I've wanted there to be an alchemist class forever, but was a bit disappointed by this one.
Elsewhere it was said an alchemist is supposed to be a selfish caster. However, a selfishly casting cleric can out buff and out melee the alchemist easily. I think that too much focus has been put on the bombs and not enough on the spell casting, similar to the summoner's elodion.
It seems to me that the closed 3.5 parallel to the alchemist is the warlock. Ranged damage ability that scales with level that gets added effects, lower power spell like abilities, decent combat, minor supernatural buffs, etc. However, the warlock casts those low power spells at will, and the alchemist gets a really horrible spell progression. If limited to 6 levels of spells, I would think that the alchemist should get a boost to spells / day. Also, the discovery ability is cool, but it crops up so rarely that it doesn't seem to allow much customization. A level 1 minor discovery would make it a bit more interesting.
In terms of buffing others, its a big loss in terms of spells / day anyway for the alchemist, so why make them lose a vital discovery (that I at least would consider a default discovery)... it should be automatic. Think about cleric, they can choose to buff others or turn themselves into an unstoppable tank... they have same BAB, hp, better armor, much more frequent and powerful spells, and actual offensive spells at the cost of no bombs.
I would have to play test it, but based on a lot of 3.5 experience and some side by side comparisons; I'd seriously up the spells / day, maybe expand the spell list, and make infusion automatic in my campaign. Also, I'd consider certain offensive spells to be added to the spell list, that could be thrown instead of imbibed.
Agreed, or add on some kind of ability to transmute objects/others, maybe even with the bombs. Alchemists were all about transforming materials and because of the "self only" nature of extracts all the other transmutation kinds of spells are gone - shatter, flesh to stone, stone to mud, etc. would be cool addons.
Thinking about it, I'd also add a bonus to the DC of normal alchemical items (i.e. alchemists fire and the like) based on class level. Like maybe 1/2? Minor bonus, but makes sense flavor-wise in my opinion.
Thinking about it, I'd also add a bonus to the DC of normal alchemical items (i.e. alchemists fire and the like) based on class level. Like maybe 1/2? Minor bonus, but makes sense flavor-wise in my opinion.
Well they already get a bonus on the damage done by alchemical items (like alchemist fire and acid, both of which don't have save throws), however a few other abilities to use with these items would be nice.
I'm guessing that with their speedy creation of alchemical items (acid, alchemist's fire) and the damage bonus they get when using them, a LOT of their offense won't be from bombs but from these "mundane" items.
They'll have 20+ bombs per day at 20th level (33 if they max INT without taking the awaken Int ability which would give them 34) and those bombs hit like alchemist fire and deal more damage (10d10+13/14 depending on INT) in addition to splash... if you switch out for force it's 10d4, and if you add the madness bomb feature to it it becomes 8d4+13+ 1d4 Wisdom damage (no save throw).
Now if you face a golem in an anti-magic field then yeah these guys are your best buds, but even without that they still have good damage if they have the move action to spend on making the bomb.
Yeah, bombs and mutagens are supernatural, they don't work in an Antimagic Field. Still works against a golem, since they bypass spell resistance entirely.
I'm guessing that with their speedy creation of alchemical items (acid, alchemist's fire) and the damage bonus they get when using them, a LOT of their offense won't be from bombs but from these "mundane" items.
They'll have 20+ bombs per day at 20th level (33 if they max INT without taking the awaken Int ability which would give them 34) and those bombs hit like alchemist fire and deal more damage (10d10+13/14 depending on INT) in addition to splash... if you switch out for force it's 10d4, and if you add the madness bomb feature to it it becomes 8d4+13+ 1d4 Wisdom damage (no save throw).
Now if you face a golem in an anti-magic field then yeah these guys are your best buds, but even without that they still have good damage if they have the move action to spend on making the bomb.
Couple things:
first off it's 10d6+13 dmg for basic bomb at lvl 20, assuming maxed int.
second off, pretty sure that extracts and such will not work in an antimagic field, they're described as magical in nature.
third off, the party figter at 20th level is doing much higher damage per round, with more options than self buff and chuck explosive.
I grabbed the wrong number yeah.
That's my point though, in an antimagic field the alchemist can use mundane alchemy items to deal their extra damage with splash, I could have stated this better.
Of course the fighter is going to deal more damage, however 10d6+13(possibly 14) with a ranged touch attack with no save throw or 8d6+13+1d4 wisdom damage with no save throw isn't anything to scoff at either, especially for a caster type (which the alchemist really isn't). I'm just pointing out the bombs are full of potential for destruction, and other uses too.
Something else with the bombs -- If you take force and madness you could have 8d4+13+1d4 wisdom+ DC(33) or prone effect on one target, with splash damage to whomever is adjacent (possibly a bad thing if the fighter is going toe to toe).
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You're actually considering using alchemical items in high level play?
Oh joy, a 1d6+Int damage ranged touch attack that is completely non-magical in nature. Against something with a couple hundred or so hp.
Well it is a Team Sport, meaning you shouldn't be the only one pounding away at the Monster. And it's against touch AC. There are lots of those big nasties that the Alchemist wouldn't want to try to hit their full AC. Yes pitifully small, but better than nothing.
--Jingle Bell Vrock
You're actually considering using alchemical items in high level play?
Oh joy, a 1d6+Int damage ranged touch attack that is completely non-magical in nature. Against something with a couple hundred or so hp.Well it is a Team Sport, meaning you shouldn't be the only one pounding away at the Monster. And it's against touch AC. There are lots of those big nasties that the Alchemist wouldn't want to try to hit their full AC. Yes pitifully small, but better than nothing.
--Jingle Bell Vrock
"The Alchemist. It's better than nothing!" (tm)
Edit: Well, at least it's a better battle cry than "Not in the face!!!"
My only real problem with Alchemists is that there isn't enough support to make them worth it. There aren't a lot of alchemical items out (that will probably change with the APG), they can't craft potions (better hope you have a caster who can!), and the abilities are entirely selfish and have no use elsewhere.
However, an Alchemist is still okay. As I mentioned in my other thread, Persistent Grand (or True) Mutagen + Eternal Potion + Extracts is gonna make one scary dude. It just...takes forever for them to get up there. And by the time they do, Wizards have ninth level spells. And so do Clerics.
So yeah.
He can give his allies the ability to buff themselves with spells that aren't available for casting on other people.
Yes it requires a discovery, but unlike the wizard they can 'cast' overland flight on the fighter, or shield on the monk.
Of course I consider using alchemy items in high level play... what's a wizard going to do in that situation? The fighter is of course the best in this situation but that doesn't mean there aren't other options too, and this is one.
Beyond that the alchemist is about the best poisoner around too, capable of having poisons last for multiple applications, and using them quickly.
The alchemist isn't a caster - he's more in line with a rogue, or monk than he is with a spell caster.
He also can use wands too without a use magic device check.
The biggest lack I'm seeing on the Alchemist is his discoveries are too few, and he needs trapfinding.
Well, hopefully there are more "high level" Alchemy Items in the APG.
With a +ClassLevel to Craft:Alchemy, they kind of need something to apply themselves to...
As for "high alchemy," I would suggest that Paizo grab a lot of inspiration from Bastion Press' "Alchemy & Herbalism." There's more stuff in that book than an alchemist could make in lifetime, and suitable for making and using at any level.
Not all of it is good, mind you, but it's a GREAT start at something I think many, many people have been craving for a long, long time. I know I have.
Well, hopefully there are more "high level" Alchemy Items in the APG.
With a +ClassLevel to Craft:Alchemy, they kind of need something to apply themselves to...If they add in better alchemical items, ones that are actually effective at high levels, then the class might be somewhat better, but that's mainly since a couple class abilities won't be totally wasted.
The mutagen ability will still suck; the bombs will still be limited to uses/day, worthless at hurting more than one enemy at a time, and great at chipping away at the fighters hp; they still won't be able to be frontline fighters; and they still won't have any utility spells or damaging spells worth noting.It would come down to poison+buffs+alchemy instead of poison+buffs.
I am utterly astounded at your precognitive powers. Please, what are the winning numbers to this week's Florida Lotto?
I'm really hoping the APG has advanced Alchemy rules,
Increase the DC to craft by picking additional upgrades.
-Increased DC
-Burn Duration (increase duration)
-Intensity (increased dmg/splash dmg)
-Increased AoE (both splash areas and "web" area of things like Tanglefoot bags)
-Reduced Weights
-Different delivery method (arrow, dart, gas)
These changes to Alchemy would make Alchemists much more valuable.
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One thing struck me as odd when building my alchemist NPC...why are the bombs forced to be fire elemental? Why not let them choose, and then pay for discoveries later on to add or get additional elements. Now I could see why you wouldn't want sonic or force right from level 1, but what harm could their be in ice/acid/fire bombs right from level 1. Just add a burning effect to fire and all 3 are on par with one another.
One thing struck me as odd when building my alchemist NPC...why are the bombs forced to be fire elemental? Why not let them choose, and then pay for discoveries later on to add or get additional elements. Now I could see why you wouldn't want sonic or force right from level 1, but what harm could their be in ice/acid/fire bombs right from level 1. Just add a burning effect to fire and all 3 are on par with one another.
Aside from any unknown behind-the-scenes reasons, my guess is that a fire-based explosive bomb is intrisically easier to make. In the real world, we've had gunpowder explosives for a long, long time, but refridgeration and cold storage is a fairly recent development.