Bombs away!

[Enchanter Tom]

Right now, I feel that the bombs that the alchemist can make are pretty weak. 10d6 + Int mod damage at level 20 is not spectacular, as was discovered when WotC released the warlock. It seems really good, but it's not.

Here are the current problems with the bombs:

1. It takes a full-round action to use them (move to mix, standard to throw). Even the warlock can use his eldritch blast as a standard action.

2. Bombs are limited per day. The warlock could blast all day; why not the alchemist?

3. Fire damage is very easy to resist. Fire resist 30 is available from a 2nd-level spell. Again, the warlock didn't do energy damage and that class is a little on the weak side.

Suggestions on how to fix this:

1. Alchemists can mix and throw bombs as a single standard action.
2. Alchemists can use their bombs at-will.
3. Bombs should do force damage instead of fire damage.

[Kain Darkwind]

Enchanter Tom wrote:

Right now, I feel that the bombs that the alchemist can make are pretty weak. 10d6 + Int mod damage at level 20 is not spectacular, as was discovered when WotC released the warlock. It seems really good, but it's not.

Here are the current problems with the bombs:

1. It takes a full-round action to use them (move to mix, standard to throw). Even the warlock can use his eldritch blast as a standard action.

2. Bombs are limited per day. The warlock could blast all day; why not the alchemist?

3. Fire damage is very easy to resist. Fire resist 30 is available from a 2nd-level spell. Again, the warlock didn't do energy damage and that class is a little on the weak side.

Suggestions on how to fix this:

1. Alchemists can mix and throw bombs as a single standard action.
2. Alchemists can use their bombs at-will.
3. Bombs should do force damage instead of fire damage.

You are realizing that the alchemist can take abilities to change up the damage of its blast? I'm not disagreeing with your premise (point 2 was my very first thought upon seeing the class), merely ensuring you've got the full picture.

Just tossing my soldier expertise in here, real grenades kill through shrapnel, not a heat explosion. Maybe it should be magic piercing damage? Then allow the abilities to change it to energy types, such as fire, force and cold.

[Nerioth]

Ehh, there's a few things you can do with blast for warlocks, but remember that classes got changed up and warlocks haven't been introduced in pathfinder for a core class yet.

For Bombs themselves...well I have to say that they barely fit the description for a bomb, considering it does a five foot square of damage with splash damage a for five feet from that. Most bombs when you make them explode harder have a bigger range, since the blast is greater in intensity and expands it even further.

I think that as an alchemist gains levels, he should learn to manipulate and arm the bombs faster, so it would go from a move to a swift. Considering that bombs are also his main means of damage, that perhaps he be given more, but he can only have a certain amount prepared at a time. IE he would prepare 5-10 of them before combat and arm them in combat to throw. As far as damage goes, the bombs remind me more of a napalm effect, since it doesn't even cause an explosion unless you take a discovery, it's the liquid that does the damage.

Another point is that in adverse wind conditions, a alchemist can't really use his bombs because they might be blown into some area he might not like.

[DCironlich]

Would be fun if the Alchemist could make missiles too (i.e. bombs with greater than thrown distance). Seems like the Alchemist should be able to make a Pyrotechnics effect too.

[Dru Lee Parsec]

The alchemist can produce bombs equal to his level + his int modifier (so let's assume 3 or 4 per day at 1st level. Let's say 4) But they "remain usable for years". So during a down time of say, a week long rest in a tavern an alchemist can produce 4 x 7 = 28 bombs which will last for years.

Rest for a month and the guy is a walking nitro bomb.

So the bombs can become 1d6 range attacks that the alchemist can throw them all day long.

That seems pretty powerful.

[Draeke Raefel]

Dru Lee Parsec wrote:

The alchemist can produce bombs equal to his level + his int modifier (so let's assume 3 or 4 per day. Let's say 4) But they "remain usable for years". So during a down time of say, a week long rest in a tavern an alchemist can produce 4 x 7 = 28 bombs which will last for years.

Rest for a month and the guy is a walking nitro bomb.

So the bombs can become 1d6 range attacks that the alchemist can throw them all day long.

That seems pretty powerful.

Incorrect. He can make the "catalyst vials" that last for years. However, he can only every use a number of bombs per day equal to his lvl + int modifier no matter how many catalyst vials he has. The theory behind it is because he has to imbue the components with magic from his aura as he mixes the catalysts to create the bomb.

[Dru Lee Parsec]

Ah, I see my mistake.

Also, the idea of drinking the potion and then casting the "bomb" like a spell clears up a lot of problems as opposed to making an actual bomb and throwing it (why not throw 2 vials, etc.)

[ghanigan]

Enchanter Tom wrote:

1. It takes a full-round action to use them (move to mix, standard to throw). Even the warlock can use his eldritch blast as a standard action.

2. Bombs are limited per day. The warlock could blast all day; why not the alchemist?

3. Fire damage is very easy to resist. Fire resist 30 is available from a 2nd-level spell. Again, the warlock didn't do energy damage and that class is a little on the weak side.

I would add that the bombs have such a limited range, presuming they're like other thrown weapons - 5 x range increment and take such massive penalties at that outer range (10' range increment for alchemist fire = -8 penalty to thown bombs out to 50')

So 5th level elf Mr. Alchemist standing next to 5th level elf Mr. Wizard decide they want to kill the Kobolds 50 feet away. Mr. Wizard drops a fireball on them and all within 20' must make a save of DC 17 (+4 int, +3 spell) or take 5d6 points of damage. Mr. Alchemist mixes a bomb and thows it with a bonus to hit of +7 (+4 dex, +3 BAB) at one of the kobolds and must hit an equivalent touch AC of 20 (AC 10, +1 size, +1 dex, +8 range increment) in order to do 3d6+3.

Mr. Wizard smiles knowing he made a better career choice as he thows a few magic missiles at the kobold boss standing 200 feet away the following round, while the Mr. Alchemist runs clinking all the way in order to close the gap with the big boss man.

[Kolokotroni]

I have a strong distaste for at will alchemist abilities. As much as It may or may not help balance, it just doesnt make any sense. How much alchemical material can the alchemist actually carry? There is a limitation of an actual physical item being neccessary for the ability. It doesnt make any sense at all for it being at will.

[Mr.Fishy]

Spell components.

[Draeke Raefel]

Kolokotroni wrote:

I have a strong distaste for at will alchemist abilities. As much as It may or may not help balance, it just doesnt make any sense. How much alchemical material can the alchemist actually carry? There is a limitation of an actual physical item being neccessary for the ability. It doesnt make any sense at all for it being at will.

Lol... Why bring that up about alchemists and not about wizards? Most of the spells I have seen in Core require some form of material component. How many spiders legs or lbs of colored sand should your wizard be carrying? It is designed to add flavor and possibly hinder you should you lose your gear, not become a logistical/book-keeping nightmare.

[Kolokotroni]

Draeke Raefel wrote:

Kolokotroni wrote:

I have a strong distaste for at will alchemist abilities. As much as It may or may not help balance, it just doesnt make any sense. How much alchemical material can the alchemist actually carry? There is a limitation of an actual physical item being neccessary for the ability. It doesnt make any sense at all for it being at will.

Lol... Why bring that up about alchemists and not about wizards? Most of the spells I have seen in Core require some form of material component. How many spiders legs or lbs of colored sand should your wizard be carrying? It is designed to add flavor and possibly hinder you should you lose your gear, not become a logistical/book-keeping nightmare.

For some components it does present a problem, but many if not most of them are rather small inconcequential items, and all but a very few are not at will abilities. And not all them require material components (especially in the cantrip range). An alchemist has to, at least in my mind, mix together a series of far more physically substantial componsents and have some kind of container for every spell he casts (be it infusion, bomb or mutegen). There has to be some kind of limit on this. I am far more willing to accept a near infinate supply of spider legs and sand that I am a near infinate supply of glass vials. It just throws suspension of disbalief out the window.

[Draeke Raefel]

Kolokotroni wrote:

Draeke Raefel wrote:

Kolokotroni wrote:

I have a strong distaste for at will alchemist abilities. As much as It may or may not help balance, it just doesnt make any sense. How much alchemical material can the alchemist actually carry? There is a limitation of an actual physical item being neccessary for the ability. It doesnt make any sense at all for it being at will.

Lol... Why bring that up about alchemists and not about wizards? Most of the spells I have seen in Core require some form of material component. How many spiders legs or lbs of colored sand should your wizard be carrying? It is designed to add flavor and possibly hinder you should you lose your gear, not become a logistical/book-keeping nightmare.

For some components it does present a problem, but many if not most of them are rather small inconcequential items, and all but a very few are not at will abilities. And not all them require material components (especially in the cantrip range). An alchemist has to, at least in my mind, mix together a series of far more physically substantial componsents and have some kind of container for every spell he casts (be it infusion, bomb or mutegen). There has to be some kind of limit on this. I am far more willing to accept a near infinate supply of spider legs and sand that I am a near infinate supply of glass vials. It just throws suspension of disbalief out the window.

Leaving bombs aside for the moment, I am sure he can re-use all the glass vials from his Extracts. As for the bombs... I think it was done so that you wouldn't have to keep track and be penalized for using a class ability.