this, like I said earlier he's an adventurer like all the other player classes.
Evasion
I can see it, dodging a lot of stuff he creates in the field. But it's not mandatory.
Brew Potion
Both yes and no. If he can share his extracts as default I really don't see the point anymore.
Craft: Alchemy
I think this should be his discovery cap. A certain amount of ranks in alchemy to be able to gain a certain discovery.
Unique Extracts
That would be nice, something that no other except the alchemist can create. Something that would define his role. Maybe even the path he is on.
Anyway these are my opinions about the alchemist after I have tried it. I really do like the alchemist and I enjoy his flavor and style. He just needs a little more tweaking, not necessarily much but just enough to get him back on his feets.
After playtesting the alchemist I have figured out his description. He is not the labrat you get the feeling of at first glance. He is an adventurer who goes out in the big nasty world to discover new stuff. He is a clever one with a solution to most problems in somewhat unorthodox ways. When you really scrounge the books (and then I mean all the books) for alchemical items you see there are helpful non magical contraptions and alchemical items for almost every situation. Who needs the light spell? He has sunrods, who needs the darkvision spell? He has night drops. Can't get to the top of that building? Grapple shooting crossbow etc. It's not the class abilities that forms most his role, it's his equipment. To me he is an alternative rogue, a jack of all trades, a joker, a wild card. Yes he has certain flaws that stop him in certain areas. But with a good bag of holding and a handy haversack filled with random stuff, many of these obstacles can be countered. There is only one problem, everything he can do the other classes can do as well. At this moment he is a partial rogue with some minor arcane beef and divine healing. Which to me is not a bad idea at all, he just need something to make him unique.
But...EVERYONE can use equipment.
In fact, the alchemist is ironically no better at craft: alchemy then any other class.
I think that would make sense for the Alchemist to receive some sort of bonus when using Spellcraft to identify potions or other alchemical based magic items. I think a competence bonus equal 1/2 or full class level would be fitting.
Don't know if its been suggested before but think it was worth mentioning.
This just popped into my head and i wanted to see what the machine could turn it into.
The alchemist has some badass poison abilities, what about being allowed to turn spells into poisons. a poison of geas, charm monster/person, and the like, even baneful polymorph. some make more sense as a drinkable poison than any sorta poison applied to a knife, but it could be cool. and it'd make good use of the poison abilities.
After playtesting the alchemist I have figured out his description. He is not the labrat you get the feeling of at first glance. He is an adventurer who goes out in the big nasty world to discover new stuff. He is a clever one with a solution to most problems in somewhat unorthodox ways. When you really scrounge the books (and then I mean all the books) for alchemical items you see there are helpful non magical contraptions and alchemical items for almost every situation. Who needs the light spell? He has sunrods, who needs the darkvision spell? He has night drops. Can't get to the top of that building? Grapple shooting crossbow etc. It's not the class abilities that forms most his role, it's his equipment. To me he is an alternative rogue, a jack of all trades, a joker, a wild card. Yes he has certain flaws that stop him in certain areas. But with a good bag of holding and a handy haversack filled with random stuff, many of these obstacles can be countered. There is only one problem, everything he can do the other classes can do as well. At this moment he is a partial rogue with some minor arcane beef and divine healing. Which to me is not a bad idea at all, he just need something to make him unique.But...EVERYONE can use equipment.
In fact, the alchemist is ironically no better at craft: alchemy then any other class.
That was my point as well.
I think that would make sense for the Alchemist to receive some sort of bonus when using Spellcraft to identify potions or other alchemical based magic items. I think a competence bonus equal 1/2 or full class level would be fitting.
Actually want to revise this idea. I think that the alchemist should be able to use his Craft(alchemy) skill in place of his Spellcraft skill when identifying potions or alchemical based magic items with a +2 bouns.
In fact, the alchemist is ironically no better at craft: alchemy then any other class.
Um... I know the alchemist's use of Craft (alchemy) is almost completely irrelevant to the class' primary functions, but let's not be so hyperbolic as to disregard the rules text, eh?
When using Craft (alchemy) to create an alchemical item, an alchemist gains a competence bonus equal to his class level to the Craft (alchemy) check.
I designed a version of the alchemist that can specialize in one of the 4 fields of study (bombs, elixirs (mutagens--sounds too TMNT too me!), formulas, and poisons), while dabbling in the others. I also increased the amount of discoveries a bit since they really add to the flavor of the alchemist. I added the "doses" mechanic so there would be a built-in daily use mechanic for some effects, but wouldn't diminish the at will effects of the alchemist. A lot of the language is still a bit clunky; I need to edit it to make it smoother.
I also realized I forgot to make a Surgery discovery to make use of the Heal skill. Something to think about...
Alchemist
BAB: +3/4
Good Saves: Fort and Reflex
Hit Dice: 1d8
Class Skills: Appraise, Craft, Disable Device, Fly, Heal, Knowledge (arcana, dungeoneering, engineering, nature, planes), Linguistics, Perception, Profession, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft, Survival, Use Magic Device.
Skill Ranks Per Level: 4 + Int modifier.
Alchemists are proficient in all Simple Weapons and all light melee martial weapons. Alchemists are proficient in Light Armor, but not shields.
LEVEL ABILITY
1. Alchemy, Discovery, Doses
2. Discovery
3. Exalted Alchemy 2
4. Greater Alchemy 2
5. Discovery, Lesser Alchemy 2
6. Exalted Alchemy 3
7. Base Alchemy 2
8. Discovery, Greater Alchemy 3
9. Exalted Alchemy 4
10. Lesser Alchemy 3
11. Discovery
12. Exalted Alchemy 5, Greater Alchemy 4
13. Base Alchemy 3
14. Discovery
15. Exalted Alchemy 6, Lesser Alchemy 4
16. Greater Alchemy 5
17. Discovery
18. Exalted Alchemy 7
19. Base Alchemy 4
20. Discovery, Greater Alchemy 6, Lesser Alchemy 5
Alchemy (Bombs (Su), Elixirs (Su), Formulas (Sp), Poisons (Ex)) Alchemists learn to use 4 different kinds of alchemy: bombs, elixirs, formulas, and poisons. Bombs are normal alchemical items, such as acid or alchemist's fire, that the alchemist supernaturally empowers to greater effect. Elixirs are supernatural concoctions the alchemist brewed to enhance his physiology, often grotesquely. Formulas are spell-like abilities that alter the fundamental elements of creation. Poisons are natural toxins the alchemist has learned how to create.
Different alchemists specialize in different fields of study. At 1st level, the alchemist must choose one of the 4 fields of study (bomb, elixir, formula, or poison) and designate it his Exalted Alchemy. He must then designate the remaining fields of studies as Greater Alchemy, Lesser Alchemy, and Base Alchemy. In his Exalted Alchemy, an alchemist can eventually learn 7th level powers; in his Greater Alchemy an alchemist can eventually learn 6th level powers; in his Lesser Alchemy, an alchemist can eventually learn 5th level powers; and in his Base Alchemy, an alchemist can only learn upto 4th level powers.
At 1st level, an Alchemist learns two 1st level powers from his Exalted Alchemy and one 1st level power from each of his Greater, Lesser, and Base Alchemies. At 2nd level, and every level thereafter, the Alchemist learns an additional power from his Exalted Alchemy. At 3rd level, and every 3 levels thereafter, he can choose to learn a power from the next higher level. At 2nd level, and every level thereafter, the Alchemist also chooses an additional power for 1 of his three minor alchemies. After 2nd level, the alchemist cannot choose an alchemical power from the same field of study 2 levels in a row.
Bombs (Su). Alchemists can turn normal flasks of acid or alchemist's fire into bombs. The base damage increases to 1d10 at 1st level, +1d10 per increase in Power level. Increasing the damage of the alchemical item does not take an action; it is based on the alchemist's expertise with alchemical items. The Save DC of an alchemical item used by an alchemist, including his bombs, is 10 + 1/2 his alchemist class level + his Intelligence modifier. An Alchemist can spend one of his daily doses to produce a bomb.
Alchemical Bomb Powers
1. Increase Splash Radius by 5 feet
1. Cold Damage
1. Electrical Damage
1. Sonic Damage
1. Entangle 1 round per Int bonus + 1 per die of damage
1. Increase Range Increment to 20 feet
1. Obscuring Mist
1. Darkness
2. Increase Direct Hit Radius to 5 feet
2. +1d10 per round (Save negates, Upto Int bonus rounds)
2. Acid + sickened
2. Cold + fatigued
2. Electrical + dazed
2. Fire + dazzled
2. Sonic + deafened
2. Increase Range Increment to 30 feet
2. Fog Cloud
2. Glitterdust
3. Increase Direct Hit Radius to 10 feet
3. Force Damage
3. Negative Energy Damage
3. Bludgeoning Damage + Grease
3. Piercing Damage + Spike Stones
3. Slashing Damage + difficult terrain
3. Increase Range Increment to 40 feet
3. Stinking Cloud
3. Delay explosion (upto Int bonus rounds)
4. Increase Direct Hit Radius to 15 feet
4. +2d10 per round (Save negates, upto Int bonus rounds)
4. Acid + nauseated
4. Cold + exhausted
4. Electricity + stunned
4. Fire + blinded
4. Sonic + sunder/shatter
4. Increase Range Increment to 50 feet
4. Solid Fog
5. Increase Direct Hit Radius to 20 feet
5. Force Damage + Bullrushed out Area of Effect
5. Negative Energy + 1 negative level
5. Increase Range Increment to 60 feet
5. Bludgeoning + Black Tentacles
5. Piercing + Spike Stones (2d6)
5. Slashing + Bear-Trapped in place
5. Cloudkill
6. Increase Direct Hit Radius to 30 feet
6. +3d10/round (Save negates, upto Int bonus rounds)
6. Increase Range Increment to 70 feet
6. Acid Cloud
6. Acid + disolve (as disintegrate)
6. Cold + petrified (turn to ice)
6. Electricity + paralysis
6. Fire + incinerate (as disintegrate)
6. Sonic + shatter (as disintegrate)
7. Increase Direct Hit Radius to 40 feet
7. Increase Range Increment to 80 feet
7. Incendiary Cloud
7. Bludgeoning + Earthquake
7. Piercing + Wall of Thorns
7. Slashing + Blade Barrier
7. Force + Resilient Sphere
7. Negative Energy + 1d10 negative levels
7. Antimagic
7. Reverse Gravity
Elixirs (Su). Elixirs are alchemical concoctions brewed by the alchemist to enhance his physiology. If a non-alchemist drinks an elixir, they must make a Fortitude Save (DC 10 + 1/2 the alchemist's level + the alchemist's Int modifier) or become nauseated for 1 hour. Success means the subject is sickened for 1 minute. The effects of an elixir persist for 24 hours or until the alchemist drinks another elixir. Brewing an elixir takes 1 hour. An alchemist can use one of his daily doses to make an elixir.
Alchemical Elixirs
1. +2 Strength & monk-like unarmed damage
1. +2 Dexterity & +10 Speed & Weapon Finesse
1. +2 Consitution & +2 natural armor & Endurance
1. Breathe Fire once every 1d4 rounds (1d6/level), Fire Res 5
1. +4 Perception, darkvision, see invisible
2. +8 Acrobatics and Climb, +5 feet reach, brachiation
2. +8 Disguise and Stealth, Swift Invisiblity 1/1d4 rounds
2. Ram 2d6 +2d6 charging, Improved Bull Rush
2. Blindsense, Swift Fly 1/1d4 rounds or Shield
2. Enlarge
3. Bonespurs (1d6 vs non-reach, shot as shortbow or 1/minute sphere)
3. Venomous Bite
3. Scent and DR 5/silver and lick wounds (Con x level hp/day)
3. Displacement + 2 reaching tentacle attacks
3.
4. Overland Flight
4. Freedom of Movement
4. See in Darkness
4. +5 hit points/level
4.
5. SR 10 + level & Greater Dispel Magic by touch
5. Tremorsense
5.
5.
5.
6. Windwalker
6. Blindsight
6. Huge
6.
6.
7. Dark Discorporation
7. Constant Invisiblity
7. True Sight & +16 Sense Motive
7. Iron Body
Alchemical Formulas (Sp). Alchemical Formulas are spell-like abilities that alter or create one of the four classical elements: air, earth, fire, or water. To use an Alchemical Formula, the alchemist must make a Craft alchemy check with a DC of 10 + 5 x the power level of the alchemical formula. This DC of the Craft alchemy check increases by 2 for each additional time the alchemist attempts the same formula within 24 hours. Alchemical Formulas of levels 1 and 2 are called apprentice level formulas and deal exclusively with air, earth, fire, and water. Alchemical formulas of levels 3 and 4 are called journeyman level formulas, and deal with combining 2 elements to make other materials and energies. Alchemical formulas of levels 5 and 6 are called master level formulas, and deal with combining 3 elements together to make other materials and energies. 7th level formulas are grandmaster level, and can be used to create and alter living creatures. An alchemist can use one of his daily doses to grant himself a +5 bonus on the Craft alchemy check to use a formula.
Alchemical Formulas
1. Aura
Air 20% miss chance
Earth +4 AC
Fire 1d6 & Fire Res 5
Water DR 2/-
1. Blast
Air Ranged Combat Manuver (Bull Rush, Disarm, Trip)
Earth Magic Stone
Fire Produce Flame
Water non-lethal Produce "flame"
1. Melee
Air Updraft and falling damage
Earth 2d6 bludgeoning
Fire Flame Blade
Water Increase reach 5 feet
1. Movement
Air Featherfall & Jump
Earth Increased CMD, Pass without Trace, Flawless Stride
Fire +30 feet and Up the Walls
Water Swim speed & Hold Breath bonus
1. Area
Air Fog Cloud
Earth Stomp (reflex or prone) & difficult terrain
Fire Burning Hands
Water Non-lethal and Fort or Stun/Daze
1. Utility
Air Mage Hand/Unseen Servant w/ Str=CL, Ventriloquism
Earth Alarm
Fire Light/Faerie Fire
Water Create Water/Purify Water/Clean as Prestigitation
fire + water = acid
fire + earth = base metal
earth + water = cold
air + fire = electricity
air + earth = force
air + water = sonic
air + earth + fire =Exalted Metals
air + earth + water = Wood
air + fire + water = Poison? Healing? Medicine?
earth + fire + water = Death? (lack of breath?)
Air + Earth + Fire + Water = Living Creatures,
Alchemical Poisons (Ex). Alchemists can make alchemical poisons. These poisons cause ability damage (Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, or Cha), as chosen by the alchemist at the time of creation. Alchemical Poisons have a Fortitude Save DC of 10 + the alchemist's class level + his Intelligence modifier. Alchemical Poisons cause ability damage for a number of rounds equal to the Alchemist's Intelligence bonus (minimum 1), and are resisted after a single saving throw. The amount of the ability damage is based on the power level of the alchemist's field of study in in Poison:
1. 1d2
2. 1d3
3. 1d4
4. 1d6
5. 1d8
6. 1d10
7. 1d12
Alchemical Poisons also have one or more carrier effects, as selected as field of study powers. An alchemist can use one of his daily doses to create poison.
Alchemical Poison Effects
1. Bleed (1/2 alchemist level/round)
1. Dazed 1 rd
1. Dazzled 1 minute
1. Fascinated 1 minute
1. Fatigued 1 minute
1. Prone
1. Slowed Reactions (no AoO 1 rd)
2. Lesser Confused 1 rd
2. Entangled 1 min
2. Shaken 1 min
2. Sickened 1 min
2. Sleep 1 min/level
2. Spell Hindered (Concentration check DC increased by level 1 min)
3. Deafened
3. Exhausted 1 minute
3. Flatfooted 1 round
3. Grappled 1 minute
3. Slowed 1 minute
3. Stunned 1 round
3. Decreased Spell Resistance by 1 per round of failed saves
3. Weak Willed -1 Will/round
3. Wobbly -1 Reflex/round
3. Woozy -1 Fortitude/round
3. Silenced--cannot speak
3. Deep Slumber 10 minutes/level
3. -1 AC/round
3. Confused 1 round/level
3. Crushing Despair
4. Blinded
4. Negative Level
4. Frightened
4. Nauseated
4. Paralyzed
4. Staggered
4. Gain Energy Vulnerability
4. Dispels Magic
4. Suggestion
4. Reduce DR by 2/round of failed save
4. Zombify (re-animate as a zombie when killed)
4. Dimensionally Anchored
4. Modified Memory (forget)
5. Disabled
5. Pinned
5. Cannot regain hit points through magic
5. Lose DR
5. Dismissal
5. Cannot Breathe for 3 rounds/level
5. Nightmare
6. Panicked
6. Unconscious
6. Insane
6. Greater Dispel Magic
6. Antimagic
6. Discord
7. Cowering
7. Dead
7. Helpless
7. Petrified
7. 1 Negative Level/failed save
7. Does not naturally heal
7. Irresistable Dance
7. Temporal Stasis
Discovery. At 1st level, the alchemist learns a single discovery. He learns one additional discovery at 2nd level, and every 3 levels thereafter (5, 8, 11, 14, 17, and 20). The alchemist can always choose to learn a lower level discovery in place of a higher level discovery.
1. Trapfinding
1. Throw Anything
1. Elemental Focus +1 DC
1. Quickdraw Alchemy
1. Alchemical Deep Pockets
1. Poison Use
1. Add Int bonus to direct hit damage and splash damage
2. Poison Resistance 1
2. Brew Potion
2. Improved Craft Alchemy (+1/2 level)
2. Extend Poison (+1 round of duration)
2. Poison Focus (+2 Save DC)
5. Master Craftsman
5. Greater Elemental Focus
5. Greater Craft Alchemy (+1/level)
5. Mettle
5. Poison Resistance = Con bonus
5. Poison Use (move action)
5. Persistent Poison (2 consecutive saves to resist)
5. Double Dose (2 physical ability damage or 2 mental ability damage)
8. Two Elixirs
8. Advanced Potion Brewing
8. Create Homonoculus
8. Combine 2 Bombs
8. Empower Poison (x1.5 poison damage)
8. Transmute Poison (ability damage changed to ability drain)
8. Mixed Dose (1 physical and 1 mental ability damage)
8. Two Poison Effects
11. Poison Immunity
11. Steadfast Fortitude (re-roll failed Fort save)
11. Poison Use (swift action)
11. Maximize Poison (maximum ability damage)
11. Triple Dose (3 physical or 3 mental ability damage)
14. Three Elixirs
14. Combine 3 Bombs
14. Overwhelming Poison (overcomes poison immunity)
14. Double Mixed (2 physical and 2 mental ability damage)
14. Three Poison Effects
17. Eternal Youth
17. Poison Use (immediate action)
17. Panvenom (all 6 ability damage)
20. Four Elixirs
20. Philosopher's Stone
20. Combine 4 Bombs
20. Fast Healing 5
20. +2 Intelligence
20. Venomous Touch
20. Intensify Poison (double maximum ability damage)
20, 4 Poison Effects
Doses (Ex). By spending 1 hour mixing bizarre chemicals together, the alchemist can create doses of alchemical potential that make it easier for him to use his various alchemical abilities. Each day, he can make a number of doses equal to his class level + his Intelligence bonus.
Ummm.....
I like it.
Though i would still use evolution points for elixirs.
I like how formulae are actually a little different from spells.
Ummm.....
I like it.
Though i would still use evolution points for elixirs.
I like how formulae are actually a little different from spells.
Thanks. I also like the Evolution Points for the elixirs, but I haven't really examined the eidolon and summoner rules too closely, so I'm not too sure about balance and how many points to give out, etc.
But it would be nice if 2 of the new classes used the same mechanic for their "customized melee" features.
I was suspicious at first Smilo, if only because it was such an extensive revamp, but nice. I really, really like it. Well done.
I kind of doubt we'll see it in the final version - sadly - but still, very cool.
Thanks. One of my favorite things about this alchemist build is that you can make different kinds of alchemists (Mad Bombers, Dr. Jekylls & Mr. Hydes, Insane Apothecaries and Assassins, Elementalists, etc.). Alchemists are like the MacGuyvers of Pathfinder.
I chose 7 levels for the primary field of study because 7 is generally an important number in alchemy (7 celestial bodies, 7 metals, etc.). There are also 4 fields of study because there are traditionally 4 elements, humors, etc., that are also important to alchemy.
I chose d10s for the bomb damage because I figure many, if not most, gamers would have lots of d10s from other gaming systems.
Oh yeah! I want to add a higher-level Discovery built on the Create Homonoculus that allows the alchemist to make golems. There should also be language added that demonstrates the alchemist can use Craft Alchemy to Brew Potions, kind of how the 3.5 warlock has Imbue Item so they can make magic items by simulating spellcasting abilities. It might also be neat to add a Skill Mastery discovery so higher level alchemists can take 10 on Craft Alchemy, Use Magic Device, etc. etc., checks.
Ditto to Tim4488's comment; you've just got so much going on, its a bit intimidating to approach at first. Reading more deliberately, it seems awfully cool (maybe too powerful? Hard to say, it'd take some test builds to know for sure).
That said, the hurdle of initial comprehension is... pretty staggering. Definitely more than I'd expect them to present as a new core class, even in a book specifically named 'advanced'. You've got enough material in there for two pretty sophisticated core classes, or maybe four simple ones.
Me, I like a bit of complexity, so I applaud the effort, but the wider audience is probably going to avoid it, once you've actually expanded all those power and upgrade lists to include complete rules text.
If there was some way you could condense each branch down to two sorcerer bloodline's worth of text and progression, that'd be a different matter, but choosing each advancement from a chart means this class actually has more leveling decisions to make than any three other classes combined.
Yeah, it is a little complex. But I think that was necessary if you wanted to create an alchemist class that could specialize in one of four fields (bombs, elixirs/mutagens, formulas/spells, poison).
Basically, at 1st level, you choose a major field of study (Exalted Alchemy in bombs, elixirs, formulas, or poisons), and choose 2 first level powers from that field. You also then rank the other three fields you want to dabble in (Greater, Lesser, and Base), and choose 1 first level power for each. You also choose a single first level Discovery.
At 2nd level, and every level thereafter, you choose 1 additional power for your Exalted Alchemy and 1 additional power for ONE of your minor fields of study (Greater, Lesser, OR Base).
The power level increases of the different fields of study are staggered (+1 per 3, +1 per 4, +1 per 5, and +1 per 6).
You also get to choose new discoveries at 2nd level and every 3 levels thereafter.
I think there are enough discoveries that an Extra Discovery feat would be warranted, but not over-powered.
Since I made one about the Inquisitor it seems fitting that there should be one for the alchemist as well.
1) An ability somewhere early that allows him to ready his bombs as a swift action. Using up a full-round action every time you want to throw a bomb does not sound fun.
2) Mutagen scaling with levels to some degree. This has been covered pretty well in another thread.
3) The Infusion discovery a core part of the class.
4) Some way to combine Bomb effects. Possibly a high level discovery.
5) A bomb that dispels magic would be pretty sweet.
And that's it. I really like the Alchemist and just think he needs some minor adjustments.
The class as it is written is beyond saving. Its just another spellscaster with the same old spells, it's just that you have to do a little something different to "cast" them. This doesn't really bring anything new to the table, I was truly hoping for a different class all together.
The class as it is written is beyond saving. Its just another spellscaster with the same old spells, it's just that you have to do a little something different to "cast" them. This doesn't really bring anything new to the table, I was truly hoping for a different class all together.Since I made one about the Inquisitor it seems fitting that there should be one for the alchemist as well.
1) An ability somewhere early that allows him to ready his bombs as a swift action. Using up a full-round action every time you want to throw a bomb does not sound fun.
2) Mutagen scaling with levels to some degree. This has been covered pretty well in another thread.
3) The Infusion discovery a core part of the class.
4) Some way to combine Bomb effects. Possibly a high level discovery.
5) A bomb that dispels magic would be pretty sweet.
And that's it. I really like the Alchemist and just think he needs some minor adjustments.
The class as written seems to be a wannabe replacement for the rogue, and possibly the warlock. It has trapfinding, a special attack with scaling damage, some skills, and a few neat tricks and defensive abilities. But the tacked on spell list is really lame.
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The Alchemist needs the ability to make poisons at a faster rate than the Craft rules currently allow, even if it takes a Discovery to do so.
More than any other class as written, the Alchemist seems to me to be the one most likely to make it themselves. Whether envisioned as the labrat taking precise measurements and boiling away impurities for days, or MacGyver finding the right moss and mushrooms and adding their own urea to make something on demand, poison creation is completely inline with the concept.
I will admit however, that making a bomb with a contact poison in it would be rather nasty.
Sadly, I won't be able to contribute much to the playtest, as I'm only starting a game this week, and allowing one of the players to be an Alchemist. Right off though, I'm allowing Mutagens to grant Alchemical bonuses. I would think that's just an oversight.
Not sure if it's been said but need to fix the range on throwing vials/bombs. Just not realistic at all.
Because the rest of the game, where rangers fire four arrows at once, barbarians cleave groups of goblins dead with a single swing, and people cast spells, is entirely realistic.
Always possible to make a hand held "mortar\grenade thrower".
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Not to glom on twowolves but his points bear repeating.(with minor comments from YHS)
My suggestions mirror many here, so forgive me if I restate some in my own list:
A) Infusion is a class ability gained at Level 1
Wholehearted agrement
B) Discoveries every 3 levels
I would concur with others that this should be every 2 lev.
C) BREW POTION
yes and free @1st lev
D) Mutagens need to grant an alchemical bonus, not enhancement
DUH! why make them in the first place
E) Bomb mixing might need to be eventually sped up to swift actions
no comment needed (oops)
F) More Discoveries such as
F1) Concentrate poison: combine 2 doses into 1 to increase the save DC by +4
F2) Distill Extract/Potion: using time and/or money, precombine 2 extracts/potions (but not 1 of each) into 1 dose
these two sound AWESOME!
F3) Potion Breakthrough: The highest level spell you can make into a potion is increased by +1, you can take this multiple times (4th lvl potions, 5th lvl potions, etc).
only if the level of AL is @ least 2x new spell level.(maybe 3x)
F4) Recombination: Combine a Mutagen with an Extract, drink 1 vial of Recombined Mutagen/Extract and have both take effect in 1 action.
this might be too much
G1) Alchemical Lab Notebook: like a spellbook, allow alchemists to add new formulae to their book. If the class has such a limited "spell" selection, let them add to their book. I wouldn't mind if that meant the "spontaneous" aspect of their "casting" went away too. Have a notebook full of formulae, spend 1 minute each (or 1 minute per spell level) mixing it up, tote them around all day.
OR G2) Greatly expand the list of possible formulae (or let them brew potions of any spell, not just alchemist spells).
If this is a "scientific wizard" then why wouldn't he write EVERYTHING down. (" This particular formulae effective against trolls")Just a few random thoughts. I think these would make the class a LOT more party friendly/playable.
Not to glom on twowolves but his points bear repeating.(with minor comments from YHS)
My suggestions mirror many here, so forgive me if I restate some in my own list:
A) Infusion is a class ability gained at Level 1
Wholehearted agrement
B) Discoveries every 3 levels
I would concur with others that this should be every 2 lev.
C) BREW POTION
yes and free @1st lev
D) Mutagens need to grant an alchemical bonus, not enhancement
DUH! why make them in the first place
E) Bomb mixing might need to be eventually sped up to swift actions
no comment needed (oops)
F) More Discoveries such as
F1) Concentrate poison: combine 2 doses into 1 to increase the save DC by +4
F2) Distill Extract/Potion: using time and/or money, precombine 2 extracts/potions (but not 1 of each) into 1 dose
these two sound AWESOME!
F3) Potion Breakthrough: The highest level spell you can make into a potion is increased by +1, you can take this multiple times (4th lvl potions, 5th lvl potions, etc).
only if the level of AL is @ least 2x new spell level.(maybe 3x)
F4) Recombination: Combine a Mutagen with an Extract, drink 1 vial of Recombined Mutagen/Extract and have both take effect in 1 action.
this might be too much
G1) Alchemical Lab Notebook: like a spellbook, allow alchemists to add new formulae to their book. If the class has such a limited "spell" selection, let them add to their book. I wouldn't mind if that meant the "spontaneous" aspect of their "casting" went away too. Have a notebook full of formulae, spend 1 minute each (or 1 minute per spell level) mixing it up, tote them around all day.
OR G2) Greatly expand the list of possible formulae (or let them brew potions of any spell, not just alchemist spells).
If this is a "scientific wizard" then why wouldn't he write EVERYTHING down. (" This particular formulae effective against trolls")Just a few random thoughts. I think these would make the class a LOT more party friendly/playable.
+1 to everything
I also hope there is a feat called Extra Discovery (or Eureka!), that allows an alchemist to gain an additional discovery.
I think the whole bombs thing should be re-done so that the extra damage from them (and/or special effects) represent the alchemist's specialization and special knowledge in using them, not bits of supernatural power infusing them. So alchemists would use regular vials of acid or alchemist's fire, but add their Int bonus to the damage (and splash damage), and beginning at 3rd level, gain extra d6s of damage. Maybe they would spend an hour each day preparing alchemical items, possibly totally a number of items equal to 1/2 their class level + their Int bonus. That way, it would just take a move action to take out an alchemical item, and a standard action to throw it. There could even be a new feat similar to Quick Draw (and possibly having it as a requirement) that lets the alchemist pull out an alchemical item as a free action. It might even be a cool bonus feat for the alchemist.
They should have a small list of bonus feats to select from, including Brew Potion, Master Craftsman, Throw Anything, Quick Draw, Extra Discovery, Quick Draw Item, Shape Splash.
Shape Splash should be a feat that changes the splash effect of splash weapons from a 5 foot radius to a 15 foot cone, with the full damage occuring at the apex of the cone.
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My opinion is pretty simple :
I also hope there is a feat called Extra Discovery (or Eureka!), that allows an alchemist to gain an additional discovery.
+1.
- Infusion at Lvl. 1 ! (Maybe with a limitation, for exemple using 2 extracts in one, or a risk of getting sick on doses usable by non-alchemist character?)
- Brew Potion.
- Mutagens are awesome but totally, absolutely need to give an alchemical bonus, not a magical enhancement. And if it doesn't, which would be stupid, I don't care - it will be the rules on my table. It reminds me the crazy drug seller in Battle Angel : Alita, or Gerald in The Witcher.
- Discoveries sooner and at a better rate, maybe one at Lvl 1 and each impair level after. Each 2 or 3 levels would do it, depending the bonus granted (a discovery that allows to do ice damages, and another one two levels after to do acid damages is way worst than a discovery got after 3 levels which allows to simply chose between fire/acid/ice/etc.).
- More versatility in bombs : create them with a swift action (maybe with a discovery ?), to be able to change the damage type, mix them with poison, do no damage, blind, make a cone at splash...
- Also, some others things like melt two poisons in one, concentrate them, etc.
I don't think a lot of modifications are necessary. Just more choices, more logic and more abilities.
The Alchemist should be able to focalize on melee, using Mutagens that boost it's physical abilities and give him natural attacks - really fun to enhance with poison. On the other side, it should remain able to throw useful/powerful bombs and enhance them, getting really good variations that a melee-specialized alchemist couldn't afford.
In other words : the Alchemist should allow the player to be fight-proof, to have useful bombs and to use deadly poisons, then to focus particularly on one or two of these capacities if he wants to. Mutagens + Poison, Poison + Bombs, Bombs only, Mutagens + Bombs... or all at once, depending on each character and player.
Alchemist : a guy you better have to handle with prudence. Can rip off your skin with claws, set you on fire, create drugs and kill you with more substances you can imagine, depending how he choose to evolve on it's art.
And that's why the concept rocks, it's fun, cool and versatile, depending on the player's taste ! :D
(Also, I'm just a french, please excuse any english mistake I could have done on this text.)
+1
I agree that the alchemist should be able to specialize in a single field of study and dabble in the other fields of study. Some alchemists focus on mutagens and are melee titans; others specialize on bombs and are ranged and AoE blasters. Some alchemists focus on using alchemical formulas to transmutate the elements and other mundane objects; others are subtle assassins or apothecaries that rely on their poison crafting skills.
There should also be room for a variety of discoveries that add lots of different flavors to the alchemist: Brewing Potions, Crafting Magic Items, Homonculi, Poison Resistance, Trapfinding, Mettle, Surgery, Cloning, etc. etc.
That's why I re-vamped the class in my version of the alchemist. The alchemist has access to 4 fields of study: Bombs, Formulas, Mutagens, and Poisons. He chooses one as his Major Field of Study (Exalted Field of Study, and the three remaining are his Minor Fields of Study (Greater, Lesser, and Base).
The Major Field of Study goes up to the Exalted level of 7 on the power rating scale, and the alchemist learns a power from it every level, including 2 powers from it at first level.
The Minor Fields of Study goes up to the Greater level of 6, Lesser level of 5, and Base level of 4 on the power rating skill. The alchemist learns one 1st level power from each at first level. At 2nd level, and every level thereafter, the alchemist learns an additional power from one of his Minor Fields of Study, and after 2nd level, he cannot choose to learn a power from the same Minor Field of Study 2 levels in a row.
I also gave the alchemist a discovery at 1st level, 2nd level, and every 3 levels beyond 2nd (5, 8, 11, 14, 17, and 20), with a list of different powered discoveries to choose from; the alchemist is free to choose a lower level discovery in place of a higher level discovery. Some discoveries augment a Field of Study, others grant unusual and flavorful class abilities.
This also opens up the class to 4 or 5 different prestige class ideas: Mad Bomber, Mutagenic Freak, Transmogrifying Elementalist, Apothecary Assassin, and maybe Mad Scientist.
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I just had the best idea ever.
I suggest to add this capacity for the Alchemist : Suicide Bomb.
The character could concentrate all it's remaining bombs into one. For exemple, today, a Lvl 7 Alchemist with an Intelligence of 22 can throw everyday 13 bombs that inflict 4d6 + 6 damages.
This character could be able to melt into one huge explosive all the bombs he can still throw. With this exemple, if the Lvl 7 character used 0 bombs before doing a suicide, he could do a 13*4 = 52d6 massive bomb, with the condition to have it in hands when it explodes and suffer himself the maximum ammount of damages, not being able to throw it without losing it's power.
Eventually, the Alchemist could be able to do a melee touch attack to inflict directly 1/2 of maximum damages to one target as well, exposing himself to attacks of opportunity when charging the bomb or attacking.
The splash damages would be calculated like a normal bomb. With this exemple, it would be 58. The radius may be of 5 Feet/10d6, for exemple - and any discovery about bombs could be applied to the explosion, allowing an Alchemist to end it's life as a ice statue or a strange liquid instead of simple carbon. Nuclear mushroom is in option.
If the Alchemist survives the explosion by miracle or because the bomb wasn't SO powerful (too many used in the day before the big one?), he must take -1d6 to all it's ability scores and could not use any of it's capacities before being totally healed. A burnt steak as hand isn't really good for doing potions.
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(P.S : Obviously, this could be a class feature or bonus part of a discovery that allows to inflict more damages with bombs, like the "Explosive Bombs" one. A melee adept or chemist should probably not be skilled enough to create a final Big Bertha. And by "maximum damages" that takes the Alchemist when charging a Final Bomb, it still needs to throw the dices, not literally take the maximum amount of damages as if all the dices felt on a 6. Same thing for the share-my-death attack, throw dices then divide per 2 - considering the alchemist is still conscious after the attack of opportunity, in which case the bomb becomes inert...)
By the way, I saw a lot of comments about the mutagen, being "too weak" and needing to "evolve with the class". I'm not fine with this. It just needs to provide an alchemical bonus, and to be upgradable faster but WITH discoveries, not by the holy spirit. Much faster. The mutagen discoveries, excepting the feral mutagen are way too long to get and too weak at these levels. :(
If you find a way to improve them by focusing only on the mutagens, ok ; but it's already pretty powerful, giving multiple, personnalized and high bonuses, and even natural armor. The extracts, on the other hand, allow to increase in size, to faster and even to get into rage, so I don't think this is necessary to make them better... eventually, increase slightly their effect/duration or lower their misadvantages at high levels, or allow via discoveries to mix a mutagen with an extract ?
And the feral mutagen is just incredible. Add an amulet of the mighty fists, and you get the picture : a guy looking a bit defenseless which can in fact take names with (elemental) poisonous claws and bites. *o*
Like said by a lot of people, maybe the 1d4 Cha damages is too much, and should instead lower Intelligence as well... like -1 Cha and -2 Int damage, malus doubled if the Alchemist fails to do a Fortitude test when drinking the mutagen. A basic mutagen could have a DD 12, a greater mutagen a DD 18, a grand mutagen a DD 24. It opens path to a discovery that would increase risks against more power, or just reduce the DD... there is so much you can do, I just hope you'll make it equilibrate and opened to all tastes and combinations, avoiding semi-useless discoveries !
We're with you ! \o/ (I am. Alchemists rocks. By the way, the numbers/ideas I gave are just examples, it's the idea that counts. ;p)
I personally think there should be more mutagens with more flavor. I also think that when a mutagen is taken, the alchemist should have to make a Fortitude save; if successful, fine; if it's failed, the alchemist should suffer a penalty specific to that mutagen; if the alchemist gets a natural 20, he should get some kind of capstone benefit from the mutagen.
I also think there should be a way to expunge or purge the mutagen in some kind of spectacular way.
For example....
Elixir of flame (3rd level). This elixir grants fire resistance 15; adds +1d6 fire damage to the alchemist's melee weapon, natural, and unarmed attacks; and causes 1d6 points of fire damage to any opponent that strikes the alchemist with a non-reach weapon. DC 20 Fortitude Save; fail: gain cold vulnerability; nat20: gain fire resistance 30; Purge: 25 foot cone of fire for 6d6 points of damage, Reflex for half.
Well, playing with a group, and have an alchemist. How about the idea of a feat that an alchemist can effectively concentrate his alchemical creations, and make the potions more of a move-equivilant action. Since it's his entire class to make and drink potions, it'd make a little sensse that eventually he'd be able to drink them faster... At least I think so
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In fact, I have to admit that the more I think about it, the more I find that Infusion should not be offered to the Alchemist, or with a strict limitation that could trieve a solution with discoveries.
If the Alchemist gains Brew potion at 1st level and a bonus to the skill, the extracts should remain an exclusivity for the class to self-buff itself. Maybe the Alchemist could be able to prepare 1 extract per extract level he can create, admitting a Lvl 10 Alchemist to do each day :
5 lvl.1 extracts for itself, or 4 for itself + 1 for someone else.
4 lvl.2 extracts for itself, or 3 for itself + 1 for someone else.
3 lvl.3 extracts for itself, or 2 for itself + 1 for someone else.
1 lvl.4 extract for itself, or 1 for someone else.
This could be changed with discoveries, improving Infusion to a total liberty during preparation at the risk to lower the effects of extracts.
Concerning the Mutagen enhancements suggered by SmiloDan, I believe this is a good idea, but should be added as new extracts the Alchemist can prepare, not on the mutagen itself. The Elixir of flame is f*~!ing awesome, but is really powerful - maybe too much... like I said, add an Amulet of the Mighty Fists (Thunder), and you get a guy which can do like 8d6 + 1d8 + 15 with a full-round natural weapons attack at lvl 7.
The class should be able to use everywhere but focalize on some abilities. So, sharing extracts is something any Alchemist should be able to do with limitations - excepting if he suddenly discovers how to share more extracts, and choses to do so. :)
I still think that the elixirs or mutagens or whatever should be more like the vestiges from Tome of Magic. A little bit flavorful, with a suite of special abilities that are tied together by a common theme. There should also be a check to see if there is a negative consequence for using a mutagen, but also a slight chance of getting a bigger benefit.
I remember being really disappointed when the alchemist was so focused on bombs and poisons, with mutagens just a little added something, and no real emphasis on dealing with classical elements or transmuting materials from one thing to another.
The alchemist as written seems like a replacement for the rogue. It has scaling, specialized damage (sneak attack vs. bombs), skill monkey-ness, trapfinding, and resistance or immunity to special attacks (evasion vs. poison immunity).
I still think that the elixirs or mutagens or whatever should be more like the vestiges from Tome of Magic. A little bit flavorful, with a suite of special abilities that are tied together by a common theme. There should also be a check to see if there is a negative consequence for using a mutagen, but also a slight chance of getting a bigger benefit.
I remember being really disappointed when the alchemist was so focused on bombs and poisons, with mutagens just a little added something, and no real emphasis on dealing with classical elements or transmuting materials from one thing to another.
The alchemist as written seems like a replacement for the rogue. It has scaling, specialized damage (sneak attack vs. bombs), skill monkey-ness, trapfinding, and resistance or immunity to special attacks (evasion vs. poison immunity).
Yeah, more mutagen stuff would definitely rock. Maybe some "bad" mutagens that work as debuffs as well, like you throw them on a monster and it starts to shrivel.
What do you mean by "evasion vs. poison immunity"
A) Infusion is a class ability gained at Level 1
Wholehearted agrement
B) Discoveries every 3 levels
I would concur with others that this should be every 2 lev.
C) BREW POTION
yes and free @1st lev
D) Mutagens need to grant an alchemical bonus, not enhancement
DUH! why make them in the first place
E) Bomb mixing might need to be eventually sped up to swift actions
no comment needed (oops)
F) More Discoveries such as
F1) Concentrate poison: combine 2 doses into 1 to increase the save DC by +4
F2) Distill Extract/Potion: using time and/or money, precombine 2 extracts/potions (but not 1 of each) into 1 dose
these two sound AWESOME!
F3) Potion Breakthrough: The highest level spell you can make into a potion is increased by +1, you can take this multiple times (4th lvl potions, 5th lvl potions, etc).
only if the level of AL is @ least 2x new spell level.(maybe 3x)
F4) Recombination: Combine a Mutagen with an Extract, drink 1 vial of Recombined Mutagen/Extract and have both take effect in 1 action.
this might be too much
+1 to all of this, maybe have the alchemist gain a lot of spells on level up (like 8), and then one or two random ones from the DM to symbolize the weird crap you learned.
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Not sure if it's been said but need to fix the range on throwing vials/bombs. Just not realistic at all.Because the rest of the game, where rangers fire four arrows at once, barbarians cleave groups of goblins dead with a single swing, and people cast spells, is entirely realistic.
Tell ya what. If you wish to complain do some research first and come back to me when you have a logical conclusion about what can and can't be done. And no **** Shurlock about spells. Look at professional shooters for their skills with guns and bows. And why don't you test how much force a real weight lifter can hit with.
I hate idiots. I wish I could add something constructive to the thread but I see everyone else here has covered their ideas quite well. So if this post gets deleted no hard feelings paizo. Just had to respond.