ugh, 2 more classes with d8 HD and Medium Bab.
WHat is with ALL but the Cavalier having this?
It's the spell progression. Full casters (save the damned cleric) have Low BAB/HD other then the bard, as they all have the bards casting progression D6/BAB be a big nerf, prob cripple a class that does not have 9 levels of spells to fall back on
With the inquisitor your stuck. Full casting he is a cleric ...full bab and half caster he is an alt paladin. He is mid ground. Not a clerics spell progression but better then a paladin and not a paladins HD
I for one am liking more arcane classes without the low BAB/HD
...though I wish teh Inquisitor had the high Bab/ D10
Yeah, I was thinking this over:
The Cleric Domain + better Casting (and rest of abilities) DO sort of put it over the normal Full BAB/d10 baseline,but the Inquisitor really seems PERFECT for a "variant" d10 HD with Medium BAB.
The Campaign Setting Cleric Variant gives up 2 Domains for Full BAB and d10 HD keeping Full Casting, so the Inquisitor with d10/ Medium BAB seems just about right.
|
As for summoners their own flavor text says:
Role: Summoners spend much of their time exploring
the arcane arts, be it while traveling the world or spending
months studying the nature of their eidolons. While
their power comes from within, summoners rely heavily
on their eidolon companions
This suggests to me a more scholarlly person than one who worries about his own combat and health
This suggests to me a more scholarlly person than one who worries about his own combat and health
I think we're in agreement on Summoner HD/BAB too.
Why are people bringing up the Summoner in an official thread titled "Alchemist and Inquisitor Playtest"?
There are other, better places for that.
For the Inquisitor's Judgement, why the change in mechanics from the rounds per day (used for rage & bardic music) back to times per day (what rage / bardic music used to be)?
I really like both of the new classes, and i dont mind that the alchemist has to take a particular discovery to make his potions work for other people, though i really do want to see an ability that lets him use Potions/Oils as Grenades as well. For example, toss a cure moderate wounds at an ally as a ranged touch attack, and it hits them and effects them. Or Bulls Strength or whatever.
Id also like to see the Mutagens, Extracts etc be folded into the primary alchemy ability, sortof like how bardic performance works. If they required a certain number of ranks in alchemy also, that wouldnt hurt.
To me, the current most powerful ability of the class is that bonus to Craft (alchemy) checks, and that bonus to creating them. That will pass fast.
Also, a sidebar dealing with what happens when an alchemists vials of "prepared spells" are destroyed is also needed.
Id like to see the alchemist get brew potion and poison use, at least as possible discoveries.
Also a future supplement, not the core rules, should include a discovery for firearm proficiency and maybe the ability to use craft (alchemy) to craft ammunition for firearms. Not in core though, people would flip out.
Inquisitor
...
- As a hybrid lover in general in RPGs I dig the inquisitor and his options. It is, however, pretty close to a ranger with the bow proficiencies and a bent toward dex/wis stacking.
- The ranger thing again. Sorry my head just keeps going back to it. With track and the like, this class takes the parts of ranger that were not overshadowed by Fighter (archery, TWF), and give them to another class. Poor rangers, always getting the sidelines... ;)
Well, if the ranger gets additional combat styles in the new book (two handed weapons, sword and board, and spear please) then im not as bothered by it covering the same ground. (The bane ability is similar to the favored enemy ability and covers the same territory, also, albeit in a different way.) Additionally, theres an issue of Kobold Quarterly that has a spell-less pathfinder ranger, and im hoping that something similar to this also makes it into the new book.
|
Id like to see the alchemist get brew potion and poison use, at least as possible discoveries.
From the APG playtest: "Poison Use (Ex): Alchemists are trained in the use of poison and starting at 2nd level, cannot accidentally poison themselves when applying poison to a weapon."
Easy to overlook, on a class with so many features.
As I was reading the Alchemist description I was thinking "If he's drinking all these potions every day he should get some kind of iron stomach ability where poison doesn't affect him so much" and there it was, two paragraphs later.
ugh, 2 more classes with d8 HD and Medium Bab.
WHat is with ALL but the Cavalier having this?
The one that does not make sense to have it is the Summoner. I'm not sure with the witch. (never could completely grasp the class, even with reading it.) At least it does make sense with these 2, though I wish teh Inquisitor had the high Bab/ D10
The Witch has poor Bab.
|
to me, the alchemist seems unfocused. You get a bomb ability, a mutagen, and extracts. You have discoveries to make them better, but only 4 by level 16 (not including 20th) which doesn't leave alot of room for improvement. You choice is to either get good at one and have the other two class features suck by that level.
What i would like to see is:
-More discoveries
-make mutagens/bombs apart of those discoveries instead of forcing them
-force only the extracts and poison abilities on the players.
This way, one alchemist looks very different from another. You could have the combat tank alchemist who specializes in mutagens and forgoes bombs altogether. Or you could have a mad bomber who is ranged specialist.
Also, love the idea of a book for keeping formula instead of known. Though statistically, the known is slightly more powerful.
This is all speculation and none of it is actual playtest though. I am glade to say that I will hopefully be able to playtest at my game today! Time to start stating up a 7th level alchemist!
Can I just say the Alchemist Iconic looks wicked cool?
It appears you can.
Can I just say the Alchemist Iconic looks wicked cool?I would prefer a wild-eyed kobold with a bomb...
I'm sure QOshea will be around shortly to fulfill your wish.
I may have just missed it, but what is the range for the bombs?
If that's the case, I would suggest including ways of enhancing the range of thrown splash weapons to make them more back line friendly.
I bet there will be special Feats included in the book that enhance thrown splash weapons like the bombs.
As far as the Inquisitor, cool class. Rename it to something like "Justicar" and you got me. An Inquisitor seems a lot more scholarly...or a Monty Python character. (lol)
I think Inquisitor fits. Here is a divine class mandated by a deity. He does not answer to church authority. He can go into a church and make sure they are following the tenets of the faith without a church official telling him he cannot.
|
|
so far, so good on the alchemist stuff. The inquistor seems okey dokey and all, but a little to similar to the ranger. A little more melee focus would fix that in a jiffy.
I don't know, I love the Inq., but I'me not a huge fan of rangers. It does kind of strike me as odd that the Inq. gets the ranged proficiencies, though. Is it me or this sort of out of nowhere? Maybe all 1 Handed or lighter Martial Weapons, (plus deities favored weapon)would be better?
Have actually play-tested a 8th lvl Drow Alchemist w/ henchmen as a sort of sub-boss, and i have to say it kinda rocks. PCs easily dispatched the weenies supporting him (all the while he is either throwing bombs or stacking his prepped buffs), but when he actually entered the fray all beefed up via extracts and a mutagen (i also hate that term in a fantasy setting), he nearly wiped the party. just disgusting if allowed a couple of rounds to set up.
Some suggestions:
condense the alchemy class feature and add a rank requirement in the alchemy skill.
make the gap between greater mutagen and grand mutagen a little more manageable.
allow for improvement of damage die for bombs, as they can be a bit weak at times.
make the infusion discovery automatic. otherwise, the alchemist is not a team player.
Thank you for releasing this section of the playtest. I have been so engrossed in the Alchemist I haven't even scrolled over to the Inquisitor. I have a question about the Alchemist though, one of its Grand Discoveries. For "Eternal Youth", should I assume that it works like the Monk and Druid where they still die when their maximum age is reached, or should I assume that they could potentially live forever unless struck down by violence or catastrophe?
I apologize for the double post, but I request clarification as to the True Strike spell and the requirements of the Eternal Potion and Extend Potion discoveries. I realize that True Strike does not state a duration time of instantaneous, but I would like to check whether or not this spell as an alchemist's formula can be made permanent due to the Eternal Potion discovery.
RAW, it seems like it can be so. Interpreting the intention of the game, I assume not.
I apologize for the double post, but I request clarification as to the True Strike spell and the requirements of the Eternal Potion and Extend Potion discoveries. I realize that True Strike does not state a duration time of instantaneous, but I would like to check whether or not this spell as an alchemist's formula can be made permanent due to the Eternal Potion discovery.
RAW, it seems like it can be so. Interpreting the intention of the game, I assume not.
It would be permanent until discharged. So instead of the "use it the next round" you would hold it until the next attack... at which time the bonus would go away.
Truthfully the discovery would be best used on something like Good Hope which doesn't get better with levels, but provides a good and steady bonus.
It would be permanent until discharged. So instead of the "use it the next round" you would hold it until the next attack... at which time the bonus would go away.
Truthfully the discovery would be best used on something like Good Hope which doesn't get better with levels, but provides a good and steady bonus.
Ah, of course. That's much better. Trust me, I did not think that a +20 to hit all the time was a great idea, especially with the bombs being ranged touch attacks. I'm certain there are much better effects to be made "eternal". Thank for for the clarification.
Re: Inquisitor
I more or less like it the way it is, except for the weapon proficiencies, which don't seem to fit the way I'd RP an inquisitor. Instead of shortbow/longbow I'd have crossbow/rapier. Easy enough to homebrew in, but that's my 2cp.
Agreed.
I'd say crossbow and short sword. But yeah, I tend to see them as fairly active in cities / towns and the crossbow just seems more appropriate. A bit more "learned" and a bit less "woodsy" if you like.
Re: Inquisitor
I more or less like it the way it is, except for the weapon proficiencies, which don't seem to fit the way I'd RP an inquisitor. Instead of shortbow/longbow I'd have crossbow/rapier. Easy enough to homebrew in, but that's my 2cp.
Agreed.
I'd say crossbow and short sword. But yeah, I tend to see them as fairly active in cities / towns and the crossbow just seems more appropriate. A bit more "learned" and a bit less "woodsy" if you like.
the issue with that concept is that it is backward. The bow was the learned dedicated weapon, the cross bow was simple , easy to learn and effective at drilling armor
Another thing is the crossbow does not scale without feats, now a repeater crossbow I can get, but to me the bow is a much better option then the crossbow for the class
Just to point out, they already have crossbow proficiency, since it's a simple weapon. The short sword and such, however, I definitely agree with.
Just to point out, they already have crossbow proficiency, since it's a simple weapon.Oh, right. *facepalm*
In its stead may I suggest the repeater crossbow like seekerofshadowlight mentioned previously? I like that. I also like the short sword suggestion.
It's that gods awful movie...best thing of the whole movie was the crossbow...I still cry a littl over having watched the whole movie
It's that gods awful movie...best thing of the whole movie was the crossbow...I still cry a littl over having watched the whole movieJust to point out, they already have crossbow proficiency, since it's a simple weapon.Oh, right. *facepalm*
In its stead may I suggest the repeater crossbow like seekerofshadowlight mentioned previously? I like that. I also like the short sword suggestion.
Hahahaha
We mentioned the repeater and hand crossbow in another thread and Jason sounded like he was interested in the idea. Lets hope so, I think they are neat weapons that need to see more game time.
Ultimately they aren't going to use the crossbow often because the crossbow's rate of fire puts crossbow wielders one feat behind archers in every feat tree (taking rapid reload). If the class got rapid reload as a bonus feat instead of longbow proficiency then it would make a huge difference.
I would almost suggest just giving rapid reload rather than the repeater because the repeater has one huge downside. After 5 shots you have to take a full round action to reload. With rapid shot you are cranking out 3 shots per round at 6th level. The repeating crossbow gets one round of 3 shots, one round of 2 then you have to spend a round loading.
|
It's that gods awful movie...best thing of the whole movie was the crossbow...I still cry a littl over having watched the whole movieJust to point out, they already have crossbow proficiency, since it's a simple weapon.Oh, right. *facepalm*
In its stead may I suggest the repeater crossbow like seekerofshadowlight mentioned previously? I like that. I also like the short sword suggestion.
Hahahaha
We mentioned the repeater and hand crossbow in another thread and Jason sounded like he was interested in the idea. Lets hope so, I think they are neat weapons that need to see more game time.
Ultimately they aren't going to use the crossbow often because the crossbow's rate of fire puts crossbow wielders one feat behind archers in every feat tree (taking rapid reload). If the class got rapid reload as a bonus feat instead of longbow proficiency then it would make a huge difference.
I would almost suggest just giving rapid reload rather than the repeater because the repeater has one huge downside. After 5 shots you have to take a full round action to reload. With rapid shot you are cranking out 3 shots per round at 6th level. The repeating crossbow gets one round of 3 shots, one round of 2 then you have to spend a round loading.
And on the inquisitor especially, that 3rd round is not one you want to spend twiddling your thumbs...
I like the uniqueness of the alchemist. It looks like it could fill a role in a party that already has a dedicated spellcaster well, but shouldn't take the place of a dedicated spellcaster. Is there anythign that prevents him from firing his bombs from a catapult?
The Inquisitor, to me, screams "Witch Hunter" from Warhammer Age of Reckoning, just using bows in stead of pistols. As I was reading how the judgments work, it seems as this is exactly what was intended, as the class from that game has a similar mechanic. That having been said, I really like this class as is, and as I enjoyed playing a Witch Hunter in WAR, it looks as I'll thoroughly enjoy playing an Inquisitor as well.
Good work, Mr. Bulman.
P.S.> I think adding light martial weapons to its weapons list wouldn't hurt.
|
|
Last night I played a Level 8 Alchemist in a party that includes 4 other 8th level characters. There is no Cleric. Combat encounters were against A) 2 Bullettes, and B) About 20 sahaugin with a Captain. We defeated both encounters handily.
Were any of the powers or special abilities too good or not good enough?
At no time did I have any urge to use a mutagen. At 8th level, the negatives of doing so far outweigh the benefits, especially since I carry an Amulet of Natural Armor +2, which is effective all the time, without the loss of Charisma. I don't think you're going to like my suggestion regarding Mutagens (later on), but I'll posit one anyway.
Are the powers and abilities clear in their presentation and language?
Yes, but I would like to see the compatibility of Bombs with feats like Far Shot and Point Blank shot called out. I concluded that bomb use qualifies for both these Feats, but doing so took a fair amount of time. And, I suppose, I might have been wrong.
Do they function they way they are intended and if not, what are the ramifications?
I believe that the class does function as intended.
I do believe that there are a few changes that would make the class more enjoyable and/or more in line with, for example, an 8th level Wizard (which is the only other 8th level character I've played to date in PFRPG).
1) I believe, as do some others, that Alchemists should be permitted to Brew potions, and be better at it than wizards or sorcerors. Either making the potions function as CL+1, or allowing the Alkie to brew potions of higher than 3rd level (perhaps with feats).... I do think that they should only be able to Brew Potions that are on their Extracts Known list, and that they should (of course) incur standard material costs for doing so.
2) I believe that you should completely scrap the mutagen idea. I understand the "Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde" concept, but forcing every Alkie down that avenue does nothing for flavor IMHO, and as I mentioned the ability is not strong enough at mid/high levels to warrant use. Some alternatives to scrapping it: a) Make it like the Ranger Path Feature, allowing Alkies to develop Mutagens or gain additional Extract Formulae Known as an alternative. Or, b) As some have suggested, make the Mutagen more scalable. Others have put a lot of thought into this so I won't, but I would suggest a minimum of +3 Natural Armor at 8th level, so as to demonstrate an improvement over what is really a rather common magical item at that level. Or, c) As a), but give the choice between Mutagens or Brew Potion as a class feature as described in #1 above.
3) Depending on what is done with #2 above, I really think it's necessary to increase the amount of Extracts Known. It is unclear to me what the balance issues are in limiting the selection so severely. The Formulae are defensive/utilitarian in nature almost entirely and as such seem unlikely to wildly imbalance combat if a wider range of them is available to prepare. I feel that this would put the Alkie more in line with the Wizard/Sorceror/Cleric classes.
The class is enjoyable as-is, but I simply found that I was unable to mold it to my own tastes, as can be done with virtually every other class. Hopefully the points above will serve as food for thought.
Please note: I have no problem with the frequency of Discoveries. They are very strong, especially the ones that require a certain amount of previous discoveries, and have direct combat impact more often than not. Any increase in the frequency of Discoveries would be exponentially likely to disrupt combat balance and promote power creep.
All IMHO, of course. And cheers, Jason, you're writing a great game. Thanks for all you do.
Ultimately they aren't going to use the crossbow often because the crossbow's rate of fire puts crossbow wielders one feat behind archers in every feat tree (taking rapid reload). If the class got rapid reload as a bonus feat instead of longbow proficiency then it would make a huge difference.
Actually, re-printing that "Crossbow Mastery" (and making it a Bonus Feat) could be pretty viable here...
(As well as making Crossbows viable (=Full Attack) for EVERY player who's willing to take the Feat.)
At no time did I have any urge to use a mutagen. At 8th level, the negatives of doing so far outweigh the benefits, especially since I carry an Amulet of Natural Armor +2, which is effective all the time, without the loss of Charisma. I don't think you're going to like my suggestion regarding Mutagens (later on), but I'll posit one anyway.
I don't have my book here, but doesn't the amulet add an enhancement bonus to Nat armor, so they would stack?
Why does the Alchemist get Identify if he can't identify magical ideas due to not having detect magic?
I don't have my book here, but doesn't the amulet add an enhancement bonus to Nat armor, so they would stack?
I've always thought that the amulet didn't stack with normal natural armor. Maybe it does actually enhance it like the enhancement bonus on a shield boosts the shields AC.